Best program for learning star movements?

Zonark

Well-known member
Hello, I downloaded a program called Stellarium eager to learn the constellations and, well, it puts them all in the right place but I look on astrology sites like astro.com and it says the Sun is in Leo when it's clearly right in the center of Cancer according to this program and that the Moon is in Gemini when it is clearly right in the middle of Taurus conjuncting Aldebaran.

What gives?
 

Zonark

Well-known member
I'm looking at the stars right now with my eyeballs... the planets and stars are not in the constellations astro.com is saying they are. They're consistently off by about a whole sign for each object. :pouty:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'm looking at the stars right now with my eyeballs... the planets and stars are not in the constellations astro.com is saying they are. They're consistently off by about a whole sign for each object. :pouty:
There is an approximately 24 degree difference between the location of the Moon in the eye of Aldebaran as observed with naked eye viewing and the location of the Moon as given on astro.com Tropical charts.

For those who want to create a chart on astro.com that shows the actual location of the Moon as viewed by with naked eye viewing in the skies then go to astro.com's EXTENDED CHART SELECTION PAGE and choose the option 'Sidereal' and then Lahiri ayanama or Fagan Bradley whichever you prefer.

Tropical astrology and Sidereal astrology are simply different ways of measuring the yearly journey of the Earth around the Sun - i.e. one orbit of the Earth around the Sun = One Solar Year :smile:

My signature provides a video link to an excellent animation EARTH'S MOTION AROUND THE SUN NOT AS SIMPLE AS I THOUGHT explaining the differences between these two methods of measuring One Solar Year - here's the link for those who have not viewed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related
 

Zonark

Well-known member
There is an approximately 24 degree difference between the location of the Moon in the eye of Aldebaran as observed with naked eye viewing and the location of the Moon as given on astro.com Tropical charts.

For those who want to create a chart on astro.com that shows the actual location of the Moon as viewed by with naked eye viewing in the skies then go to astro.com's EXTENDED CHART SELECTION PAGE and choose the option 'Sidereal' and then Lahiri ayanama or Fagan Bradley whichever you prefer.

Tropical astrology and Sidereal astrology are simply different ways of measuring the yearly journey of the Earth around the Sun - i.e. one orbit of the Earth around the Sun = One Solar Year :smile:

My signature provides a video link to an excellent animation EARTH'S MOTION AROUND THE SUN NOT AS SIMPLE AS I THOUGHT explaining the differences between these two methods of measuring One Solar Year - here's the link for those who have not viewed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related

You misunderstand what I meant by saying I was seeing it with my own eyes but disregard this post, I am literally so ignorant of astrology I didn't realize Tropical doesn't even correspond to the actual night sky the entire time I've been reading these forums.

Oops.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You misunderstand what I meant by saying I was seeing it with my own eyes but disregard this post, I am literally so ignorant of astrology I didn't realize Tropical doesn't even correspond to the actual night sky the entire time I've been reading these forums.

Oops
.
I understood that's what you meant Zonark - I have Stellarium as well - it's a very useful program and free :smile:

- that's why I posted a link to that explanation. It's a great way to understand the differences between Tropical and Sidereal.

Of course, as you have said, many do not even know or realise that there is a difference between the location of planets in the night sky and the location of planets in a Tropical astrological chart.

I was just explaining that in contrast, a Sidereal natal chart DOES correspond to the actual night sky

And watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related explains why Sidereal DOES correspond to the actual night sky BUT Tropical does not- that's all

 

Zonark

Well-known member
I understood that's what you meant Zonark - I have Stellarium as well - it's a very useful program and free :smile:

- that's why I posted a link to that explanation. It's a great way to understand the differences between Tropical and Sidereal.

Of course, as you have said, many do not even know or realise that there is a difference between the location of planets in the night sky and the location of planets in a Tropical astrological chart.

I was just explaining that in contrast, a Sidereal natal chart DOES correspond to the actual night sky

And watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related explains why Sidereal DOES correspond to the actual night sky BUT Tropical does not- that's all


Oh. Sigh where is my mind today. Thanks JUPITERASC.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
You misunderstand what I meant by saying I was seeing it with my own eyes but disregard this post, I am literally so ignorant of astrology I didn't realize Tropical doesn't even correspond to the actual night sky the entire time I've been reading these forums.

Oops.

Zonark,

Please don't be unkind to yourself.

We all experience not knowing/ignorance until we know it!!--all the time!:smile:

Cheers, and it's a pretty cool realization you have made, no?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh. Sigh where is my mind today. Thanks JUPITERASC.
Your mind is where it's best placed to be Zonark - your mind is simply questioning and verifying - and that's normal JMO :smile:

tsmall has a very accurate/reliable time of birth and is well aware of her ascendant sign - and also enjoys observing the night skies. One day while observing the visible planets in the night sky realization dawned that Moon/planets visible to her were clearly 'out of sync' with Tropical - just as you have done - so she questioned why her sidereal natal chart chimes with the actual locations in the night skies BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY for the same time of birth her Tropical ascendant sign is 'out of sync' - so some time ago opened a thread discussion that explores the very reasonable question: What sign was "actually" breaking the horizon at the time of my birth? http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41281
 

Mandy

Well-known member
There is an approximately 24 degree difference between the location of the Moon in the eye of Aldebaran as observed with naked eye viewing and the location of the Moon as given on astro.com Tropical charts.

For those who want to create a chart on astro.com that shows the actual location of the Moon as viewed by with naked eye viewing in the skies then go to astro.com's EXTENDED CHART SELECTION PAGE and choose the option 'Sidereal' and then Lahiri ayanama or Fagan Bradley whichever you prefer.

Tropical astrology and Sidereal astrology are simply different ways of measuring the yearly journey of the Earth around the Sun - i.e. one orbit of the Earth around the Sun = One Solar Year :smile:

My signature provides a video link to an excellent animation EARTH'S MOTION AROUND THE SUN NOT AS SIMPLE AS I THOUGHT explaining the differences between these two methods of measuring One Solar Year - here's the link for those who have not viewed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related

That link is amazing. I never knew that. Is that how/why people can form those pretty drawings, sacred geometry?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
That link is amazing. I never knew that. Is that how/why people can form those pretty drawings, sacred geometry?
In ancient times when most people thought the universe was a living being it was "The Norm" to imagine that the tiny points of light visible in the night sky were 'grouped' into separate, distinct sets of 'Images'.

These 'Images' were made up of separate stars which - in the opinion of the ancient people of this planet - seemed to be grouped together.

Thousands of years ago, on various parts of the planet Earth, different cultures imaginatively 'connected the dots' of the tiny points of light that they thought were close to each other and personified them as 'Mythical Beings' and narrated stories about the lives of these Mythical Beings.
The Mythical Beings and the stories of their lives varied from culture to culture. Different cultures imagined different images in the patterns of the stars of the night sky. It's possible that the ancient people of this planet did not know that these tiny points of light were hundreds - perhaps even thousands - of light years distant from each other. :smile:


QUOTE

'....Former constellations are constellations that are no longer recognized by the International Astronomical Union for various reasons. Many of these constellations existed for long periods of time, even centuries in many cases, which means they still have a large historical value and can be found on older star charts....'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_constellations



MORE INFORMATION ON THE CONSTELLATIONS AT
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/astro/...ation.faq.html



The oldest description of the constellations as we know them comes from a poem called Phaenomena written by Greek Aratus 270 B.C. it is clear from the poem that the constellations mentioned originated long before Aratus' time. Some detective work reveals a plausible origin. Firstly, Aratus' constellations excluded any near the south celestial pole because that was always below the horizon of the ancient constellation-makers. From the size of this uncharted area of the sky, we can determine that the people responsible for the original constellations lived near a latitude of 36° north which is south of Greece and north of Egypt but similar to the latitude of the ancient Babylonians and Sumerians.



A "wobble" of the Earth's axis of rotation, means the position of the celestial poles changes slowly with time - known as precession.


precession.jpg


The constellation-free zone is not centered exactly on the south celestial pole, instead the uncharted area is centered on the place in the sky where the south celestial pole would have been around the year 2000 B.C. This date matches the time of the Babylonians and Sumerians. So it seems likely that the Greek constellations originated with the Sumerians and Babylonians.

From there, knowledge of the constellations somehow made its way to Egypt - perhaps through the Minoans on Crete who had contact with the Babylonians and settled in Egypt after an explosive volcanic eruption destroyed their civilization, and from there early Greek scholars first heard about the constellations and wrote about them.


When most ancient cultures looked at the night sky they saw 'pictures' aka 'Images' in the stars. The earliest known efforts to catalogue the stars date to cuneiform texts (i.e. Sumerian/Babylonian/Assyrian texts and artefacts)and artefacts dating back roughly 6000 years. These remnants, found in the valley of the Euphrates River, suggest that the ancients observing the heavens saw the lion, the bull, and the scorpion in the stars.


British Museum web page regarding the origins of writing in Mesopotamia http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/writing/story/sto_set.html
 

Zonark

Well-known member
That link is amazing. I never knew that. Is that how/why people can form those pretty drawings, sacred geometry?

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the Earth making those ellipses too, looked like a big flower :joyful:
 

Zonark

Well-known member
Your mind is where it's best placed to be Zonark - your mind is simply questioning and verifying - and that's normal JMO :smile:

tsmall has a very accurate/reliable time of birth and is well aware of her ascendant sign - and also enjoys observing the night skies. One day while observing the visible planets in the night sky realization dawned that Moon/planets visible to her were clearly 'out of sync' with Tropical - just as you have done - so she questioned why her sidereal natal chart chimes with the actual locations in the night skies BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY for the same time of birth her Tropical ascendant sign is 'out of sync' - so some time ago opened a thread discussion that explores the very reasonable question: What sign was "actually" breaking the horizon at the time of my birth? http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41281

Aha very interesting! Wouldn't it make sense though that if the planet positions are out of place the Ascendant would be as well? I guess I don't understand this part; "BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY for the same time of birth her Tropical ascendant sign is 'out of sync'"

To explain my confusion in concrete terms, take my chart. In Tropical my Ascendant is in Capricorn. In Sidereal it switches to Sagittarius. Wouldn't this switch to Sidereal have been the answer to her question, the question being "if Tropical is not lining up with the constellations, my ascendant must be in the wrong sign, which sign is it in?"

Very informative thread by the way.

 

Zonark

Well-known member
Zonark,

Please don't be unkind to yourself.

We all experience not knowing/ignorance until we know it!!--all the time!:smile:

Cheers, and it's a pretty cool realization you have made, no?

Thank you IleneK :smile:

I attribute being so hard on myself to a 1st house Saturn haha. It is a pretty cool realization. I'm excited to stargaze now.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
That's the first thing I thought when I saw the Earth making those ellipses too, looked like a big flower :joyful:
PATTERN OF the VENUS CYCLE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aocKBYyjM0 :smile:


'…...Created in MicroStation http://www.Bentley.com this clip was made to mark the recent conjunction of planets Venus, Jupiter and Mercury. It shows a single planet's (Venus) motion as observed from the Earth.

First, the idealized or 'synchronized' motion with Earth's year shortened by about 2 hours 42 minutes.

This gives 13 orbits of Venus in 8 years, giving a CLOSED Epicyclic pattern repeating every 8 years.

Then the actual periods are used with alter the pattern that would take a very long time to close (and hence repeat). Finally the simple arithmetical explanation of LCM (Least Common Multiple) underlying the rarity of astronomical phenomenon is given....'
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Aha very interesting! Wouldn't it make sense though that if the planet positions are out of place the Ascendant would be as well? I guess I don't understand this part; "BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY for the same time of birth her Tropical ascendant sign is 'out of sync'"

To explain my confusion in concrete terms, take my chart.

In Tropical my Ascendant is in Capricorn. In Sidereal it switches to Sagittarius. Wouldn't this switch to Sidereal have been the answer to her question, the question being "if Tropical is not lining up with the constellations, my ascendant must be in the wrong sign, which sign is it in?"

Very informative thread by the way.

One may deduce from watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related that: :smile:

Sidereal astrologers demarcate using the constellations

and

Tropical astrologers demarcate by using the signs



The device currently described as 'The Tropical Zodiac' was originally used by astronomers as a calendar - and NOT 'a Tropical zodiac' - from which the first day of Spring (or Vernal Equinox) was inferred - the twelve 30[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] demarcations of which thereafter were intended as simply demarcations of the twelve months of the year -and NOT intended to be construed as 'star signs of The Tropical zodiac'.



“History of the Zodiac” originally a 2004 Ph.D. thesis now in book form is an in-depth exploration of the origins of the Babylonian Zodiac and its location in the ecliptic: the book reveals that the division of the ecliptic into tropical astrological signs was originally a derivation of Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.); "...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months commencing with the vernal equinox, in which each solar (tropical) month is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." ....Dr. Robert Powell 2007
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Zodiac-Robert-Powell/dp/1597311529


The key point being that the signs of the original sidereal zodiac,
each thirty degrees long, coincide closely with the twelve astronomical constellations of the same name, whereas the signs of the tropical zodiac, since they are defined in relation to the vernal point, now have no direct relationship to the corresponding zodiacal constellations, owing to the precession of the equinoxes.



In other words, the so-called, allegedly 'Fixed Unmoving Aries Point of the Tropical “Zodiac''' is a mathematical abstraction, merely a convenient artificial construct arbitrarily used as an intended anchor designed to nullify the obvious inconsistencies of the precessing/regressing/drifting Vernal Point.


0º Aries is a hypothetical anchor descriptive of the moment when - due to the tilt of Earth's axis in relation to Earth's orbit of the Sun - the Sun appears to cross the Equator at the Vernal Equinox which is directly opposite
another Equinox point when the Sun also appears to cross the Equator

bio: Robert A. Powell born Reading, England,1947 graduated in mathematics at Sussex university 1968, and awarded a Master's degree in statistics there 1969. 1969 to 1976 he lectured in mathematics & statistics in the Department of Computing and Cybernetics at Brighton Polytechnic. 1971 he was elected Fellow of the Royal Statistical Society. From its inception in 1971 he was a tutor in mathematics for the Open University, until 1974. He left Brighton Polytechnic in 1976 in order to complete his research on the history of the zodiac & during 1976-77 Robert A. Powell was visiting lecturer in astronomy and the history of astronomy at Emerson College, England and also researched astronomical chronology at the Mathematisch- Physikalisches Institut, Dornach, near Basel, Switzerland.)

 
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