How to get away from Karma

[retinoid]

Prominent are you really that different than the dinosaurs?...lol it is funny but are you? Same wants, needs, functions!

[Prominent]

Originally Posted by retinoid

No not really Prominent. Just the masks...just as if you go to China, is it really that different than Iowa or NYC?...deep down everything is the same. It feels and smells the same. Same themes, perhaps different words explaining them.

Everything isn't the same when you see them differently.
Nothing can be something if you beckon it. What is changing is anything that can be whether unaware or here.

[Prominent]

Originally Posted by retinoid

Prominent are you really that different than the dinosaurs?...lol it is funny but are you? Same wants, needs, functions!

I am different because I'm not afraid of anything that isn't me because I know how to not be me. You want to be yourself, but you are refusing to see nothing as that which you can see.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by retinoid

Jupiterasc, you are speaking philosophically. Yes a picture of a flower outlasts the real flower, but even the picture 'decays' and will be dust. Logically a picture outlasts a flower due to the life of each object. A rock outlasts a human but it doesn't mean a rock is more or less real just because it will be around longer

. It appears the meaning of the comment I wrote has been misunderstood/misinterpreted because it was not intended as a philosophical statement retinoid - on the contrary, it is self-evident that the picture remains perhaps for many thousands of years...

and meanwhile, where exactly is the painter?

Originally Posted by retinoid

I am speaking of the fact that the picture is purely a thought form (a painting)...someone has to consciously think about the image and paint it. So the painting or picture is totally based off something else. But it isn't that object. It doesn't smell like it or doesn't act like it or doesn't have the complexity of it. But it helps others realize the object.

fwiw IMO, since the picture the painter painted is composed of paint, canvas and so on and so forth, then clearly the picture cannot be described as 'purely' 'a thought form'

Originally Posted by retinoid

..........This is why I feel the need to 'escape'...to look towards the sun outside of the cave. I am opened to suggestions of course as my (mind) does not have all the answers

So - is the great 'karmic escape' progressing well then?

Originally Posted by retinoid

Prominent are you really that different than the dinosaurs?

Fwiw, IMO only a dinosaur could satisfactorily answer this question

Originally Posted by retinoid

...lol it is funny but are you? Same wants, needs, functions!

I assume you are referring to the obvious fact that dinosaurs have the same need to read books and make online posts on our forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh4zvQfDhi0

[aquarius7000]

Hello again,

Originally Posted by retinoid

Time purely exists because things that change exist. If there was 'nothing' then time would cease to exist. If nothing 'changed' then there would be no time. Time is dependent not independent. Just like if you are traveling at the speed of light, time doesn't exist.

Well, time is change. Even if we are not to measure time as in 11:30 am or pm, it would exist. It is the AM and PM that are the change. Meaning, change is simply the rising of the sun and its setting. That sets life into motion. When motion is there, there is automatically change. Hence, even if we were travelling at the speed of light, time will exist because the sun will always rise and set in its constant cycle.

Retinoid, I also think that we may feel that change does not really happen because the very word 'change' means inconstancy. However, in reverse, we can say that time or change is so constant (as a set law) that we may feel change does not really happen.

If, however, change were not to happen, that would mean a standstill, motionlessness, ceasing to exist. That is why time is change, and change is motion and vice versa. Every breath we take, we are moving forward in time (from one sunrise to another), the body is aging = change.


AQ7

[Prominent]

What is motion though, you haven't answered that, because an immobile object can be moving. So essentially, you could be moving and could not be moving.

[Kannon]

Originally Posted by retinoid

Karma is basically a domino effect.

It is the summation of what we did, how we react, our intentions and creates reality based on this. It is the web of the physical realm.

The only way karma works is through the body and the mind. If you do not identify with either body or mind, then you will not be controlled by karma...

For instance, some people are destined to have parental issues. Horrible fights with domineering, mean parents that won't let go of their grip. If you continue to fight or decide to hate them, then karma is at work. If you, perhaps are able to find a compassionate way out of it and decide not to fight any longer and not hate them but are compassionate toward them for being a lost person (doesn't mean you have to love them as a parent which is also MIND)...then you break Karma's hold on putting you in a horrible situation where a parent's relationship with you
suffocates you.

If you do not like where your life is right now, do you see that a lot of the bad choices you made were totally from the MIND? You may have not tried hard in school due to depression about a relationship or not having this or that or clinging to the past so you did poorly in school. This is KARMA...but it works through the mind.

I think you've got some very insightful points here.

Karma is not an immutable, singular 'law' but a dynamic in which there are never-ending consequences of 'good' or 'bad' as long as you continue engaging it. Liken it to the 'action' of a see-saw. If you get off it (or never get on) there is simply no back & forth to keep you there.

The key to understanding it is in moving from a linear notion of balance, that of the dualistic balancing act of opposites (as seen in our see-saw analogy) ... to a hub analogy demonstrating centeredness. A wheel can really take you places but all it does is create revolution around its own localized center. To be fully centered in our True Nature means we do not allow ego to entice us into the dualistic see-saw, which is essentially a comparison/competition in which we are referencing a point apparently outside ourselves.

The existential pointlessness of the dualistic dynamic between fixed opposites is directly addressed in the Tao te Ching, but is often perceived by many readers as pointing to a pointless existence of no personal values. Not so. It simply leaves you with nothing but your own Nature as perfectly acceptable and satisfactory, being part of the Nature of the Singular Whole. It removes the veil of consciousness that obscures the view of the Absolute Unity of all 'individual' things as simply working parts of a singular whole.

Once we move into a place of balance determined by an inner centerpoint (which ironically can only happen in this quantum multi-verse when we accept that we individually are 'not all here' but Self is multi-/inter-dimensional) rather than any notion of a 'fixed' outer reference point, then we can actually discover transcendence, which is not to 'escape' karma or any 'law' but to rise above it.

Karma is a cross-lifetime dynamic that has no meaning in terms of its measure or quality relevant to a particular person until a lifetime is completed and a reckoning made. What we refer to as someone's karma is actually the accumulated indebtendness to others or their indebtedness to us (always a mixed bag). It is to end a lifetime with unfinished business, in mid-swing of the see-saw which must pick up where it left off next lifetime.

The entire point is that you can walk away from this dynamic. But you must maintain balance. The moment we let ego trick us into competition/comparison with our fellow body parts in the Multi-verse, we step back into the karmic dynamic. Contemplating any notion of superiority over others puts us right back into it the moment we act upon those thoughts.

The reason that many people cannot accept this karma as dynamic rather than immutable, overriding law that has us captured is that they have never experienced the difference for personal comparison or known someone who had. Honestly, I think Jesus addressed this better than anyone, since in Hebrew culture law and morality was taken to its extreme and had to be answered. His response was that it is Love that fulfills all laws simultaneously. The point is not the law (which allows ego measurements of some as superior others), but Love. Laws give us an outward measure for reasonable limits in case individuals in society are not in touch enough with their own nature. Love IS our inner Nature, and exudes every good thing as is appropriate to any given situation. If healing is needed, then healing is done, regardless of what 'law' says.

The notion of 'karma' is often used as a nebulous explanation for why something happened to a person. True empowerment cannot be achieved in this way.

"Bad" karma happens when we choose power over love.
"Good" karma happens when we choose love over power.
This is the very sum of the karmic dynamic in terms of the real feeling aspect of our nature. If you believe love makes you vulnerable then you are disempowered and living in the karmic dynamic. "Love=weakness" = karma.

Karmic struggles are not needed when we understand and feel the unity of Love & Power and struggle for neither, but simply settle into the pure Nature of our own Unified existence. If you are tired of being stuck, if you feel a lack of purpose or that you are lost, consider simply telling the Universe that you want to be freed from your karmic dynamic to move on to be centered in Unconditional Love. Give it time. This is not a 'get out of jail free' card. When you have finished travelling the road of karma, you are no longer subject to its speed limits.

[Prominent]

Originally Posted by Kannon

When you have finished travelling the road of karma, you are no longer subject to its speed limits.

That is wrong.

[JUPITERASC]

fwiw IMO there is frequently a misunderstanding of what is meant by the word karma

48 DEFINITION OF THE MEANING OF THE WORD 'KARMA' SOURCED FROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

QUOTE:
“Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म: [ˈkərmə] Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of 'action' or 'deed', understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in the Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh religions”

SO

karma = action or deed

fwiw IMO 'actions' aka 'karmas' are not intrinsically necessarily 'good' or 'bad' - just simply 'actions' aka 'karmas'


However, CONSEQUENCES OF ACTIONS are frequently experienced as either 'preferable' or 'non-preferable'

SINCE 'karmas' aka 'actions' inevitably have consequences, THEN the law that states that 'karmas' aka 'actions' inevitably have consequences is understandably considered immutable.

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by Prominent

I am different because I'm not afraid of anything that isn't me because I know how to not be me. You want to be yourself, but you are refusing to see nothing as that which you can see.

Prominent we can be whoever we want to be. Just imagine yourself as whatever you want and your mind will transfer. Like today, I decided I needed to channel a sassy ghetto hooker and it was fun everyone really responded well

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by Kannon

Karmic struggles are not needed when we understand and feel the unity of Love & Power and struggle for neither, but simply settle into the pure Nature of our own Unified existence. If you are tired of being stuck, if you feel a lack of purpose or that you are lost, consider simply telling the Universe that you want to be freed from your karmic dynamic to move on to be centered in Unconditional Love. Give it time. This is not a 'get out of jail free' card. When you have finished travelling the road of karma, you are no longer subject to its speed limits.

I agree the best way to create an inner environment where you will not create negative karma for yourself is to be COMPASSIONATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'With kindness you give to another, with compassion there is no other'
-QABALLAH

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Kannon

....When you have finished travelling the road of karma, you are no longer subject to its speed limits.

Ignoring speed limits is obviously:

(1) foolish

(2) selfish

(3) puts others at risk

(4) involves consequences aka 'karmas'

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

So who are you channeling now and are people responding well?

I am channeling my mind, because it never understands what you are trying to say. Instead of saying, you speak in riddles and go around in circles with other people's thoughts. SAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE OR THINK stop speaking in allusions.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by retinoid

I am channeling my mind, because it never understands what you are trying to say. Instead of saying, you speak in riddles and go around in circles with other people's thoughts. SAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE OR THINK stop speaking in allusions.

I made my opinion clear when I said:

Fwiw IMO karma is an immutable, impersonal law from which none of us can 'escape' because we necessarily inevitably experience the consequences/results of our actions – whether those actions are/were prompted by thoughts of the mind/the emotions.

However, what we CAN do is - NOT create the causes of unhappiness and instead CREATE THE CAUSES OF HAPPINESS

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

I made my opinion clear when I said:

Fwiw IMO karma is an immutable, impersonal law from which none of us can 'escape' because we necessarily inevitably experience the consequences/results of our actions – whether those actions are/were prompted by thoughts of the mind/the emotions.

However, what we CAN do is - NOT create the causes of unhappiness and instead CREATE THE CAUSES OF HAPPINESS

yes very good like this. Now just make it common policy.

[Prominent]

I would not be happy in pure happiness, so you're hurtful by saying that.

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by Prominent

I would not be happy in pure happiness, so you're hurtful by saying that.

You may like it

[Prominent]

Originally Posted by retinoid

You may like it

I wouldn't be able to like it because I wouldn't recognize what liking it is. You can't sense something if it doesn't have a background to it.
Pure happiness is impossible. To suggest it is hurtful to me because it would destroy a part of yourself.

[Prominent]

the fact that you convey yourself as oblivious to this is even more hurtful though.

[Prominent]

Why are you suggesting to attain something you can't then? Why would you intentionally lie to me?

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Kannon

Karma is not an immutable, singular 'law' but a dynamic in which there are never-ending consequences of 'good' or 'bad' as long as you continue engaging it. Liken it to the 'action' of a see-saw. If you get off it (or never get on) there is simply no back & forth to keep you there.

Which also begs the question, how and or why did we get on the see-saw in the first place. It seems to me that we cannot consider karma without considering why we exist. And if we really examine it, we will find that there is more than a reason, but a necessity for both.

Originally Posted by Kannon

The key to understanding it is in moving from a linear notion of balance, that of the dualistic balancing act of opposites (as seen in our see-saw analogy) ... to a hub analogy demonstrating centeredness. A wheel can really take you places but all it does is create revolution around its own localized center. To be fully centered in our True Nature means we do not allow ego to entice us into the dualistic see-saw, which is essentially a comparison/competition in which we are referencing a point apparently outside ourselves.

Are you familiar with Stephen King's Dark Tower series? I only ask because this part reminds me of an overriding theme..."Ka is like a wheel." Ka of course referring to karma, but also to the notion that all is connected. The wheel spins around, but will always come back to the same place. You can ride the spokes and explore the different directions, in whichever dimension you prefer, but in the end there needs to be a reckoning, because after all, it's your wheel. What some people seem to forget is that if it's yours, you own it, and you probably built it yourself.

Originally Posted by Kannon

The existential pointlessness of the dualistic dynamic between fixed opposites is directly addressed in the Tao te Ching, but is often perceived by many readers as pointing to a pointless existence of no personal values. Not so. It simply leaves you with nothing but your own Nature as perfectly acceptable and satisfactory, being part of the Nature of the Singular Whole. It removes the veil of consciousness that obscures the view of the Absolute Unity of all 'individual' things as simply working parts of a singular whole.

Which can be boiled down to the divine spark that is in all of us, and trying to find it's way back to the source of light. If we take the existential path, then it is easy to fall into the morass that is created by the idea that all is pointless. It also makes it alluring to want to try to outrun, or "get away" (ie escape) our karma by postulating that it's all an illusion anyway. (Do you want the red pill, Neo, or the blue one?)

Originally Posted by Kannon

Once we move into a place of balance determined by an inner centerpoint (which ironically can only happen in this quantum multi-verse when we accept that we individually are 'not all here' but Self is multi-/inter-dimensional) rather than any notion of a 'fixed' outer reference point, then we can actually discover transcendence, which is not to 'escape' karma or any 'law' but to rise above it.

And for those of us in the cheap seats, this means understanding that the only way to "rise above" it isn't by trying to escape, or get away from it, but by doing the best we can with what we have. It doesn't mean trying to separate onself from the material world, because if we truly do that we need to separate ourselves from emotions that come with it. Who really wants to ignore what we love? Who actually can? What of passion, and desire? Not in the physical sense, but in the emotional? We were given these tools for a reason, and to try to transcend, or disolve, or disassociate from them is to leave behind the divine spark with which we want to connect. You cannot run away from your karma without running away from everything that you love, and that ties you to the Universe.

Originally Posted by Kannon

Karma is a cross-lifetime dynamic that has no meaning in terms of its measure or quality relevant to a particular person until a lifetime is completed and a reckoning made. What we refer to as someone's karma is actually the accumulated indebtendness to others or their indebtedness to us (always a mixed bag). It is to end a lifetime with unfinished business, in mid-swing of the see-saw which must pick up where it left off next lifetime.

And following that logic, woudn't it seem that by trying to walk away from it we are trying to renig on the promise that our life exemplifies? If you were born of a womb, you came for a reason. Good, bad, or in between, there are lessons to be learned, and debt to be both paid and accrued. There is a purpose for our existance, and question it though we will, the purpose does not go away.

Originally Posted by Kannon

The entire point is that you can walk away from this dynamic. But you must maintain balance. The moment we let ego trick us into competition/comparison with our fellow body parts in the Multi-verse, we step back into the karmic dynamic. Contemplating any notion of superiority over others puts us right back into it the moment we act upon those thoughts.

The reason that many people cannot accept this karma as dynamic rather than immutable, overriding law that has us captured is that they have never experienced the difference for personal comparison or known someone who had. Honestly, I think Jesus addressed this better than anyone, since in Hebrew culture law and morality was taken to its extreme and had to be answered. His response was that it is Love that fulfills all laws simultaneously. The point is not the law (which allows ego measurements of some as superior others), but Love. Laws give us an outward measure for reasonable limits in case individuals in society are not in touch enough with their own nature. Love IS our inner Nature, and exudes every good thing as is appropriate to any given situation. If healing is needed, then healing is done, regardless of what 'law' says.

God is Love. 1 John, 4:8

Originally Posted by Kannon

The notion of 'karma' is often used as a nebulous explanation for why something happened to a person. True empowerment cannot be achieved in this way.

"Bad" karma happens when we choose power over love.
"Good" karma happens when we choose love over power.
This is the very sum of the karmic dynamic in terms of the real feeling aspect of our nature. If you believe love makes you vulnerable then you are disempowered and living in the karmic dynamic. "Love=weakness" = karma.

Karmic struggles are not needed when we understand and feel the unity of Love & Power and struggle for neither, but simply settle into the pure Nature of our own Unified existence. If you are tired of being stuck, if you feel a lack of purpose or that you are lost, consider simply telling the Universe that you want to be freed from your karmic dynamic to move on to be centered in Unconditional Love. Give it time. This is not a 'get out of jail free' card. When you have finished travelling the road of karma, you are no longer subject to its speed limits.

Jonah tried to escape his karma, and look what happened to him. No matter what God (because after all, God = Truth = Universe) you belive in, even Moses gave us an example. Throw down the rod (or staff, or stuff of life that challenges you) to God/Truth/Love/Universe, and let him pick it up for you. Whatever you get will be changed. But in the end, it will still be your karma. As a good friend here once reminded me,

"Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

[Sunny]

[qote]
whether those actions are/were prompted by thoughts of the mind/the emotions.
[/quote]

Yes, and that is all.
Actions are going and the effects from them are coming, only when? we cannot know it. But we can see from what kind of mental structure our actions are done, therefore we can have an influence for our karma if we understand our mental conditions and to change this. And therefore astrology is so helpful because it shows to us what isn't so easy to see from ourselves.
In this point of view we understand that there is nothing to avoid, but much to do.

[Kannon]

So if karma is immutable law who/what is the law giver?

[retinoid]

Originally Posted by Sunny

Yes, and that is all.
Actions are going and the effects from them are coming, only when? we cannot know it. But we can see from what kind of mental structure our actions are done, therefore we can have an influence for our karma if we understand our mental conditions and to change this. And therefore astrology is so helpful because it shows to us what isn't so easy to see from ourselves.
In this point of view we understand that there is nothing to avoid, but much to do.

Very good way of putting it SUNNY.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Kannon

So if karma is immutable law who/what is the law giver?

'karma' = 'action'

for greater clarity, let's rephrase your question

“So if action is immutable law who/what is the law giver”?

The 'law' clearly is, that actions have consequences

the following QUOTE is sourced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma :
“Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म: [ˈkərmə] Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of 'action' or 'deed', understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in the Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh religions”