which planet has more impact: saturn or pluto?

[pameta]

Hello everybody ,

right now I`m suffering a bad saturn transit over my natal sun/pluto conjunction in first house in square to my moon in fourth. So much disappointment and disturbing feelings, I cannot switch off my thoughts and moods and all of this at least for one year. All my life before was so fiery but this time is the "exaltation" .
So I`m trying to interpret my chart in order to get answers, but I`m curious about weighting of the planetary principles in radix (see my chart in uploaded file). Saturn is known as a "bad" planet bringing depressions and obstacles to the chart owner and my saturn is directly on ascendant and ruler of moon. Pluto is conjuncting sun and squares moon natally, rules my mercury and uranus.
Where do my steady feelings of discomfort rather originate, who is responsible for the crisis and is more potent in my chart saturn or pluto?
Which energies should I work out, it seems so contrary to me: change vs. conservation? Will I ever find my luck, or is it a karmic duty to get all of this? My natal ruler venus is seeking for harmony but doesn`t get it anyway...

Thank you for constructive contribution to find myself!

[Peregrine_Moon]

First of all, Saturn is not a "bad" planet. Saturn teaches us things we may not want to learn at the time, like discipline, perspective, how to be realistic, how to live within the constraints of time as it really is rather than being lost in our imaginations. Saturn's passage through our horoscopes brings us wisdom, over time, but wisdom comes at the price of struggle. If we didn't have Saturn, we would not learn these essential things. Of course we don't like it, but rebelling against Saturn holds us back.

Saturn's transit through your first and second houses is not a lot of fun because it forces you to question yourself, the way you feel about yourself, how you present yourself to the world, what you feel you're worth--and worthy of receiving--how you make your living, and so on. These are deeply personal things. The unfortunate thing about it all is that the time after your Saturn return can feel like a very heavy extension of the return for quite awhile because Saturn is in your first house.

I have Pluto conjunct my Sun, separated by only 51'. This a good example of what conjunctions really are: the merging of two planets. It's not really possible to separate Pluto from the Sun; it's never possible to separate two conjunct planets. However, because Pluto is involved, those of us with this conjunction are the least able to feel it or see how it affects us. Pluto is deeply deep, working where it can't be seen by us. We may feel that Pluto is dormant or inactive in us, but the people who know us well probably have very strong experiences of our Plutonic qualities.

Your feelings of depression, sadness and frustration are the product of Saturn's contact with the Sun-Pluto conjunction. This reverberates to your Capricorn Moon but, rather than inhibiting it, the Moon's reigning need to be an administrator, to organize and make things happen, is reinforced. The Moon may have prompted you to figure out what's going on in your first house so that you can make a plan to deal with it.

You asked which was stronger, Saturn or Pluto. In general terms, Pluto is stronger because it's a much slower-moving planet and its affects are longer, deeper and more radical than Saturn's. Saturn brings us correction. Pluto is dedicated to complete transformation. In your chart, Saturn's activity is triggering some of the darker qualities of Sun conj. Pluto, which, in turn, inspire you to have darker thoughts and to wonder about what you need to completely transform in yourself. However, this is not as long-lasting as Pluto's transit over a particular point would be.

While the Saturn transit is going on, you should be aware that Pluto is transiting your fourth house and will be demanding a deep, complete transformation of your sense of home and family, of protection, nourishment and support, and of your feelings or beliefs about your mortality (the fourth house is a house of endings and represents the end of our life). It may be that you had some significant changes in your relationship with one of your parents a couple of years ago. Pluto's transit through your fourth house will last for about 17-18 years or so--I'm just estimating, haven't checked it in the ephemeris--and will be one of your life's fundamental adjustments.

With your planets concentrated so heavily within five houses, there's a great intensity in your life. The grace in it is that your horoscope is grounded in Earth and the Earth planets are Cardinal, initiating activity. This is not the chart of someone who is a victim! Indeed, you have an intense need for social life and relationships with others. You will find your needs met in the world outside yourself.

As life goes on and you get older, things will relax for you in many ways. Pluto will move on in your chart. Saturn's second cycle is easier than the first one, too.

Have patience. Take a measured approach to your life. Your Sun always seeks balance and Pluto, in conjunction with it, will not tolerate being out of balance for long.

[gen6k]

saturn could be benefic or malefic, depending on angle and configuration.

its not a venus or jupiter, but if for example the sun is co-ruled by saturn then it would be inherent to a premise or surmise that the person can instill something with. saturn associated by triplicity, or also with aquarius in traditional astrology.

overall pluto has more psychological impact on the native, but saturn promotes more placid social changes.

if one takes in to account the nature of the person and saturn, one sees that even though something is responsible to them, they may not be taking responsibility, but feel responsible in their actions by not taking responsibility at the time.

[miquar]

Hi. To some extent you could think of Pluto as being the more powerful influence on who you fundamentally are and what your deepest needs and values are (Pluto in close hard aspect to the Sun and Moon). And you could think of Saturn as being the more powerful influence on your relationship to the world around you - the way in which you can most naturally and effectively make an impact on your immediate environment and the people in it (Saturn exactly rising).

It is of course a little more complicated because the Sun Pluto conjunction is in the first house and the Moon is in Saturn's sign. Ultimately you will need to form a healthy relationship with both of these planets to find peace. Potentially, you could find a profound peace which is not even on the radar for more superficial types, but the path to that place won't be especially easy.

The Saturn Pluto theme is repeated in a way by the placement of Mercury, which is semisquare Saturn and in Pluto's sign.

Saturn and Pluto have in common a strong need for self-determination, and a proportionately strong sensitivity to being under the control of circumstances or other people.

Saturn rising and Moon in Capricorn in the 4th, with Capricorn on the IC, all suggest that your immediate reactions to things will involve a certain restraint and methodical assessment of how to proceed. The Ascendant ruler being in Virgo adds to this, too. If this assessment is based on other peoples values, which you took on board as a defence against rejection and humiliation, then obviously the way you proceed will not be self-determined, but determined by those whose values you are using.

It would have been very very difficult for you not to take on the values of others to some extent. This is partly because it is in the nature of Saturn and Capricorn to adhere to a set of laws, and when we are young we swallow whole the laws imposed by others because we have not yet formed a sense of our own integrity and separateness. It is also partly because your Plutonian streak connects you with inherently destructive energies which would mean that if you were to simply follow your own gut feelings, it would be difficult for you to maintain the civilised interactions which Saturn, Capricorn, Libra and Virgo all need in order to feel safe.

As you say, there is a conflict between change and conservation in this chart, but it is possible for you to bring these energies together. Yours doesn't seem to be the path of the happy-go-lucky and naive individual, but rather an individual with a mission and with a tremendous depth of insight. It seems that you must learn when to yield to fate, but also to learn when self-doubt, lack of trust in life, and cynicism have caused you to accept defeat too soon.

Your chart suggests that from time to time you will undergo deep and radical changes in the way you perceive yourself and the world - these times will tend to come along when there are important transits and progressions involving the Saturn and Pluto configurations in your chart because they are tied so closely to the main personal factors in the chart - the Sun, Moon and Ascendant. Depression, frustration, grief and rage could all come up at these times, and allowing such feelings into consciousness and containing and creatively channelling them, rather than acting them out blindly, will bring the transformation which is both your fate and your birth right.

Mars in Sagittarius is an important planet in this chart because of the suggestion of suppressed anger by the strength of Saturn and Capricorn, the strength of Libra, and also by probable Plutonian feelings that there are forces in life which are too powerful to overcome. It could be useful for you to find a way to communicate any anger that you are carrying, since Mars is in the 3rd house. It could be that you are quick to speak out about moral issues (Sagittarius) but that when it comes to standing up for yourself you are somewhat inhibited. Your communications with others could be tense and prickly at times, and this could be a sign that you are carrying unexpressed anger and resentment. You may also be accident prone for the same reason.

But anyway, there is lots of speculation here, but hopefully something useful.

[pameta]

Hi all,
thanks You so much for very instructive interpretation of the influences from pluto and saturn. You are right, both planets have a strong need for self-determination and control which tears me apart, but in the real life we never have the ultimate control, sometimes we think we have but in truth we don't. I think with saturn-transit over pluto/sun the control is withdrawn causing strong discomfort. And there is some uncertainty about whether it is fate or one should fight against this state. It's like you told there is a need to reorder one's values to recognize wheter they originate from others or are intrinsic.
A question to Peregrine Moon: You told you have also sun/pluto conjunction in your radix, how do you perceive its impact on your live, is it steady or only during transitions/progressions? Was pluto's energy helpful to transform yourself? Do you feel the extremes in your life?

Originally Posted by miquar

Mars in Sagittarius is an important planet in this chart because of the suggestion of suppressed anger by the strength of Saturn and Capricorn, the strength of Libra, and also by probable Plutonian feelings that there are forces in life which are too powerful to overcome. It could be useful for you to find a way to communicate any anger that you are carrying, since Mars is in the 3rd house. It could be that you are quick to speak out about moral issues (Sagittarius) but that when it comes to standing up for yourself you are somewhat inhibited. Your communications with others could be tense and prickly at times, and this could be a sign that you are carrying unexpressed anger and resentment. You may also be accident prone for the same reason.

What Miquar told about mars is correct, I often have met people which try to challenge me, even people I don't know, people on the street who accost me in passing by. Before I was engaged in astrology I was wondering why do people this, but when I read about my mars in 3. house it was clear... I'm curious that even when mars is not afflicted it behaves like this, but maybe it is also due to pluto which evokes strong emotions in others?

The interesting thing about my relationships is that my mother has an exact sun (aries) opposition to my sun/pluto in synastry and my spouse has an exact square of natal sun/moon-conjunction (cancer) to my sun/pluto and thus an opposition to my moon, all challenging aspects, but I had earlier more problems with my mother than with my spouse. With my mate I have almost harmonic relationship, although there is more tension in synastry as with my mother. In general I noticed that for cancers I'm like a bulb for night-butterflies.

Question to Miquar: What can this be attrbuted to, since for cancers I should be a red rag because of all tensions in radix? Should they not be alienated by the pluto/capricorn moon?


Thank You for Your answers before!

[Peregrine_Moon]

Originally Posted by pameta

A question to Peregrine Moon: You told you have also sun/pluto conjunction in your radix, how do you perceive its impact on your live, is it steady or only during transitions/progressions? Was pluto's energy helpful to transform yourself? Do you feel the extremes in your life?

I'm going to be 54 years old in August. My Sun-Pluto conjunction is in Virgo, conjunct Mercury in Leo, in my 9th house. I have Sagittarius rising. In most respects, I have considered Pluto to be a good planet for me. I thought it made me deeper, more thoughtful, and that it supported my interest in immersive kinds of research. I couldn't see Pluto's negative or darker traits in myself very strongly, but that's not a surprise: most of us can't see these things. What I have felt very powerfully is the impact of Pluto's transit in recent years.

In 2000, I ended my marriage to a very Plutonic man who had become increasingly abusive over the 15 years we were together. His Sun is in Aries, he has Scorpio rising and his Moon is in Leo. He also has an exact opposition between Pluto and Mars. I didn't know anything about astrology when I married him. His desire for control over me and every aspect of my life grew and grew during our marriage, as did his secrecy and deception. He rarely told the truth about anything and he couldn't keep a promise to me if it was inconvenient. He always says the right things. What he does is rarely right at all. After our marriage ended, his behaviour worsened dramatically as he unleashed the Mars-Pluto rage, fuelled by his Leo Moon's insistence that he was all that matters, and his Sun's assurance that he had to win every point in our conflict. He was able to behave in unconscionable ways towards me and our children with considerable success because Neptune is exactly conjunct his Ascendant and skillfully aids him in seeming to be completely different from the person he is.

Pluto began to transit my first house when I decided to end my marriage. Pluto is the planet of regeneration, but death and destruction have to come first. Most of the last 12 years have been harrowing for me. I wasn't able to resist a lot of what my now-ex husband did and I had no one to help, support or defend me. His stated plan was to destroy me completely, and he very nearly succeeded. Nearly every aspect of my life has been torn apart or shattered. I think that Pluto conjunct my Sun blinded me both to Pluto's potential in my own life and also to the reality of my husband's character. I also think that my Pluto-Sun attracted him into my life.

In some ways, my Pluto-Sun aspect may have made things worse than might have been the case if the two planets were not conjunct. Pluto is the planet of healing and renewal. It gives a quality of steadfastness in spite of adversity that no other planet in the zodiac can begin to offer. My ex was determined to push me into deepest despair, expecting me to end my life. He was relentless. Where his fury can be little less than incendiary at times, I rarely express anger outwardly. I tend to turn it inward, on myself, in depression. But Pluto gives me enormous strength. Wounded, struggling hard, holding on by a few fingertips at best sometimes, I didn't let go. I only learned a couple of years ago that Chiron opposes my Pluto-Sun-Mercury stellium. After almost eight years, I was finally able to move 2,800 miles away from my ex; only then did my regeneration begin in earnest. When I the threats to my own personal safety and security were diminished, I was able to look outward, away from my inmost fears, and to engage with other people helpfully and productively: Chiron helped to restore me.

From my own experience and in learning from others' experiences, I think that it takes an enormous amount of Pluto to transform Pluto. I got a huge dose of it from the transit and from my ex's Plutonic fury. I feel as though I have come through the refiner's fire, a place of deepest darkness and radical isolation.

I think that, through this very harsh transit, I have learned to be much more compassionate than ever before. My intuition is stronger. My ability to dive deeply into study and learning has always been one of my greatest strengths and I believe is even better now. I am more patient, too. Spiritually, I am considerably stronger. I am much more able to help other people now and much more interested and invested in doing so.

Pluto is not finished with me yet. The hard transit to my first two houses will continue for the rest of my life. My first and second houses are 70° wide, in total. I will be in my mid-80s when Pluto finally moves into my third house. At the moment, transiting Pluto is conjunct my natal Moon which is just outside of trine to my natal Pluto. I am finding this point of the transit to be much easier than when Pluto was approaching, conjunct and then moving away from Saturn, which is also in my first house.

[pameta]

Hi Ann,

thank You for the deep insight into your life with pluto. It`s so intimidating to hear about the gifts which pluto keeps at hand for his children. This man who is your ex has so much destructive energy with this placement of planets you described. The price of seeing the life in all its facets seems to be much of pain. I think by means of mercury conjuncting your sun/pluto in virgo you have a plethora of analytical abilities and are so sharp-minded, which helps you so much in your life to overcome everything.

Now I'm more aware of pluto's transit through my fourth house, when it was on the cusp of my IC I had very stirring time with my spouse because I randomly discovered that he has some hidden fondness which is in opposite to my morals and my normally lucky relationship became cracked, but I attributed this to saturn transit over my natal jupiter and in approach to my natal ascendant/saturn. Now, with saturn transit on my sun my thoughts and sorrows are directed more inwards, I can not find the psychical strength inside me to reorganize my goals professionally, I feel the life passing and there is some strange perception that the lifetime is strongly restricted although I'm just over thirty. In seven years pluto will transit my natal moon in fourth house and square natal sun/pluto, I think these would be my last days or I will loose somebody significant to me .
To Ann: I hope you will/has meet/met an understanding mate after this horrible marriage, with such a bright spirit you will be an enrichment in every relationship

[Peregrine_Moon]

Pameta, I've learned that life is always a mixed bag. It's never an all or nothing experience unless we refuse to look for more than we believe is going on.

Lots of good people love me well. I haven't always been able to see that, particularly during the worst of Pluto's transit, when it was conjunct Saturn in my first house. But now that I live far away from my ex, my circumstances are different, there are good people in my life, my son is thriving and little by little springtime is returning, again.

Your Sun is square your Moon. It may be that your parents were having a difficult time in your early years and that the struggle between who you are and what you need most deeply has touched you deeply.

Your sense that your lifetime is constricted doesn't mean that the length of your life must be limited, though. To begin with, transiting Pluto square your natal Sun-Pluto conjunction may be a final affirmation of the changes that you've had to make, of the ways you've transformed yourself during this rough transit. After all, you are very familiar with Pluto in your life, whether you can see that or not. The square between Moon and Sun is also familiar to you. These repetitions need not become dire things even if they are in some ways more intense. You are older than when you first adjusted to these influences. Time does bring wisdom and perspective. It also helps us find new opportunities, make difference choices and have other experiences. In other words: there is much to hope for.

Please also note that you have a grand Earth trine between your Moon, Chiron and Venus. That is a very, very fortunate thing that transiting Pluto cannot destroy. Contact with your Moon will reverberate around the triangle, there. Venus trine Moon is a lovely thing, though it will likely make you more emotional, less in control of your emotions. This may be a very good thing because Chiron is there, already encouraging you to heal wounds from your early life. Venus and Chiron and profoundly benefic. Ultimately, Pluto is benefic, too. Transformation is renewal. This grand trine gives you practical self-sufficiency, a valuable strength, and because the Moon and Venus are involved, your emotional reality is part of it.

When Pluto contacts your Sun, it's the last time it will make a direct contact--a conjunction--with any of your planets in this lifetime. I hope that this final connection will be a blessing, a confirmation of your strength, the importance of your emotional reality, and an affirmation of all that you love which will be on solid ground.

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

Saturn is transiting my first house and had been since it first hit libra. At first, I was trying so hard to achieve my goals but each time I would fail and it would lead to frustration. So without even knowin it, I would take breaks as a way to ease my frustration. I was depressed, often times doing nothing because I felt like I would fail anyway and other times the support just wasn't there. I wanted immediate gratification and it just wasn't going to happen. I kept wanting to see changes right now but Saturn said no and I said fucc it.

As it progressed further in my house I learned and accepted that the things I want are going to require patience and will power. You have to wait for your seeds you planted to grow. I started to become aware of myself, my image and who I truly am and the maturity process started. Now Saturn is conjunct my natal sun, asc., sextile my natal Uranus, and opposite my natal Jupiter. And it's also near the end of my first house. Things seem much more clear and I can honestly say that my patience is going to be tried and so is my will power

[pameta]

Originally Posted by Peregrine_Moon

Your Sun is square your Moon. It may be that your parents were having a difficult time in your early years and that the struggle between who you are and what you need most deeply has touched you deeply.

You are right I had a stressed childhood, my parents divorced when I was two years old and when I was five I got a new dad. The problem was that my biological father has abused my mother and she hated him. I think for her it was difficult to be alone with a child which looked very similar to him. She often told me directly I look like my father and that he was a very bad person. Sometimes she told it with such an antipathy to me that I felt all her hate against my father was diverting against me. It was so horrible when she told me "don't look like this, you're resembling me of him!" I did nothing bad, I only had the appearance/look of my biological father.
My life deteriorated when I got a stepbrother, there was some subliminal indication that I didn't belong to the family and my stepfather started to beat me in the absence of my mother preferably with his fist on my head, sometimes I got some sound in my head from this. I tried to complain few times when my mother came home, she argued with my father, then she went together with him to me, had beaten me on my buttocks and told him this is the right way to punish physically. Afterwards when we were alone she told me I was responsible for all this trouble she had with my stepfather. So I stoped to complain anymore and tried to avoid of beeing alone with my stepfather.
A long time I didn't realize that my mother was the initiator of all my sorrows, I blamed only my stepfather for beeing so aggressive physically (he has Mars/Saturn/Pluto conjunction in leo first house, sun in aries, moon/jupiter conjunction in opposition to uranus). But when I started to engage with astrology I realized the more potent influence of psychic abuse originated from my mother. I tried to overcome my feelings of resentment and injustice happened to me, I have good relationship to my mother and stepfather, but I still feel that she can not love me as deep as mother should love her daughter.
All this struggles I trace back to my natal sun/pluto/moon placement. And saturn-transit evokes again the issues of beeing rejected and unloved, the only anchor of self-worth was my work, but now it is also vanished, there is no light on the horizon...

[pameta]

Originally Posted by m0ney*p0wer*re$pect

As it progressed further in my house I learned and accepted that the things I want are going to require patience and will power.

When one can not change things one can only face the fate, this is what I'm now practitioning, but it's so difficult to give up

[miquar]

Pameta and Peregrine Moon - thank you both for those intimate and illuminating accounts of Pluto.

I would say pameta, that its important for you to develop a stronger sense of what your personally value - what gives you a sense of permanence and solidity. Your work seems to have provided this to some extent, but perhaps now life is asking you to find it on a deeper level.

In order to successfully go through Plutonian processes of change, there needs to be some enduring sense of personality, which is defined by what one values. And vice versa - in order to develop a real sense of durability, we need to surrender the things we have relied upon and survive without them. Both these things are illustrated by the fact that Taurus and Scorpio are opposite one another in the Zodiac.

With Pluto so strong in your chart, and with the Sun and Ascendant ruler in the 12th house, your sense of individuality may need to be consciously defined. I'm not surprised that you feel that your life is strongly restricted with Pluto and Saturn so strong in your chart. But there is scope for you to discover and express the unique individual that you are. Saturn in fact insists on this, although the self-doubt which is part of Saturn's path can cause some people to give up and never reach that goal. Pluto, although an impersonal and primal energy, needs to be harnessed and expressed consciously - so although Pluto does not encourage individuality in the way that Saturn does, it is essential that we cultivate a strong ego (not a rigid compensatory strength, but a genuine strength which allows flexibility) in order to express a strong Pluto creatively.

You mentioned Mars. As you say, Mars doesn't seem to be afflicted in this chart. It is in its natural element, and is closely sextile the Ascendant. But it doesn't really make many aspects, and it rules the descendant. Also, the chart as a whole suggests difficulty in expressing anger in a straightforward way (Scorpio, Pluto, Capricorn, Saturn, Libra, 12th house). Mars is the only planet in fire besides Neptune, and the ruler of Sagittarius, Jupiter, is in a sign of detriment in the 12th house. So I think that Mars could to some extent be an outcast in this chart.

You said that you stopped complaining about the treatment you received from your step father, so the natural inclination of this Mars to speak out (3rd) and invoke the protection of the divine father (Sagittarius) was denied to you. It might be worth looking at different ways that Mars in Sagittarius and Mars in the 3rd house can be expressed. Unless we can express aggression in healthy and conscious ways, the self and the life that we attempt to build are a pale reflection of how things could be. And this is of course a recipe for depression, resentment, illness and self-destructive behaviour.

Even something as simple as cycling around could get that Mars going (Sagittarius = thighs, and 3rd house = short journeys). Horse riding is traditionally associated with Mars in Sagittarius too. Also learning and travel are possibilities.

I think you're right that the Pluto energy is attracting some of the confrontation, perhaps also Mercury in Scorpio conjunct Uranus (which also perhaps says something about not being listened to, especially since Mercury is in close hard aspect to Saturn and Chiron. Also Neptune in the 3rd). But I feel that freeing your Mars would be the most obvious way to deal with this and also your feelings of stuckness. There may be lots of anger about the way you've been treated that needs to come out as part of this.

I'm not sure I have much to suggest about why you have found it easier to get along with Cancer types than your Aries mother. Your Mother's references to you looking like your father make her sound very Plutonian/Scorpionic, and of course this is not surprising given your strong Moon Pluto aspect. It seems that she hasn't managed to live out her Aries side very 'cleanly'. Aries' inherent nature is to take each moment as it comes, and not to waste time and energy dwelling on the past. And of course she married two men who to some extent were also not able to express their Mars/Aries energy cleanly.

If you can form a more conscious relationship with your Mars, you will be less likely to attract similar types of Aries people in the future, though you will then perhaps attract healthier Mars types instead due to Aries setting in your natal chart.

Cancer types may see you as offering the structure and support that they need. But the best way to answer that question is to ask them, or to notice how they are around you that is different to how they are around others, or how you find yourself instinctively responding to them (perhaps following unspoken/unconscious prompts from them). You may appreciate their vulnerability is closer to the surface, and how they are able to swim with the tides of their moods and feelings.

[pameta]

Originally Posted by miquar

Your Mother's references to you looking like your father make her sound very Plutonian/Scorpionic, and of course this is not surprising given your strong Moon Pluto aspect. It seems that she hasn't managed to live out her Aries side very 'cleanly'. Aries' inherent nature is to take each moment as it comes, and not to waste time and energy dwelling on the past. And of course she married two men who to some extent were also not able to express their Mars/Aries energy cleanly.

Miquar, thank you very much for the highly instructive and enlightening interpretation of pluto/saturn influence! I was very pleased reading your detailed comments, I like your way to explain the planetary effects meaningfully and logically, with your words astrology become a real natural science! Do you have some virgo impact on your chart?
My mother has a really "nice" figure in her radix: the grand cross, involving Mercury, Moon, Jupiter, Neptune, Uranus, North Node. And she has a Pluto/Venus opposition. The fire element is dominating with five planets within it. And she has so many retrograde planets: Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto. It's really amazing.
I think somebody with my chart was destined to have this mother and has his life-task in recycling all the carmic trash inherited from her. Maybe this is also some kind of duty gifted from saturn and pluto. I attached her chart below.
Maybe in order to being beloved by my mother I developed a burning ambition reflected in Saturn's/Pluto's placement. But no matter what I accomplished it is never enough and one day all the invested energy vanished. And nothing is going further - that's Saturn's transit.
Possibly I closed my heart too long time from the inner needs and spirituality. I always felt the another world, but I refused to get in it - no time. Perhaps pluto wants me to join this spiritual sense. I started practitioning yoga and listening to chill out music.
What would you say about that? Saturn is materialistic and directs goals towards mundane world, but Pluto wants to experience more than that, he aspires after transcendency and connection to higher consciousness. And this couses also strong tension in native with strong Saturn/Pluto in natal. Both planets have strong will but different directions, tearing the native apart?

[gen6k]

if youre scared of what might happen with hard pluto/saturn transits look at the part of treachery and part of fatality and transits to the 8th or 12th.

if there is first coming under the influence of an 8th or 12th participant, the person starts to get weary eventually. then eventually another combinatorial pattern could eventually trigger various negative parts and cause a person to lose thier cool for a day or two seriously.

so, yeah that would be a time to prepare for instead.

[Peregrine_Moon]

Pameta, I don't think that Saturn and Pluto are at odds with each other. They have different functions that we often experience as harsh or malefic because we don't want to change if we can avoid it.

You're absolutely right about Saturn. He's concerned with mundane things, with this life, this world, this dimension of living. He teaches us to be realistic, to be moderate, not to go off on some wild, spontaneous Uranian jaunt through the world without making sure that our health insurance premiums are up to date, that someone will feed the cat while we're gone and that we have enough money in our pockets to cover not just the basics but unexpected things, too, like flat tires and lost luggage. When the bases are covered, Saturn's work is done.

Pluto doesn't care about rules-bound ways of living. He's about cosmic transcendence. The long view is the only perspective he has. Things like insurance and bank balances don't register with him because he aims for complete transformation. Saturn is concerned with our daily lives and our bodies. Pluto is concerned with the state of our souls and resists everything that may get in the way of our progress. Pluto wants us to let go of everything--to practice non-attachment--and live in the cosmic, eternal now. Saturn would say that's great, but we also need to take care that we don't freeze to death or die of starvation while we attune ourselves to the music of the spheres.

Even when these two planets are in opposition they're not fighting so much as demanding that we find the balance between prudence and immortality.

I haven't had a chance to look at your mother's chart very closely, but there seem to be traits that get passed around between family members, almost like a gene being transmitted from one generation to another. For example, both you and your mother have Sun square Moon, which usually indicates conflict between parents during a child's early life. When we grow up with difficult models of adult relationships, it can be a struggle for us to create healthy ways to relate to others in our own lives.

Just looking at the aspectarian for your mother's chart is sobering to me. Soooo many squares and oppositions to her Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus, under enormous tension with trines--as though she's being directed in specific ways. Mercury seems to be bombarded with limiters, one way or another, and is retrograde to begin with.

You pointed out the huge number of retrograde planets in her chart. Astrologers have trouble agreeing about the significance of retrogradation, but I'm inclined to say that retrograde motion is an inhibitor of action and expression. One might say that your mother was bound and limited from every side and that she had little scope for open, free expression that was positive or life-giving for her. Without a lot of support and encouragement, it could be a tough struggle.

[miquar]

Thanks Pameta. I have Pluto conjunct the IC in Virgo. The first astrology book I ever picked up gave a paragraph about each Sun and rising sign combination. I hadn't asked my Mum what time I was born at that point, so I read all the Aquarius Sun paragraphs and thought I was either Virgo or Cancer rising. In the end it turned out I was Cancer rising. But I do identify with the sign of Virgo. I don't know if its something to do with having a strong Saturn combined with air being my strongest element. Or perhaps having Pluto on the IC really brings out that Virgo. My Dad comes across as very Pluto/Virgo, so my childhood experience of him would haven really resonated with that part of my chart.

Thanks for putting up your Mum's chart. Even though its a grand trine, the Mercury Saturn Pluto configuration has the potential for insensitive communication, and also for needing to control what is accepted as fact. A stressed Mercury in Aries can come out with sudden stinging words. This would be especially true in this chart where Aries' ruler, Mars, is conjunct Chiron in Aquarius in the 3rd. Mercury is also square the Aquarius Moon (which opposes Uranus). Jupiter making the grand trine into a kite could bring a sense of self-righteousness to this configuration.

There's perhaps something in all this about your Mum having ideals of courageous and ethical behaviour which she felt unable to live up to, and consequently needing to turn her frustration on others as a way of numbing the pain.

Saturn Pluto charts can reflect sudden breakdowns of a way of being, like when you said that one day the invested energy just vanished, but there tends to be a building up of pressure over time which leads up to this. There may be more times in your life when you feel like you're in some kind of emotional pressure cooker while further transformation takes place, or when things suddenly tear apart the fabric of some area of your life.

Your Saturn rising connects you to the structures and rules in the world around you. You can become very adept at working within these frameworks, and as long as you are always honest with yourself about who you are, including any fears of not measuring up to the expectations of others, then Saturn rising shouldn't be a problem. Its only when unacknowledged fear causes us to avoid situations or to overcompensate that Saturn generates unnecessary suffering. In other words, you can feel fear without it making you psychologically rigid. Self-discipline can be applied gently and softly with humility - it doesn't have to involve all-or-nothing concepts of success and failure, and it doesn't have to involve shame or guilt as a motivation.

And then Pluto's transformations can flow more readily. And you can use the Saturn very effectively to make new forms. It could be that part of your path will involve identifying one or more areas of social transformation which parallel your own journey. Your innate understanding of the importance of both stability and change can help you to work effectively to bring necessary changes into being.

You may be able to mediate between those who cling rigidly to that which is tried and tested, and those who want to destroy all that has been built. This is especially the case with the Libra emphasis. Saturn is essentially a planet of manifestation, and something needs to be given form in the world, even if this something is an idea or an ideal of harmony.

Mercury in Scorpio semisquare Saturn and opposite Chiron suggests that your mind is well suited to this task. Wounding words may have undermined your sense of self-worth and capacity for self-sufficiency (2nd house) and developing your mental faculty in a way that enables you to facilitate change in yourself and in the world could repair that damage. Perhaps the work you were doing before wouldn't have done justice to your potentials, and you need to develop new resources which can be used in more even more fulfilling work.

I think its great that you've been doing yoga while transiting Neptune has been stationing square your natal Mars.

[pameta]

Originally Posted by Peregrine_Moon

One might say that your mother was bound and limited from every side and that she had little scope for open, free expression that was positive or life-giving for her. Without a lot of support and encouragement, it could be a tough struggle.

Peregrine Moon, yes my mother was very restricted in self-affirmation by curcumstances in her life, she has so much energy and can not sit quitely, she has always to move, to do something, is emotionally hyperactive but simultaneously she is somewhat inactive in setting goals and achieving them. She always hoped her husband would bring some wealth into her life, she is very vein but she didn't try to accomplish her career, she is more a housewife than careerist, although she has very good memory and is very talkative. In the outside world she can not stand up for herself, she is afraid of what people will say/think about her. This trait she overcompensates at home beeing too argumentative.
Since I'm an adult and accomplished some things in my life and I'm more an authority for her and have to teach her that the opinions of other people are not always important and she should stand up for herself. But her Mercury is so afflicted that it is difficult to bring lasting changes to her mind.

[pameta]

Originally Posted by miquar

I have Pluto conjunct the IC in Virgo. The first astrology book I ever picked up gave a paragraph about each Sun and rising sign combination. I hadn't asked my Mum what time I was born at that point, so I read all the Aquarius Sun paragraphs and thought I was either Virgo or Cancer rising. In the end it turned out I was Cancer rising. But I do identify with the sign of Virgo.

Do you have any psychic ability with Pluto-IC conjunction and Cancer rising or do you work as psychlogist? It seems to me that you can heal souls with your words. Very nice to read your explanations.

Originally Posted by miquar

Perhaps the work you were doing before wouldn't have done justice to your potentials, and you need to develop new resources which can be used in more even more fulfilling work.

Maybe you are right, I worked as researcher before and researchers do not have much of contact to other people. My Mercury in Scorpio, Saturn on ascendant and planets in 12. house are good for secluded science, but Libra rising, 3. house Mars/Neptune and Pluto/Sun conjunction need obviously more contact to people, perhaps more tasks in quiding people and to pass the gained expertise on others. Now I'm reorganizing my life-goals and collecting my energy for the next stroke. I'm like a wounded animal, which hides itself and licks one's wounds.
Perhaps Pluto wants to have more impact not only on dead matter but also on people around him and Saturn is triggering this now by opening the drain of energy supply.
To which Planet are the arising fears and dark thoughts more attributed, to Saturn or Pluto? Since both planets are described to cause these negative emotions in natives by literature, some kind of shadow-orientation in life, to see rather black sides of things?
Whatever, I attribute all the struggles in my life more to Pluto than to Saturn. Even if I'm blocked in my outside life, my inner life becomes more intense and flutter. And the more I feel depressed and depleted, the more people around me tell me that I look happy and shining. Last week I was at the doctor to get some tranquillizers and he told me I smile and look bright, it doesn't look to him as I'm depressed! I didn't want to start to cry but I was only few steps about doing this.
Nevertheless now I'm somewhat calmer after reviewing my life

[pameta]

Originally Posted by gen6k

if youre scared of what might happen with hard pluto/saturn transits look at the part of treachery and part of fatality and transits to the 8th or 12th.

if there is first coming under the influence of an 8th or 12th participant, the person starts to get weary eventually. then eventually another combinatorial pattern could eventually trigger various negative parts and cause a person to lose thier cool for a day or two seriously.

so, yeah that would be a time to prepare for instead.

So what do you think when this time will be? I think when in radix there are no stressed aspekts from 8th or 12th houses than no bad transit can bring prolonged and extensive harm to the native. So one should more be afraid of triggering challenging aspects by transits...Potentially I didn't understand you...

[miquar]

Thanks for your kind words, pameta.

Saturn on the Ascendant can manifest as a persona which becomes rigid. This came to mind when I read in your post about people not being able to see how you are feeling inside. You may benefit from considering what motivates you to keep that mask in place rather than being more transparent. On some level and for some reason you have perhaps decided that it would be risky to share more of your real self with the world around you, and this has perhaps become habitual. It is likely that this has served a useful purpose in your life, protecting you from being overwhelmed by anxiety. But as your ego becomes stronger, you can start to dismantle this protective shield and start to take more risks in expressing yourself to those around you.

I would associate Saturn with a kind of circumscribed fear which clings to what is trusted and generates contempt for that which stands outside. Saturnian defensiveness perhaps carries a kind of snobbery because of its association with doing things according to one's chosen set of rules and values, which tend to reflect the need for social cohesion and the protection of individuals from the excesses of one another.

Pluto is more 'jungle law' - the survival of the fittest, but both planets involve the need to adapt to a set of laws in order to feel safe.


Pluto is one of the energies that challenges Saturn's reality, along with all the other celestial bodies orbiting our Sun from beyond Saturn's orbit. Saturn would have nothing to fear if it were the last word in the solar system. So fear is perhaps symbolised by the interaction of Saturn and the trans-Saturnians.

Or actually in other words, I don't know how to properly answer your question about dark thoughts. But My feeling is that they are more Plutonian, because Pluto really pulls our awareness into the unknown, which is what destroys the known.

[pameta]

Originally Posted by miquar

Saturn on the Ascendant can manifest as a persona which becomes rigid. This came to mind when I read in your post about people not being able to see how you are feeling inside. You may benefit from considering what motivates you to keep that mask in place rather than being more transparent. On some level and for some reason you have perhaps decided that it would be risky to share more of your real self with the world around you, and this has perhaps become habitual.

I think this "mask" is generated by Pluto in Libra in first house and Libra ascendant. Libra wants to appear friendly, effortless, careless and airily and this manifests in the outer envelope. The nature of Libra to smile though she feels the opposite is strengthened by Pluto's presense and Saturn feels more secure through being "inviolable" by hiding the inner world. Apparently despite of Saturn on ascendant, which is described to give rather cold, aloof and stern exterior to the native, Libra's influence is stronger making me look shiny to others. I'm often underestimated by people regarding my intelligence at first encounter, perhaps because I'm female and look nice. So I'm often compeled to take a narcissistic and superior position and to list all my educational achievements to get respect from others, but my Libra nature likes more to be on equal positon with conversational partners. Anyway it is interesting to see that Saturn on ascendant is not really reflected in my appearance, I'm not shy, can interact easily with new people and speak very much, in my circle of friends I'm known as being able to speak for hours without becoming tired - maybe due to Saturn's endurance on ascendent with sextile to Mars' energy from third house, this trait is one of the most prominent of my character: speaking and speaking and speaking... until conversation partner falls asleep or flee. I can be very self-sarcastic and I like black humor.
In the midst of my Sun/Pluto conjunction I have also Lilith, it's curious that I'm not that vamp-woman with highly amplified sexuality, I'm rather inhibited in this direction, the Pluto/Sun/Lilith combination seems to fail its purpose in my chart. Which other outlets are there for this aspect? What is the Lilith's role and outlet in this game? Can it be that Chiron placed in my 8th house and on the top of the kite figure in opposition to Mercury is somehow inhibiting Pluto's and Lilith's output, because of the 8th house ?
Thank you for your thoughts about this issue !

[miquar]

Originally Posted by pameta

Apparently despite of Saturn on ascendant, which is described to give rather cold, aloof and stern exterior to the native, Libra's influence is stronger making me look shiny to others. I'm often underestimated by people regarding my intelligence at first encounter, perhaps because I'm female and look nice. So I'm often compeled to take a narcissistic and superior position and to list all my educational achievements to get respect from others, but my Libra nature likes more to be on equal positon with conversational partners.

The bits I've made bold sound very Saturnian to me. The underestimation of your intelligence (air sign) could be partly due to a subtle lack of confidence which comes through despite your efforts to express confidence, and it could also be partly because you assume that others will doubt your intelligence more than they actually do - selective perception and jumping to conclusions and all that.

Originally Posted by pameta

Anyway it is interesting to see that Saturn on ascendant is not really reflected in my appearance, I'm not shy, can interact easily with new people and speak very much, in my circle of friends I'm known as being able to speak for hours without becoming tired - maybe due to Saturn's endurance on ascendent with sextile to Mars' energy from third house, this trait is one of the most prominent of my character: speaking and speaking and speaking... until conversation partner falls asleep or flee. I can be very self-sarcastic and I like black humor.

Saturn rising can develop a 'highly polished' (Greene) persona which is very different to the diffidence and awkwardness which is often assumed to be the case with this placement. A possibility to consider is that you feel cut off from others due to Saturn rising and communicating with others (air sign) helps to alleviate that. As you say, Mars in the 3rd (also in Sagittarius) will no doubt add to your eagerness to communicate.

Originally Posted by pameta

In the midst of my Sun/Pluto conjunction I have also Lilith, it's curious that I'm not that vamp-woman with highly amplified sexuality, I'm rather inhibited in this direction, the Pluto/Sun/Lilith combination seems to fail its purpose in my chart. Which other outlets are there for this aspect? What is the Lilith's role and outlet in this game? Can it be that Chiron placed in my 8th house and on the top of the kite figure in opposition to Mercury is somehow inhibiting Pluto's and Lilith's output, because of the 8th house ?

I don't know what Lilith is or what this (imaginary/real?) body symbolises, but if you are wondering why your sexual energy feels more muted than it might, you could look to various possible chart features:

The prominence of Libra (The need to relate with social grace and civility, rather than unleashing the animal side of oneself).

The prominence of Virgo (Virgo is a ultimately a deeply sensual sign but can be inhibited by fear of losing control).

Saturn rising and Moon in Capricorn - Capricorn IC also (needing to maintain a sense of separateness and self-control)

The strength of Pluto in the chart (fear of being overwhelmed and annihilated and so being resistant to losing control of oneself).

Venus in Virgo in the 12th (given messages that sensual pleasure is somehow not appropriate - that one must use one's Venus only for the benefit of others).

Chiron in Taurus (sense of woundedness with regard to one's capacity to experience the strength and pleasure of one's physical being)

Chiron in the 8th (sense of woundedness inhibits one's willingness to enter into intimate sharing with another)

Mercury in Scorpio in the 2nd house opposite Chiron - not sure but perhaps there is a connection to sexual expression since it connects with the Chiron aspects to the personal yin planets (see next paragraph) and because the 2nd house is connected with the experience of being in a physical body and Scorpio anticipates possible difficulties in relinquishing control.

Chiron aspects both Moon and Venus, creating a grand trine in the water houses. Not sure how to articulate this. I've touched on the individual placements above. Grand trines can generate intertia with regard to the assumptions arising from the linking of the planets involved. Planets in water houses can subtly influence motivations from the unconscious.


None of these placements limit your potential for a rich sexual life, of course. Venus and Moon in earth are very sensual in the way they connect emotionally with others. And there is a part of you that really wants to abandon yourself to some potentially transforming experience or other (this being reflected in your chart by the strong Pluto), of which sexual surrender would be one legitimate example.

As part of the Pluto in Libra generation, it is part of your destiny to break down some of the assumptions (Pluto) about what constitutes an acceptable courtship between two civilised human beings (Libra). With Pluto in Libra conjunct your Sun and in your first house, this is a generational issue that may well be more pertinent to your individual path than most others of this generation. Neither the Sun nor the first house have a specific connection with sexuality, but there is something here perhaps about finding yourself (Sun and 1st house) through allowing Pluto to expose hidden parts of yourself through your interactions with others, and if you resist this process, you will perhaps at the same time resist intimacy on all levels. ??

[Peregrine_Moon]

I have Saturn conjunct my Asc in Sagittarius in my natal chart. My Sun is conjunct Pluto in the 9th house, just our of orb to be trine to the Asc. When I was a child, I seemed to be a very serious kid, solemn, thoughtful, perhaps shy at times though not afraid to speak my mind when I felt it was the right time. While many people with Saturn conj. Asc seem rather cold or remote, I think that wasn't the case for me a lot of the time, perhaps because Sagittarius's fire is warm. Nonetheless, when I was a young woman--in my early 20s--I remember being told a number of times that I looked like someone who was welcoming, even motherly, but that I didn't actually behave that way, that there was something more intellectual than emotional going on.

I was born in Oklahoma, but moved to Canada with my family in the 1970s. By the time I was an adult, and on my own, many things in my life and personality had changed, as is often the case. I think that my relocated chart is many respects a better representation of who I am and how I engage with others. In the relocated chart, Saturn is in my second house and my Pluto-Sun conjunction is conjunct the MC in the 10th house. My relocated rising sign is Scorpio.

I don't look like a Scorpio; I'm much more Sagittarian. But people close to me say that the characteristics of Scorpio rising fit me perfectly. Just about everyone with a close Sun-Pluto contact emanates some of Pluto's mystery and magnetism, though they're rarely aware of it. I'm more aware of it in terms of the Scorpio ascendant, though. I'm often told that I seem to be mysterious, in some ways, and that I seem to be the the sort of person who can be trusted to keep a secret for others. That is true: it's a point of honour for me. I do wonder whether the Scorpio ascendant feels like a better "fit" for me because, as a water sign, it's simply more compatible with Virgo where both my Sun and Pluto are found.

A prominent Pluto placement will infuse a sense of distance in the personality even when the person is friendly, warm and generous. Others often feel that they can't get to know the individual well, or that there's something the Plutonic person is withholding or protecting.

The difference between Pluto and Saturn is subtle but distinctive. To other people, both can feel somewhat removed but that bit of distance can seem to be related to judgmentalism when Saturn is rising. When Pluto is on the Asc or Scorpio rises, the distance seems to be related to secrecy or some other kind of protective mechanism.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by Peregrine_Moon

The difference between Pluto and Saturn is subtle but distinctive. To other people, both can feel somewhat removed but that bit of distance can seem to be related to judgmentalism when Saturn is rising. When Pluto is on the Asc or Scorpio rises, the distance seems to be related to secrecy or some other kind of protective mechanism.

When I read this bit I got an image of a boy sat on a rock watching someone doing something - kind of looking disinterested and yet mildly distasteful. This was Saturn. And then for Pluto the boy was camouflaged in the bushes with a sphere in his hand staying hidden in the hope of avoiding confrontation but primed to kill should the need arise.

For the Pluto boy the other was like some alien life form, but for the Saturn boy the other was like him and different at the same time.

Thanks for sparking that, peregrine moon.


Another thing about Pluto is the theme of social evolution and how we have to surrender our personal concerns to this process to some extent. I'll use some great quotes I found to illustrate this:

Stephen Forrest, from The Inner Sky: "Pluto forces us to stare into the ultimate meaninglessness of our existence...To live with that brutal truth we must leap beyond the melodramas of personality. We must identify with something larger, more timeless."

Dane Rudhyar, from The Planetary Alphabet: "In its highest meaning, [Pluto] refers to the greatest contribution an individual person can make to [her/]his society or to humanity in general. But before [s/]he can make such an effectual and significant contribution, the individual must pass through experiences of at least relative psychological denudation and soul emptiness."

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

I had a Saturn conjunct transit Pluto a while ago in my 3rd house. It was in 2002-03 right when I started high school and things changes drastically. U kno I has insecurities just based on the conversations u would over hear n I became extremely detatched at school but I also became more active in my neighborhood, going out n interacting, when before, I would never do that


I know this transit opened my eyes and I had a traumatic experience before I graduated and before the conjunction loosened up and it stuck with me for years. Scarred my and it was just words. But that's the funny part about Saturn n Pluto here, cuz Saturn deals with the reality of words and the transit Pluto let me kno the horrible impact.


I paid alot of attention to rumors also, just to see the truth. Also, when Pluto first hit my third house something happened revolving siblings. I was using one sibling as a power mechanism, simply because I was a freshman n it helped me get by in a way. Another sibling and me got closer and had a turbulent relationship. And I also met a sibling that I never knew was my brother. And then he left and we came alienated ( and it hurt me bad)



Saw alot of truths come to the light but I never escaped this aspect with one deep wound and it still resonates


I'm still learning about the impact of this aspect cuz I had it when I was a teen looking for an identity,