What is the meaning of a stellium in 8th?

[MJ82]

Originally Posted by Blackempress

Aira is it possible for you to post a chart from Astro.com? I'm having a little difficulty interpreting this one. I noticed your chart is quite similar to mine & yes it's nice to have astrological/cosmic twins here so we can discover & come to terms with ourselves through the exploration of another.

Aira's astro.com chart is attached in an earlier post I believe

Originally Posted by Blackempress

I click with this but it's more a Pisces theme than 8th house. I usually feel transparent & over-absorbing to all the energy around me & it drains mine out.

It's true that this is very Pisces/12th house territory, but I do also think it's 8th house. 12th house (and pisces/neptune) is all about a kind of diffuse energy, transcendence, which is what can make it feel a little uncomfortable (says the Pisces sun child!), because it's dissolving, and when that's your ego or sense of self.... well

But 8th house is also energy exchange and sharing, at the active and conscious but much more so on the instinctive, subconscious, and involuntary level, I think anyway. So 8th house energy, at least in my experience, can put you instinctively in tune with the underlying sexual energies of others, which can be a lot to deal with. And also other energies, personal energies in general and just seeing into, and feeling, the essence of others, their psychological make up, that's a lot of energy to be receiving!

Originally Posted by miquar
Something for me which I have to try not to forget is that 8th house issues are made for sharing, and things feel better and clearer when we don't just keep them to ourselves. This I guess is what underpins therapy and confession, and sharing generally, even if we keep things bottled up until we end up sharing through the medium of a childish row!

Absolutely agree. I think strongly 8th house people have no choice but to face these complexities and issues, the "dark" side of existence, be it externally or internally, but when we accept it and learn to face it, through sharing it with others, confiding, therapy, deep friendship etc with others who are not afraid, and who understand, it can be very cathartic and character-building. And it can strengthen us and open us up to greater wisdom in life.

I've always been told that I am wise beyond my years, but I have always had difficulty applying this wisdom to myself and my own life. A line I read somewhere about Pluto in the 8th rings very true: "You might fall into the trap of being that paradoxical creature: the natural relationship counsellor who cannot make his or her own intimate life work."

This is where us 8th housers need to learn to trust and to open up, despite fear, and share, let go of control, of trying to control that which cannot be controlled - and give in to the nakedness of sharing and real intimacy. Because when we learn to let go (sometimes a lifelong journey) that's when we tap into our greatest strengths

[miquar]

Yes 'nakedness' is a really apt word. Innana has to remove a garment at each of the seven gates to Ereshkigal's underworld. It makes me think of that thing about some people needing to turn the light off to have sex. Nakedness with the lights on is more threatening than sex in the dark for such people, and I guess we all try to soften the blow of psychological nakedness in one way of another.

This is from the 8th house section of Steven Forrest's, The Inner Sky - a remarkable book.

Terrain:

• Instinctive behavioral determinants universally present in human consciousness:

1) Instinctive desire to form a sexual life bond; the mating instinct
2) Instinctive awareness of one’s own physical mortality; the way we cope with death
3) Instinctive sense of invisible, transcendent dimensions of reality; life after death, the “occult”

Successfully Navigated:

• Healthy, flowing, spontaneous sexuality
• Acceptance of death and an integration of its reality into daily life
• Sense of the immortality of one’s consciousness

Unsuccessfully Navigated:

• Blocked sexual functioning or obsessive sexuality
• Inordinate fear of death; denial of death
• Rigid denial of religious, occult, or mystical feelings

[kimbermoon]

Quote[Aira: About the debt, of course we have a debt, I am concious of it, but should not be confused with guilt, because is a natural way the cosmos move the energys from one to the other ... I feel a profound gratitude, we all have the same oportuniities the difference is that not all prepared to handle them. (racionalizing the whole theme) ]

Wow a very interesting thread going here...regarding the debt we are meant to clear in life, this relates to an inclusion of Saturn and it's appointments in the chart...I call this the karmic agenda. There is now the understanding that we carry memories from our ancestors through our very cells, and thus the debts we carry are a combination of our own actions, as well as those of the past. From this perspective it is easy to understand the specialized themes that seem to play out within families...as in the sins of the fathers...Saturn in Leo can carry the debtload of having been domineering, insincere, untrustworthy: the abuse of children, parenting mistakes or the negative implications of art. And no, it is not about guilt or punishment. As such we are each meant to correct these wrongs by gaining greater conscious awareness about such issues.
I have a Cancer Sun joined with Jupiter in the 8th house: for me it has resulted in familial dysfunctions [Jupiter also joined with South Node] and the struggle to keep my own emotional orientation in tact: there have been deaths where small inheritances have been received; I have been the maternal leader of my own family, mostly girls; divorce and estrangement from siblings...How could that be with such a positive appearing conjunction? It is because that conjunction is closely in opposition to my Mars. Of course, the aspects matter....I do think that those of us with 8th house Sun's are often meant to be counsellors, consultants, healers or psychologists.

[MJ82]

A very interesting article on the 8th house, which I was reminded of by Kimbermoon's mention of debt and the ancestors It's a very interesting read, as is this thread! I hope it keeps going.

http://www.themetaarts.com/archives/...sullivan1.html

Okay, another article, extract (I believe) from the book Miquar quoted from: http://whatsitallmeanthen.blogspot.c...8th-house.html

[miquar]

Thanks - great article and the site looks good too. The other two articles on the 4th and 12th houses are in the archives too, so I'll go back and read them at some point. Sun in the 8th really rang true for me:

"The Sun [in the 8th] speaks of a paternal legacy which has likely lost its brilliance and suffered an amputation from its source, or roots somewhere along the line, and it is up to the individual to reconnect this bond - to be the sumbolon [(symbol which bridges the conscious and unconscious/ancestry)]."

I never knew either of my grandfathers, so its like looking back at a paternal void. I'll reflect more over the next few days about how I can be that sumbolon.

Thanks again!

[EdgesOnCircles]

Originally Posted by MJ82

I have also had a life of numerous cycles of change, death and rebirth. My parents got divorced when I was 6 years old, and my mom raised me on her own, no siblings. That was a very traumatic and defining crisis for me, the consequences of which I am still coming to terms with. Also my Dad is a functioning (though brilliant minded) alcoholic. I had many traumas related to his drinking as a child and growing up when I was with him, saw many things which were very 8th house and that left a strong imprint on me.

I can nurse a grudge and remember a hurt for years, though I do often forgive and move past it, I never forget it. And I can reproduce the memory like it was yesterday, to the surprise of others and myself.

I am also very aware of my personal limitations and am always seeking to move beyond them, to grow as a person. Instability and insecurity, both external and internal, are common features of my life. It just goes with the territory I suppose….

I always hear parents asking whether or not it's better to get a divorce or stick together for the kids when the chemistry is nonexistent. I suppose a divorce is only healthy when both parents maintain a relationship with the children and keep a neutral attitude between each other. I'm on the flip side of you- my parents are still married, but should have gotten a divorce. After all the verbal abuse, loss of trust, and sometimes physical altercations...I have to wonder what they saw in each other before their marriage. My mother also leans on me when she needs to talk. I don't mind it really, it's the least I can do honestly...to sit and listen. At the same time, it's socially crippling. I'm convinced that I'll never get married or sign a union contract. I would say "Who needs to get married to prove their love anyway?"...but then again, if you couldn't tie the knot that shows a lack of trust or will to commit.

I have a hard time letting go of the past actually...so I need to take some notes from you I'm hypersensitive, which the Rabbit in Chinese astrology describes me perfectly. The northeastern hemisphere/quadrant of my natal chart carries the most weight so that also suggests an individual with a sacrificial behavior of the "self" and a tendency to create an image based on what everyone else thinks. Unfortunately, I take it to an extreme and continue to hold onto images from childhood relationships. This is where I'm limited in life and it's difficult to "grow" when I allow the small things to push me down. But hey, because I'm a Sagittarian I'm going to laugh and say "I can't get much lower" lol.

[Aira]

Thanks again to all for share your thoughts, Im happy our thoughts/experiences help each other!

In regards the theme Pisces/Neptune, I feel the same too Blackempress, drained and over-absorbing but I think as MJ82, this is accentuated by the 8th. Maybe its not casuality, to have Neptune and 8th house related in our charts.. dont you think?

As you requested Blackempress, find attached my chart, I hope you can see it better. Also, if you can attach yours, would be great to know my astrological twin.

Definitely agree with you MJ82, I have always had difficulty applying this wisdom to myself and my own life .. .and I feel that I have the wisdom enough to see other's life clearly and broad-minded, actually Im so good given to others advices and counselling. Im in love with psychotherapy (I think eventually I will be studying it) and I think now, as an adult, I have the experience and skills to work it properly.

Also, interesting articles regards debts and ancestors-related to 8th. In my case, its quite intersting. With sun and Mercury in Virgo, tends to rationalize and over-think things.. most of the times, when I use symbols and pay attention to synchronicity .. things results better... thats why I try to listen first my core-intuition first than my chatty mind.

As Miquar, I'll reflect more over the next days about that parents inheritance.

Kimbermoon, yes, with the 8th and the clarity it gives to us, we meant to be counsellors, psychoterapist of us, family and friends. We are old souls, and with all that experience, there is our strenght and our duty. It come to us naturally, to share all that info .. but also, the meaning is to obtain enough clarity and became our own therapist.

In terms of karma, Kimbermoon, yes, Saturn is the teacher, master of Karma. Definitely I agree with you: Saturn in Leo can carry the debtload of having been domineering, insincere, untrustworthy: the abuse of children, parenting mistakes or the negative implications of art. And no, it is not about guilt or punishment. As such we are each meant to correct these wrongs by gaining greater conscious awareness about such issues. I dislike those negative traits. Im not a domineering person, Im too sincere and reliable and trustworhty person. I think the Saturn transit through my life, have been doing the job of clarify/solve part of my karma debt .. Ive been painfully learning and I can see my past clearer now. But in your case, what is the meaning or lesson with that conj Sun-Jupiter opp to Mars?

Thanks again, and keep sharing!

[Aira]

Find attached the link to my chart

[Blackempress]

Thank you Aira for starting this thread.

I actually had an emotional HANG-UP! I deliberately use the word because it's a typical feature of the 8th house.This urged me to confront & purge the Poison I'd pent up all my life. The first word that comes to mind with the 8th house is 'Intensity'. Frankly after all the years when I stand facing the 'Internal mirror', I freak out with the depth & fierceness of my true nature.

I'm gonna expose the 'darker' psychological aspects of my life for an up-close view of the turmoils of this house.

I'm restating the 8th house matters & will try exploring each one, so bear with me:

Emotional Crisis-Sexual/Intimacy issues-Death-Loss-Violence-Power Struggles-Joint Finances-Psychology-Transformation-Taboo-Religion-Occult.

A feature common to 8th Pluto, (esp with Mars) I was sexually harassed as a child & learnt early how powerless I was in the face of men who were older, stronger & taller than me. I learnt to fear men’s physical strength from those times of being dragged to do something I disliked as none of the relationships had an intellectual or emotional contribution. My feelings were invalid regardless of whether I was angry, frightened or upset. They only wanted to satisfy their lust. Age worsened the amount of attention I received & I buried my frustration & anger for years before resentment pushed me into getting aggressive with anyone who tried getting close.

I began to associate femininity with weakness & rebelled by acting more masculine but it only reinforced the weakness I tried to battle. Refusing sex meant losing the attention & that resulted in emotional loss. I dealt with the pain, shame, guilt & an emotional void for years alone.
Being a natural psychologist, I understood that I needed to resolve my hatred for men to live a normal life & so I made male friends & got along fine except that I didn’t wish to be intimate with any & acted as a ‘shrink’ to all the ‘boyfriends’.

I ended up with eating disorders-anorexia & bulimia right after the molestation stopped. I suffered for 2 years before my logical head forced me to get on track. I had body dismorphic disorder & suicidal thoughts since I was 9. I still suffer from spells of PTSD but it's mostly resolved.

I came to term with my strength & ability to cope with crisis on my own. I learnt how far I've come as a pillar of strength that many people lean on now. My psychoanalytical skills are my pride & I am unruffled by taboos or anything unconventional. The fear of being exploited does loom but I've learnt to control relationships to my personal taste.

As for Power struggles, I don't let men dictate no matter how much I love them. I stand for my own values without the need to be validated by anyone & hate the idea of a dependent relation. I am a feminist at the core & a fierce protector of women if I see one being abused (esp by a male). It is also because of the male-dominated society where women are insisted to sacrifice their choices in servitude.

I'm way past the self-pity & don't regret any part of my life as it made me strong enough to hold myself & many others with me.

Highlights: Sexual Violence-Powerlessness-Physical violence-Emotional crisis-Identity crisis-Dealing with Loss-Suicide (death).
Survival, Self-empowerment, Transformation (Rebirth)-Real independence, Pillar of Strength.

--------------------------------------------------

I see a common feature here of issues with father. I thought mine linked to sun-sq-Saturn majorly so I'm gonna go over this one later.

Thanks for the Link MJ, as usual it was nice.

Originally Posted by MJ82;404113

[B

But 8th house is also energy exchange and sharing, at the active and conscious but much more so on the instinctive, subconscious, and involuntary level, I think anyway. So 8th house energy, at least in my experience, can put you instinctively in tune with the underlying sexual energies of others, which can be a lot to deal with. And also other energies, personal energies in general and just seeing into, and feeling, the essence of others, their psychological make up, that's a lot of energy to be receiving!
[/B]
Absolutely agree. I think strongly 8th house people have no choice but to face these complexities and issues, the "dark" side of existence, be it externally or internally, but when we accept it and learn to face it, through sharing it with others, confiding, therapy, deep friendship etc with others who are not afraid, and who understand, it can be very cathartic and character-building. And it can strengthen us and open us up to greater wisdom in life.

I've always been told that I am wise beyond my years, but I have always had difficulty applying this wisdom to myself and my own life. A line I read somewhere about Pluto in the 8th rings very true: "You might fall into the trap of being that paradoxical creature: the natural relationship counsellor who cannot make his or her own intimate life work."

This is where us 8th housers need to learn to trust and to open up, despite fear, and share, let go of control, of trying to control that which cannot be controlled - and give in to the nakedness of sharing and real intimacy. Because when we learn to let go (sometimes a lifelong journey) that's when we tap into our greatest strengths

Head-on as always!
I was thinking about the energy absorption & it does make sense why I repel people with strong sexuality instantly. It's literally like a Bug detector!
Btw Wise Beyond age that's Jupiter in Scorpio talking. It's been the same for me & the reason I never got along with people of my age-group.

Miquar thanks for the Quoted info. Your knowledge is a treat.

Aira, thank you for posting your chart, I'll get back here in a while.

[miquar]

Thanks for sharing that Blackempress. It really did feel like a guided tour of the 8th house. And openness like that helps the rest of us to share more of our own experiences and get the benefit which comes from that.

What you wrote clarified my understanding of Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house, and I'll try and articulate where I'm at with it now:

Pluto is the archetype which most forcefully asserts that each individual is ultimately insignificant and bound by fate. Most of us with a strong Pluto, Scorpio and/or 8th house seem to experience disempowerment at the hands of others as our introduction to Pluto's dimension. From here we initially try to protect ourselves from further humiliation by hiding away or by trying to overpower others. While we do this we are still under the power of the 'abuser(s)'. But when we choose to be who we are, which on the most basic level means to really feel what we feel, then we take our power back. Paradoxically we are choosing to surrender to our feelings and to a destiny not of our conscious choosing, but this seems to be the only way to arrive at the place of true strength which is the potential of Pluto/Scorpio/8th house energies.

Or as Jung said, "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must."

[MJ82]

Blackempress, thank you so much for spilling out your heart like that, and for sharing your very personal experiences with the more painful side of the 8th house. You're a real inspiration and a strong survivor. Keep shining as you are

[Blackempress]

Originally Posted by miquar

I guess we all try to soften the blow of psychological nakedness in one way of another.

Well-said. I'm often trying to 'soften' the blows because in my own world (Mind) everything was stark ugly & there was nothing I could do but 'accept' it. So here's a feature of my personality that taboos are not taboos but just 'are' & everything is perfect as it is.

Originally Posted by miquar

But when we choose to be who we are, which on the most basic level means to really feel what we feel, then we take our power back.

You tempted me to edit the post & write a very strong line I said to myself at the time I decided to stop the abuse.
"Take Back Your Life!"

I was glancing over your chart & can't particularly pin-point any paternal issues. If you come up with something please share.
Thank you for your kind words!

Originally Posted by MJ82

Blackempress, thank you so much for spilling out your heart like that, and for sharing your very personal experiences with the more painful side of the 8th house. You're a real inspiration and a strong survivor. Keep shining as you are

Thank you angel!
I really hope it inspires others to share their stories too & we can heal the pain we've carried in isolation together.

[Blackempress]

Originally Posted by Aira

In regards the theme Pisces/Neptune, I feel the same too Blackempress, drained and over-absorbing but I think as MJ82, this is accentuated by the 8th. Maybe its not casuality, to have Neptune and 8th house related in our charts.. dont you think?

Definitely agree with you MJ82, I have always had difficulty applying this wisdom to myself and my own life .. .and I feel that I have the wisdom enough to see other's life clearly and broad-minded, actually Im so good given to others advices and counselling. Im in love with psychotherapy (I think eventually I will be studying it) and I think now, as an adult, I have the experience and skills to work it properly.
-
Kimbermoon, yes, with the 8th and the clarity it gives to us, we meant to be counsellors, psychoterapist of us, family and friends. We are old souls, and with all that experience, there is our strenght and our duty. It come to us naturally, to share all that info .. but also, the meaning is to obtain enough clarity and became our own therapist.

Finally to the OP after my own rambling.

Aira, just asking, can you relate to this Placidus setting more than that to say Equal house or Whole signs? Taking whole signs your sun & mercury fall into the last bit of the 7th house which will nevertheless be considered over the cusp but still.

The points you stated, I can't discount that Pluto in 8th is a natural psychologist & is compulsively looking underneath the surface of anything it touches so that can't be denied regarding absorption of energies.

Agreed with you on the Neptune portion. We are highly sensitive to other people's needs & for myself, I can't see anyone in any form of distress. It upsets me & impulsively I jump to help anyone in any kind of trouble at all.

8th house is the house of healers, counselors, therapists, Psychics, surgeons. The 8th house people are those others turn to in times of crisis because they can be relied upon & can hold/carry others through those events. Psychotherapy is a good expression for this placement. I was never a formal student but have been counselling people in many forms for years though I find taking 'sessions' very draining & alot of times pointless because most people don't want to alter their perception but are rather looking for instant 'fixes'.
For me, after visiting a few people, I now realize I had always been my own therapist & it feels like a championship to me.
As for wisdom, it rescued me all my life & it's a huge asset for counselling others now.

You also have a last degree Scorpio MC which can relate to research/psychology itself but slide it into Saggitarius, that's still the psychic-counselor-educator.
How does Neptune in 10 present for you? Mine is conj MC & often worries me.

Your Jupiter in gemini falls into 4th. Does that give you alot of interest in the family matters/ relationships & the way they operate?
Would you say that your interest in psychology developed from difficulties in personal relationships? Pluto is making Abusive contacts to the Sun & Mars.

Love to hear the details of 8th stellium from you.

p.s: Libra is the sign of counseling.

[miquar]

Hi Blackempress. I would say that the following things in my chart could potentially bring up paternal issues:

Uranus in the 4th, sesquiqaudrate Sun
Pluto on the IC quincunx Sun
Sun in detriment
Sun in the 8th
Sun novile Chiron and binovile Saturn
Saturn exactly sesquiquadrate the Sun/Moon midpoint.

The thread has moved me to reflect on my relationship with my daughter, which has been a very painful issue at times. I'll come back on later to post about it, but suffice to say I am very grateful for this thread - its the kind of meaningful and healing contact that I wouldn't expect to find on a forum. I think we have really gathered some momentum in this thread in a way that perhaps we wouldn't readily do in isolation. For me at least, it would be a case of remaining too analytical and not making real contact with myself. But when someone else holds up the mirror, things seem to happen. Not exactly sure even what I'm trying to say here, but hopefully its reasonably clear!

[miquar]

My daughter and I both have strong Pluto's and I feel this has coloured our relationship. Her mother and I split up when she was very young, and she was about 7 or 8 when I got into the first relationship since her mother that was serious enough for her to have to know about it. She took this quite badly, especially when the new partner became pregnant and a little brother came along when my daughter was 10. She has Moon in Pisces closely square Pluto, with Pluto on the IC. She had never had to share me and it hit her very hard. She turned against me and everything she ever felt that I did wrong was never forgotten. In fact when she's not happy with me, I often get a catalogue of all the other things I have supposedly done wrong.

For my part, after the initial devastation of her turning against me, I am now more immune to her sense of disappointment with me and her determination to see me as the baddy whenever the opportunity arises. But my own Scorpio defences still make it difficult for me to let go of the hurts, and I do feel that we both carry a wariness of one another now - a sense that too much has happened for anything to be right.

She is 15 now, and so in adolescent mode anyway. I do believe that if I can take a lighter view of things, then in time she will come round to some extent, though I don't think she will ever consistently see me in a positive light. My Scorpio Moon is in the 5th, and I was very possessive and protective of her when she was younger. So I'm sure that I have played a part in making her the way she is. I think my protectiveness was there partly because I strove so hard to be the perfect parent, rather than brooding and withdrawn like my own father, that I projected some of my less 'parenty' feelings onto the world at large and felt the need to protect her.

It will be some years yet before I fully understand my motivations and perceptions as a parent over the last fifteen years. But it seems to be an example of how Scorpio/8th house/Pluto energies can pull a relationship into an intense and heavy place.

[kimbermoon]

It is interesting how often the Pluto/Moon configurations come up with such repetition in families...although not surprising because of the moon's rapid cycling in aspect to all the planets during each given month...This has occurred three times in my own family, first with me as the opposition; next my daughter has the conjunct in her 4th house; then my granddaughter, now 16, has the opposition in her chart...and oh, the rows she has with her mother...it is quite painful to watch, especially knowing there is not much the grandparents can do to intervene...in our cases, the power struggles have always been about Mother-daughter relationships.

[miquar]

Yes my Mum has Moon conjunct Pluto, and I have Moon in Scorpio and Pluto on the IC. Both my kids have Moon Pluto hard aspects and also both have Pluto on the IC. There's similar stuff in my brother's branch of the family too.

My daughter's Mum has Moon conjunct Pluto in the first house, with Virgo rising.

Someone just approached me about their chart, and (s)he is particularly interested in the 8th house. I hope no one minds but I encouraged her/him to post the chart on this thread. There is such a wealth of insight being expressed by you all in this thread, and also it will serve as a kind of case study to flesh out our reflections and interpretations on our own lives and charts.

[scorpio176]

Hi Miquar I think this is the thread you were talking about well here is my chart any input from you or other's would be greatly appreciated. I will write some of my experiences after I get some feedback on this just because I don't want what I write to influence anyone who tries to decipher my chart.

[Blackempress]

Originally Posted by miquar

Yes my Mum has Moon conjunct Pluto, and I have Moon in Scorpio and Pluto on the IC. Both my kids have Moon Pluto hard aspects and also both have Pluto on the IC. There's similar stuff in my brother's branch of the family too.

Kimbermoon added a new feature while I was figuring out your personal experience. Would be interesting to study the common cause of these power struggles.

I can imagine it to be difficult considering the unyielding power of such strong individuals yet perhaps as she grows older she might understand the dynamics of real relationships & the need to grow with/without them. Either way it seems a pain that would linger. Don't doubt that you'd have deliberately missed anything in trying to be the best possible parent Miquar. You are a wonderful being.

[miquar]

Thanks for your very kind words, blackempress.

Hi Scorpio176. The eye immediately goes to the 8th house in this chart, regardless of this being the theme of this thread. The 8th house planets are also in Scorpio and include Pluto, which closely conjuncts Sun and Venus here. One way to look at this is that there's a very pure theme here.

Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house can be thought of as parallel to one another from their respective systems (i.e. planets signs and houses.) They all represent the radical transformation which potentially arises out of the relinquishing (or unwilling loss) of control. People such as yourself, who have these energies emphasised, are attuned to that which has been suppressed by societies and individuals (including of course yourself). There is a need to know this hidden realm, and to integrate it into everyday life. But this need itself may be suppressed, due to fear of change, of losing control, of being alienated from others, of ending up being nothing if the known self is offered up for sacrifice to a greater power.

The trust necessary for willing participation in the Pluto/Scorpio/8th house process doesn't always come easily. The attunement mentioned above can feel overwhelming in early life. Expressing the unspoken may have invited resentment and alienation from others, and the humiliation of being controlled by others may have been a part of life. This is possible because other people in the early life would have shared the same kind of attunement, and they may have responded in their own lack of trust in life - their own sense of defeat by greater forces - by clinging onto whatever control they could.

The Sun and Venus both say a great deal about how we find joy and what we value. These planets are a barometer of self-worth, self-love and the capacity for happiness. Through the Sun and Venus we create that which we find valuable, beautiful and special, and see our essence reflected in these creations.

So putting the Pluto/Scorpio/8th house together with the Sun and Venus, there is a sense that the joy of being yourself and the urge to create is closely tied to the process of transformation through the encounter with the 'other within' and perhaps with social taboos. This could mean that you find and celebrate your unique identity by acting as a channel for that which is suppressed by society. You may identify with that which seeks recognition, and it is important that you maintain individual values and morality while at the same time honouring the impersonal forces of social evolution.

A very strong sense of purpose is ultimately implied by Sun Pluto in Scorpio in the 8th, but in some cases there is a need to free the sense of being a valid individual from a swamp of difficult emotions, including perhaps self-destructive tendencies and intense resentment and will to power. A kind of purifying process can be necessary before the incredible power offered by this placement can be used in a truly creative way. This purifying may involve the burning away of egotistical desires which arose out of an early sense of defeat. The goal of the process is the formation of a sense of self which includes a genuine sense of self-validity along side a willingness to yield when appropriate. And this is still accompanied by the depth of insight arising from the attunement to that which is hidden, along side tremendous reserves of determination and stamina.

Moving out from the Scorpio stellium, a triangle is formed with Saturn in Capricorn and the angular Moon in Virgo. This configuration suggests a likelihood of a need for control on some level. Both the Moon and Saturn are concerned with finding a protective matrix within which to live, and here they form a trine in earth signs. The element of earth adapts to life through understanding and utilising material world, and needs to feel that the world is orderly, secure and manageable. Saturn in Capricorn could bring out the possible defensiveness of the Scorpio placements, while Moon in Virgo could add to Scorpio's tendency to self-scrutiny. There is a real sense of thoroughness about this triangle of planets in these signs - possibly compulsively so.

Integrity is vital. I would say that a large part of your life path involves accepting yourself for who are, while also working towards self-mastery and a worthwhile place in the world which reflects your true nature.

The Sun's placement is given added significance by its rulership of Jupiter in Leo. Jupiter in Leo suggests that your search for meaning and faith leads you to explore who you are as an individual, and that you believe in the power of the individual to shape her/his own life. This backs up the need for self-determination suggested by Saturn in Capricorn aspecting the Scorpio planets.

Jupiter is the traditional ruler of your Ascendant and Midheaven, so the way you make an impact on the world is coloured by this belief in individual self-expression (Leo), which in turn is coloured by your Scorpio/Pluto need to always seek deeper and deeper levels of self rather than being satisfied with a superficial definition of your essential self.

Jupiter also rules Mercury, which is in Jupiter's sign and natural house, the 9th. So the mind operates intuitively and seeks the broadest possible perspectives, finding meaningful ways of viewing the intense experiences of the 8th house. The mind is probably enthusiastic to learn, especially with Mars in Gemini in the 3rd. The restless and adaptable approach to learning perhaps complements the focus and determination of the Scorpio Capricorn energies very well. Although intellectual insecurity could combine with the possible defensiveness of Capricorn and Scorpio, and also the self-assuredness around beliefs of Jupiter in Leo.

Pisces rising is in accord with the watery Sun and Venus, and the chart as a whole seems to be predominantly water/earth. Your Moon in Virgo opposes the Pisces ascendant, so this sign polarity is very important for you, especially in the way you relate to others. You may fluctuate between the two signs, sometimes being very orderly and at others more chaotic. Both signs are concerned with adapting to the wider world and synthesising with it, Pisces through abandoning the self to the greater whole, and Virgo through refining the self and finding a useful niche for that self.

Water is often self-protective because it concerns the feeling realm. With Sun in Scorpio and Pisces rising, you may tend towards a camouflaged manner of self-expression. In other words, you may try to express yourself and achieve your aims without standing out too much. You may be very perceptive to the feelings of others - able to sense hidden motivations. The potential for healing others is huge, assuming that you have been able to make peace with your own intensity.

If you don't feel able to relax into, and enjoy, intimate relationships, then this is likely to be an indication that some of the issues mentioned above need addressing. Although you may one day reach a point where sexual relationships seem superficial, this needs to be genuine rather than something you tell yourself because of a fear of allowing another to influence your feeling state.

Your chart brings to mind the song 'Joga' by Bjork, though I'm not sure I could fully articulate why. Anyway, the rest of this thread is worth reading as people have put some really insightful stuff about the 8th house, and hopefully others will look at your chart too, and you'll add to the discussion with your own experiences.

Best wishes,

[EdgesOnCircles]

Scorpio 176 - I thought your moon placement was interesting but I'm not a professional astrologist and I enjoy links such as cafeastrology.com Anywho, like Miquar already mentioned, the moon opposing the Ascendant or conjuncting the Descendant is a very important aspect in your chart.

You are intuitive, sympathetic, and sensitive, quick to sense the needs and emotions of others around you. However, the tendency to over-identify with the feelings of others can be draining, and you can lose touch with where your feelings start and end. Your manner is expressive and emotionally animated--you come across as either emotional or caring/nurturing (or both), and generally likable. - Cafeastrology

I also noticed the list of celebrities with the same aspect: Kathy Bates (even as a crazy bat in Misery, who could hate her?), Geena Davis (hesitated to exterminate her fly boyfriend - if that's not caring, I don't know what is ), Charlie Sheen (let's get this straight...he MADE Two and a Half Men. Sheen could go back to his drinking habits and the audience will still love him.).

[scorpio176]

Thank you both for your inputs and miquar you were pretty much spot on this time with what you said. Everybody always tells me I'm the most likeable person they know. I also take other peoples feelings to heart and when others suffer I suffer with them. Sometimes it feels like I'm walking on egg shells sometimes so as not to hurt anyone else. I also have a problem making myself happy because it always seems that in order to do that I have to hurt someone else and I'm not selfish enough to do it.

[scorpio176]

One question though why joga?

[I cee]

"You may identify with that which seeks recognition, and it is important that you maintain individual values and morality while at the same time honouring the impersonal forces of social evolution."

This rang home for me!

Can I ask Miquar why you chose Jupiter rather than Neptune as Asc ruler?

Just a curious centaur!

[miquar]

Originally Posted by scorpio176

One question though why joga?

Hi. Just because the lyrics to this song seem to me to reflect the perspective and priorities suggested by this chart.