Significance of Critical Degrees in a Chart

[StillOne]

Well, I figure it's a sign that this thread was bumped today as I was thinking (yet again) about my Gemini Moon in the critical degree of 17deg 21'48" (12th house).

Searching the web shows some bad news regarding this position... Our own AW says that this degree is a degree of homicide!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dicti...al-degrees.php

Does anyone have any other insight? I swear I'm not a killer...

[dr. farr]

Originally Posted by Sandra0406

From 29 - 30 degrees is actually 30th degree,from 0 to 1 degree is 1st degree...This means for example when a planet located at the 13th degree it's actually 14th degree...or maybe I'm wrong?

Actually the modern sign numeration takes us back one degree from the oldtime sign numeration lists; eg, the oldtime 30th degree is now the 29th degree; a planet located in the 13th oldstyle degree is now in the 12th degree using modern sign numeration; the exaltation degree of the Moon, given in oldstyle as 3 Taurus, is actually 2 Taurus using our contemporary sign numeration; all chart programs now set-up charts using modern sign numeration (unless you specifically program for oldstyle numeration) and it is unfortunate that the available lists of degrees (including Fall and exaltation degrees, critical degrees, elevated and pitted degrees, male/female degree, etc etc) have NOT corrected to the modern sign numeration-I think this has misled many, particularly of our Traditionalist friends, who unknowingly are applying oldstyle numeration to charts that are actually erected using the modern sign numerations!

[Sandra0406]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Actually the modern sign numeration takes us back one degree from the oldtime sign numeration lists; eg, the oldtime 30th degree is now the 29th degree; a planet located in the 13th oldstyle degree is now in the 12th degree using modern sign numeration; the exaltation degree of the Moon, given in oldstyle as 3 Taurus, is actually 2 Taurus using our contemporary sign numeration; all chart programs now set-up charts using modern sign numeration (unless you specifically program for oldstyle numeration) and it is unfortunate that the available lists of degrees (including Fall and exaltation degrees, critical degrees, elevated and pitted degrees, male/female degree, etc etc) have NOT corrected to the modern sign numeration-I think this has misled many, particularly of our Traditionalist friends, who unknowingly are applying oldstyle numeration to charts that are actually erected using the modern sign numerations!

Ok!Thanks!So now we have 29 degrees, not 30...

[dr. farr]

Almost right: we still have 30 degrees in each sign, only now we count (numerate) from 0 to 29 (whereas in the oldtime they counted from 1 to 30)

[Sandra0406]

Ok!Thanks!

[luxsaxon]

It is said that the 13th degree of cancer is critical. I have Saturn in cancer, 12 degrees 34'3". Can this be considered a critical degree?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by luxsaxon

It is said that the 13th degree of cancer is critical. I have Saturn in cancer, 12 degrees 34'3". Can this be considered a critical degree?

IMO, according to dr. farr, if using a natal chart that has been created using modern sign numeration, then:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Actually the modern sign numeration takes us back one degree from the oldtime sign numeration lists; eg, the oldtime 30th degree is now the 29th degree;

therefore - and in fact dr. farr specifically mentions that:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

....a planet located in the 13th oldstyle degree is now in the 12th degree using modern sign numeration;

Which means fwiw IMO your Saturn at 12 Cancer 34' 3" IS located in the 'oldtime sign numeration of the 13th degree of Cancer' and IS therefore located in a Critical Degree.... HOWEVER IMO we require a confirmation from dr.farr on this matter

Originally Posted by dr. farr

...the exaltation degree of the Moon, given in oldstyle as 3 Taurus, is actually 2 Taurus using our contemporary sign numeration; all chart programs now set-up charts using modern sign numeration (unless you specifically program for oldstyle numeration) and it is unfortunate that the available lists of degrees (including Fall and exaltation degrees, critical degrees, elevated and pitted degrees, male/female degree, etc etc) have NOT corrected to the modern sign numeration-I think this has misled many, particularly of our Traditionalist friends, who unknowingly are applying oldstyle numeration to charts that are actually erected using the modern sign numerations!

[Alice McDermott]

Originally Posted by tikana

HI

you are quite welcome

I did some digging

if a planet is NOT in critical degree even by 1 second, it is NOT in in critical degree. It has to be in the same degre 00 second to 59 second.
Moderns manage to misquote the ancients.

12 deg 51 is not 13 deg therefore it is NOT critical degree.

Critical degrees are the intersection of the lunar Moon Mansions with the Solar Zodiac. They are spaced 12 degrees 51 minutes apart as that is the average daily motion of the Moon and is therefore the cusp of each Lunar Mansion.

So, as Tikana says, there is no orb at all for critical degrees, either a planet is on the exact spot or it is not on a critical degree. In my personal astrology I do allow a little wriggle room of a few minutes, but never a degree or over.

By the way, these degrees aren't 'bad' they are just emphasised because of the connection between the lunar and solar zodiacs. In this case the word 'critical' can be taken in the wrong way, the word responds best to this dictionary interpretation: "involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.; judicial: a critical analysis."

Alice

[dr. farr]

Yes it is quite true that there are no orbs for the degree-either the planet (or cusp or Lot, etc) is IN a specific degree, or not. However it also depends upon which list of degrees one is using: if it is a list which has not been corrected to modern sign numeration, then the degrees on that list must be taken back 1 degree to match the modern sign numeration: for example, all uncorrected lists give 3 Taurus as the exaltation degree of the Moon-in modern sign numeration this would have to be taken back 1 degree, so in modern sign numeration the exaltation degree falls @ 2 Taurus (not at 3 Taurus)-see the notes given on the skyscript degree lists, for verification of this fact about translating oldtime degree numeration to the numeration used now on all astrological formatting programs...

[Alice McDermott]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Yes it is quite true that there are no orbs for the degree-either the planet (or cusp or Lot, etc) is IN a specific degree, or not. However it also depends upon which list of degrees one is using: if it is a list which has not been corrected to modern sign numeration, then the degrees on that list must be taken back 1 degree to match the modern sign numeration: for example, all uncorrected lists give 3 Taurus as the exaltation degree of the Moon-in modern sign numeration this would have to be taken back 1 degree, so in modern sign numeration the exaltation degree falls @ 2 Taurus (not at 3 Taurus)-see the notes given on the skyscript degree lists, for verification of this fact about translating oldtime degree numeration to the numeration used now on all astrological formatting programs...

Modern astrologers use the exact degree, minute and often second, but this precise work wasn't as important in older times so they rounded up the degrees. They started the degrees at 1, so anything between 0-1 degrees was called 1 degree, anything between 1-2 degrees was called 2 degrees ... and so on.

The first 12 degrees 51 minutes of a Moon Mansion are exactly that, 0 - 12'51', but this was rounded to 13 degrees.

In reality the Moon Mansions (based on the average movement of the Moon per day) of 12 degrees 51 minutes start at 0 Aries so this is the correct degree for the start of the second Moon Mansion, 25 degrees 42 minutes for the start of the third Moon Mansion ... and so on.

Alice

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Yes it is quite true that there are no orbs for the degree-either the planet (or cusp or Lot, etc) is IN a specific degree, or not. However it also depends upon which list of degrees one is using: if it is a list which has not been corrected to modern sign numeration, then the degrees on that list must be taken back 1 degree to match the modern sign numeration: for example, all uncorrected lists give 3 Taurus as the exaltation degree of the Moon-in modern sign numeration this would have to be taken back 1 degree, so in modern sign numeration the exaltation degree falls @ 2 Taurus (not at 3 Taurus) -see the notes given on the skyscript degree lists, for verification of this fact about translating oldtime degree numeration to the numeration used now on all astrological formatting programs...

98 word quote sourced from http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...620b3a0dfbc833

“… 'Critical degrees' illustrate that modern astrology drifts unrecognisably from original sources. There is no debate that original Arabic lunar mansions related to sidereal system of 28 mansions defined by particular fixed stars – unambiguously stated - Christopher Warnock 'Mansions of the Moon'.

Arab era 'Critical degrees' related to fixed stars marking sidereal lunar mansions varying in size from 3º to 27º whose position obviously shifted in tropical.

By the time of Cornelius Agrippa European astrologers switched to a set of tropical lunar mansions. Unlike the sidereal mansions these were standardised to approximately twelve degrees and fifty one minutes.”

[luxsaxon]

Originally Posted by Alice McDermott

By the way, these degrees aren't 'bad' they are just emphasised because of the connection between the lunar and solar zodiacs. In this case the word 'critical' can be taken in the wrong way, the word responds best to this dictionary interpretation: "involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.; judicial: a critical analysis."

Alice

Thank you!