Hellenistic delineations

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Originally Posted by MSO

From what I can tell, the Babylonians' astrology was very primitive. I may be wrong, I'm just going by a pretty faint memory of what I've read right now (it's 5a.m. and I've been up since 10am yesterday), but the only thing I can say came from Babylonian astrology is the decanates. I don't think they really even used signs, I remember reading they basically clocked the motion of the Moon and some stars that moved quite frequently, and how they relate to the Moon's movements. They used a system of coordinates based on approximate 10 degree sections, leading to the decanates we use today, instead of "signs."

I may be wrong too, but I was under the impression that the decanates were Egyptian in origin. The Bablyonians used a zodiac, but they didn't use our solar zodiac for the longest time. Instead they used an 18 sign...I guess we'll call it lunar zodiac and we know they did identify constellations and star groupings around 2000 BCE. The Enuma An Enlil has shown us many of the omens that they considered (though none come to my mind right now), but their rudimentary knowledge of astronomy made the kind of astrology we do today much too technical for them at the time. They weren't really able to predict things very far in advance.

[byjove]

That's very inspiring tsmall...I feel encouraged to do the same. I really think that that would allow for easier referencing than ebooks.

[waybread]

tsmall, the photo was a bit dark from my end, but gosh!-- is that a live 50 lb. porocupine? Even if it's taxidermed, I hope you don't brush against it accidentally while studying Vettius Valens at your desk. Do they actually eat people? Or just skewer them occasionally?

Here is what Ritchie Valens, descendant of Vettius Valens, wrote in a recently discovered notebook shortly before his death (with Buddy Holly and The Big Bopper) on that fateful plane crash in 1959 (which could be accurately predicted by computing the hyleg, almuten, alcocoden, and Arabic part of plane crashes):

"Mars in conjunction Saturn and Nibiru, setting under the rays of the sun in a bicorporeal sign, causes the native to embrace giant African procupines, leading to death from bleeding through a thousand tiny lacerations. If Jupiter is in aspect, he will surive; but if not, wild dogs will finish him off."

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

I may be wrong too, but I was under the impression that the decanates were Egyptian in origin. The Bablyonians used a zodiac, but they didn't use our solar zodiac for the longest time. Instead they used an 18 sign...I guess we'll call it lunar zodiac and we know they did identify constellations and star groupings around 2000 BCE. The Enuma An Enlil has shown us many of the omens that they considered (though none come to my mind right now), but their rudimentary knowledge of astronomy made the kind of astrology we do today much too technical for them at the time. They weren't really able to predict things very far in advance.

Rumen Kolev is one of the few living practitioners of Babylonian Astrology here's a link to his website "Babylonian Astrosophy" http://www.babylonianastrology.com/

Originally Posted by tsmall

waybread, this one's for you. Hope you appreciate it, lol.



Who says modern people can't potentially be consumed by wild beasts? In case you can't quite read it (the image is small) that binder is my sheet protected copy of Valens' Anthologies....

btw, yes, that is a 50 lb African crested porcupine under my desk.

Interesting... medieval astrologers associate Virgo with small animals and gardening

[waybread]

A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal! Sagittarius seems more allied with exotic pets....

tsmall, assuming that this critter is alive and has the run of the house, how exactly do you entice it out from under your desk? Deocoying it with hair brushes or pin cushions? What does it eat? Is it paper-trained or does it use a litter box?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by waybread

A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal! Sagittarius seems more allied with exotic pets....

"It's all relative IMO" Einstein commented while visiting a zoo.

Relative to an elephant, a bear, a giraffe, a lion, a tiger, a gorilla, a hippopotamus, a crocodile... a 50lb crested African Porcupine is a small animal associated with Virgo and small animals

Furthermore, "exotic" is relative to locale

[waybread]

Quite right. "Exotic" relative to New Hampshire.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Interesting... medieval astrologers associate Virgo with small animals and gardening

Originally Posted by waybread

A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal!

It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...

Unnecessary IMO to try that out Kaiousei no Senshi because obviously according to your useful definition, a 50lb African crested porcupine is clearly a small animal and associated with Virgo.

Relative to being located in a zoo in New Hampshire,a 50lb African crested porcupine is not exotic either

[waybread]

Sort of like those ads for Preparation H-- ruled by Virgo (health) and Scorpio for......

Dictionary Def. of exotic: "Belonging by nature or origin to another part of the world, not native, foreign; an exotic plant. 2. Strangely different and faxcinating...from the Greek exotikos "foreign."

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Unnecessary IMO to try that out Kaiousei no Senshi because obviously according to your useful definition, a 50lb African crested porcupine is clearly a small animal and associated with Virgo.

Yes, that was part of the joke.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

Yes, that was part of the joke.

Thanks for explaining that! Regarding 'exotic' animals, due to the importation of animals from all areas of the planet, in the 21st century, most animals can be found almost anywhere in the world - often as pets, sometimes the pets escape and establish themselves "in the wild" in their new country and interbreed. Also there are hundreds of zoos... not to mention numerous exhibitions for public entertainment such as Aquariums

[waybread]

Biologists call them exotic animals. You kind of have to look at where the species originated. "Native" is distinct from "exotic" or imported animals that are "captive bred", &c.

Speaking of dry senses of humour, JA-- maybe yours is even drier than mine. I don't believe this "debate" is serious. Do you?

tsmall is the authority!

[JUPITERASC]

IMO a zoo comprising small animals is Virgoan... small animals as defined by Kaiousei no Senshi's useful post

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...

[tsmall]

You guys (and gals) are cracking me up.

Ok, a few answers to a few questions...

byjove, I am hoping you were referring to my idea of printing Valens and encasing it in sheet protectors in a binder, and not the inspiration of having a porcupine under one's desk to "prod" learning?

waybread, yes it is alive, no it doesn't have free run of the house. We do have pets (two cats and a dog) but this indeed exotic animal has both an indoor and outdoor enclosure (along with his companion.) As our zoo is not open to the public, it travels exclusively. Because the animals need to be accustomed to handlers, and the public, they do need to be "socialized." To lure him out from under the desk requires a lot of grit, a sweet potato, and snapping. He responds to snapping, and if we ignore the 16 inch quills that can indeed inflict much harm (note the nervousness of my smile?) he is actually quite friendly. Yes, quill pigs will eat carrion, so if I bleed out from an encounter, Domino would likely eat me...and with Jupiter on the ASC, probably before the wild dogs get me... (Disclaimer...the animals here are not pets, other than the domestic ones mentioned. It requires licensing, permits, and over 2 million dollars in insurance to have them. I do not advocate exotic animals as pets. They are, and always will be wild. As even my youngest knows, anything with a mouth can bite. And usually does at the worst possible moment.)

Kaiousei no Senshi and JUPITERASC, yes, at 50 lbs, an African crested porcupine probably counts as a small animal. I for sure wouldn't want to try riding one...so Virgo indeed? All of our animals here could be considered "small" with the possible exception of the Sulcata tortoises. They can carry an adult human on their backs...if the human can keep his balance, that is.

So, to tie it back to the astrology (heaven forbid this fun get deleted as off topic!) Virgo rules small animals, but tsmall isn't the zookeeper. She just lives here. So, how much did the ancients use derived houses? And would we look to tsmall's 7th (for her husband, who is the real authority) and then the 6th from that, to see? Or, in tsmall's chart, how could we find a life in a zoo?

[sandstone]

lol - good point on the derived houses.. might explain the synergy between houses opposite one another really well here.. now everyone can go animal on that one, lol..

[byjove]

I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards? Also can it help being under the Sun's beams?

My scenario:

Day chart

Saturn in 6th whole sign of Sagg, retrograde, out of sect, ruled by Jupiter
POF in 6th whole sign of Sagg, ruled by Jupiter
Jupiter in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, within 15 degrees of Sun, ruled by Mars

Sun in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, ruled by Mars (Mars joys because Sun is exalted, Mars in 12th whole sign in Gemini)

Does the strength of the Sun save his trigon friends? Both Saturn and Jupiter have afflictions - out of sect Saturn and retrograde, Jupiter under the Sun's beams, but both are in their trigon associates sign.

I cannot figure out the Kurios either.


Ascendant sign. Planets in the Ascendant sign and bounds of the ascending degree. My ascending degree is 27, Mercury is at 27 degrees.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant. That's the Moon, joy in house 3 Virgo.
Moon and its Domicile Lord. As above, it's lord is Mercury in Pisces, benefiting from the company of exalted Venus.
Tenth sign from ascendant and its Domicile Lord. Aries, ruler Mars, Mars in 12th of Gemini in joy because Sun exalted.
Lot of Fortune and its Domicile Lord. In Sagg, Jupiter in sect in 10th but under Sun's beams.
Any planets that make phasis* in the chart. Should also include planets that make a first or second station 7 days before or after nativity. Who, what and where?
The bound lord of the pre-natal lunation. Huh?

As for trigon lords, if the Sun is the predominator of my chart, then Mars ruled the 1st third of my life, followed by the Sun then Jupiter - things were fantastic until early 20s, much trickier now, yet the Sun is perhaps the best placed in my chart.

[tsmall]

byjove, you know I'm still learning same as you, but a few thoughts?

Originally Posted by byjove

I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards? Also can it help being under the Sun's beams? I don't know the answer about some of the mitigations, but I don't <think> it's necessarily a bad thing to have the sect malefic retrograde in your chart. Limits the amount of harm it can do...

My scenario:

Day chart

Saturn in 6th whole sign of Sagg, retrograde, out of sect, ruled by Jupiter
POF in 6th whole sign of Sagg, ruled by Jupiter
Jupiter in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, within 15 degrees of Sun, ruled by Mars

Sun in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, ruled by Mars (Mars joys because Sun is exalted, Mars in 12th whole sign in Gemini)

Does the strength of the Sun save his trigon friends? Both Saturn and Jupiter have afflictions - out of sect Saturn and retrograde, Jupiter under the Sun's beams, but both are in their trigon associates sign. Just to check that you are using Dorothean triplicities? Also, I'm not sure if it's Hellenistic or just traditional (I tend to think the 1st, but I'd have to check the reference again) that some planets do "ok" when they are combust or under the beams...ah, it was the Persian astrologer Abu Ma'shar that said that Jupiter under the beams "is like a man who loves justice, is honest and got free from his bonds, and so is mild, well-disposed toward everything, kind and merciful."

I cannot figure out the Kurios either.


Ascendant sign. Planets in the Ascendant sign and bounds of the ascending degree. My ascending degree is 27, Mercury is at 27 degrees.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant. That's the Moon, joy in house 3 Virgo.
Moon and its Domicile Lord. As above, it's lord is Mercury in Pisces, benefiting from the company of exalted Venus.
Tenth sign from ascendant and its Domicile Lord. Aries, ruler Mars, Mars in 12th of Gemini in joy because Sun exalted.
Lot of Fortune and its Domicile Lord. In Sagg, Jupiter in sect in 10th but under Sun's beams.
Any planets that make phasis* in the chart. Should also include planets that make a first or second station 7 days before or after nativity. Who, what and where?
The bound lord of the pre-natal lunation. Huh? The prenatal lunation is the syzygy..you look at the chart to see which occured most closely prior to the birth, a full moon, or a new moon. That is the "lunation."

As for trigon lords, if the Sun is the predominator of my chart, then Mars ruled the 1st third of my life, followed by the Sun then Jupiter - things were fantastic until early 20s, much trickier now, yet the Sun is perhaps the best placed in my chart.

Remember that there are many time lord/chronocrator methods, so you need to know what area of life you want to examine before you decide which to use...

Oh, and I wanted to mention that Saturn is still in sect in your chart. All your diurnal planets are naturally in sect, all of your nocturnal ones not.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by byjove

I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards?

Here is one of the comments I posted on the hellenistic delineation of retrograde planets at the "Views on Retrogradation" thread byjove at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=374327#post374327

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Vettius Valens tells us that when a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is "not fit to conduct its business" because it is described as “walking backwards”.

IN CONTRAST

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified as Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight says, Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or “an appearance that speaks”.

So, two thousand years ago, astrologers considered a Retrograde planet as "walking backwards" and therefore unable to work well.

EXCEPT under the special circumstances when that planet makes a station and is for example, stationary Retrograde, then that planet is intensified because it is "making an appearance" and "dramatically showing something"

IMO then, based on these ancient ideas, one could say that a stationary Retrograde planet is dramatically drawing our attention to something.....

Originally Posted by byjove

Also can it help being under the Sun's beams?

If a planet is in its own domicile, exaltation et al then Schmidt translates Valens as "it is as if the planet is in its own covered chariot and thus protected from combustion and/or the Sun's beams" - Thus there is mitigation

[byjove]

tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory.

jupiterasc - I've run out of thanks already today, but thank you! I have the Jupiter matter cleared up! He's good to go then. I have searched for phasis and cannot find an explanation, what is it exactly?

As for the retrograde position of Saturn, I see in my year of birth:

| MAR 31, 1987 | 04:09 AM | 21SA10 | SA SR |
| AUG 19, 1987 | 07:22 AM | 14SA32 | SA SD |

http://www.astropro.com/features/tab.../sa-sta09.html

So, being born in April, Saturn was retrograde just 2 weeks. So I should consider that the first station?

(Saturn is squared by my 1st ruler, touches my Sun, conjoins my POF, rules my 7th and is squared by Venus, if I could get him on the good side, it would surely be as much luck as anything Jupiter could provide...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by byjove

tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory.

jupiterasc - I've run out of thanks already today, but thank you! I have the Jupiter matter cleared up! He's good to go then. I have searched for phasis and cannot find an explanation, what is it exactly?

As for the retrograde position of Saturn, I see in my year of birth:

| MAR 31, 1987 | 04:09 AM | 21SA10 | SA SR |
| AUG 19, 1987 | 07:22 AM | 14SA32 | SA SD |

http://www.astropro.com/features/tab.../sa-sta09.html

So, being born in April, Saturn was retrograde just 2 weeks. So I should consider that the first station?

(Saturn is squared by my 1st ruler, touches my Sun, conjoins my POF, rules my 7th and is squared by Venus, if I could get him on the good side, it would surely be as much luck as anything Jupiter could provide...

From memory I recall that Phasis refers to a planet that is making a heliacal rising within seven days of the birth - i.e. seven days before or seven days after the nativity. Anyhow, here's a great link to a discussion on Phasis at ACT astrology forum on Schmidt's Hellenistic thread http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34&start=10

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by byjove

tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory.

Um, I think what you are missing is that you have a day chart...so all your diurnal planets are automatically "in sect." I believe there was a definition of hayz and halb earlier on this thread, but Saturn is in sect in your chart, just not as much as he could be. It's an important distinction, and I hope someone (JUPITERASC?) can correct me if I'm wrong, but the planets of the sect of the chart are more apt to work on the behalf of the native?

btw, thanks for the compliment, but still just a newb to this.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Um, I think what you are missing is that you have a day chart...so all your diurnal planets are automatically "in sect." I believe there was a definition of hayz and halb earlier on this thread, but Saturn is in sect in your chart, just not as much as he could be. It's an important distinction, and I hope someone (JUPITERASC?) can correct me if I'm wrong, but the planets of the sect of the chart are more apt to work on the behalf of the native?

btw, thanks for the compliment, but still just a newb to this .

I'm no expert either tsmall! Everything I have posted on this thread is gleaned from Robert Schmidts translation of Valens and/or Professor Riley's translation of Valens and/or ACT astrology forum http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4

byjove these two comments explain sect and phasis very basically Chris Brennan and Zoidsoft are the two Hellenistic experts of our forum

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Conditions relative to Sun then:

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station or from second station up to the heliacal setting, the planet is capable of appearing and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified [Schmidt says that Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”].

Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth. Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15º standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions.

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”.

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

The Hellenistic Concept of Sect: Sect is just one word for a group of people with a common interest forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. e.g. a political party or faction united by common interests or beliefs especially concerned with their own narrow interests . Some planets belong to one sect, and some to the other. The two sects are diurnal and nocturnal – i.e. day and night.

The Sun is the leader of the diurnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is the leader of the nocturnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Mars and Venus.

If Mercury rises before the Sun—if he’s a morning star—then Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect.

But if Mercury sets after the Sun—if he’s an evening star—then Mercury belongs to the nocturnal sect.

So, those are the two sects, their leaders, and their members.

What sect signifies
What is meant by “being in sect” or “being in the sect of favour” is simply that planets are happiest if they are in an area of a natal chart that is in sync with their sect

So, for example, a nocturnal Mars is not going to be too happy in a diurnal chart and a diurnal Saturn is not going to be too happy in a nocturnal chart.

Similarly, in politics, two sects such as the Republicans and the Democrats each want to be in power and are unhappy and could potentially cause disruption for the other elected opposition party. In the booklet "Night & Day, Planetary sect in Astrology", Robert Hand writes on page 6, second paragraph:

"Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly..... the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. Diurnal planets work best in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets in nocturnal charts. That the condition of the chart is the most important of these three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the charts diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign/placement"

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by waybread

One reason why I don't think I want to practice Hellenistic astrology although I've been reading a lot of it lately, is because so many of the interpretations are just seem dire to the point of being silly. So how does one practice a reasonably authentic Hellenistic astrology without the sensationalistic interpretations?

BUT to be realistic, 'dire' events do occur from time to time - just reading the news media confirms that fact!

Originally Posted by waybread

Valens also is one guy who loaded his text with a lot of sensationalist and dire predictions. Not my cup of tea, but somebody else might appreciate them.

Sensational events do occur though! As evidenced by news reports

Originally Posted by waybread

More generally, according to Rhetorius the Egyptian (sec. 77)
you are in danger of being killed by "wild beasts" if your Mars is the ruler of the sign (i.e., Scorpio or Aries) of the 8th house and the house is "impedited" (??)without being aspected by Jupiter or Venus or if Mars is aspected by the sun.....

QUOTE:

Lion killed volunteer at California big cat sanctuary after the worker climbed into the animals cage.

Dale Anderson, has run the zoo since 1993, cried as he read short statement about the intern's death, extending his thoughts and prayers to victim's family and friends.

Investigators are trying to find out why the woman was inside the enclosure and what might have provoked the attack.

Nicole Paquette, vice president of Humane Society of United States, animal welfare charity, said:

"She should have never been in the enclosure with him.

These are big cats that are extremely dangerous."

Originally Posted by waybread

You know, while death by animal attacks in the wild might have happened in late antiquity, I wonder if those death forecasts refer to something like Christians or convicted criminals having to fend off lions in the Colosseum. (cf. Androcles and the Lion.)

That certainly seems a possibility in antiquity

However, evidence regarding the 20th and 21st Centuries is easier to confirm http://news.sky.com/story/1061203/li...t-big-cat-park

"Last year - i.e. 2012 - according to Big Cat Rescue Sanctuary in Tampa, Florida, at least 21 people, including five children, have been killed and 246 mauled by exotic cats in the US since 1990.

Over that period, 254 cats escaped and 143 were killed.

Originally Posted by waybread

...With a Mars-sun contact, you are also in danger of being crucified or beheaded, so watch it.

Beheading is a not unusual occurrence even in today's 'civilized world'!

- Mexico for example is frequently in the news regarding drug-cartel related beheading

Unfortunately murders where the victim is beheaded have occurred worldwide - including US

[waybread]

Has anyone done the horoscope interpretation on victims of predator attacks?