Chiromancy (Palmistry)

[NorthNodePisces]

@dr. farr: I hear you. I just don't see how that can be used to delineate a chart in tropical astrology, other than giving things room to move and to be themselves, instead of everything being one.

@Zonark: In the view of astrology, expanding in that way is increasing but not giving more substance(just empty space), so can instead be considered a hot quality, not wet or even dry. Compacting would be cold instead of wet. Condensing would be cold and wet. What you're saying can be an important thing in scientific circumstances, but when considering the dry and wet philosophy in Astrology, the line must be drawn somewhere to differentiate. I wouldn't want to confuse the cold and moist Moon with the hot and dry Mars, for example(thanks Ptolemy). Maybe if I used different words in place of those, it'll make more sense: hot = active(yang), cold = static(passive, inactive, unchanging, whatever, as long as it's yin), dry = separation, wet = connection. So Fire is active and separating(an active individualist, so Aries being cardinal is an initiating, active individualist, Leo being fixed is an unadaptable, active individualist, Sagittarius being mutable is an adaptable, active individualist, follow this same basic pattern with all the remaining elements), Air is active and connecting(an active socialist), Earth is static and separating(a conservative individualist), Water is static and connecting(a conservative socialist). I'm not, by the way, describing political stances here.

Since you count the space in between, why not count the space around it and beyond too? Everything was once connected, why not measure towards the now separated objects also? That point of view isn't useful for the philosophy of Astrology, but it does nonetheless exist. Instead of using the dollar bill analogy, let's say I have one whole apple. Being the hot and moist Jupiter that I am, I want to increase the amount that I have. I don't cut the apple into smaller pieces and spread them apart to increase the number of apples that I have, instead I collect more. I'm still eating one whole apple whether it's cut into smaller pieces and spread apart, or as a whole.

Having written everything that I did, and after reading everything that you've wrote, it still makes sense to me that dryness is a factor in making the fingers shorter(Earth and Fire), while wetness makes the fingers longer(Water and Air). But this is only hypothetical.

[Zonark]

Originally Posted by NorthNodePisces

@dr. farr: I hear you. I just don't see how that can be used to delineate a chart in tropical astrology, other than giving things room to move and to be themselves, instead of everything being one.

@Zonark: In the view of astrology, expanding in that way is increasing but not giving more substance, so can instead be considered a hot quality, not wet or even dry. Compacting would be cold instead of wet. Condensing, would be cold and wet. What you're saying can be an important thing in scientific circumstances, but when considering the dry and wet philosophy in Astrology, the line must be drawn somewhere to differentiate. I wouldn't want to confuse the cold and moist Moon with the hot and dry Mars, for example(thanks Ptolemy). Maybe if I used different words in place of those, it'll make more sense: hot = active(yang), cold = static(passive, inactive, unchanging, whatever, as long as it's yin), dry = separation, wet = connection. So Fire is active and separating(an active individualist, so Aries being cardinal is an initiating, active individualist, Leo being fixed is an unadaptable, active individualist, Sagittarius being mutable is an adaptable, active individualist), Air is active and connecting(an active socialist), Earth is static and separating(a conservative individualist), Water is static and connecting(a conservative socialist). I'm not, by the way, describing political stances here.

Since you count the space in between, why not count the space around it and beyond too? Everything was once connected, why not measure towards the now separated objects also? That point of view isn't useful for the philosophy of Astrology, but it does nonetheless exist. Instead of using the dollar bill analogy, let's say I have one whole apple. Being the hot and moist Jupiter that I am, I want to increase the amount that I have. I don't cut the apples into smaller pieces and spread them apart to increase the number of apples that I have, instead I collect more. I'm still eating one whole apple whether it's cut into smaller pieces and spread apart, or as a whole.

Having written everything that I did, and reading everything that you've wrote, it still makes sense to me that dryness is a factor in making the fingers shorter(Earth and Fire), while wetness makes the fingers longer(Water and Air).

I agree that expanding/compacting would be hot/cold respectively rather than moist/dry. Quite so. This assertion is backed by particle physics as well, so there's really no contradiction with science
I do not mind the political metaphor, it is quite interesting actually in the interest of syncretic mysticism.

Counting the space in between, but not the space beyond is differentiated by using the principals of geometry! An object's area/volume are separate distinctions from its mass or its density. Defining the space that the object occupies is very important, regardless of whether or not the space is completely occupied by particles (and according to quantum physics, this is impossible). The boundaries are defined by the parameters of the object itself. A stick is a stick, while it is subjectively the air around it and all things in the universe simultaneously it is still a stick and the volume the stick occupies is not entirely filled with particles, it has empty spaces within it but it has the illusion of complete solidity due to particle relativity or more simply put, density. You see, the parallels are there.

Dryness can be a factor for shortening yes, but air strictly, no. My main point was that dryness is a potential quality of air, but only when paired with fire or warmth (or earth which would absorb any moisture from the air thus making it dry). An air hand is not strictly dry because it is ruled by Air, not Air and Fire or Air and Earth. Air is expansive and separating, like Fire. Water and Earth are more prone to density. Air has a mutable and dependent quality of moistness/dryness depending on the ratio of water/fire quality in relation to the air being quantified. Otherwise air can't be solely defined by dryness as it's merely a carrier. For a good example of this, try blowing on your hand and then dry exhaling without pursing your lips. Notice the significant difference? In the first breath, the hand becomes drier and the breath feels drier. In the second breath, the hand becomes moist and the breath carries moisture.

This is why an Air hand is not strictly ruled by dryness and thus is not shorter. Air is always expansive thus gives a tendency to length and expansion of the geometrical volume of an object. Dryness and wetness do not strictly effect the length of hands due to the reality of empty spaces and how different elements act within a vacuum (or ether, the 5th element, which as you can see is vitally important to these approximations).

Makes sense?

[NorthNodePisces]

@Zonark Yes that all makes sense. But I'm not talking about Air in relation to the other elements, that it 'dries' them. That's true. But Air by itself, is connective. It neutralizes. The circumstances around it, being the other elements, changes form because it's adaptable. Air doesn't dry itself. It connects with itself, and neutralizes.

[Zonark]

Originally Posted by Carmen C

Dear Zornak,
regarding my 2 destiny lines, it's difficult to me to describe since English is not my native language, but I will try and if I find a photo I send it to you.

On my Moon mount, which is not very pronounced, are several travel lines and there are 2 very obvious that I think are linked to my 2 country changes, one travel line ends on the diagonal fate line and the second important travel line above ends on the life line crossing both fate lines.

Both destiny lines are only by a 5mm not united in the space between the head and heartline.
At first sight the straight vertical destiny line (on the right, that means on the left from the life line like usual ) that comes from the wrist zone directly towards Saturn mount ends on the heart line but if you watch with a magnifying glass there is a very fine line upwards, like uncomplete, that could join the diagonal fate line on the left.
The diagonal fate line on the left is interrupted by the mercurial line, crosses straight through the head and reaches the headline, and from there in a very fine line it joines the Venus ring.
Mercurial line ends on the vertical destiny line, so there is a triangle formed by the mercurial line, the head line and the vertical destiny line. Through the middle of this triangle goes the diagonal fate line. The triangle is divided in to equal triangles by the Apolo line.
My Saturn mount is not on his place, it is between the Saturn finger and the Apolo finger and it is the most highest or bulging apart from the Apolo or Sun mount. On the Saturn mount there is nothing more outstanding apart from a lot vertical lines that cross my heartline in this zone.

Well I must say you're doing a superb job at using the English language.

What you're describing actually sounds like a completely different kind of line, not a second fate line. Looking at my hand I have the same kind of lines. I believe that the line you're describing is called the Line of the Sun, one of the minor lines! So discount everything about double destinies and let's look at what the Sun Line means when it crosses into Saturn and intersects with Fate. Going straight to the Mount of Saturn suggests a unity of Fate, Apollo and Saturn, so high achievement if a lot of work is put into artistic or Apollonian endeavors.

[Zonark]

Originally Posted by NorthNodePisces

@Zonark Yes that all makes sense. But I'm not talking about Air in relation to the other elements, that it 'dries' them. That's true. But Air by itself, is connective. It neutralizes. The circumstances around it, being the other elements, changes it's nature because it's adaptable. Air doesn't dry itself. It connects with itself, and neutralizes.

Yes correct, which is why it wouldn't make a hand shorter right?

[NorthNodePisces]

@Zonark I never said it would make it shorter, instead it makes it longer because it's connective.

[NorthNodePisces]

The fingers would stay shorter, when including everything else in the birth chart that isn't Air or Water, hypothetically.

[Zonark]

Oh okay, I misread your last post before my last reply as saying Air did make the hands shorter, had me confused

[NorthNodePisces]

No problem. This is an interesting topic, glad you brought it up.

[TransformingSelf]

You have an insightful finding of the linkages between the chart's aspects and hand's lines, Zonark. It actually brings back memories of the unresolved questions I had when I was studying palmistry. I remember talking about whether the lines even changed with a friend. My friend's view was that the lines faded and changed with use or impact to them, cleaning or bruising, so how could palmistry have any truths as fixed by its lines, that were constantly changing by such use. I had always seen the lines as fixed folds or creases in the skin, like indelible marks of writing on a page, that could not be affected by any impact to our hands. When looking at both right and left hands, I used to see the lines in each as similar in some people's hands and different in others. In people with right hand tendencies and different right hand lines, I interpreted the left hand lines as communicating inborn traits that were already in the person and the right hand lines as communicating developing traits or those that needed to be developed for the person to accomplish her or his goals as shown in the differences of line markings. In people with left hand tendencies and different left hand lines, I interpreted the right hand as communicating inborn traits and the left hand as communicating developing traits or those that needed to be developed for the person to accomplish her or his goals. In people with both hands having the same lines, the lines communicate settled traits as inborn traits being the same as the ones being developed for life goals to be accomplished. Just as with astrology, there are so many interpretations to palmistry.
Yes, I can see your Mars opposite Pluto as that straight line from the lower Mount of Mars to the Mount of Pluto in your left hand as an inborn tendency to act in the spur-of-the-moment before studying the implications of actions, but its absence in your right hand is telling that you have melded both spontaneous reaction with thoughtful study by your spontaneous study of the meaning and implications of your actions and hidden spiritual meanings that help you attain your life purpose.

[Zonark]

Originally Posted by TransformingSelf

You have an insightful finding of the linkages between the chart's aspects and hand's lines, Zonark. It actually brings back memories of the unresolved questions I had when I was studying palmistry. I remember talking about whether the lines even changed with a friend. My friend's view was that the lines faded and changed with use or impact to them, cleaning or bruising, so how could palmistry have any truths as fixed by its lines, that were constantly changing by such use. I had always seen the lines as fixed folds or creases in the skin, like indelible marks of writing on a page, that could not be affected by any impact to our hands. When looking at both right and left hands, I used to see the lines in each as similar in some people's hands and different in others. In people with right hand tendencies and different right hand lines, I interpreted the left hand lines as communicating inborn traits that were already in the person and the right hand lines as communicating developing traits or those that needed to be developed for the person to accomplish her or his goals as shown in the differences of line markings. In people with left hand tendencies and different left hand lines, I interpreted the right hand as communicating inborn traits and the left hand as communicating developing traits or those that needed to be developed for the person to accomplish her or his goals. In people with both hands having the same lines, the lines communicate settled traits as inborn traits being the same as the ones being developed for life goals to be accomplished. Just as with astrology, there are so many interpretations to palmistry.
Yes, I can see your Mars opposite Pluto as that straight line from the lower Mount of Mars to the Mount of Pluto in your left hand as an inborn tendency to act in the spur-of-the-moment before studying the implications of actions, but its absence in your right hand is telling that you have melded both spontaneous reaction with thoughtful study by your spontaneous study of the meaning and implications of your actions and hidden spiritual meanings that help you attain your life purpose.

thanks TransformingSelf.

Yes I do agree with your thoughts on the right/left hand lines. That's how most schools of thought in chiromancy think of it too. Do you notice any correspondences between your own palm lines and the aspects of your chart?

[Carmen C]

Originally Posted by Zonark

Well I must say you're doing a superb job at using the English language.

What you're describing actually sounds like a completely different kind of line, not a second fate line. Looking at my hand I have the same kind of lines. I believe that the line you're describing is called the Line of the Sun, one of the minor lines! So discount everything about double destinies and let's look at what the Sun Line means when it crosses into Saturn and intersects with Fate. Going straight to the Mount of Saturn suggests a unity of Fate, Apollo and Saturn, so high achievement if a lot of work is put into artistic or Apollonian endeavors.

Thanks Zornak, and I hope to improve to express better my ideas.
Well, I have actually apart from this strange line the Sun or Apollo Line (fine and partially broken) extending from the Sun mount towards the destiny line from the left (the usual destiny line). My Sun Line ends in the Neptune area , like Mercury line, both in the same point on the destiny line from the left.
This line that crosses diagonal from the Moon mount to Saturn mount can only be a second destiny line.
If I find something else about it, I'll let you know.

[TransformingSelf]

Hello Zonark,

What I could never resolve was whether the lines on the hand really did change, because I saw them as impressed in the skin. I had always thought that a person's hand line differences were there since birth and did not change in appearance or number, but grew in their directions along with the hand. But my friend did have a point because I later read the method of a palmist who spoke about how the lines change to represent the effects of pivotal life experiences. To confirm the changes of lines, there would need to be a study tracing hand lines from birth to adulthood and recording any changes to them.
I had not even compared my hand lines to my chart aspects until your question, but I still find hardly anything to say about them. It's easier for me to understand other people's lines and their meanings, but my own hand, though with few lines, defies any kind of apprehension.

[The_Saturnian]

On the discussion of triangles on the palm, I actually have 2 triangles myself. The first and more distinct of the two is on my right palm forming on the Mount of Saturn off the Line of Fate. (Indication of computer/internet addict :P and on a more serious note - spiritual enhancement). The second is a lot less visible and needs magnification on the same mount on my left hand. Triangles are said to be lucky charms for the subject, and as I understand their representation, they increase the magnitude or talents exponentially. So For instance as Carmen C as given a detailed account, a triangle formed off the Mercurial Line, will enhance communicational qualities/business acumen or even an increase in one's spiritual power.

Additionally I have an even more unusual mystery, if you'd like to call it, which I have never been able to find out by means of palmistry books or even information online. I was born with 12 fingers - an extra finger on the first phalanx of the Mercury finger on each hand. I do not have these fingers anymore as they were surgically removed approximately 7-10 days after my birth. One source that I have come across regarding this matter, according to ancient Vedic Palmistry ('Hast-Rekha Shastra' as it is formerly known), is that it is a gift from the Lord of Heavens. But I have never been able find a concrete answer for this oddity. British film/TV actress Gemma Arteton, said once in an interview that she was born with 2 extra fingers in exactly the same place as I had mine, when I was born. So if you want to know where exactly I mean they were on my hands when I was born - have a look at her interview on YouTube with Jonathan Ross. I wonder if it’s going to make me a star/famous Lol. Does anyone know what this means in Palmistry or at least have theory on this?

Finally, I also have red dot on my left hand on the Luna mount which is an indication of a nerve related illness, which I do suffer from. The Life Line on the same hand is actually broken (circa. my age 24/25), and between both of the parts of the Life Line which overlap, a cross has developed. However, two lines have crossed through the Life Line to form a square enclaving the dangerous cross. This square provides protection in such a circumstance and either protects the subject from illness or at the very most it can mitigate the duration of the illness.

Crosses are never good signs anywhere on a subject's palm, unless they are either located on the Mount of Jupiter or in the Great Quadrangle. (This is the part of the palm which is between the Heart Line and the Head Line, forming a rectangle).

I’m a keen student on the subject of Palmistry and am so glad that someone went the extra mile to commence a thread on this. It would be most interesting to hear some of the treasures that you all possess.

[Cascada]

I love palmistry i recently had a palmist do a reading for me.

[dhundhun]

In face-to-face consultation, I always confirm astrological readings with palm reading and vice-versa. Both go together to re-enforce the reading.

I matured in palmistry in early eighties (about 30 years ago).

[!4C]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

In face-to-face consultation, I always confirm astrological readings with palm reading and vice-versa. Both go together to re-enforce the reading.

I matured in palmistry in early eighties (about 30 years ago).

How do you interpret favorable signs like the star on the mount of saturn? I noticed that traditional palmistry, like traditional astrology, associates saturn with an incredible amount of vague negativity. I find the contrast rather laughable.

[dhundhun]

Originally Posted by !4C

How do you interpret favorable signs like the star on the mount of saturn? I noticed that traditional palmistry, like traditional astrology, associates saturn with an incredible amount of vague negativity. I find the contrast rather laughable.

Star represents abundance of energy. On mount of Saturn, abundance of energy is not supposed to be good for any material gain. It can give rise in position (e.g King in exile)

The fundamental point is that Star should be well placed (free of any fault). On mount of Saturn, any thing other than a good fate line is negative from materialist point of view or worldly point of view - it represents too much struggle.

It is hard to judge the outcome of Star and Trine on mount of Saturn. Both represents well focused energy.

[!4C]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

Star represents abundance of energy. On mount of Saturn, abundance of energy is not supposed to be good for any material gain. It can give rise in position

I've seen some interpretations say this is good for disciplined professions in fields like science, engineering, and medical. Considering your interpretation, this might assume a focus on the spiritual rewards of the work rather than material rewards. Or, these people might get paid well, but have significant losses in their personal life.

What would be your recommendation to a person with saturn restrictions on the palm? Do you look at the natal chart for the specifics?

[The_Saturnian]

Of what I understand about Saturn's role in palmistry. Circa 75% of known markings on Saturn's mount are usually associated with negativities.

I speak from experience, and draw inference from my own palm. Having what appears to be a triangle on Saturn's mounts on both hands, suggests affiliation/obsession with studying the occult arts. Should there be a cross on top most phalange of the Saturn finger coupled with a triangle on Saturn's mount, it is likely that such an individual may practice the 'Dark Arts' and use such power for ill purposes. (Luckily, I'm not a bearer of crosses on my Saturn finger - thank god for that).

According to the godfather of palmistry Cheiro, he considers the worst mark ever to known in palmistry to be what has been coined "The Ring of Saturn". This is a ring (in shape of course), which forms around the base of the Saturn finger.
Cheiro has stated the following for those with this most unfortunate marking as follows:

"THE RING OF SATURN

What is called the Ring of Saturn is very seldom found, and it is by no means a good sign to have. It is also a semi-circular line, but found lying across the Mount of Saturn.

In all my experience I have never been able to come across any person with this mark who succeeded in life or was able to carry any one of his plans to a successful termination.

These people seem cut off from their fellow beings in some peculiar and extraordinary way. They are isolated and alone, and they appear to realise their lonely position keenly. They are gloomy, morbid, and Saturnine in character. They seldom marry, and when they do it is always a ghastly failure.

They are terribly obstinate and headstrong in all their actions, they resent the least advice or interference in their plans. Their lives generally close in suffering, poverty, or by some sinister tragedy or fatality.

It is the most unfortunate mark ever to find."

Beings such a subject myself, I can confirm that I have experienced a hard and harsh upbringing and I do prefer solitude over masses of crowds.

Should anyone want to know more about Saturn's signs or just palmistry in general, you can click on the link below for a free online and indepth guide into palmistry readings by the Legendary Cheiro himself.

http://www.akirarabelais.com/v/witch....html#Page_124

[Cascada]

I have a star at the end of my sun line on the apollo mount. I also have a line of escape curved round near the bottom edge of my palm, with a star in the centre. A square on jupiter mount, accompanied by lots of crosses intercepting each other. I have a mystique cross. I three "scratch lines" that are on the saturn mount, not touching the line of fate. My line of sun derives from the line of fate. There may be a fish (head pointing to my middle finger) on the line of fate. I have a really general idea of what these could mean but what is your take?

[Cascada]

Oh the star in the centre of the line of escape is on the lunar mount.