astrology and its limitations

[manu mohan]

astrology has its limitations.astrologer meets with may failures.predictions fail.many times happenings in life can not be explained.progressions,transits fail.astrology fails to answer many questions.WHY?

[Moog]

Originally Posted by manu mohan

astrology has its limitations.astrologer meets with may failures.predictions fail.many times happenings in life can not be explained.progressions,transits fail.astrology fails to answer many questions.WHY?

Try Vedic astrology

[Saturnian]

I think this thread could be taken more seriously if you could explain the limitations instead of just nagging about it failing.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Astrologers are people, people can be wrong.

The only time important things happen that can't be explained is when the astrologer doesn't know the techniques to predict or see them.

[wintersprite1]

I have maintained Astrology has no limitations, but Astrologers do. Look just at a few threads on the forum and what is found is numerous opinions. Astrology is not regulated nor licensed, which is a good thing, but it also gives a student studying Medieval Latin texts the same weight as someone that has cracked a book on Sun Signs and fancies themselves Astrologers that should rewrite the entire structure of the system. Most Astrologers can not come to agreement how much Science compared to Art/intuitive is involved, nor whether to include this planet or that asteroid, etc... there is no consistency in the amount of learning or the amount of accuracy from one individual to another. So, Astrology is bound to look flaky with so many schools of thought, but that doesn't change the planets still go round and round.

TK

[manu mohan]

friends,
it is not my intention to challenge astrology ,for i am myself greatly in awe of this great science.
but as practicing aastrologers know,predictions do fail...even nativity study fails sometimes.
many times events happen which can not be explained by the the progressions,tansits or dasas operating at that time.
many times predictions just do not materialise.

people with similar charts,born same time(approx)-same place,show different fate and character....can we explain this on genetics and circumstances which differ?
twins show different nature,tendencies and aptitudes....they being born a few minutes appart,and born into same family and circumstances.

and what about conjoined twins ,who take birth together......they show different tendecies...one may be extrovert and the other introvert !
how are we to eplain these happenings.
answers have to be found...more research is needed.
all astrologer must strive harder....they may come up with some additional input based on their personal practice experiences.
knowledge is never static,it evolves...
greater truths may be revealed ..
let us all work together..for the cause of this great occult branch.
may members of this forum become pioneers and masters.

respectfully
manu

[Saturnian]

Originally Posted by manu mohan

friends,
it is not my intention to challenge astrology ,for i am myself greatly in awe of this great science.
but as practicing aastrologers know,predictions do fail...even nativity study fails sometimes.
many times events happen which can not be explained by the the progressions,tansits or dasas operating at that time.
many times predictions just do not materialise.

people with similar charts,born same time(approx)-same place,show different fate and character....can we explain this on genetics and circumstances which differ?
twins show different nature,tendencies and aptitudes....they being born a few minutes appart,and born into same family and circumstances.

and what about conjoined twins ,who take birth together......they show different tendecies...one may be extrovert and the other introvert !
how are we to eplain these happenings.
answers have to be found...more research is needed.
all astrologer must strive harder....they may come up with some additional input based on their personal practice experiences.
knowledge is never static,it evolves...
greater truths may be revealed ..
let us all work together..for the cause of this great occult branch.
may members of this forum become pioneers and masters.

respectfully
manu

Most astrologers would reply to that bolded sentence that difference in degrees matters greatly.
I personally don't support the idea that astrology is absolute and limitless.Cause it'd mean it denies free will and all of that stuff.Scientists make predictions too,while holding in their hands a lot of information.Does it mean it'll come true no matter what?I think people should accept the fact that it's not only people's faults,but just like science is not perfect so is astrology not perfect.There are rules and there are also the exceptions.The exceptions cannot usually be predicted.
You cannot claim astrology is unlimited when it is a manmade thing.
Same thing as Tarot reading.

[manu mohan]

friends,
there is nothing perfect...everything is evolving.man is evolving..he will become superman..the adepts.everything in nature is evolving,man-animals,plants,angelic beings,even the planetary bodies and the cosmos is evolving.
all forms of knowledge are evolving,science and arts also.science know is much more advanced than a century ago.man is tapping more and more knowledge from the universal internet.
there is no one great truth...but different levels of truth....greater truths will continue to be revealed.
man himself is evolving into beings of greater intelligence and power ..and so will his knowledge and studies.
astrology is also man made....
freinds ,the purpose of this thread is not to challenge astrology....i am a student myself,but to focus on real problems faced by practicing astrologers.
many times ,new comers and beginers are very fanatic about this study
but when into actual practice,the astrologer sees the working of astrology in real life...he will meet many obstacles and failures,his knowledge will fail him many times.....some cases leave him completely clueless.
friends,this forum has thousands of astro students,from different parts of the globe....and many among them will be praticing astrologers,they will have eperieces of failure in many cases...such problems and study on them will be of great help to all.
practical experience is vital to become effective astrologers.on our own ,we have to go through thousands of cases taking yearrs of research.or we can become apperentice of good astrologers and grasp their practical knowledge and experience.and if we are a part of a chain of traditional astrologers,we have knowledge and experiences of many generations of practice and there records,helping us a lot.
seeing astrology in action in real lives ...real people ....IS VITAL.
this forum having so many members,is a big bank of actual experienes...and needs to be tapped.studying the problems encountered in practice is needed.
may this thread be used for studying the problems faced by astrologers...and other challenges in practices.
respectfully,
manu

[anoop.indirapuramghazibad]

Originally Posted by manu mohan

astrology has its limitations.astrologer meets with may failures.predictions fail.many times happenings in life can not be explained.progressions,transits fail.astrology fails to answer many questions.WHY?

Manuji,
Method, technique, knowledge, applications, understand the actual meaning (if we work out on the basis of books only, then its a different thing). Nothing is wrong in it.
If we apply all the aspects properly, and follow systematically, I am sure, we are getting proper results.
Astrology is perfect, but application, translation of the planets, by the person who is doing it ... there may be error.
At least, I will say, that Astrology is perfect, but Astrologers are not focused, lack of knowledge, application, time factor is also important, influence, way of explanation and no of reasons.
But scope/area of improvement is always there, that's why research on Astrology is always there.

[Moog]

My astrological toolbox gets more complete everyday. I tend to assume that any limitations I find with astrology are actually the limitations of my knowledge and understanding. I honestly doubt I'll ever reach a point where I've exhausted all there is to be known on the subject.

[manu mohan]

zodiac
western zodiac or vedic zodiac ?

which is the true zodiac?....this is a major conflicting issue in astro world.

vedic sidreal zodiac has been there for hundreds and thousands of years..and continue to give very good results and predictions in the east.so it stands good here.
similarily western zodiac is giving excellent results in the west .....so it also stands true.
does this mean that the sidreal zodiac is true for east and western zodiac for the rest??
does this mean that the east is more receptive to the influences of sidreal zodiac....and the west being in tune to the western zodiac???


even when we study a chart ,using both zodiacs....we find that some issues are explained by western zodiac and some issues are better explained by the sidreal !...
so, are there multiple zodiacs ,having their different energies of different frequencies...operating on living beings at different levels ??
just like a radio tuning into different freuencies and bands....there being many frequencies but radio being in tune with only one frequency !!!
are people tuned to different cosmic frequencies at different levels..
some being in tune with western and others being in tune with the vedic !!
why in a same person...both zodiacs show some influence ?
how can both zodiacs stand true ?!

respectfully,
manuu

[dr. farr]

Whole system models are used to obtain practical results (effective results) to highly complex problems: homeopathy, ayurvedic medicine, acupuncture, Classical Chinese medicine, Unani-Tibb, traditional Herbalism, are all examples of whole system models: the particular components which make up any whole system model, might not be true at all in the objective, scientific (reductionistic) sense: yet it makes no difference at all whether components of a whole system model are true or false, or partially true, AS LONG AS that model produces a high degree of accurate OUTCOMES, when applied in actual practice.

I maintain that macro-cosmic analysis (aka astrology) is a whole system model, as described above; and there are variants of this whole system model, such as Vedic astrology, various modalities of Western astrology, the various approaches to Chinese astrology, all are whole system models: the ONLY thing which counts about these models, is the degree of accuracy in analysis and predictions made by the operators (practitioners) of each model: the truth or falsity of the COMPONENTS which make up each model, is a matter for philosophers and scientists, NOT for the practitioners of these models, whose only concern is how reliably and consistently these models yield
accurate OUTCOMES in practical terms of correct analysis and prediction...

[manu mohan]

is it a boy or a girl,man or a woman??....

some years back,our friend tim wilson tc asked me a question..wether from the chart alone caN WE FIND IF IT BELONGS TO A MAN OR WOMAN?!
IN MY enthuthiasm ,i answered that it is possible.in some ancient indian works they give a method..involving the varga possitions of the planets.but when actually put to test ...the method fails....it gave no better result than blind guesses.there is no unanimity about the precessional value and that makes all the fine divisional systems in the vedic ,very unreliable.
most astrologers use intutive skils to judge wether a chart is genuine or it belongs to a man or woman....they may also use horary charts to clarify these issues.
but can a natal chart give wether it is a girl or a boy ?!.............

[Moog]

Originally Posted by manu mohan

but can a natal chart give wether it is a girl or a boy ?!.............

I've seen forumulas that are supposed to be able to do this, but I've yet to test any of them. I can't think of a very practical use, so I've not got round to it.

I'm dubious about the value of varga charts as well, due to the inherent dodginess of birth times.

[dr. farr]

Yet I think varga (divisional) charts, when properly applied, are perhaps the single most valuable contribution of Vedic astrology! I myself have not been that impressed with the need for exact birth times, in order to delineate with a very high degree of accuracy-I think dealing with "fuzziness" regarding birth time, had been "built into" the ancient delineative models (Hellenistic and classical Vedic, as well as the Chinese models) and that these models (applied in, or close to, their original methodologies) compensate for inexactness regarding the birth time, and yield a good degree of analytical and predictive accuracy, when correctly manipulated by an experienced and knowledgeable operator.
...but, this is only my personal opinion and experience, perhaps it's just another "Dr Anarchy" outlook!

PS: I also think it is very difficult (and beyond the capacity of even most experts in the field) to determine whether the owner of the natal chart is male or female. I myself have never been interested in doing this, so I have no experience in attempting to make such determinations.
My outlook regarding the issue of exact birth time (described above), is my main reason for not being interested (much) in chart rectification..I really have not found much need for it, especially since I switched from Placidus to whole sign house format, the latter often clarifying what the effective ascendant, and the effective actual house placements of planets, really is-here again, the ancients {who I believe universally used whole sign house format} might have "built in" compensation for fuzzy birth times, through use of the mathematically crude but nonetheless highly PRACTICALLY effective, whole sign house format...

[manu mohan]

birth time ...its accuracy,
most astrologers cast the chart for the time given by the client.unless there are very strong indications about the invalidity of the time,they don't bother about rectification.and rectification is a labourious process.....and there is no guarantee of success...we also need a very reliable record of the past incidents of the life of the client with reasonable accuracy.....these things make rectification to a higher degree...very impractical.
we can though detect major errors much easily...
but coming back to birth time,there is usually some gap of time between birth and actual recording of the time.even in cases where one of the parent is near and records the time....even here a question comes..WHAT IS BIRTH....IS IT WHEN THE HEAD EMERGES...OR WHEN THE PLACENTA IS CUT OR THE FIRST BREATH...THERE IS NO UNANIMITY ON THIS POINT.....
SO DR Farr rightly said that there is no point in going after too much accuracy of the exact moment...
frankly there is no way we can mark the exact moment...or what the exact moment is.
neither is the present astrology advanced enough,to understand the energies of minute fractions of a degree.
vedic system has a very detailed divisional system.....nowdays western astrology is also using the harmonics in their zodiac.
vedic practitioners use various aynamsas or precessional values,from 18 to 24degrees.this makes the finer house divisions unreliable......hardly any practical astrologer uses the detailed charts...most of them end with navamsa -9 th harmonic chart.nor is it humanly possible to test the effectiveness of these detailed amsas and harmonics.....they just help to increase the bulk of the horoscope.
all a good astrologer needs is the basics.
most vedic astrologers dont even bother about bhava or house positions.most of them use a whole sign as a house.....so sign of the ascendant becomes the 1st house,it does not matter where the ascendant is placed.the whole sign is the first house....rest follow.
yes there are house divisions charts...but most go by the former and get good results.