Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Traditional Astrology

Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-27-2012, 04:06 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,529
Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Many attribute monasteries to 12th house as places of isolation - otherwise monks/nuns belong to 9th house which represents religious concerns. 12th has rulership over scandals as well as personal fears/skeletons in the family closet and has much to do with shame and the fear of future consequences. Its significations include secret, unknown enemies, such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them: traitors, spies; witchcraft, malicious hauntings; weakness, infirmity and bondage. It also rules great cattle, such as horses, oxen, elephants, of which Ezra notes "Those which serve as a mount for men".

Source of the above is http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html


{Passages deleted by moderator.} In order to respect copyright laws, members must not paste in their posts texts copied from other websites or other publications that are over 100 words long each.

EDIT - IMO kaiousei no Senshi's post, further down in the thread, sets out the issue well - many thanks kaiousei no Senshi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
I think it should be said that the actual origins of the 12th house meanings have more to do with the position of the luminaries when they are physically in this house than one might think. It's somewhat humorous that a thread on the origin of the Twelfth house fails to mention its origins.

We have to remember that this is a cadent house which symbolizes an immediate loss of power, especially coming off of the most powerful angle in the horoscope.

We also have to remember what this area of the sky does to heavenly objects that wind up there. Due to the acute angle to the horizon and the atmosphere of the Earth, the luminaries and the stars do not appear in their proper color, luminosity, or clarity when they are astronomically positioned in this area of the sky. Imagine all the otherwordly colors the Sun and Moon appear to be during sunrise and moonrise. Moon is yellow, orange, sometimes red, Sun appears purplish, pink, orange, a whole mix of colors due to the gases in the atmosphere. The Eighth and Seventh houses also share this unique ability, and you see what they are associated with.


Finally, we can't overlook the fact that Saturn joys in this house. These things combined give us our 12th house.


I say all that and then say that the 12th house isn't all bad, as long as we're aware of it and how it can ruin us, there's no reason to see why we can't overcome its toil.

Advertisements:
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 05-02-2012 at 03:03 PM. Reason: added kaiousei no Senshi's post
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SniperBomber328 (04-27-2012)
  #2  
Old 04-27-2012, 07:54 PM
SniperBomber328's Avatar
SniperBomber328 SniperBomber328 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Unknown to prying eyes
Posts: 576
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Great post jupiterasc. I hope it helps clear a few things when looked at in the Traditional perspective.
__________________
"If you do what you love, you will never have to work a day in your life" - Confucius
.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:39 PM
StillOne's Avatar
StillOne StillOne is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: On a Rock in Space
Posts: 1,791
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Hey Jup! How might you describe my Moon in the 12th according to trad deliniation?

Thanks for your help!

Last edited by StillOne; 04-28-2012 at 01:49 AM. Reason: Apparently not a read my chart thread! My bad!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:47 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,529
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Hey Jup! How might you describe my Moon in Cancer in the 12th according to trad deliniation? I suppose it would just have the Trine from the Sun and no Quincunx from Merc since the quincunx aspect isn't considered... (couldn't figure out how to turn that off on astro). Thanks for your help!
In ancient times there were no "Quincunx" aspects StillOne but instead the aspect was termed a "Disjunct". Hellenistic methods would commence with "The Preliminary Natal Analysis" which is lengthy and that would divert from the topic of this thread because it is not a "read my chart" thread as such
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 05-03-2012 at 10:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-28-2012, 01:48 AM
StillOne's Avatar
StillOne StillOne is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: On a Rock in Space
Posts: 1,791
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
In ancient times there were no "Quincunx" aspects StillOne but instead the aspect was termed a "Disjunct". Hellenistic methods would commence with "The Preliminary Natal Analysis" which takes considerable time - and so, rather than diverting from the topic of this thread with a "read my chart", I shall now refer you to where guidelines on this kind of assessment are to be found at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=43920 Omnisphericus provides excellent guidance according to other Traditional methods at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463
Oh, my bad. Was hoping to promote discussion!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:59 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,314
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

In Vedic astrology the 12th is mostly connected with EXPENDITURES: this includes expenditure of energy, of money, of efforts, of life force; let us say that it signifies OVER "expenditures" of the above, or excessive efforts/expenditures of these. Connected with this expenditures concept arose the idea of loss/losses associated with the 12th house.

As the last of the houses, there was also an association with "ends" (it is the last or ending house of the chain of houses) As 4th (end of the matter house) from the 8th (longevity house) the 12th became associated with the concept of the "end of longevity", ie, with death, and therefore with radical change, and also with liberation (moksha) from the cycle of wordly existence (from the chain of houses = chain of the various departments of life)

Since the 12th house/sign is in fact the ascendant prior to the ascendant at the birth moment, the 12th house became associated with the previous incarnation, and therefore (within Vedic philosophy) also with the entire concept of karma: being the ascending sign during the time immediately prior to actual birth, the 12th also came to signify the trauma of the birth process (the trauma for the individual being born and passing into a life seperate from being part of the life of mother)-and also became connected with the secret, hidden "unknown" life of the individual during the pre-natal period. So the concepts of hidden, mysteries, occult/secret influences, developed from these considerations of the 12th house as being the immediately-prior pre-birth ascendant.

This is my understanding of the genesis and development of 12th house associations and significations, as found in Vedic astrological doctrines and delineations...
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (04-28-2012), Moog (05-01-2012), SniperBomber328 (04-28-2012)
  #7  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:51 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,314
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

In light of ongoing discussions in 2 threads regarding 12th house, I am refreshing this thread relative to information in my post, above.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-02-2012, 05:30 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi's Avatar
Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is online now
Senior Member
Kaiousei no Senshi's Profile Fields
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Posts: 2,489
Send a message via AIM to Kaiousei no Senshi Send a message via MSN to Kaiousei no Senshi
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

I think it should be said that the actual origins of the 12th house meanings have more to do with the position of the luminaries when they are physically in this house than one might think. It's somewhat humorous that a thread on the origin of the Twelfth house fails to mention its origins.

We have to remember that this is a cadent house which symbolizes an immediate loss of power, especially coming off of the most powerful angle in the horoscope.

We also have to remember what this area of the sky does to heavenly objects that wind up there. Due to the acute angle to the horizon and the atmosphere of the Earth, the luminaries and the stars do not appear in their proper color, luminosity, or clarity when they are astronomically positioned in this area of the sky. Imagine all the otherwordly colors the Sun and Moon appear to be during sunrise and moonrise. Moon is yellow, orange, sometimes red, Sun appears purplish, pink, orange, a whole mix of colors due to the gases in the atmosphere. The Eighth and Seventh houses also share this unique ability, and you see what they are associated with.

Finally, we can't overlook the fact that Saturn joys in this house. These things combined give us our 12th house.

I say all that and then say that the 12th house isn't all bad, as long as we're aware of it and how it can ruin us, there's no reason to see why we can't overcome its toil.
__________________
Coming events cast their shadows before them.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kaiousei no Senshi For This Useful Post:
Moog (05-02-2012)
  #9  
Old 05-02-2012, 05:42 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,314
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

In the oldest (extant) Western astrological literature (Manilius "Astronomica", 14 AD) Saturn's joy was allocated to the 4th house; the change of the allocation of Saturn's joy to the 12th house occured about a century later, in the works of Valens and this change was subsequently retained as such during the remaining Hellenist era and after (through our day in Traditionalist astrology)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-02-2012, 07:33 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi's Avatar
Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is online now
Senior Member
Kaiousei no Senshi's Profile Fields
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Posts: 2,489
Send a message via AIM to Kaiousei no Senshi Send a message via MSN to Kaiousei no Senshi
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Yes, but even in the Astronomica, the 12th house retains its meanings of misfortune.

It's why I listed Saturn's joy in the house as the final reason, since it did come later. Also, I feel like I should mention the reason this was changed from the Fourth house to the 12th was sect. Saturn (a diurnal planet) should not joy in a nocturnal house, so they changed it.
__________________
Coming events cast their shadows before them.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:01 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,314
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Right-however in Vedic astrology they retained the most ancient allocation of Saturn to nocturnal sect, which is regarded as such (ie, Saturn as a nocturnal planet) to the present time in jyotish.

Interesting also that in the Manilius Circle of the Athla (basically a turned, fortuna based chart) the 12th place ("house") was considered to indicate the success or failure tendencies for the subject's plans and schemes and efforts in life (Zoller, in his "Arabic Parts" book, in the "Manilius Fortunes" appendix, has an interesting explanation of this, and other, allocations of "places"-ie, "houses" or "fortunes"-in the Circle of the Athla)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:42 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,529
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
.........the change of the allocation of Saturn's joy to the 12th house occured about a century later, in the works of Valens and this change was subsequently retained as such during the remaining Hellenist era and after (through our day in Traditionalist astrology)
Vettius Valens gathered and preserved intact the writings of astrologers who had already preceded him by at least three hundred years, so Valens Anthology cannot be claimed as innovative! Valens motive in writing the Anthology was to preserve all the available ancient astrological lore he could find
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-03-2012, 03:44 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 11,314
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

I do believe though that he might well have excluded certain earlier schools of thought, such as the concept of the Circle of the Athla, the Manilius decans, and some of the Manilius material regarding the joys of the planets.
This does not imply any criticism of Valens-remember that there were several schools of Hellenist thought and practice: I believe Valens was preserving the knowledge and insights of the particular stream of astrology into which he had been trained and initiated...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-03-2012, 03:58 AM
anoop.indirapuramghazibad anoop.indirapuramghazibad is offline
Senior Member
anoop.indirapuramghazibad's Profile Fields
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Indirapuram, Ghaziabad, Contact e-mail-anoop.astrologer@gmail.com
Posts: 750
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Vedic astrology, i will like to add, 12th house is for Hospital, Jail, foreign land, Hermitage/monastery, Sleep, Bedroom, can relate with export-import if linked with 10th house etc.
__________________
www.anoopastrosutra.com,
.....Anoop.astrologer (Jyotisha Acharya)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:49 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 11,529
Re: Origin Of Twelfth House Meanings

Remember that any number of ancient astrological texts were destroyed by various means either to maintain secrecy or simply when invading armies intended to obliterate a 'conquered' culture. There is therefore no certainty regarding the actual contents of the entirety of the original texts of 'ancient' astrology referred to in surviving astrological texts and as a result, much remains conjecture
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
house, meanings, origin, twelfth

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aspects/Houses tikana Education Board 4 06-07-2010 11:31 AM
Neptune Trine Moon Confused Introduce Yourself 12 03-25-2008 09:02 PM
Synastry planets in partner's 12th house Cleopatra Relational Astrology 7 12-09-2007 10:16 PM
What house has to do with astrology and sex? Kaiousei no Senshi Houses & cusps 90 10-15-2007 01:14 PM
Planets in my chart 0WinN0 Aspects & configurations 10 03-17-2007 03:26 AM



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2014, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.