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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:24 AM
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Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

for example,

Moon is at 21 Gemini, in the 8th, out of sect, in the 4th quarter (Occidental), in hard aspect (square) to its depositor, Mercury in Virgo in the 11th.

Moon 21 Gemini
Domicile: Mercury
Exalt: n/a
Triplicity: Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter
Terms: Venus
Decan: Sun

Moon has no essential dignity in this position. therefore, it is peregrine?

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Old 05-02-2012, 12:43 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

Yes, though I didn't double check the tables. According to what you post the Moon in 8th is peregrine. However, it's ruler is exalted and in aspect with it. It is a square, but the Moon is received by Mercury. Without the whole chart we can't draw very many conclusions, but note that the Moon and Mercury will have something to do with the 9th house as well, since this is the house the Moon rules.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:19 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Yes, though I didn't double check the tables. According to what you post the Moon in 8th is peregrine. However, it's ruler is exalted and in aspect with it. It is a square, but the Moon is received by Mercury. Without the whole chart we can't draw very many conclusions, but note that the Moon and Mercury will have something to do with the 9th house as well, since this is the house the Moon rules.
thank you for a quick reply! Moon in the 8th is peregrine, meaning it is debilitated?

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Old 05-23-2012, 08:29 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

No, the moon is not technically debilitated in Gemini.

Dignities
Taurus
Cancer

Debilities
Scorpio
Capricorn

--

BUT, I do think Gemini is one of the more difficult placements for the Moon--especially if it's note well aspected. Having the Moon in the 8th house will add a bit of debilitated energy to it; since the 8th house is Scorpio's natural house.

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Old 05-24-2012, 06:18 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

While the Moon may not be technically debilitated in Gemini, it is the 12th sign from Cancer, the Moon's natural home. So the Moon being in Gemini is like she is in her own 12th house.

Maria
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:31 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by d00dle View Post
thank you for a quick reply! Moon in the 8th is peregrine, meaning it is debilitated?
Gosh, I missed this. Sorry.

Yes, being peregrine is a form of debility. But it isn't the only thing to consider. You can find a tutorial about dignity and debility here.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/digintro.html

You have to consider everything before you decide if a planet is debilitated.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:51 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Gosh, I missed this. Sorry.

Yes, being peregrine is a form of debility. But it isn't the only thing to consider. You can find a tutorial about dignity and debility here.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/digintro.html

You have to consider everything before you decide if a planet is debilitated.
Anachiel has thrown some light on this matter on another thread with the following comment regarding certain circumstances when a peregrine planet "appears peregrine" BUT is "not really" peregrine after all
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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Well, the Angles are a different story altogether from dignity/detriment. An Angle will simply add to a planet's fortitude, but not it's dignity/detriment. So, a person signified by a planet in detriment only ( no other dignity/detriment) will really be in a bad spot but, they have fortitude, ability to endure, even though things are rough.

In your example above of Venus and the Sun, then both are doing quite well. Maybe not without each other but, it is a given from the circustances, they assist and, as Bonatus puts it, malice is abated.

Lilly gives us pause from his Table of Fortitude and Debilities, that if a planet is in mutual reception by rule or exaltation that, regardless of whether it is peregrine where it is at, it is not really peregrine for the strong mutual reception saves it. So, it only appears peregrine and proves one should not judge a book by it's cover. It's as if it has a patron supporting or assisting it.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:38 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by MariaMGF View Post
While the Moon may not be technically debilitated in Gemini, it is the 12th sign from Cancer, the Moon's natural home. So the Moon being in Gemini is like she is in her own 12th house.

Maria
That's an interesting idea, and just to toss another into the mix, the Part of Fortune I believe is considered the ascendant of the Moon. I would be more inclined to count houses from this placement than from Cancer. True the Moon is in Domicile in Cancer, but other than the luminaries the 7 traditional planets (minuse Neptune, Uranus and Pluto) rule two signs each. Therefore we wouldn't be able to find only one sign to be, say, Mercury's twelfth house.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:10 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

To be fair, planets in the 8th are naturally debilitated, peregrine planets are also debilitated, and if Mercury is configured more closely with a malefic than a benefic that will also make the Moon debilitated.

Bonatti gives us a list of ways that the Moon can be debilitated.

1) Combust of the Sun or Under the Sun's Beams.
2) In her detriment or fall
3) Square, Opposite, or Conjunct a malefic without perfect reception
4) With the North or South Node
5) In Gemini
6) When in the Terms of a malefic.
7) When in the Sixth, Eighth, or Twelfth house.
8) Via Combusta
9) Void of Course
10) Slow in Motion
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:19 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
To be fair, planets in the 8th are naturally debilitated, peregrine planets are also debilitated, and if Mercury is configured more closely with a malefic than a benefic that will also make the Moon debilitated.

Bonatti gives us a list of ways that the Moon can be debilitated.

1) Combust of the Sun or Under the Sun's Beams.
2) In her detriment or fall
3) Square, Opposite, or Conjunct a malefic without perfect reception
4) With the North or South Node
5) In Gemini
6) When in the Terms of a malefic.
7) When in the Sixth, Eighth, or Twelfth house.
8) Via Combusta
9) Void of Course
10) Slow in Motion
That's fantastic. A couple of questions? Firstly, are these considerations from his considerations? Do they apply mainly to horary astrology, or are they meant for natal as well? For example, if the Moon is debilitated when combust or under the beams, then anyone born at or near the new Moon will have this issue.

What is "perfect reception?" Does he mean for example that a conjunction must occur in the malefic's domicile, or if any other aspect the Moon has to be received by the malefic? Does mutual reception need to apply?

The Moon is often found with the nodes at a time of eclipse. Again, does this pertain to natal? Same for VOC.

Why in Gemini?

I know, I'm just full of questions.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:46 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall
That's fantastic. A couple of questions? Firstly, are these considerations from his considerations? Do they apply mainly to horary astrology, or are they meant for natal as well? For example, if the Moon is debilitated when combust or under the beams, then anyone born at or near the new Moon will have this issue.
Yes, these are from his 146 considerations and they would be mostly applicable to horary since that is what his 146 considerations cover, however the idea of debilitated planets and the method of their debilitation would carry over to other branches.

Quote:
What is "perfect reception?"
Perfect reception is when a planet receives another in their domicile, exaltation, or two of the other minor dignites of triplicity, face, and term. In this situation, the malefic must receive the Moon. Mutual reception is cool, but the malefic must receive the Moon.

Quote:
The Moon is often found with the nodes at a time of eclipse. Again, does this pertain to natal? Same for VOC.
Yes, the eclipsing is the reason the Moon is debilitated here. I would assume it applies to natal, I don't know why it wouldn't.

Quote:
Why in Gemini?
Maria actually got this one right, it's the 12th sign from Cancer. This seems to be something that is unique to the Moon.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:04 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Maria actually got this one right, it's the 12th sign from Cancer. This seems to be something that is unique to the Moon.
Intriguingly, we could otherwise surmise that Sun being in Cancer COULD be the Sun being in his own 12th house... BUT even IF we somehow crammed the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto into the traditional rulership table, we nevertheless would NOT be able to find only one sign to be either Mercury's 12th house OR Venus' 12th house.

All of which implies that all planets having a “natural 12th house” seems somewhat inconsistent IMO ... so it makes sense then that the case of the Moon is the sole exception
- Many thanks for clarifying that Kaiousei no Senshi!
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:08 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

There are many considerations that are unique to the Moon, so it wouldn't be at all odd or out of place for this to be another one. She's very sensitive.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:12 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
There are many considerations that are unique to the Moon, so it wouldn't be at all odd or out of place for this to be another one. She's very sensitive.
IMO since Moon is sole 'planet' orbiting earth, therefore I would agree that unsurprisingly she would be the subject of unique/'special considerations'
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:43 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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That's an interesting idea, and just to toss another into the mix, the Part of Fortune I believe is considered the ascendant of the Moon. I would be more inclined to count houses from this placement than from Cancer. True the Moon is in Domicile in Cancer, but other than the luminaries the 7 traditional planets (minuse Neptune, Uranus and Pluto) rule two signs each. Therefore we wouldn't be able to find only one sign to be, say, Mercury's twelfth house.
The Lot of Fortune is only metaphorically 'a' lunar ascendant, in reality it is a set of houses describing what we receive through fate/fortune, it also shows our ability to be able to see what can or is coming our way. If you think about the Greek Triremes and other sailing vessels lady fortune is the statue at the front of a ship, this is si she can guide the sailors through wind and wave to achieve their destin(ation)y. The position of the Lot of Fortune and it's lord are able to guide us to our destiny.

Yes the other five planets rule two houses each but the house of the planet depends upon the sect of the chart. For example, Mercury's first house is Virgo in a nocturnal chart, Venus's first house would be Taurus in a nocturnal chart, Mars's first house would be Aries in a diurnal chart. I see no difficulty here because the sect of the chart gives the planets rulerships. This is all born as a direct result of studying and astrologically defining the meanings of the techniques of the Hellenistic authors.

Maria
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:44 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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The Lot of Fortune is only metaphorically 'a' lunar ascendant, in reality it is a set of houses describing what we receive through fate/fortune, it also shows our ability to be able to see what can or is coming our way. If you think about the Greek Triremes and other sailing vessels lady fortune is the statue at the front of a ship, this is si she can guide the sailors through wind and wave to achieve their destin(ation)y. The position of the Lot of Fortune and it's lord are able to guide us to our destiny.

Yes the other five planets rule two houses each but the house of the planet depends upon the sect of the chart. For example, Mercury's first house is Virgo in a nocturnal chart, Venus's first house would be Taurus in a nocturnal chart, Mars's first house would be Aries in a diurnal chart. I see no difficulty here because the sect of the chart gives the planets rulerships. This is all born as a direct result of studying and astrologically defining the meanings of the techniques of the Hellenistic authors.

Maria
Maria, thank you for explaining. This makes so much sense. You have described what could be a difficult concept to understand in a way that is elegant, and now I know what I'll be thinking about all day.

tamara
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:43 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by MariaMGF View Post
The Lot of Fortune is only metaphorically 'a' lunar ascendant, in reality it is a set of houses describing what we receive through fate/fortune, it also shows our ability to be able to see what can or is coming our way. If you think about the Greek Triremes and other sailing vessels lady fortune is the statue at the front of a ship, this is si she can guide the sailors through wind and wave to achieve their destin(ation)y. The position of the Lot of Fortune and it's lord are able to guide us to our destiny
fwiw, The Education board of this forum offers “an educational blurb” that includes information relating to the Part of Fortune and states clearly that the Part or Lot of Fortune is: (THE FOLLOWING 98 WORD QUOTE IS SOURCED FROM THE EDUCATION BOARD OF THIS FORUM FROM INFORMATION POSTED BY RAY AUSTIN):

“….key to person's character, prosperity, characterises physical body & is the medium through which other lots operate, as it is ‘physical body’/vehicle through which person executes ambitions: is considered gateway.


STRONG
– has vitality to achieve fortune/auspicious character & potential for great prosperity. If other lots are fortunate, is a good medium through which privileged promise can operate.


WEAK
– physical form and/or character may hinder attainment/is not conducive towards success. Possibly no great promise of prosperity. If other lots promise great things, person may be too weak to realize such gains/not care for great success”


Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaMGF View Post
Yes the other five planets rule two houses each but the house of the planet depends upon the sect of the chart. For example, Mercury's first house is Virgo in a nocturnal chart, Venus's first house would be Taurus in a nocturnal chart, Mars's first house would be Aries in a diurnal chart. I see no difficulty here because the sect of the chart gives the planets rulerships. This is all born as a direct result of studying and astrologically defining the meanings of the techniques of the Hellenistic authors. Maria
Good point, well made MariaMGF

Sun alone determines sect therefore
sun above horizon = day chart
sun below horizon = night chart.

Interestingly, although the sun and moon have only one domicile Ibn Ezra comments: "as they are both rulers, the domiciles are considered as belonging to one ruler" and Abu Ma'shar also states: “Even though the Moon has only one domicile and the Sun has only one domicile, as they are both rulers, the domiciles are considered as belonging to one ruler."

Thus IMO, it is apparent that for ancient astrologers

(a) sun in Cancer/moon in Cancer is in own domicile

(b) sun in Leo/moon in Leo is in own domicile


AND SO intriguingly however - IMO Hellenistically speaking - a natal sun located in Cancer cannot be regarded as being in own 12th house – irrespective of sect

Likewise -IMO Hellenistically speaking - a natal moon located in Cancer cannot be regarded as being in own 12th house – irrespective of sect

It would seem then that for Hellenistic astrologers, the exception in this case being BOTH sun and moon SHARE not only domiciles but also sole “own 12th” Gemini

Interestingly, the situation morphed over the centuries and for traditional astrologers the sun has now no dignity in Cancer and the moon has no dignity in Leo
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:26 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

Another view is that it's exalted; sidereally, it's in Taurus, but in the 8th house.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:33 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Another view is that it's exalted; sidereally, it's in Taurus, but in the 8th house.
i guess it is always best to stay consistent with interpretations. Reading a chart that are made with a western astrology system, you would use a western interpretation.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:06 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Moon is at 21 Gemini, in the 8th, out of sect, in the 4th quarter (Occidental), in hard aspect (square) to its depositor, Mercury in Virgo in the 11th.
In your chart, Moon may act like debilitated for the following cumulative reasons.
1. Moon is in 8th house, debilitated, by house.
2. It is opposed by Neptune.
3. 8th ruler, Mercury is combusted.
4. Moon's sign, Cancer has debilitated Mars.
5. South Node is on the cusp of 4th house.
6. Pluto throws good aspect, but Pluto is itself helpless, in its detrimental sign.
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:19 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post
In your chart, Moon may act like debilitated for the following cumulative reasons.
1. Moon is in 8th house, debilitated, by house.
2. It is opposed by Neptune.
3. 8th ruler, Mercury is combusted.
4. Moon's sign, Cancer has debilitated Mars.
5. South Node is on the cusp of 4th house.
6. Pluto throws good aspect, but Pluto is itself helpless, in its detrimental sign.
i didn't know Pluto is in its fall in Libra! again, it's a slow moving planet. Theoretically, Moon is debilitated meaning unable to function or express itself easily. would this explain why i have this difficulty expressing emotions and feelings. I tend to over analyzing things and emotionally, i'm not so responsive.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:29 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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i didn't know Pluto is in its fall in Libra!
fwiw no one knows that for certain d00dle!
84 WORD QUOTE FROM WIKIPEDIA EXPLAINS

"After the discovery of the three outer planets -Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto - modern astrologers speculated on possible domicile and exaltation rulerships for these planets.

It was suggested, for example, that Neptune was the "true" domicile ruler of Pisces (usurping one of Jupiter's two domicile rulerships).

The ancient system was complex and symmetrical, making no allowance for additional, unseen planets, and it is difficult to include them in traditional techniques

Most modern astrologers have therefore abandoned attempts to assign exaltations to these newer planets"

SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_%28astrology%29
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Old 05-27-2012, 05:15 PM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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i didn't know Pluto is in its fall in Libra! again, it's a slow moving planet. Theoretically, Moon is debilitated meaning unable to function or express itself easily. would this explain why i have this difficulty expressing emotions and feelings. I tend to over analyzing things and emotionally, i'm not so responsive.
Pluto is newest and there are uncertainties about it's rulership, exaltation, etc.

However few common practices are:
1. Pluto is co-ruler of Scorpio and Aries; thereby detrimental signs are Taurus and Libra.
2. Some experienced: Pluto is exalted in Aries, thereby debilitated in Libra
3. Some experienced: Pluto is exalted in Leo, thereby debilitated in Aquarius.

I see values in all the above observation.

With reference to your chart, I saw Pluto in Libra and in 12th house. Thereby it is weaker Planet in Chart. I used term detrimental in your context, instead of debilitated.

Although I see values in #2 and #3, I usually prefer #1. Also Pluto is not significant, unless it is closely located at angles or closely in conjunction with Sun or Moon.
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:37 AM
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

"The main reason that the Moon in Gemini indicates emotional detachment, physical overextension and sometimes lack of sensitivity, is because the Moon is in the 12th sign (house) from it's own domicile (Cancer), and the 12th sign/house indicates those qualities that get ignored, and put away. The Moon also represents the physical body. Therefore the Moon in Gemini represents ignoring feelings, sensitivities, taboos, sometimes health, etc. The reason the 12th represents qualities that get ignored is because the 12th sign/house is the joy of Saturn which represents the principle of agnoia (ignorance or ignoring)."
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:00 PM
MariaMGF MariaMGF is offline
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Re: Is this Moon in Gemini debilitated

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Maria, thank you for explaining. This makes so much sense. You have described what could be a difficult concept to understand in a way that is elegant, and now I know what I'll be thinking about all day.

tamara

Thank you tsmall, I tried to be as clear and concise as possible.


Quote:
JUPITERASC;

“….key to person's character, prosperity, characterises physical body & is the medium through which other lots operate, as it is ‘physical body’/vehicle through which person executes ambitions: is considered gateway.

Interestingly, although the sun and moon have only one domicile Ibn Ezra comments: "as they are both rulers, the domiciles are considered as belonging to one ruler" and Abu Ma'shar also states: “Even though the Moon has only one domicile and the Sun has only one domicile, as they are both rulers, the domiciles are considered as belonging to one ruler."

Thus IMO, it is apparent that for ancient astrologers

(a) sun in Cancer/moon in Cancer is in own domicile

(b) sun in Leo/moon in Leo is in own domicile


AND SO intriguingly however - IMO Hellenistically speaking - a natal sun located in Cancer cannot be regarded as being in own 12th house – irrespective of sect

Likewise -IMO Hellenistically speaking - a natal moon located in Cancer cannot be regarded as being in own 12th house – irrespective of sect

It would seem then that for Hellenistic astrologers, the exception in this case being BOTH sun and moon SHARE not only domiciles but also sole “own 12th” Gemini

From my reading of the authors who developed and used the concept of 'lots' there was never any talk of the lots having psychological meaning attached. I am not saying they can't, but it could be a big mistake to just attach psychological characteristics to them without carefully understanding what they were developed for; then building on that foundation. Personally, I use the lots for the purpose they were designed for in Hellenistic times. In these times the lots were used to investigate specific topics allied to the natal delineation. For example, in looking at ones father, one technique would be to assess the natal Sun/Saturn combined with the lot of the father, then relate these to the fortune houses because angular from a fortune perspective means it IS coming your way, or directly at the person who owns the natal chart.


Ja'far ibn Muḥammad al-Balkhī (787–886), known as Abū Ma'shar, lived in Baghdad in the 9th century and Avraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164) were pre-cursors to Medieval Horary Astrology. Outside of the Hellenistic community very little was known about Greek horoscopic astrology, one clear example is the arabs thinking of lots as parts and mutiplying them beyond all proportion, the truth was they were just trying to emulate what the Greeks were doing with only tidbits of information and failed to even notice how lots were contructed. They just thought you could take any two parts and project them from the asc etc.

I respect of the Sun and Moon both ruling cancer and Leo you have lost me. The Zoroatrians developed a system where the Sun was said to 'be happy' in both Cancer and Leo, but in no ancient sources have I ever found it said that the Moon could rule both signs. The Greeks would have thought this was heresy as the Moon was described as being a "counterfeit light" and the Sun is "ruler of ones all".

I am at a loss when you say "Hellenistically speaking... because I am well versed in Hellenistic astrology and I can reiterate that the moon in Gemini would have been considered in its own natural 12th place.

Quote:
It would seem then that for Hellenistic astrologers, the exception in this case being BOTH sun and moon SHARE not only domiciles but also sole “own 12th” Gemini



Please provide a reference for this because I cannot find a single Hellenistic astrologer who stated and/or recorded this.

You quote the link to Vettius Valens Anthologies which I know particularly well, are you familiar with the Ten books? The free online translation, Robert Schmidt's translation or both? I cannot source your assertions in either of those and would be grateful for your source. Thank you

Maria
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