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  #51  
Old 04-28-2012, 01:48 AM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
I once read somewhere (don't quote me) that no unevolved person is ever born with a Scorpio Rising. Then again I don't believe in other lifetimes or reincarnation so...

By the way I am a Scorpio Rising with Pluto in the 1st Scorpio....I have not transformed into anything.
All in good time, mate.......all in good time

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Old 04-28-2012, 01:56 AM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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All in good time, mate.......all in good time

So true, you just can't finalize not until the day you die really.
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  #53  
Old 04-28-2012, 02:22 AM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Another Pluto in Leo here.... getting to be older 'n dirt. Here's my two cents:

I think that, at its most basic, Pluto is about transforming rather than about traumatizing. Sometimes it will transform by taking the neat little structure you've erected around your life and blasting it away because it needed to be blasted.

Other times it does its transformative work more slowly over time.
Some wise words re Pluto, Judy. I have learned the hard way to `love' Pluto, as I was once afraid of where it was taking me.

The digging deep seems to be behind the interest in psychology/counselling/motivation. I have an enduring interest/passion/obsession with the shadow side of human nature, and especially the motivation of those who behave way outside the law - eg as in murderers, `gurus' such as Jim Jones and David Koresh, etc. Last night I was out to dinner with my brother, my niece and my cousin - we only ever get together infrequently, as my brother lives interstate. My cousin has Sun-Jupiter closely conjunct (only 8' separate) in the 12th (in Aries) and she reads a lot, mostly books on spirituality, and she can be quite `preachy' about what she has read. She was telling us about the latest book she'd read, when she asked me what I'd been reading. The conversation went something like this:
Cuz: So, R4VEN, what are you reading at the moment?
R: It's called "Killing For Pleasure", and is about the background to the Snowtown murders (a well-known serial killing in this state) and the early lives of the perpetrators. It's something of a psychological profile of the people involved.
Cuz: (wrinkling her nose) Oh, I couldn't read anything like that! Too dark.
R: I like dark. It fascinates me. I'm a bit obsessed with that sort of thing.

I kind of killed the conversation with my revelation about my preferred reading material. As well as the Sun-Pluto conjunction, I have Pluto trine Jupiter, also very closely semi-sextile my Cancer Moon, as well as semi-square venus-Uranus conjunction. Pluto is quite entwined in many areas of my chart.

I would also say that my fascination with the darker side of human nature has only emerged slowly and after transiting Pluto squared my Sun-Pluto conjunction in the late 1980's.......................in much the same way, my son only began wearing black clothes after tr Pluto crossed his Scorpio ASC in the mid 1990's. Tr Pluto has the potential for opening parts of us which may not necessarily be `nice', but are fascinating all the same (but mainly to us). Pluto has the potential for exposing these parts of ourselves which we have a need to acknowledge and integrate if we wish to be whole.....that's my theory anyway.

And in relation to what Judy mentioned about attracting Pluto-type clients........ my ex-husband has Scorpio rising, as has one of my sons. That same son has Pluto-Sun conj, and my other son has Pluto opp Moon - he is somewhat more gentle than the rest of us!! I have only learned to enjoy and even love Pluto through discovering my own preferred expression of it.
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  #54  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:17 AM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Well.... planets are more visible to the world at MC or Ascendant, but I wouldn't say that makes a planet necessarily more prominent in the way an individual expresses him/herself. There's a difference.
I meant prominency in terms of the planet at an angular house operates at 100% full power.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:55 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

Sigh.... I don't think it's possible to love Pluto in any easy way. Always hard. And you have to survive the awful transits, really get through them and out the other side, before you can see the transformative good. It reminds me of the grief process, after a loved one has died. (Here we go again with morbid, dark-side stuff!!! Just comes naturally

Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:19 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Sigh.... I don't think it's possible to love Pluto in any easy way. Always hard. And you have to survive the awful transits, really get through them and out the other side, before you can see the transformative good. It reminds me of the grief process, after a loved one has died. (Here we go again with morbid, dark-side stuff!!! Just comes naturally

Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!
I think this description hits the nail on the head. Thank you.
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  #57  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:00 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

Thanks everyone for making this thread so dynamic! it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperBomber328 View Post
Prehaps I am not old enough to give any significant insight on Pluto in a personal sense (or judegment to boot), but I have not felt Pluto's so-called "transformations" in my lifetime.

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Astrologer Katherine Hamaker Zondag has an interesting experience of pluto. When she was carrying her first child, the due date was supposed to be in september making the child a virgo.

She experienced the same thing with her second child. She says other astrologers have also had this experience. So maybe pluto has something to do with the endless chain of parents-children-parents-children.
Complicated for me but I'm gonna keep track of more than the psychological effect of Pluto hereforth!


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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Another Pluto in Leo here.... getting to be older 'n dirt. Here's my two cents:

The mighty P is in my 9th, minutes away from my Midheaven, closely conjunct Venus in 9th. Pluto rules my Scorpio Ascendant. Also trines my Moon, and sextiles my Neptune. Leaves my Virgo Sun alone... probably just as well. Aside from trying to become a Virgo over time, Pluto has been THE major influence in my life, one way or another.

I would agree with Raven's comments about Pluto in Leo... Pluto's lessons are often about letting go, and that's very difficult for a Fixed sign. Fortunately, most of us have planets in other elements that may be able to help us adapt to major upheavals.

I think that, at its most basic, Pluto is about transforming rather than about traumatizing. Sometimes it will transform by taking the neat little structure you've erected around your life and blasting it away because it needed to be blasted.

Other times it does its transformative work more slowly over time. I see this very clearly with the Venus-Pluto conjunction, as the Venus function/manifestation has evolved in my life over many years. I believe that's the point of Pluto's close relationship to any personal planet.

When Pluto was minutes away from a transit to my Ascendant, I met my first husband, who was truly a transformative influence on my ... well, on everything -- who I am, what I am. He has since died, but his influence was permanent. There's an example of a positive Pluto-driven change!

Don't know about Pluto's connection to psychology. Maybe that's more an 8th house thing than a Pluto thing, or a good working relationship between Mercury and Pluto? Not so good at it, myself.

I somehow feel Pluto- Scorpio- 8th house have alot in common. It's like saying sex & aggression come from the same source (Mars) & you do find nearly 14 physiological responses similar. It's not the exact thing but parts working in the same fashion.


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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Well... I was an advertising and PR executive with some huge corporate clients, and eventually had my own tiny, at-home ad & PR business (Sun in 10th). Nothing very transformative there. Never famous, either. In fact, I tended to run away from that, for instance by ghost-writing for others, or being dragged reluctantly into public speaking, etc. (I was always amazed if someone said I spoke well, which wasn't always the case, because I couldn't ever recall what I had said... nerves!)

The key to my earlier career, as I see it: the midpoints of my Ascendant and MC, Ascendant-Pluto, Venus-Pluto, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Venus (all pretty much in square aspect) are conjunct my Libra Mercury in the 11th, right around 0 Libra... a hugely sensitive point in my chart. I think my adv/PR career fit very nicely into that configuration. Mercury was and is the funnel for all that wicked energy. And of course Mercury rules my Sun, so ... kind of like falling off a log (South Node also near that 0 Libra point and conjunct Mercury). When I do charts, I always like to check the Asc-MC midpoint to see if there's a planet there... it's always, of course, in the 11th house, and I think a planet conjunct that midpoint tells us what we aspire to do. In my case, I really wanted to be a writer, but ended up writing ad copy and PR releases.... the dream of being a writer died hard, but who knows? maybe some day.

I think Pluto's influence had more to do with my STYLE of working, very focused, highly productive (dare I say 'intense'?) in my younger years. I was a workhorse. If anything was transformed, it was me (Pluto ruling my Asc), because I was quite shy as a teen, and as a young adult I actually set myself the task of becoming more assertive and friendly, and less withdrawn. It more or less worked.

Oddly, now that I'm semi-retired, I'm more reclusive again. (Interesting how these trajectories go!) I now work one-on-one with people, no more big groups. But I've developed a better sense of humor, which is a very good thing... kind of like aged cheese, I suppose.
You kindda loosened my reins on Pluto influence suddenly! I thought 10th P & especially conj MC would lead to a 'POWERFUL' & probably Famous career! This is an interesting manifestation. You are probably strongly Influential so are put forward naturally. 10th I suppose is 'more to public' than your sight. (Like that 10th Neptune of Politicians working illusions on others). Very enjoyable example of pluto's working!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Well.... planets are more visible to the world at MC or Ascendant, but I wouldn't say that makes a planet necessarily more prominent in the way an individual expresses him/herself. There's a difference.

For just one of many "for instances", I'll cite Ernest Hemingway, with Uranus closely conjunct his Sagittarius IC, per Rodden's Placidus chart. (Jupiter resided in his 3rd house; Uranus ruled his 6th by this chart. Sun in Cancer in 11th house mirrors or restates Uranus in the 4th.)

I haven't done any close scrutiny of the man's chart, but I think he LIVED that Uranus/IC aspect, through self-exile to Europe and subsequently traveling a lot, never quite feeling "at home"... or maybe at home everywhere, anywhere. Really itchy feet.

Uranus is his only closely angular planet. Was it visible to the world? Maybe, but he was identified with his home on Key West. Was it prominent in his life? Sure looks that way to me!

By the way, to keep this on topic, Pluto was in Hemingway's 10th house, opposed by Saturn in his 4th. Scorpio intercepted in his 3rd.
This was fun to know!
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  #58  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:12 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
I think Pluto is associated with psychology because it compels us to excavate debris in order to plumb the depths of the unconscious. In Hamaker-Zondag's book entitled, Psychological Astrology, she suggests that the 8th house is the realm of the personal unconscious, where all our repressed personal matters reside.

So if we accept that the 8th house is naturally ruled by Scorpio, then Pluto plays a major role in making us confront unconscious issues, or in forcing us to see the consequences of our refusal to do so.

That old Pluto gets to the unvarnished truth, one way or another!
Psychology is a part of us regardless of a 'subject'. We all need to look at our internal selves just as much as we need to wake up & look at our faces in the mirror everyday! We have to accept where our workings are taking us!

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Originally Posted by !4C View Post
Another Libra Pluto here, except mine is conjunct venus on the IC. Pluto supports venus. I manipulate people to maintain peace and harmony. I like to fix things and keep them as long as possible, versus running out and by new all time.

My attempt at a generalized pluto interpretation:

In a nutshell, pluto represents a system analysis/manipulation process. The process analyzes the characteristics and relationships between all entities within the boundary of focus. Once understood, the system can be manipulated for particular outcomes.

Pluto placements in the chart (natal,progressions, and transits) show where we are LIKELY to focus the pluto process we host as well as where others are likely to focus their pluto process on us.
This is good & fascinating that you're keenly aware of it! Nice.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:24 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Some wise words re Pluto, Judy. I have learned the hard way to `love' Pluto, as I was once afraid of where it was taking me.

The digging deep seems to be behind the interest in psychology/counselling/motivation. I have an enduring interest/passion/obsession with the shadow side of human nature, and especially the motivation of those who behave way outside the law - eg as in murderers, `gurus' such as Jim Jones and David Koresh, etc.

I would also say that my fascination with the darker side of human nature has only emerged slowly and after transiting Pluto squared my Sun-Pluto conjunction in the late 1980's.......................in much the same way, my son only began wearing black clothes after tr Pluto crossed his Scorpio ASC in the mid 1990's. Tr Pluto has the potential for opening parts of us which may not necessarily be `nice', but are fascinating all the same (but mainly to us). Pluto has the potential for exposing these parts of ourselves which we have a need to acknowledge and integrate if we wish to be whole.....that's my theory anyway.

And in relation to what Judy mentioned about attracting Pluto-type clients........ my ex-husband has Scorpio rising, as has one of my sons. That same son has Pluto-Sun conj, and my other son has Pluto opp Moon - he is somewhat more gentle than the rest of us!! I have only learned to enjoy and even love Pluto through discovering my own preferred expression of it.
I have to agree with the interest in dark-subjects. I could always associate myself with gypsies or occultist, magicians, Gothic, Religious-fanatics (Less in the religious but more in the fanatic sense) types. I found Satire & Satan fascinating & my obsession with intense (deathly) relationships (typical of 8th pluto) had seeped through my creative writing since a teenager. Despite no formal degree my insight surpasses my psychologist sibling/ friends & even the few therapists I visited.

Gotta agree to the T-pluto bringing the traits out. I hit my Square to the Moon lately & started obsessing bout my obsessions including occult & magic.
I still love it (except hate it traumatising my career right now... I mean.... transforming! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!
Nice one! I Personally see pluto as that hefty man who throws one on the floor & steps on the back forcing the (poor) individual to succumb to the commands (because it knows what's good for you) & if you show resistance it gives out it's blows with the physical, emotional or sexual violence whilst ending the aggressive battle by killing. (Hmm..... typical 8th Plutonian story?)
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:42 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

I didn't mean to say that Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house have NOTHING in common.... they do!

But for instance the matters of the 8th house include "other people's money", especially wills or legacies or one's spouse's estate. These matters are not associated with Pluto or Scorpio. The Greeks associated Pluto (Hades) with wealth, but Scorpio doesn't confer wealth. (I'm waiting!) So Pluto-Scorpio-8th house are not interchangeable. That's all.

Having said that, I'm reminded that when my mother died (which opened my parents' estate), transit Pluto was just entering into my 2nd house, using the Koch system. You'd think 8th instead of 2nd, right? Of course, 8th is directly opposite the 2nd, so there's that connection. But also, the ruler of my Gemini 8th house cusp, Mercury, was by transit very closely conjunct Pluto, so it was also knocking at the door of the 2nd house. So the conjunction of transit Mercury-Pluto mirrored the opposition of my 2nd and 8th houses.

That's not the only thing that went on in my life when she died, and I hope this doesn't look too callous -- but it was on point.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:42 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

someone is extremely confused.
you are not distinguishing between pluto (gangster/thug) and mars (pugnacious/bully)
pluto is ice cold, doesn't need too lay hands on to intimidate or set straight, knows the hidden power
oh a stare overva fist and is all a mind game of control and domination.
mars is blind aggressive actor.
best not to confuse things.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:28 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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someone is extremely confused.
you are not distinguishing between pluto (gangster/thug) and mars (pugnacious/bully)
The similarity is there minus the intensity. Mars doesn't necessarily kill. I wouldn't agree to the thug/gangster part. They might create traumatic transformation but hardly anything we can look back & thank for. As an obvious Pluto fan, I have alot of Good faith in it (Including the dark side). But the symbolism I suppose is not so significant.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:33 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
I didn't mean to say that Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house have NOTHING in common.... they do!

But for instance the matters of the 8th house include "other people's money", especially wills or legacies or one's spouse's estate. These matters are not associated with Pluto or Scorpio. The Greeks associated Pluto (Hades) with wealth, but Scorpio doesn't confer wealth. (I'm waiting!) So Pluto-Scorpio-8th house are not interchangeable. That's all.

.
Agreed 100%. Dead-on-track regarding Scorpio. I'll actually WAIT to see if it works.
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:03 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

I'm wearing sunglasses from now on to hide my cold, evil stare from unsuspecting innocents. (Shaking my fist here.)
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
I'm wearing sunglasses from now on to hide my cold, evil stare from unsuspecting innocents. (Shaking my fist here.)
one can be a gangster or thug for good. it's all in the method of delivery.
look at robin hood.
made good use of OPM.
bill gates thugged the computer industry and is giving away billions.
that's pluto.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:52 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
one can be a gangster or thug for good. it's all in the method of delivery.
look at robin hood.
made good use of OPM.
bill gates thugged the computer industry and is giving away billions.
that's pluto.
Cleverly put and funny!
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:01 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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I think that Pluto is very personal in every chart even though it's an "outer" or "transpersonal" planet.... which i feel is a very misleading term.

It's especially personal when it's in the 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th houses. AND especially so if conjunct another planet, as it does with your Jupiter (and add to THAT the fact that Jupiter is itself ruled by Pluto.)

Everything about your Pluto is very big and very personal and often secretive (being in Scorpio's house.) Your motivations are often subliminal, preprogrammed or caused by early trauma. So I can understand why you would be very interested in this.
But I am not sure another person's experience can actually help YOU. After all, a chart is like a fingerprint so my experiences with Pluto would be different from yours, even if I had it in the same house.

You need to deeply study your 8th house and all connected to it. Just follow the clues.
LIN
It may be an outer planet of the solar system and it is generational and slowing moving in its nature but it packs a powerful punch anytime it connects with our personal planets. I am heavily Plutonian with a Scorpio MC. 8th house stellium and personal planet connections. It is a heavy trip and very intense. It creates major transformations from chaos and crises and it either "kills" or makes you stronger. True Pluto people know that we go on and never die really just pass into other realms. Everyone's experience is different of course and we handle it all depending on our level of maturity, soul evolvement and so on. Even the easy or flowing aspects are heavy and intense but more easily recognised and handled.

A planet never rules another planet by the way.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:16 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

My Pluto in the 6th of health and diet affects the eliminative organs such as bowels and have periodic issues with that. Also sexual harassment in the workplace and witness to death on the job. Betrayal by co workers especially women with the square to Moon. Jealousies and sexual rivalry there. However involved with Pluto industries such as estate matters, life insurance, secret investigations into the criminal and the underworld. Pluto sextile Venus in the 8th means earning money from the aforementioned industries. Also a penchant for the taboo and the dark man such as negro for sexual attraction.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:20 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Agreed 100%. Dead-on-track regarding Scorpio. I'll actually WAIT to see if it works.
Inheritance, gifts, bonuses, estate matters and goods of the dead belong with 8th house which Pluto rules and is ruled by Scorpio so they are connected and part of the sign house planet trio. Shared assets or partner's monies or assets belong with the 8th house and Pluto which is the 7th house of partners and their assets 2nd house added= 8th house in derivative terms.

Wealth conferred in that way for sure coming from others depending on the planets there and aspects or lack of it. Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house deal with global corporations and any powerful organisation that affects the planet profoundly.

Personal wealth or lack of it belongs with our 2nd house and Taurus and means using our own talents and values to gain material security and what we spend it on.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:33 PM
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Cleverly put and funny!
I dont agree, theft and thuggery is still that. That the motivation may be for the good of someone else who is "poor" and who by the way may or or may not deserve what is given to them in that way is another issue. We are all in a certain situation of life through our actions both past and present. That money or goods were taken against another's will, or others were dominated or monopoly took place as a power play, is still wrong and karma must be borne for that. That some powerful people recognise that and make recompense for their actions is what motivates their seeming generosity and philanthropy as they know instinctively that karma must be copped. Sociopathic bank CEO's are an exception.

You have to look at the bigger picture. .
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Last edited by Claire19; 04-29-2012 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:38 PM
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Claire19 Claire19 is offline
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
someone is extremely confused.
you are not distinguishing between pluto (gangster/thug) and mars (pugnacious/bully)
pluto is ice cold, doesn't need too lay hands on to intimidate or set straight, knows the hidden power
oh a stare overva fist and is all a mind game of control and domination.
mars is blind aggressive actor.
best not to confuse things.
Pluto is the motivator and instigator and Mars the perpetrator. You are so right!! Pluto is subtle, underhanded and covert. Mars is extroverted, out there and overt. Pluto is the private detective that follows the cheating spouse, gathers evidence and Mars is the guy that kills that cheater.
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Last edited by Claire19; 04-29-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:46 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: Pluto in our lives

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Shared assets or partner's monies or assets belong with the 8th house and Pluto which is the 7th house of partners and their assets 2nd house added.
I don't recall ever seeing/hearing that Pluto itself (forget the 8th house) rules shared assets. I'm curious to know where that comes from. Or are you just talking about the 8th house, which of course does rule such things?
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:31 AM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: Pluto in our lives

Some of the comments here are about Pluto as a "pure" planet entity, as in an astro book (I was going to say "cookbook"), and others are about how it works in our charts and lives -- which is the subject of this thread.

Pluto does have his dark side, for sure, especially in the more difficult aspects. But he is not very subtle, underhanded or icy when he is aspecting any of the personal planets. Pretty hard to ignore if he's closely joined with your Sun or Moon, say. And he will influence the aspected planet's expression ... as any other planet would do in the same situation.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:08 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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Re: Pluto in our lives

Claire ~
bringing it up here for lack of better place.
you often contradict yourself.
you seem to have an understanding of pluto's energies, but yet contradict his manifestations.
please explain your understanding of pluto?
i try constantly to decipher your contradictions, but can only find Libra.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:33 AM
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SniperBomber328 SniperBomber328 is offline
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Re: Pluto in our lives

What is the "correct" explanation for Pluto in any way? Pluto was just discovered in 1930, that is less than a century for people to observe, assess and release "official" traits in regards to Pluto. What took the ancients some centuries to millennia(s) to attribute the inners/lumanaries/outers might take us just as long before we have correct explanations for the Higher Outers.

Just saying.
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