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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #26  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:10 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

There are some interesting ancient teachings...

Around the fifth century B.C. there appeared for the first time maxims that related a man's birthdate to his possible destiny. At first these predictions were obviously made only for the kings. The forecasts were based on the motion of the planets. Here are a few examples translated by Sachs:

If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long.
If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long.
"If a child is born when Venus has come forth, (then his life will be) exceptionally calm; wherever he may go, it will be favorable; his days will be long.

In general, the rising (i.e. the 12th HOUSE!) of heavenly bodies was considered favorable because then the positive characteristics of the gods were at their peak. By contrast, the setting of the same bodies was held to be a bad omen.

Astrology was born five thousand years ago in Chaldea. The Chaldeans developed the zodiacal system, which astronomers still use. The Babylonians, who succeeded the Sumerians, developed the art of prediction to a considerable extent. The Chaldean priest-astronomers divided the sky into three large strips, which they called "the heavenly paths" - in the middle was Anu's way, flanked by the paths of Enlil and Ea. Anu's way was the zodiac astronomers use today: a space sixteen degrees wide, which contains the constantly repeated path of the sun, the moon, and the planets.

The zodiacal belt with its constellations was known in Babylonia as early as 700 b.c. The first tablet of the series Mulapin lists "the constellations in the path of the moon" as follows:

the hair bush = Pleiades
the bull of Anu = Taurus
Anu's true shepherd = Orion
the old man = Perseus
sickle sword = Auriga
the great twins = Gemini
Prokyon or Cancer
lion or lioness = Leo
furrow = Spica
the scales = Libra
scorpion = Scorpio
archer = Sagittarius
goatfish = Capricornus
great star or giant = Aquarius
the tails = Pisces
the great swallow = Pegasi
the Goddess Anunitum = Pisces + middle part of dromedes
the hireling = Aries

The rules by which predictions were made were a mixture of observations and ANALOGIES. For instance, the shape of Scorpio reminded the Chaldean priest of the hated insect whose pincers seemed to be marked in the sky by two brilliant stars. The celestial Scorpio was held to be just as fearsome as the poisonous scorpion of the desert: "If Mars approaches Scorpio, the King must die of the bite of this insect."

The priests had some difficulty in following Mercury, since that planet, the closest to the sun, is often hidden by the latter's stronger light. The Chaldeans held it to be the dwelling of Nebo, a god who was untrustworthy, shy, shrewd, and voluble. So mercury is considered untrustworthy only because they couldn't see it so well?

"If Mars is visible in the month of Tammuz (June-July), the warrior's bed will stay cold\" (that is, there will be war). "If Mercury is seen in the North, there will be many corpses; the King of Akkad will invade a foreign country."


Last edited by Carris; 04-16-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:37 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Good info!

Yeah, Libra used to be the claws of the Scorpion then, later became the Scales.

Understand though that there are the signs and then there are the constellations. The signs are, more or less, convenient placeholders. The constellations, which are used as fixed stars and mansions, are still in use as well.

So, Mercury got the reputation he does because he cannot be seen. Viable since even today, people do not trust with that cannot see. Hell, they cannot even trust what they can see anymore!
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:44 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

hi carris,

a distinction needs to be made between planetary phase and house position.. planetary phase is often used to describe the relationship between a planet and the sun.. believe the descriptions you have offered here from long ago are about planetary phase, not house positions.. if i am correct on this then the term 'coming forth" is about coming out of the rays of the sun and with the exception of the moon, rising before the sun.. the moon which moves at a faster rate of speed then all the planets and sun and would be rising after the sun, although 'coming forth' out of the suns light.. not sure if you follow, but i believe that is what this info is about..
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:52 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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hi carris,

a distinction needs to be made between planetary phase and house position.. planetary phase is often used to describe the relationship between a planet and the sun.. believe the descriptions you have offered here from long ago are about planetary phase, not house positions.. if i am correct on this then the term 'coming forth" is about coming out of the rays of the sun and with the exception of the moon, rising before the sun.. the moon which moves at a faster rate of speed then all the planets and sun and would be rising after the sun, although 'coming forth' out of the suns light.. not sure if you follow, but i believe that is what this info is about..
No - they are quite clear about the ring and setting of planets - they definitely thought of the 12th house in a positive way. There is more clear information on it:

The tablets that recorded the forecasts based on the setting of the planets have been lost, but we know the evil influence attributed to the setting from the previsions based on the motions of two planets at a time, one of which is on the way up, the other on the way down: "If a child is born when Jupiter comes forth and Venus has set, it will go excellently with that man; his wife will leave and . . ." The rest of the fragment is missing, but its meaning is clear. We have seen that Jupiter represents the King. If it rises when Venus, its bride, disappears over the horizon: "his wife will leave," that is, she will have to die before him.

The decline of Jupiter was a bad omen for the King: "If a child is born when Venus comes forth and Jupiter has set, his wife will be stronger than he." As she rises, Venus dominates her groom, Jupiter, who is disappearing in the darkness. Some royal predictions based on the twelve signs of the zodiac have been found.

Its clear from this that they refer to rising and setting of the planets.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Good point! Hey, can you post that over on the 12th house thread that was going? Might be worth revisiting that 12th house topic.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:11 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Good point! Hey, can you post that over on the 12th house thread that was going? Might be worth revisiting that 12th house topic.
Thanks - yes thats a good idea - I'll do that.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:28 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

hi carris,

could you be so kind as to share the source - internet or book - where you are pulling the info from? thanks

one link on planetary phase
http://www.astronomy-education.com/index.php?page=154

better link on planetary phase written by an astrologer
http://heavenastrolabe.net/the-sun-a...f-the-planets/

yet another one which the author above sources
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34&start=10

Last edited by sandstone; 04-16-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:03 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
hi moog,

we can always make adjustments to make astro appear a few different ways.
Yes we can. And should, if we are to make comparative studies.

Quote:
ali's mars is in 10th whole sign regardless of whether one switches into sidereal or not.. i was mostly giving an example of a sidereal mars in taurus that seemed just as effective.. i looked at a few whereby mars would be in cancer sidereal too. that was all i was thinking with that example which wouldn't hinge any on the time of day he was born.
True. I just think the signs do matter, unlike Gauquelin, Kepler et al. Taurus definitely isn't a bad sign for Mars.

Aries is just the domicile of Mars, that's all. Domicile planets + angularity = more oomph than angularity or domicile alone. Mahapurusha yogas

I've been looking briefly at charts of 'eminent' sports people, and some do have Mars in Cancer. Tends to be angular though.

I can't say for sure what is and isn't possible with a fallen planet in an angle, especially given good support in the rest of the chart. My experience isn't complete enough to know right now. I will enjoy finding out.

Quote:
as for the gauguelin material and taking apart - i agree that it is good to try to breakdown all of the ideas and work of others in astrology regardless the era.. i think "tearing apart" might be what i see some folks wanting to do with gauguelins work, which is different then taking it apart. either way the work the gauguelins did warrants consideration.. it plays into our ideas about house systems as well.. dr farr correctly points out at the time they did their work, the whole-sign house system wasn't known.. one does wonder how much this would have altered the results.. unfortunately i am unaware of anyone doing research at present in a similar manner.. i think it would be of great benefit to astrology if someone was.
Well, I hope I'm not one seen to be tearing into it, because like I say, I do respect the work. I just don't feel like it's an entirely done and dusted investigation.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:15 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

hi moog,

indeed.. making comparative studies is educational. comparing anything is informative. the idea of sign/zodiac position verses angularity is especially interesting when the idea of angularity means a number of different things to different astrologers.. depending on what house system they use and on whether these same questions of angularity are captured in the gauguelin material or not is another outstanding question, unanswered. we could have a planet stretching from anywhere in the 1st house to the 12th house that some might consider angular while others might not, all dependent on the house system they use and how they interpret the house system too..
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:34 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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..........And too jupiterasc when you have the notion of why the 6th is better because it trines the MC....well in that logic, shouldn't the 5th be stronger than the 11th since the 5th trines the AC?
Not necessarily SniperBomber328 - a planet in the 5th trine the ASC is below the horizon while being carried by diurnal motion downwards towards the IC... and the IC is not as powerful as the MC.

A planet in the 11th is not only above the horizon but is also being carried by diurnal motion towards the 10th - and the 10th is more powerful than the IC
.

Hellenistically there are other considerations. For Horary and medieval astrology the house priority order is 1,10,7,4,11,5,9,3,2,8,6,12
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:44 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

hi carris,

i have found a link with the partial info you cite in your post above to which i will include a wee bit more.. for anyone interested in reading further and learning about helical rising and setting of planets which is also discussed briefly, they can follow the link..
here is a part left off carris's message that some might like to read as well.. 100 word limit?
31) If a child is born when Mercury has come forth, (then his life? will be) brave, lordly ............
32) If a child is born when Mars has come forth, (then) ......, hot (?) temper (?).
33) If a child is born when Saturn has come forth, (then his life? will be) dark, obscure, sick, and constrained./263/ . . .

http://www.smoe.org/arcana/diss1.html
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:40 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Yes we can. And should, if we are to make comparative studies.

True. I just think the signs do matter, unlike Gauquelin, Kepler et al. Taurus definitely isn't a bad sign for Mars.

Aries is just the domicile of Mars, that's all. Domicile planets + angularity = more oomph than angularity or domicile alone. Mahapurusha yogas

I've been looking briefly at charts of 'eminent' sports people, and some do have Mars in Cancer. Tends to be angular though.

I can't say for sure what is and isn't possible with a fallen planet in an angle, especially given good support in the rest of the chart. My experience isn't complete enough to know right now. I will enjoy finding out.

Well, I hope I'm not one seen to be tearing into it, because like I say, I do respect the work. I just don't feel like it's an entirely done and dusted investigation.
Moog there's an interesting recent comment re this matter on the "Traditional Modern Contemporary" thread at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43020&page=11

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Sorry to have taken so long to respond. I've been distracted by family crises and developments.

It was more than good. It was a brilliant and heroic effort that has stood up remarkably well to the attempts of skeptics to discredit it. Three successive skeptics groups tried and failed. Each behaved irrationally and even hysterically in the face of findings they knew couldn't be valid because they knew astrological effects couldn't exist. They violated protocols agreed to by themselves and the Gauquelins, protocols to which the Gauquelins scrupulously adhered. In several instances they made additional demands necessitating years of additional work by the Gauquelins, which they undertook without complaint. When results didn't turn out as they expected they stalled, kept the Gauquelins in the dark, and eventually released statements that were less than fully honest. Philosopher Paul Kurtz, the driving force behind one of the groups, resorted to what would be called outright cheating if it was done deliberately. (I don't know if it was.) That same group shut out one of its most respected members, Dennis Rawlins, when he protested what was going on. He subsequently wrote an expose, sTarbaby, which was published in Fate magazine. Throughout the Gauquelins' behavior was exemplary, that of the skeptics groups an embarrassment to other skeptics dismayed by their treatment of the Gauquelins and their failure to abide by the principles of free inquiry. It's not just astrologers who hem and haw, back and fill when results don't appear to support their deepest beliefs.

The Mars effect controversy bears a striking resemblance to the earlier one involving Wegner's continental drift hypothesis, in which circumstantial evidence was discounted or ignored because how could massive continents plow through solid oceanic crust? Once convincing evidence was provided showing not only that continental drift had occurred but how it could occur resistance collapsed virtually overnight. The entire earth sciences community converted during 1965-66, and a couple of years later the theory of plate tectonics was born, leading to the more rigorous and effective level of research that has characterized the earth sciences ever since. There is a lesson here for astrological researchers. Until we can explain how astrological effects could possibly exist any evidence we offer that they exist is going to be discounted, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I've written about astrological causation, but making sense of astrology is possible only if we're willing to reconsider what sorts of effects actually exist and how astrology actually works, something astrologers are strikingly resistant to doing. As you note above it might require a paradigm shift, and such shifts are always vehemently resisted.

More recently Geoffrey Dean thinks he has a non-astrological explanation for the Gauquelin findings, which he calls social attribution. He thinks parents, especially during the 19th century and especially in the rural areas from which much of the Gauquelin data was drawn, have tended to avoid reporting births on dates or for times considered unlucky or evil, such as Halloween, Friday the 13th, midnight, etc., and have tended to prefer fortunate dates. Also, he claims that following almanacs in which rising, culminating and setting times are given was much more common then than now. I have read his arguments carefully since I last wrote here and there is something about them that bothers me, but I'll need to reread (and ponder) several more times before I can get clear on it. It's a serious challenge, not to be taken lightly. I'm not entirely convinced, but neither am I willing to dismiss his statistics and the interpretation he puts on them until I understand both more fully. In any case even if the Gauquelin findings evaporate it doesn't necessarily prove astrology doesn't exist. There are other lines of research I've been following in recent years which suggest the existence of astrological effects, albeit not the kinds of effects the overwhelming majority of astrologers believe in. Whatever is or might be true about astrology is obscured by an awful lot of nonsense.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:54 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Thanks JUPITERASC. I have been following that thread, bits of it anyway.

I can't really imagine how holding back births for inauspicious days would affect the data.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:13 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Thanks JUPITERASC. I have been following that thread, bits of it anyway.

I can't really imagine how holding back births for inauspicious days would affect the data.
Moog, if - in order to avoid "inauspicious days" - parents then reported births as occurring on days other than those days on which the births actually did occur then obviously, the house position of the planets as they were on the "auspicious days" could indeed differ from the house position of planets as they were for the actual birth on the inauspicious day.

Particularly if there is a difference of several days/weeks between the actual date of birth on the "inauspicious day"
and the claimed date of birth on the more auspicious day.

Thus invalidating the particular data collected from those parents at that time by the researchers
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:19 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Ahh, I need to read things more closely (and get some sleep, probably). I had the idea that they were simply omitting to report the children at all
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:40 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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In general, the rising (i.e. the 12th HOUSE!) of heavenly bodies was considered favorable because then the positive characteristics of the gods were at their peak. By contrast, the setting of the same bodies was held to be a bad omen.
Excellent information Carris, and thanks for sharing it. I think that there may be one point here to be understood, in that when using whole sign, which is far older than any quadrant based system, and I believe what the ancients you refer to used, the rising sign was the 1st house, not the 12th. So a planet in the same sign as the ASC is considered to be rising. I also know that dr. farr has pointed out that the Hellenists gave different distinction to planets in the first whole sign house that were above the ASC (considered in the 12th today) than to planets that were below. Not to make too big a deal of it, but if we want to understand what those ancient astrologers were doing, we need to use the house system they were using. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Placidus.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:14 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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Excellent information Carris, and thanks for sharing it. I think that there may be one point here to be understood, in that when using whole sign, which is far older than any quadrant based system, and I believe what the ancients you refer to used, the rising sign was the 1st house, not the 12th. So a planet in the same sign as the ASC is considered to be rising. I also know that dr. farr has pointed out that the Hellenists gave different distinction to planets in the first whole sign house that were above the ASC (considered in the 12th today) than to planets that were below. Not to make too big a deal of it, but if we want to understand what those ancient astrologers were doing, we need to use the house system they were using. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Placidus.
Thanks Tsmall.

But - what about all the births when the ascendant was in beginning of signs and planets were in the previous sign?

There must be many people born with ascendants at 0 to 10 degrees of a sign and planets in the previous sign. In that case are the planets not considered to be in the 12th house - even in whole house system?

My saturn was 20 degrees risen above the eastern horizon when I was born - would you consider that as the 1st house? Saturn was in 15 gemini and my ascendant is 5 cancer. Are you saying that the ancients would consider gemini to be my 1st house? That does not make sense! They are very clear about rising and setting planets and what that means.

Lets suppose: The king was born with jupiter at 21* aries and ascendant at 10* taurus. So would the ancients still consider jupiter to be in the 1st house? Would the king suddenly become unlucky? Jupiter is not considered to be "rising" anymore?

Last edited by Carris; 04-17-2012 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:07 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

The collection of Babylonian horoscopes that Sachs translated, dated between 409 and 141 B.C., is an unsurpassed source of documentation. These are not yet the horoscopes we know today, nor the ones the Greeks were familiar with. As Sachs writes, "No Babylonian horoscope mentions the Horoscopus (the computed zodiacal sign or point rising at the time of birth) or any of the secondary astrological positions which play important roles in Greco-Roman astrology.

The Greek word horoscopos literally means: "I watch that which is rising" Originally the word was not used to refer to the whole planetary pattern at the moment of birth, as it is today, but only to the point of the zodiac rising over the horizon at the exact moment of birth. The idea is that, at birth, the infant is submitted to the influence of the constellation that is also being born. This "horoscope" point is just an abstract segment of the skies, yet it assumes a basic importance, since the whole orientation of the future depends on it. The child is seen as a sensitive photographic plate. At the very instant in which he gives forth his first cry, all the astrological influences converge on his cradle and blend together to develop his destiny.

Last edited by Carris; 04-17-2012 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:05 AM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Ancient (but not Babylonian**) astrology considers the entire sign which contains the ascending degree to be the first house. If a rising planet is NOT in that sign, then, although the planet is rising, it is NOT considered to be in the first house. Within that first house, if a planet is at or above the ascending degree, it was delineated differently than if it were in the first house but below the specific ascending degree (see for example, Liber Hermetis, regarding the discussion of the Sun in the first house, ie, the Sun being in the sign of the ascending degree, but above vs below that specific ascending degree relative to delineative ramifications)
The ancient concept of horoscope was exactly as Carris mentions: it was the zodion (sign) in which the exact rising degree (ascending degree) was posited at the moment of birth: everything and anything in that sign = being in the horoscope, and the relationship within that sign to the ascending degree in that sign, was taken into consideration as being the essence of the horoscope.


**Babylonian astrology was not Hellenist (or Vedic) astrology; one big difference is that the Babylonians used the equator rather than the ecliptic as their point of reference (at least through around the 4th century BC, possibly through the 2nd century) That makes a very important difference! Concepts of domification were also not (apparaently) developed in Babylonian astrology, which concepts played such a significant role in Hellenistic (and later Western) astrology, as well as in Vedic astrology. From available historical sources it seems Hellenistic astrology borrowed from Babylonian (and even moreso, Egyptian) astrological doctrines, to create its own unique approach, but the fact remains that Hellenist astrology was not a COPY of either Babylonian or Egyptian doctrines.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-17-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:18 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

carris,

indeed - helical rising is what they are talking about in the document you quoted from. this is separate from a view on the ascendant or a treatise on house positions which would have come much later in the chronology..

heliacal rising: it’s when the planet becomes visible before the rising of the Sun, and it increases in light and it is very fast. In this moment as all the new things it is moist in temperament and very strong in the birth chart.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/the-sun-a...f-the-planets/
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:22 PM
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

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carris,

indeed - helical rising is what they are talking about in the document you quoted from. this is separate from a view on the ascendant or a treatise on house positions which would have come much later in the chronology..

heliacal rising: it’s when the planet becomes visible before the rising of the Sun, and it increases in light and it is very fast. In this moment as all the new things it is moist in temperament and very strong in the birth chart.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/the-sun-a...f-the-planets/
I read that link - it does not connect with what I'm quoting from chaldean astrology - it would have clearly mentioned "comes forth before the sun" instead of:

If a child is born when the moon has come forth, (then his life will be) bright, excellent, regular and long.
If a child is born when Jupiter has come forth, (then his life will be) regular, well; he will become rich, he will grow old, (his) days will be long.
"If a child is born when Venus has come forth, (then his life will be) exceptionally calm; wherever he may go, it will be favorable; his days will be long.

and

The Greek word horoscopos literally means: "I watch that which is rising" Originally the word was not used to refer to the whole planetary pattern at the moment of birth, as it is today, but only to the point of the zodiac rising over the horizon at the exact moment of birth. The idea is that, at birth, the infant is submitted to the influence of the constellation that is also being born.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:50 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

carris we appear to be having much the same conversation on 2 seperate threads.. this one and the 12th house thread..

i am aware of what the greek work horocsopos means.. thanks. i believe the 'coming forth' quotes you have shared earlier are prior to greek horoscopos and about helical rising of planets, not about house positions.. nothing you have shared so far has convinced me otherwise.. if there is something whereby you can share that can do so, please do..
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:17 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

It is safe to say that there were not house systems extant in ancient ancient astrology. Those came later. There were signs but, no houses. So, we don;t need to worry about the difference between house and sign back then.

Also, what the ancients called "houses" were really signs.

Still, a planet rising (what they saw) has marked difference, generally, from our interpretation now.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:36 PM
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tsmall tsmall is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Carris, I'm just a new student, but since you asked, I will answer to the best of my understanding so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
But - what about all the births when the ascendant was in beginning of signs and planets were in the previous sign?

There must be many people born with ascendants at 0 to 10 degrees of a sign and planets in the previous sign. In that case are the planets not considered to be in the 12th house - even in whole house system?
A planet not in the same sign as the ASC is not in the first house at all, ever in whole sign. So if someone has an early ASC degree and a planet in the 12th sign from the ASC, that planet is in the 12th, not th 1st.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carris View Post
My saturn was 20 degrees risen above the eastern horizon when I was born - would you consider that as the 1st house? Saturn was in 15 gemini and my ascendant is 5 cancer. Are you saying that the ancients would consider gemini to be my 1st house? That does not make sense! They are very clear about rising and setting planets and what that means.
No, I would not consider your Saturn to be in the 1st. That is one idea that I think got lost or conflated with quadrant based house systems, where it was necessary to consider how close a planet was to the cusp to decide what house it belonged in. dr. farr can probably explain better, but the idea of angularity, and whetherplanets could be considered angular (very powerful/having full ability to act,) succedent (less powerful but still able to act,) or cadent (as JUPITERASC pointed out, very limited ability to act or create events) comes from the degrees from the angles. I may be misremembering, but if a planet is 15* before up to 15* degrees after an angle, it is strengthened, even if it isn't in the same sign as the angle. There are circumstances in which planets in the 12th and not angular can be strengthened, and that is yet another reason the whole chart has to be considered, not just one planet, or one aspect.

In the example you give of your own Saturn in Gemini it is 20* above the ASC, and so in the 12th by sign and cadent by angularity. However, Saturn is said to joy in the 12th.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:47 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: Stuck in a Conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

...A planet not in the same sign as the ASC is not in the first house at all, ever in whole sign. So if someone has an early ASC degree and a planet in the 12th sign from the ASC, that planet is in the 12th, not th 1st.
...
Now someone correct me if I am wrong but....Whole Sign is not really a house system but, a lack thereof.

Comparitively, Equal house system is a house system distinct from the signs but, Whole Sign is simply that, signs...no houses. So, for example, the ASC in Whole Sign can be under the earth which, really makes no sense as it is the 'rising sign' but, I get the fact that Whole Sign system takes the 'rising sign' and simply put the whole sing first rather than the actual ASC.

Another thought; since the ancient may have also considered the cusp the middle of the house, and I have no idea how that would work with Whole Signs specfically but, assuming it did, then a planet could actually be in the ASC or 1st sign and not in the 12th even though it was above the horizon.

Not trying to be difficult here but some of this simply does not match but is more like a patchwork of various times and techniques being thrown together way out of context.
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