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Horary Questions on Travelling, moving and relocation Questions about travels, changing residence, relocation and related.


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  #1  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:13 AM
Mandy Mandy is offline
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Question MOVE or STAY?

Hi lovlies!

We have a bit of a dire situation. Its not me. Its my friend. And the situation is:

She moved to London (several years ago), from Holland, with her husband and children. At the time, her husband had a great job and they recently bought this larger, beautiful, house. Now, with the recession, her husband has lost his job. She doesnt work. They have two children. And, the time has come where unless one, or both, of them gets a well paid job (and they are both professionals), they will have to sell the house and move back to Holland. They are all desperate to find a way to stay in the UK.

In desperation, she has asked me to cast an horary, for the time she called to ask me the question, and to ask if the horarists here could help and see: if there are any indications regarding whether they will have to sell the house and move home to Holland, or whether they will find a way to stay in London (England). Are there any indications on what they will need to do in order to stay?

Thank you. I attach the chart at the bottom of the page.

Best Wishes,

x

P.s., I've never attempted to interpret a relocation horary before, but, here, I assume she will still be the Asc and the moon and, possibly the other significators are rulers of the 4th (home) and 9th (travel), respectively.

I'm not sure if the 4th house, here, represents Holland, their native home, or London, their current home. Nevertheless, since the moon is applying to Mars in 4th, and separating from Saturn, ruler of 9th, I'd say they will not need to travel and so, then, are likely stay in London. But then the square between the sun and the moon makes me think it will not be a favorable for them outcome and so maybe the native home in Holland (i.e., 4th) is going to be the final outcome.
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File Type: jpg Hanneke.horary.move.jpg (91.5 KB, 19 views)
File Type: png Hanneke.horary.move. aspects.png (36.5 KB, 2 views)


Last edited by Mandy; 03-30-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:59 PM
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Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

It seems like it could go either way, but I get the feeling that they'll end up being able to stay. The Fourth house is where they are now, the Seventh is where they're thinking about going. The Fourth house ruler is the Exalted Sun in the 11th, showing that's where they want to stay (the Eleventh rules wishes and hopes) whereas the Seventh house lord is Jupiter in Taurus in the 12th. Jupiter is also in a mutual reception with the Moon by exaltations which would put it about the same level as the Sun, which makes either scenario possible.

The Moon's last aspect was a Trine from Saturn, ruler of the Tenth, which could hint about the job loss, after that she Sextiles Mars who rules the Sixth. This could show employment, but Sixth house employment isn't what we would call "professional" or "well paid" work, so I'm not sure it would really solve the problem completely. With Mars being retrograde, it could show going back to something, so maybe they'll do something they did before they became professionals for a little while.

Our querent's here are shown by the ill dignified and retrograde Mercury, which could mean they aren't thinking clearly and aren't weighing all their options realistically or it could be a more literal take on retrograde and show them moving back. I do think they will ultimately be able to stay though even though it seems like moving back to Holland would be pretty effortless (Mercury is received by Jupiter). Mercury is in a good aspect with a benefic, the Fourth is in a Fixed Sign, and Gemini is the Ascending Sign of the city of London as well.
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:37 PM
Mandy Mandy is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Thank you for your response Kaiousei no Senshi. In regard to your middle paragraph, could the Mars (Rx), as ruler of 6th, indicate that they will have trouble finding even a little (i.e., non-prof) job? In which case the planets, altogether, would show more in favour of loosing and being forced to go back to Holland?

P.s., I'm not insulting your interprative technique, because I dont know horary at all, just attempting to ascertain a more hopeful/less hopeful answer.


Anyway, thank you, again, very much. X x

Last edited by Mandy; 03-31-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:19 AM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

For me, with the SN in the ascending sign (in Gemini) the chart indications are unreliable for delineation (SN in the ascendant is pretty much my only stricture vs judgement in horary), so, I would say: have this person re-ask this same question at a later time (when they are motivated to do so)
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:24 PM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Thank you very much Dr. Farr. I have passed on your instruction (with additional asking instruction).

Sincerely, X x
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:21 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
It seems like it could go either way, but I get the feeling that they'll end up being able to stay....
Yeah. I had to really think on thsi one but, I have to agree with the above. For me, here is why:

Mercury (and Moon), them
London, Leo
Holland, Jupiter

The angles are all mutable and Mercury is retrgrade and detrimented. They really are not doing too hot. But, Mercury does have a mixed reception with Mars, near the 5th and Mercury rules the 5th. This tells me they will move but, instead of being in London, they may move near the outskirts or nearby.

The Moon confirms this by sextile to Mars, at least it this is how it looks to me.

Obviously they cannot get to Jupiter or the Sun in this horary so, Mars is where they are going and he is near the 4th, but not in it. Since the Moon is in Cancer, I would have to say it is north-northeast direction.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:48 PM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Thank you very much for considering this question beautiful auntie Anachiel. I have relayed your analysis to my friend who is also very grateful. Probably, I suggested, they could sell up and buy a smaller place just outside of London/perhaps even applying for jobs over that area would prove more profitable for them; to consider these more creative options, and keep faith. I will keep you updated.

Thank you very much.
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:05 PM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Hello darlings! In a previous post (just above) Dr. Farr had suggested that my friend asks the question again. If it is not too much trouble, and anyone is willing to take another looksie for clairification, here is the new chart (attached). The question is: "Are we going back to Holland?"

First chart attached is Regio; second chart attached is Whole signs; Third attached is aspects.

They, Venus, are in the 9th of travel, conjunct the south node = I'd say not good and Holland. Also, in mutable house, makes me think they will be moving.
Mars, ruler of 2nd money, since money is the problem here, Mars remains weakened and applying to the Moon, which makes me think again, that the money situation remains a problem for them, as it happens in a fixed house.
If London is the Sun, then it lies strong in Aries, but I cant comment on the Jupiter/Sun situation. I just dont know.

Hopefully someone will chime in. Merci beaucoup!

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hanneke.horary.move2.Regio.jpg (81.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Hanneke.horary.move2.Wholesigns.jpg (78.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: png Hanneke.horary.move2.aspects.png (37.5 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by Mandy; 04-13-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:01 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

No no no.....I'd say it was too early to ask....it's a rather early ASC.

Nothing has changed yet for them since the last time they asked the same question. And, asking again simply confuses the original question.

It's like telling someone to ask rather than their being motivated and inspired by chance or circumstance to ask...it doesn't work....
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:25 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Not from my perspective: since I consider a chart with the SN in the ascendant a defunct (not applicaable) horary, then it is as if the horary yielding the ascending SN were never asked: so, from this perspective, re-asking is legitimate.
NOTE, however, that this certainly is NOT the teaching of standard horary-rather this outlook follows the ideas of Gerard of Cremona, Agrippa, and a few others, regarding the implication of the SN in the ascendant in horary (and also in astrological geomancy as well), which I have come to believe (by experience) to be a valid outlook.
So,-based on this perspective-I will delineate the re-asked question AS IF it had been asked for the very first time.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:32 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Well, perspectives are certainly something that we are not short of here.

My concern is really for the querents. Obviously they are asking the question because they do not know what is going to happen to them. In other words, they don't YET have to move or they would not be asking the question.

From a traditional horary viewpoint (which, I know you disposed of sometime ago), an early ascendant MAY indicate the querents are not ready for an answer, it too early to give an answer because all the pieces are not there or the matter is still in flux and changeable (like the querent's minds). Therefore, they caution with giving an answer for the aforementioned lest it perhaps sway the querents into something premature. I can respect that.

Obviously, they DID ask a question so the SN in the ASC is...well, not descriptive of their not asking a question. But, I have been wrong before and therefore try to tread lightly in people's affairs and decision making. So, have a nut!

I'm just curious though, wasn't Gerard of Cremonia a Geomancer? I know he wrote about astrological geomancy and for geomancy, SN in the ASC is a stricture but, we aren't doing geomancy here.....Agrippa, also geomancy, not horary.
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Last edited by Anachiel; 04-14-2012 at 02:42 AM. Reason: Did Gerard write about horary??
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:50 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

For me, they asked but the Cosmos "put up" the SN in the ascendant, saying "no reliable answer" now: so, for me, the querent's could re-ask again whenever motivated to do so.

Agrippa was an occultist, he did geomancy and also horary astrology; Gerard of Cremona (contemporary with Guido Bonatti) was a major translator (into Latin) of numerous Arabic astrological and geomantic works, including Islamic era horary texts.

Ottoman astrology considered the SN in the ascendant to = an automatic "no", negative, to the horary question; I have taken it as an indicator of the chart with the SN in the ascendant as making the interpretation of that chart unreliable and opening up for the question to asked again at a later time.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-14-2012 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:53 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Well, I understand your point...but, this isn't a 'yes' or 'no' question...so...then what...? Seriously. I'm not chiding.

Eh, look, we're all good. Haivng an early ASC they would have to ask again sometime but, usually they don't because the matter has changed so much they don't ask the same question again.

peace
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Last edited by Anachiel; 04-14-2012 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:46 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

That is why I do not follow the Ottoman astrology teaching about the SN in the ascendant (ie, always meaning a no or otherwise negative influences, answer) SN means chaos, and I have, in the past, seen, with the SN in the ascendant in horary, clearly apparent chart indications giving a no/negative answer, and yet positive results happened! And equally, with the SN on the ascendant, clearly apparent chart indications giving a yes/positive answer, and actually negative results following. Then again, with the ascending SN, the chart indications giving a no/negative answer and the results were also no/negative. This is the signature of chaos, ie, of a chaotic influence, and is why I consider any horary with an ascending SN to be NIL-unreliable; standard horary has too early to reliably delineate and too late to reliably delineate strictures: well, for me at least, the SN on the ascendant = a "too chaotic to delineate" stricture vs judgement, this is my reasoning for saying to those querents with a SN ascendant, re-ask your question again at a later time, when you are motivated to do so.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-14-2012 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:48 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice and uses whole sign house format)

I'll address only the specific question: are we going back to Holland?

-querent's = 1st house = Libra = Venus
-moving (going back to Holland) = 7th house = Aries = Mars

-Mars is posited in cadent 12th house = - testimony
-Venus is posited in the sign containing the SN (Gemini) = - testimony
-Venus applies to a square aspect to Mars = - testimony
-Moon applies to conjunction with Mars = + testimony (for moving to Holland)

-4th house shows current location (in the UK)
a) 4th house = Capricorn = Saturn
b) Saturn is in querents house (1st house) in its exaltation = - testimony (for going to Holland)
c) querents significator Venus, as well as cosignificator Moon, flow toward Saturn = - testimony (ditto)
d) moving residence to Holland significator Mars retrogrades away from Saturn = - testimony (ditto)

-9th house = long distance travel (which would be involved in such a possible relocation)
a) 9th house = Gemini = Mercury significator
b) SN posits the 9th house = - testimony (relative to the long distance moving)
c) querents significator Venus is in the 9th house = + testimony (ditto)
d) 9th house significator Mercury posits the cadent 6th house in its detriment in Pisces = - testimony (ditto)
e) Mercury flows by retrograde away from Venus, and flows away (retro) from Mars, Mercury is also sign-opposite to Mars, and Mercury makes no applying aspect to any of the primary or secondary significators; furthermore, querents co-significator Moon flows away from Mercury, all of which = - testimony (ditto)

HOWEVER, significators Mars, Mercury and also Saturn, are all retorgrade: retrograde can strongly indicate "return", and might indicate "return to native Holland" in this specific question.
Therefore, I am going to allocate 3 points to the "yes" (go to Holland) column in my tabulation of the totality of specific testimonies.

Results:
Positive (means yes answer to the question, yes will go to Holland) = +5 testimonies
Negative (means no answer to question; will not go to Holland) = -9 testimonies
It might be objected that I counted the SN/9th house/Venus connections twice; I don't consider that I did, but lets be extra cautious: this reduces the - testimonies to a total of -8.

Net results (+5 minus 8) = -3 testimonies

Based on this my answer is that the querents will probably not go back, ie move back, to Holland, within the time period suggested by this chart (using the al-Biruni zodiacal time parameter estimation based on the rising sign Libra) which I'll project as over the next 8 months from the date of this question.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:47 PM
Mandy Mandy is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Wow, thank you, both, Anachiel and Dr. Farr. You never cease to wow me! Your comprehensive input has been invaluable to my learning. I will now pass on the answer to my friend, who I'm sure will be very happy (and grateful), and of course keep you posted with the outcomes.

Thank you very much again.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:12 AM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Hi!

I wanted to check-in and inform you of the outcome. They ended up moving back to Holland (which is NE of London) and selling their house here. They moved to Holland in September 2012.

The reason the move ended up being necessary was because the husband got a job in Holland, instead of the UK (though it is for a UK-based company, so he travels here lots). Due to the time of year, the summer, it was important then to make arrangements for new schools in Holland for the children. So, perhaps opportunities in London were abound, but as soon as the husband secured the Holland job, they all made peace with the move and stopped looking.

Thank you kindly for your efforts.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:16 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Thanks for the update: my negative delineation was proven to be incorrect.

Perhaps the 3 significators Mars, Mercury and Saturn, being retrograde (as mentioned in my 4/14/12 post, above) proved to be the dominating influence favoring return to their homeland 5 months following the date of question.

Perhaps also the 3rd house (under Sagittarius and positing the + NN) should have been used as quesited significator instead of the 9th house, since from the UK to Holland COULD well be considered as a relatively short-distance move (rather than the 9th house as indicative of long-distance travel)??
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:46 AM
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Re: MOVE or STAY?

Indeed. Thank you for evaluating.
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