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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Old 03-05-2012, 12:56 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Lady/Lord of the year is the planet ruling the ascendant in this case Taurus and Venus.
Saturn stays in 2nd house but its Sign (Taurus) moves to the Ascendant, therefore Valens would say: 'The horoscope (ascendant) was hands over to Saturn". Therefore Saturn receives the Horoscopes (Ascendant). Because Saturn is naturally staying in Taurus.
I think that your confusion lies in the word 'horoscope', Valens (and many other in that time) called the Ascendant - Horoscope.

I think that the other part of your confusion is because you think that the Ascendant was given to Taurus (and its ruler Venus).
In the case of Taurus being the Ascendant in that particular year, I think Valens would say: "Taurus takes over the horoscope".

I'm not quite sure yet, it is confusing for me too.
I am still not sure if Taurus can take over the horoscope, as Taurus is a sing and only planets can "rule?" I am hoping someone can offer an explanation?

Also, perhaps I missed it, but isn't it important to consider the condition of the planets both handing over and taking over in order to draw conclusions about what will happen in a given year? For example, a malefic planet, in domicile/exaltation and well aspects assuming control of the chart would make for a better year than say a benefic in detriment and/or poorly aspected?

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Old 03-07-2012, 01:48 PM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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I think that your confusion lies in the word 'horoscope', Valens (and many other in that time) called the Ascendant - Horoscope..
fwiw - the word “Horoscopus” in Greek means “Hour marker” - and is how Valens and other astrologers two thousand years ago were accustomed to describing the degree of the Sign marking the hour of the birth of the native - i.e. in today's terms “The Ascendant Degree”

WIKIPEDIA Etymology states:

“The word Latin horoscopus, ultimately from Greek ὡρόσκοπος "nativity, horoscope", literally "observer of the hour [of birth]", from ὥρα "time, hour" and σκόπος "observer, watcher".

In Middle English texts from the 11th century, the word appears in the Latin form, and is anglicized to horoscope in Early Modern English. The noun horoscopy for "casting of horoscopes" has been in use since the 17th century (OED).

In Greek, ὡρόσκοπος in the sense of "ascendant" and ὡροσκοπία "observation of the ascendant" is in use since Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos 33, 75)”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horoscope
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  #28  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:05 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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I am still not sure if Taurus can take over the horoscope, as Taurus is a sing and only planets can "rule?" I am hoping someone can offer an explanation?

Also, perhaps I missed it, but isn't it important to consider the condition of the planets both handing over and taking over in order to draw conclusions about what will happen in a given year? For example, a malefic planet, in domicile/exaltation and well aspects assuming control of the chart would make for a better year than say a benefic in detriment and/or poorly aspected?
Hi

I was off for a while due to lot of work and a little free time for internet. I will come later with practical explanation on your question
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  #29  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
fwiw - the word “Horoscopus” in Greek means “Hour marker” - and is how Valens and other astrologers two thousand years ago were accustomed to describing the degree of the Sign marking the hour of the birth of the native - i.e. in today's terms “The Ascendant Degree”

WIKIPEDIA Etymology states:

“The word Latin horoscopus, ultimately from Greek ὡρόσκοπος "nativity, horoscope", literally "observer of the hour [of birth]", from ὥρα "time, hour" and σκόπος "observer, watcher".

In Middle English texts from the 11th century, the word appears in the Latin form, and is anglicized to horoscope in Early Modern English. The noun horoscopy for "casting of horoscopes" has been in use since the 17th century (OED).

In Greek, ὡρόσκοπος in the sense of "ascendant" and ὡροσκοπία "observation of the ascendant" is in use since Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos 33, 75)”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horoscope
Thank you for the explanation
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  #30  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:38 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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Hi

I was off for a while due to lot of work and a little free time for internet. I will come later with practical explanation on your question
Thanks. There's been quite a lot going on in my little corner of the Universe as well, including quite a bit of extra working.
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  #31  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:50 AM
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About the Issue of 'handing-taking over'

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I am still not sure if Taurus can take over the horoscope, as Taurus is a sing and only planets can "rule?" I am hoping someone can offer an explanation?

Also, perhaps I missed it, but isn't it important to consider the condition of the planets both handing over and taking over in order to draw conclusions about what will happen in a given year? For example, a malefic planet, in domicile/exaltation and well aspects assuming control of the chart would make for a better year than say a benefic in detriment and/or poorly aspected?
I wanted to find a quote by Valens but don't have much time to search through the text.
However, I found a little example of what is actually handing and what is taking, in the article: 'A new traditional technique to predict correctly events of the year" by Clelia Romano. Article that can be found for free on her website
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/newt...prediction.pdf

In this article she gives an example:
Quote:
'...lets admit that Jupiter is located in the natal ASC and the Moon is in the 2nd house.
In the 13th year (as well as in the 25th in the 37th and etc.) Jupiter hands over to the Moon (my accentuation with bold types). To hand over has a meaning of to give room or apply to.'
So, the planet which naturally (in natal) stays in the space (house) is handing over to the planet and sign which took that space now by profection.
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  #32  
Old 03-19-2012, 04:16 AM
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Re: About the Issue of 'handing-taking over'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
I wanted to find a quote by Valens but don't have much time to search through the text.
However, I found a little example of what is actually handing and what is taking, in the article: 'A new traditional technique to predict correctly events of the year" by Clelia Romano. Article that can be found for free on her website
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/newt...prediction.pdf

In this article she gives an example:


So, the planet which naturally (in natal) stays in the space (house) is handing over to the planet and sign which took that space now by profection.
Ah, this makes much more sense than the idea that the sign "took" over. Thank you for remembering, and for answering.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Hmm I'm a little confused. I just checked a really bad year I had a few years ago, and Venus was the lord of the year. I checked a brilliant year, probably the best year of my life, and Venus was the lord. How can she have an opposite effect? The same with Mars. Now if you use Pluto instead that changes things, but Mars for Aries and Scorpio and there's a great year and a terrible year. Are these years significant enough? These are the years that MADE me, the best things happened, and the years that BROKE me, lonely times, times when things failed and I was very afraid of outcomes. I don't get it. I have checked count from 0 and 1 and neither hit the nail.

Also, does anyone know anything about the philosophy behind it? Why does a sign come to the ascendant?
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  #34  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:47 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Could someone who does use profections and finds them useful perhaps do a quick demonstration of profections that really hit the nail on the head? That would be smashing.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:08 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Could someone who does use profections and finds them useful perhaps do a quick demonstration of profections that really hit the nail on the head? That would be smashing.
We really need a like button here.

byjove, I think that profections were not intended to be read as stand alone charts. I haven't quite figured out all of it, but I <think> that the SR chart for that year, as well as the ability of the ruling planet (and I would imagine the condition of the exaltation ruler, and host of other factors) to actually have control over the profected 1st will tell you much about the year. If we take all these factors into consideration, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see profected years with the same natal house ruler (Venus, to use your example) have completely different effects.
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2012, 02:50 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Hmm I'm a little confused. I just checked a really bad year I had a few years ago, and Venus was the lord of the year. I checked a brilliant year, probably the best year of my life, and Venus was the lord. How can she have an opposite effect? The same with Mars. Now if you use Pluto instead that changes things, but Mars for Aries and Scorpio and there's a great year and a terrible year. Are these years significant enough? These are the years that MADE me, the best things happened, and the years that BROKE me, lonely times, times when things failed and I was very afraid of outcomes. I don't get it. I have checked count from 0 and 1 and neither hit the nail.

Also, does anyone know anything about the philosophy behind it? Why does a sign come to the ascendant?
Moog posted a link to this website which has a great in-depth series on the rationale and use of profections - remember Moog?!
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/a...ections-intro/
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
We really need a like button here.

byjove, I think that profections were not intended to be read as stand alone charts.

I haven't quite figured out all of it, but I <think> that the SR chart for that year, as well as the ability of the ruling planet (and I would imagine the condition of the exaltation ruler, and host of other factors) to actually have control over the profected 1st will tell you much about the year.

If we take all these factors into consideration, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see profected years with the same natal house ruler (Venus, to use your example) have completely different effects.
Exactly, there are yearly, monthly, daily, even hourly profections - as well as the Hellenistic solar return (which is very different from the solar return as we understand it today) - all of which are to be read in tandem with the natal chart as well as transits

and it is all there, free in Vettius Valens pdf online as I have frequently posted http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

And I note dr. farr has (on another thread) just provided us with a succinct explanation as to Venus varying effects when lord of the profected year byjove
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Remember to profect all the chart elements, not only the ascendant, and then correlate the profected positions to the natal ones.

Also, just as in SR and progressions and even transits, not every year will be dramatic or a stand-out one; many years will be pretty much just "average", for most people at least, with nothing especially outstanding happening, either way.

Then their are the "big years", dramatic years; these should be seen in whatever predictive method we might be using, such as profection...
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 03-23-2012 at 03:12 AM.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2012, 03:47 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

I had forgotten about Ant's Profection examples. One of the things I like about his blog is that he shows you something with the techniques.

Unfortunately, I think, unless I'm getting something completely wrong, he's made some mistakes with his numbers there.

I'll need to look in the morning, my brain struggles with basic maths even when I'm not tired.
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:29 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Hi Jupiter,

can you tell me which thread the varying effects of Venus has been discussed? I just raced through my recent subscribed threads and the pages within each thread and I don't think I'm subscribed...I'd love to read it though and figure this out.
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:11 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Hmm I'm a little confused. I just checked a really bad year I had a few years ago, and Venus was the lord of the year. I checked a brilliant year, probably the best year of my life, and Venus was the lord. How can she have an opposite effect? The same with Mars. Now if you use Pluto instead that changes things, but Mars for Aries and Scorpio and there's a great year and a terrible year. Are these years significant enough? These are the years that MADE me, the best things happened, and the years that BROKE me, lonely times, times when things failed and I was very afraid of outcomes. I don't get it. I have checked count from 0 and 1 and neither hit the nail.

Also, does anyone know anything about the philosophy behind it? Why does a sign come to the ascendant?
Profections are not meant to read standalone. There are lot of different variations what to do with the profections once you look at them. One of the variation which Zoler thought to his students is to take the Lord of the Year (of the profection ascendant) and find it in the Solar Return chart, where it stands and its state; from there to compare that planet and its state in the solar return to the state of that planet in the natal chart.

So, one of the possibilities is to make this mix of techniques:

1. Find the Profected Ascendant of the year and its Lord
2. See what planets do you have (if you have) in radix (natal) in that sign. wether you have malefics or benefics, or no planets at all. Then look to the Lord of the year and who is witnessing it in the radix (with which planets resides in the same sign or is in aspect). Look also if the Lord of the Ascendant in Profections, is in bad celestial state (i.e. it is in fall or detriment), this gives bad functioning of that Lord (Planet) in the particular year.
3. Look at the Solar Returns and find the state of the Lord of the Profection Ascendant in that chart.
4. Always! consider the radix state of that planet. Nothing can be delivered which is not promised in the natal chart.

This is not Profection example per se, but perefections are included in it and I will demonstrate here how the techniques can be mixed. The chart is of the famous Macedonian singer by name Tose Proeski who died in 2007 in a car accident at age of 26.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...52457143_n.jpg

I hope that the chart would be seen here, if not the birth details are as follow:
25 January 1981
Prilep, Macedonia
11:15 AM

In 2007 Tose was in the Mercury/Mars Fridaria.
Mars - the ruler of the sub-period is the ruler of natal 12th and 7th.
The death was caused by his sleepy driver (ruler of 8th in 6th Stationary).
Marsin radix is a malefic out of sect in 10th with the Light of the Time. The ruler of the Fridaria period and subperiod are in close conjunction.
Because the both rulers of the Fridaria period are in conjunction in the radix, they came together in the Profections of the year (2007), the profected Ascendant was in Leo. Cauda Draconis and the Sun were also at the Ascendant.
The Transiting Jupiter and Moon were in natal 8th. The Sun in natal 6th.

Next, Curtis Mainwaring says:
Quote:
"First we profect the ascendant at the rate of one sign per year. If the year leaves off at the sign of the prenatal lunation or the squares or diameters of these, the times are dangerous."
Valens says:
Quote:
"And especially if, these things being so, Kronos should be found in the 4 declines (cadent houses) of the nativity, and the support concurring, death will follow closely thereupon and bodily weakness and bloodshed and precarious sicknesses or hidden troubles, falls and sudden dangers."
Tose's Saturn (Kronos!) was in his natal 6th (the driver - his slave or the one who works for him?!)

Lot of Crisis

Valens says of this:
Quote:
"And wherever it should fall out, when Kronos (Saturn) comes to be there (by transit?) or in the squares or diameters there will be death or a precarious climateric pertaining to the body or action. And similarly also if the climaterical year should come to be in the ascending or descending place (of the Moon - nodes) or their squares."
Tose's Lot of Crisis falls in Virgo and the Transiting Saturn was then in Virgo.

Lot of Destroyer

In Tose's chart falls exactly at the place of the Sun (5 Aquarius) in direct opposition to the pre-natal lunation at Leo.

According to Critodemus,
Quote:
"When the Moon sees the lot of the destroyer, it causes violent deaths, and worse if the Moon should be found in zoidia that have limbs cut off."
In Tose's chart Moon sees the Lot of Destroyer with a Partile (applying) Trine.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 03-31-2012 at 09:40 AM.
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:37 PM
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Profecting by House

In my last posts here I've tried to give explanation of the hellenistic method of profecting which is done by Signs.
Here I want to mention another Method in which Profections are done by house.
There will not be many differences in respect to the signs ruling the houses (assuming there are no intercepted signs), but the difference can be seen in the planets position in houses (i.e. their Local Determination).
For example, if I have 4th House Libra, and my Mars is in early Scorpio but still 4th house, that same Scorpio will be in the 5th (house) by Hellenistic Methods, but in the medieval method this will be 4th house Mars.
The difference is that when 4th house comes to the Ascendant in the particular year, that Mars would be in the Profected Ascendant for that year.

Profecting by house is very good predictive method. I'm using it in mix with Firdaria and Solar Returns.
Monthly Profections are also very valuable indicator of more specific events occurring that year.

Bonatti recommends to us to use following profections of the Planets and Points for certain indications:

Sun for honors and dignities of the native.
Moon in order to see the state of the body and soul.
MC for profession or skills and the professional services.
Part of Fortune for knowing the Native's wealth.

You can profect every house. Profect 2nd house to see the financies of the native in the following year (or month!).

Profections can be very good mixed with Solar Returns.
In fact, the Lord of the Year of the Profected Sign/House is very prominent factor both in the natal chart and in the Solar Revolutions.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:30 AM
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Monthly Profections by House

Monthly profections are very easy thing.
Once you have choose the year you want to Profect you can cut the year in monthly pieces.
Lets say that I want to know the general state of my 28th burthday.
If I have Cancer Ascendant, the 28th year would come to the 5th house Scorpio and the Lord of the Year would be Mars. If that Mars is natally in 4th than we can say that the year is all about the Home, Family stuff. The native will be into the Home and Family, his Dwellings this year.
Mars rules 10th also so this year will be about the Career also: "Rearranging the Career from Home" is one of the possibilities, or "rearranging the goals and taking over the Destiny in Life".
Mars also rules 7th by Exaltation so this year will be all about partnerships and business associates too.
This is the yearly profection.
Now lets move to the Monthly Profections.
5th house Scorpio is the First Month in the year, that is from the beginning of the birthday up to the following month the same day.
So if I'm born in 23 January, then 5th House Scorpio will be my First Month up till 23 February.
Because the year is all about 5th house matters (and 4th too) primarly, we would seek for event in the following months.
We would seek for event when the Profections by Month would come to the House where the Lord of the Year is. That is in the 12th house (because 4th is 12th from 5th).
Also, important months are:
23 March through 23 April (because it is the Month of the 7th house Capricorn - exaltation of Mars).
23 June to 23 July because it is the house of Aries.
And as I said:
December to January 2013 because it is Mars who isi n the 4th house.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:47 AM
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2.5 Day Profections

This is also a fine tuning technique.
This is a division of the Monthly Profections, each house rules 2.5 days.
12 X 2.5 = 30

Lets take the same above example of the Cancer Rising.
Yearly profections in his 27th birthday in January 23th were in 4th House Libra.
Moon is there and Venus ruler of 4th is in 6th.
Houses to consider are: 4th/6th/9th Pisces/11th/

From 23 June to 23 July is the Pisces 9th House Monthly Profection.
Lets say that event happened in 10th July.
We start calculating.
Lets group them by two houses = 5 days.
9th and 10th house - 5 days
11th and 12th - 5 days
we are now at 03 of July.
1st nad 2nd house - 5days = 8th of July.
10th of July corresponds to the rd house: event relating to the native's ideas and home happened during these days (3rd house and 4th mixed).
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