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  #126  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:17 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Here is another example, Mother Teresa, of someone who was not born into a religious vocation, but chose it. At first glance her 12th house might not seem strong, as it is untenanted. But with Sagittarius on the cusp, as well as Sagittarius rising (in Placidus it's a duplicate sign,) Jupiter is going to be a power house in her chart.

(Yes, I know all about whole signs and equal houses, friends! I happen to think duplicate and intercepted signs have real meaning. To each her own. I also am aware of Mother Teresa's critics, but hey-- anyone here have a vocation to work with leprosy patients in Calcutta?)

Jupiter conjuncts Mother Teresa's MC, in the 9th house of religion (in the sense of theology) and appears to be in the Gauquelin power zone. Then Jupiter is deposited by Mercury, which is very strong in its own sign of Virgo, and Mercury also is a duplicate house ruler, notably of the 6th house of work and service. Jupiter squares Neptune, which constantly challenged (square) her to develop both the traditional religious (Jupiter, 9th house) and more mystical (Neptune in Cancer) side of her nature. Again, I've input some asteroids that deal with wisdom in some fashion, and there are some conjunctions with planets.

So another point to be made, is that we kind of have to do a bicycle tour of the chart to get a good sense of the 12th house and how it operates. Immediate appearances don't tell the full story.
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  #127  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
hi bubuza dulce,

thanks for sharing your touching post. as for the astrological concept of interception, i don't believe in it, but many others do so you will have to get some input from them. aries rising with moon in pisces is clearly 12th house and sign for me.. your story is also very 12th house in nature.

a grand cross is a bit like 12th house symbolically in that the energies of the planets are locked in a pattern that it is difficult to get out of unless there are some release points off some of the squares.. usually there is. remember that the moon has a close association to childhood and is said to rule the very first part of life..

sometimes a trap is a form of freedom when we recognize this is just what the trap offers us.. experiencing pain allows us to develop a greater sense of compassion for others which is exactly how you have described your situation and why you have pursued your particular path in life. most people are unaware of just how trapped they are by life.. far better to recognize this and have an inkling of the possibility of freedom that goes with it then to be trapped and not know it. i think you have found your freedom by the sound of it.
Hi Sandstone,

I think those interceptions are important because my life revolved a lot around those 6th -12th house issues. And speaking about traps, I read that one way of working with an interception would be to look for the duplicate signs - in my case they are Cap and Cancer - and work with their rulers. Well the Moon and Saturn are the intercepted ones... So an intricate trap!

I understand really well that - the trap is a form of freedom. The "prison" is not only something that keeps us separate from the rest of the world but it also protects us from it!
The thing is that I realise the problems my "traps" have kept me away from only after I leave them behind. So I don't enjoy the time spent in those confined situations but rather struggle to get out.

In one of my dreams about getting out of the room I became so tired with trying to get out that I abandoned. And I said - what is the problem if I don't want to get out? What is the difference? If I go "outside" wouldn't I be in other rooms like this one, wouldn't I breathe the same air as here?

What is the difference between "in" and "out"? What defines them, what separates them?
And I realised only my desire of being in one place or another makes one of them "out" and another one "in" but in fact they're the same.

"In" and "Out" don't exist!

I could create prisons everywhere by not wanting to be there and I could destroy them by accepting them. If I have no desire of being anywhere I'm free. I am always in the same place as I have been and I don't know if it's possible to be anywhere but "here".

You sound very optimistic saying that I found freedom. Well, partly, maybe.

The thing is that I still desire to be an amazing courageous hero-type (my secret desire) and every time I confront that image with a very different reality (it's like a Pisces wanting to be a Leo-Aries) I get hurt.
In fact I feel as if that person already exists underneath all these layers of fear so I don't have to create it but set it free.

The freedom as I imagine it would be to wake one day and realise I'm an incredibly courageous person. To feel the courage and calmness flowing through the deepest parts of my being. Then I would smile and anything could happen to me - to live on, not live on, nothing would matter. And I somehow have an idea of how it is to be like this - like a very distant memory.
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  #128  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:36 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Why would you want to attribute all your difficulties to the 12th house?
Hi Carris,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

For example if I had the Moon let's say in Leo in the 5th then things would have been completely different for me! Or maybe in Cap in the 10th - I couldn't have cared less

Of course there would have been other issues but I wouldn't have cared so much for them and that's what I want in the end - not to care so much!

Or to be able to transcend my emotions (I keep trying to do that, meditation and other ways), or maybe have an on/off switch. I'd still live my life as it is but I'd be able to suffer less and help others more!

You shouldn't take my whining too seriously, I enjoy talking about my emotions (Mercury in the 4th in Cancer) and I am relatively stable compared to other people I know. It's just that I have that desire lately (since that Pluto transit over MC which I noticed quincunxes my Sun also) to really make some order in my career and :
a)do it "right" and even have some fun doing it, going with pleasure at work or
b)get the ... out of there!

I don't want to "sacrifice" myself doing this. It's not how it should be, so I'm struggling to find a new way. I don't want to help others by hurting me, I began to understand I should treat myself with compassion, like I would be "someone else". I'm still very new to this feeling and I don't know yet how to use it.
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  #129  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

OK, just one more chart!

For anyone who is unfamiliar with the technique of working with "accidental house cusp rulers" or "lords," an easy way to think about it is: "The house over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands," according to K. Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection. The house ruler is the planet ruling the sign on the house cusp.

This one is of Thomas Merton, who became a Trappist monk, living a life of extreme seclusion in a monastic cell much of the time. He was also a prolific author, notably of his autobiography The Seven Storey Mountain; and someone who spoke out on social justice issues.

This chart illustrates the spiritual nature of the 12th house more clearly. Merton has Jupiter (theology) in Aquarius in the 12th. Jupiter in the 12th also conjuncts Mercury (writing) and the NN of personal growth.

With Aquarius as the sign on the cusp of the 12th house, we see the modern ruler Uranus conjunct both Merton's sun (identity) and 12th house cusp. Aquarius's traditional ruler Saturn closely conjuncts his IC/Pluto (foundations) and they make powerful trines to his 12th house Mercury-Jupiter.

Merton has Venus in Sagittarius in the 9th house of theology and prophecy, conjunct his MC of vocation. Its cusp ruler is Jupiter, which puts us back in the 12th house. Similarly, Merton's Saturn (traditional ruler of Aquarius--the sign on his 12th house cusp) in Gemini is ruled by Mercury. Mercury loops us back to the 12th house yet again.

The 6th house of service looks pretty empty, Yet with Merton's Leo moon in the 5th on the cusp of the 6th, perhaps we see someone who did seek the spotlight on occasion (as public speaker, best-selling author) and someone with a service orientation. The ruler of the 6th, the sun, eventually leads back to the 12th house through Saturn (Capricorn on the sun's house cusp) and thereby back to Mercury in the 12th via Gemini as the sign on Saturn's house cusp.

Saturn (traditional ruler of Aquarius) and Mercury (ruler of Gemini) are in mutual reception.

Again, I know you whole-signers are out there. If you've got an interpretation of Mother Teresa's and Thomas Merton's vocations, by all means, present it!
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"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." --Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

--Philippians 4:8

Last edited by waybread; 03-29-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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  #130  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:45 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Carris View Post
Moon, as the handle of the bucket, is the key to all your problems - think in a spiritual way - that all of us humans have incarnated here to learn lessons and grow spiritually. We are eternal, indestructible souls/spirits - so don't get too emotional and upset by this temporary human life - just look for the lessons that god wants you to learn. It is your duty to help people - let god decide on the outcome of your help - you are not responsible for their suffering.

"As a conclusion, I don't consider this placement in the 12th as a benefit". I wish you would not attribute all the problems your life to the 12th without analysis. You are unnecessarily scaring people who don't have much knowledge of astrology. All your problems are due to the hard aspects. The moon in 12th is your greatest gift and strength - because the greatest gift is the ability and desire to serve others.
I don't consider this placement, MY placement, with all MY aspects as a benefit. I wasn't speaking in general about someone else's Moon in the 12th with other aspects and/or in other sign. I thought that was obvious.

And "so don't get too emotional and upset by this temporary human life - just look for the lessons that god wants you to learn" - I don't have words to respond to that... I really don't...
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  #131  
Old 03-29-2012, 06:24 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by bubuza_dulce View Post

And "so don't get too emotional and upset by this temporary human life - just look for the lessons that god wants you to learn" - I don't have words to respond to that... I really don't...
Maybe God doesn't exist. Maybe he/it/she does. Either way I think we presume too much to think we have any clue whatsoever about God's intentions. Maybe there are lessons, then again maybe life is just unfair and we find a way to balance that within ourselves by saying God wants us to learn something. Maybe God is just another band aide. Then again, maybe not.


I think Douglas Adam's portrayal of God as an old senile man living in a shack all alone with his cat on a planet that is only visited every now and then by a select few government agents is quite accurate. If I recall he had no idea about what was going on at all. He couldn't accept that he 'KNEW' anything at all other than what was right in front of him. The twist to this? I think we are all that old man. We are all God, but maybe we should also adjust our expectations.

I dunno, just my thoughts of late. I used to be ridiculously spiritual. In a weird way, while I don't see spirituality as 'wrong' or 'unhealthy' in a general sense; I do kinda get the feeling that it's only going to do so much for someone if they can't operate in the here and now.

That feeling is strongly attributed to the harsh jerk of Pluto transiting my tight natal Moon/Venus/Neptune stellium in Sagittarius (3rd house - my goodness what a beautiful, dreamy time -that was actually a nightmare, I just couldn't see it), and then progressing across my natal Eros and IC/MC axis (right now, in the 4th). Reality is hitting home like you wouldn't believe. Suddenly Spirituality is almost an anathema for me, and I'm okay with it.

I HAVE to cut myself off and step back. Everything I do, I consciously try to do it with full on intention. I focus on what must be done and don't think about if it's God's will or what I am meant to learn. Not any more anyway.

My spirituality was of great comfort to me and was how I instinctively related to life. Unfortunately, that all encompassing focus left me unable to really operate in an independent and healthy manner in this very real, here and now reality. I became a burden and a victim all too easily. Pluto has made me pay for that big time. And no, I don't see it as a judgement or punishment. Pluto is just waking me up to the reality of life so that I can not only cope but be of real world assistance.

-kinda jaded though
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  #132  
Old 03-29-2012, 06:59 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Dear Munch,

I understand what Carris meant. I have said things of this sort many times in my life and I meant well. I'm sure she did also.

Only it made me feel... ok, I cannot tell you in words but you should have seen my face!

And I can relate to your post in some way. I believed in God for many years and it had been my line of resistance until, desiring to find "the real truth" I abandoned all beliefs (I thought if He exists, I'll find Him and if He doesn't, I'll find the truth) and without realising I became an atheist in a few years...

And then I realised I was lying to myself again - in the first years I saw only the good and then I came to see only the bad, I wanted the truth and I lied to myself all the time. (I have no doubt I do that even as we speak) I explain this as related to Neptune, the only retrograd in my chart, elevated and with some stressful aspects. I desired the truth so much and I got caught up in so many lies that I began to wonder how the people who don't want the truth live? Could their lives be more caught up in lies than mine?

You can think you're spiritual, or atheist, or jaded but in the end ...
It's OK.
(I know it's very interpretable, it's not a statement I could defend with logical arguments,though I know what I mean)

Do whatever works for you at this moment.
I wish you all the best and sorry for getting off topic!
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  #133  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:36 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

No apologies needed. Its simply discussion and a good one at that.
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  #134  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:40 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

bubuza dulce,

thanks for your additional comments. we all have to find an astrological system that works for each of us individually.. i am not in favour of giving greater importance to houses then i am to signs, but this is just me.. i do think the ruler of a sign matters.. perhaps the location of your first house aries ascendant interferes with it's ability to express itself in a powerful self confident manner.. perhaps the ruler of your midheaven has some bearing on why you see the 6/12 axis as having real bearing on your life.. these are considerations i make.. to give it all up to a particular house system, especially one that over-rides the natural relationships going on between signs themselves isn't my approach. i consider aspects between planets as having great bearing on the action of planets too..

mother teresa's chart comments :

i see her life as one of service to others. i think the signs virgo and pisces form a polarity where being of service is a means of greater self realization.. jupiter is quite strong being conjunct the 11th sign midheaven to her ascendant and her ascendant ruler. that she was a missionary in a foreign country who started and headed a benevolent humanitarian type organization - missionaries of charity while being very well known and a huge success in the world community would seem to connect directly with this jupiter position in her chart. venus in the 9th sign is ruler to the midheaven, moon and jupiter..

her natal moon in taurus conjunct the north node is also in the 6th house/sign from the sagitarrius ascendant which further emphasizes her need to be of service in a tangible and pragmatic way.. one can note the transits in 1950 at the start of this organization she spearheaded and see saturn transiting the sign virgo with neptune directly on her midheaven for much of 1950.

as for 12th house ruler - mars or pluto depending on whether you like traditional or modern rulers, pluto is the planetoid closest an angle in this chart, about 3 degrees off the descendant. to me this again shows her involvement with people starving and close to deaths door and of being service to these people in great need.. mars also in virgo is directly square the saturn/neptune midpoint which i mentioned upstream.. this midpoint seems to show up in an important context with those given over to service to others as well. either way one looks at it the sign virgo has a strong association of service, not necessarily in a community minded role, but in mother teresa's case as ruler of the 12th, much more so.

waybread, i am just reading your comment at the bottom of you post now.. you appear to like challenging others! i do too, lol.. i may get to thomas mertons chart later.. thanks..
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  #135  
Old 03-29-2012, 09:07 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
.....
waybread, i am just reading your comment at the bottom of you post now.. you appear to like challenging others! i do too, lol.. i may get to thomas mertons chart later.. thanks..
Well, you know who!
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  #136  
Old 03-30-2012, 02:01 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Atheism also figures in many religious and spiritual belief systems within Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Neopagan movements[21] such as Wicca.[22] Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[23] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but difficult to follow spiritually....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

what do you think OOdle dOOdle?
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  #137  
Old 03-30-2012, 02:02 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by d00dle View Post
i have 4 planets in 12th house (venus, saturn, jupiter, and pluto in Libra). Also, its ruler is venus so that would make the ruler of the 12th in the 12th house. And i am an atheist...i don't believe in that spiritual ******** hehe
Would you care to post a chart?
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  #138  
Old 03-30-2012, 02:40 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

d00dle,
Have you had your Saturn Return yet? I didn't get the "itch" until my return hit. Even then, it took several years after to find what I was "missing".
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  #139  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:06 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by d00dle View Post
yes, Saturn transits 12th house right now maybe because it's in libra, i can dedicate and focus all of my energies on love and relationship matters where i feel lacking right now in life general not spiritual path.
Yes, its true what StillOne says. My shift to a spiritual focus happened around 30. I guess saturn gives you enough rope to hang yourself before he pulls the rope tight around your neck amd leads you to the light.

And as I have written before on this thread, why do people confuse spirituality with religion? The two have absolutely nothing in common! As NeoWarrior has written above - the 12th planets are the talents by which you provide "selfless service" to mankind. These planets give their qualities to shed light on the different aspects spirituality.

For example, venus in libra in 12th may mean that you may help (selfless service) people simply by being charming, tolerant, balanced, sociable, peaceloving, tactful and diplomatic. This is a major service to mankind so troubled by aggression, intolerance and grouchy people on a daily basis. This has nothing to do with god or religion.

Last edited by Carris; 03-30-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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  #140  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:34 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by d00dle View Post
my father passed away when i was 5yrs old...from 15-28 yrs of age, experienced isolation and loneliness (i couldn't make a friend during that period). at one point, i went 2-3 yrs straight w/o talking a sentence with anyone.
Doodle

Mars is your most elevated planet in cancer in 9th. Mars (active, impatient, aggressive, energetic) as ruler of 6th (health issues) in emotional sensitive cancer, receiving hard aspect from pluto (ruler of ascendent) could have caused these problems. This square could also indicate a challenge between 1st and 6th matters Your work/service/health/employment is maybe not aligned with your outer personality.

North Node is conjunct the MC-IC axis - perhaps causing the loss of a parent.

You have saturn-venus conjunct. I have an exact opposition. I know how it is - the harshness, depression and loneliness they bring.

Moon in 8th can cause be a bit tough ("causes deep sensitivity to all 8th house areas - taboos, loss, death, abuse, occult, shared resources and sex. The 8th house moon needs to merge emotionally with others, and they become deeply and intensely attached to people, and it takes a very long time to recover from hurts, rejections and losses. They may have come from a family background where these same intense and passionate feelings was frustrated, and so blackened the emotional atmosphere of their childhood.")

You have a locomotive type chart with Neptune (dreamer, visionary, deciever), ruler of 5th (fun, recreation, romance), leading the planets. Since Neptune and moon (emotions, feeling, intuitive, habits, instinctive responses) ruler of 9th (education, philosophy) are in hard aspect, this could indicate the problematic areas of these two planets. The over-sensitivity of neptune, wanting to retreat and seek seclusion.

This opposition in the 2nd-8th axis means "The 2nd/8th house issues revolve around the theme of personal security and sharing our material and emotional resources with others. Life circumstances will force us to find the balance between developing our own values and learning to trust ourselves, and putting our trust in others without depending solely upon them."

So, your problems really have nothing to do with the 12th house.

Last edited by Carris; 03-30-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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  #141  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:48 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

The fact there is so much controversy about this house must say something about it's nature.

Obviously, it is a disagreeable house of obscure(d) and doubtful meaning in which all are undecided and stash innumerable, demanding personal events into.

Sounds like the 12th to me!
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  #142  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:57 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
The fact there is so much controversy about this house must say something about it's nature.

Obviously, it is a disagreeable house of obscure(d) and doubtful meaning in which all are undecided and stash innumerable, demanding personal events into.

Sounds like the 12th to me!
To the materialistic world, this house would seem disagreeable. This discussion would not make sense to people who don't view themselves as eternal souls/spirits who incarnate several times on earth in order to grow spiritually. As an analogy, its like complaining about a difficult class in college, one that you chose yourself - because you wanted to learn the lessons of that class.

Why is the ability and desire to provide selfless service undesirable or "disagreeable"? It would only seem so only to materialistic people - they would not be able to comprehend such a thing - it would seem obscure, doubtful, a complete mystery to them.

Last edited by Carris; 03-30-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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  #143  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:13 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Carris View Post
To the materialistic world, this house would seem disagreeable. ..
Why is the ability and desire to provide selfless service undesirable or "disagreeable"?
Well, I don't know what world you live in but, most of us are in a material (Read: physical) world.

Also, case in point, I didn't say selfless service was disagreeable. I said the views concerning the 12th were in disagreement. Still are apparently. The 12th also seems to bring out that quality to view others in comparison to lofty positions that mere mortals are supposedly so ignorant of.

Many wars had their basis in such hubris and judgement as to who was "spiritual" and who was "materialistic". That's the undoing I think they speak of about the 12th.
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  #144  
Old 03-30-2012, 01:38 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

I am curious if we can compare serial criminal and international spiritual leaders' charts.

When the two most opposite type of people while both have planets in the 12th and just have a look what those planets do in their life. Obviously!! I prefer the already died one! Soooo then we can truly finalize the meaning of such individual. Anyone have examples to share.
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  #145  
Old 03-30-2012, 01:53 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
The fact there is so much controversy about this house must say something about it's nature.

Obviously, it is a disagreeable house of obscure(d) and doubtful meaning in which all are undecided and stash innumerable, demanding personal events into.

Sounds like the 12th to me!
I was thinking the same. Not all the problems we have in life stem from the 12th. There are other houses, aspects and of course the dignities/debilities.

Nonetheless, the 12th House is still called the house of self-undoing, because of what it denotes. Whether we choose to see it as a "spiritual house" or "house of bad spirit", and our own preferences of this house cannot just be nit-picking what we like, and what we don't like.

About obscurity and doubt, I think you hit the ball-park there. I mean, Trad. (Yes Traditional) Astrology say's the reason the 12th House is so ill is because not only does it not see the AC, but it is also combust, since the Sun overshadows this area when rising. Not too mention the 12th is "falling away" from the AC and therefore Cadent. So naturaly since it's 'hidden' in nature (due to the house being in the most remote and malicious area), so are the things associated with it.

House of Secrets, Hidden Enemies and Isolation from the World anyone?
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Last edited by SniperBomber328; 03-30-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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  #146  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:10 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

hi doodle,

that is cool. better for one to find oneself then to blindly follow someone else.. i share in those beliefs you identify with..

i see others commenting on your chart.. i think you do have a very strong 12th house with the ruler of the 12th conjunction the ruler of the 3rd and 4th if one uses trad rulers.. to me this describes much of what you comment on in one of your posts - your sense of isolation with no friends perhaps brought on or coinciding with the loss of your father in some respects. venus conjunct saturn is the ruler of your 7th which is also a strong relationship themed house. thanks for sharing..


Quote:
Originally Posted by d00dle View Post
I'm definitely not religious..more like a spiritual atheist i guess (atheist sounds a bit extreme). I already grew out of it. what am trying to say is that i don't fall into any sects or spiritual beliefs. I have my own beliefs, ex. love, kindness, and common sense.

Last edited by sandstone; 03-30-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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  #147  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:34 PM
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RaptInReverie RaptInReverie is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

SniperBomber,

No, the twelfth house is called the house of self-undoing and secret enemies because some astrologers are superstitious and credulous. It amazes me that an individual with absolutely no twelfth house placements is presuming to tell those of us who do have them what the twelfth house represents--and that it represents “self-destruction“ at that. We are not nit-picking or being selective here; we are simply exposing the spurious notions about this house for what they are. Horary is another matter, and these claims may very well be valid in that practice, but as far as genethliacal astrology is concerned, the twelfth house should not be viewed in such a manner.

Might I also remind you that this is a public forum? There is nothing revealing or surprising about people disagreeing on astrological matters. Sift through some of the other threads here and see if the twelfth house is the only subject that people find disagreeable and obscure. Furthermore, we cannot declare something to be “hidden”, “ambiguous”, or “destructive” because we haven’t taken the time to properly ascertain what it actually is.

The twelfth house doesn’t see the Asc? Are we using the same charts here? I thought we had already established that a chart is a continuous circuit. The twelfth house is not ostracized from the ascendant, and a planet therein can aspect the ascendant or be the lord of the ascendant. The Lord of the twelfth can aspect the ascendant or any other angle for that matter. And of course many astrologers view such aspects negatively, but it is only because they have predetermined that the twelfth house is evil when it is not.

The Sun does not overshadow a house, nor are houses combust the Sun. I have only seen these definitions used in the context of a planet’s relationship to the Sun.

Here’s a challenge for you: Find a few twelfth house natives who will confirm the notions you have about it, then direct them to this thread. I’d love to speak with them.

I’m not saying that the twelfth house is solely about spirituality. I am still coming to conclusions about its meaning myself, but I refuse to label it as something destructive because I simply don’t understand it in its entirety.
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  #148  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:55 PM
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Carris Carris is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie View Post
SniperBomber,

No, the twelfth house is called the house of self-undoing and secret enemies because some astrologers are superstitious and credulous. It amazes me that an individual with absolutely no twelfth house placements is presuming to tell those of us who do have them what the twelfth house represents--and that it represents “self-destruction“ at that. We are not nit-picking or being selective here; we are simply exposing the spurious notions about this house for what they are. Horary is another matter, and these claims may very well be valid in that practice, but as far as genethliacal astrology is concerned, the twelfth house should not be viewed in such a manner.

Might I also remind you that this is a public forum? There is nothing revealing or surprising about people disagreeing on astrological matters. Sift through some of the other threads here and see if the twelfth house is the only subject that people find disagreeable and obscure. Furthermore, we cannot declare something to be “hidden”, “ambiguous”, or “destructive” because we haven’t taken the time to properly ascertain what it actually is.

The twelfth house doesn’t see the Asc? Are we using the same charts here? I thought we had already established that a chart is a continuous circuit. The twelfth house is not ostracized from the ascendant, and a planet therein can aspect the ascendant or be the lord of the ascendant. The Lord of the twelfth can aspect the ascendant or any other angle for that matter. And of course many astrologers view such aspects negatively, but it is only because they have predetermined that the twelfth house is evil when it is not.

The Sun does not overshadow a house, nor are houses combust the Sun. I have only seen these definitions used in the context of a planet’s relationship to the Sun.

Here’s a challenge for you: Find a few twelfth house natives who will confirm the notions you have about it, then direct them to this thread. I’d love to speak with them.

I’m not saying that the twelfth house is solely about spirituality. I am still coming to conclusions about its meaning myself, but I refuse to label it as something destructive because I simply don’t understand it in its entirety.
What happened to the "thanks" button?

RaptInReverie

I can't thank you enough - I couldn't have said it better! I was getting so tired. I guess I will never understand the mentality of people who like to falsely pronounce dark negative fates upon others ("you will end up in prison or an institution, incarcerated forever. You will never do well.") - thus getting them scared and upset for no reason. It must be some sickness in them, some issues with lack of power.

Last edited by Carris; 03-30-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  #149  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:05 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Carris, religion and spirituality do have much in common. However, they also have differences. For many people, their religion is a pathway to their spirituality. Take the examples of Mother Teresa and Thomas Merton, whose charts I posted above. For them, Catholicism was a pathway to spirituality. For me personally, I couldn't get past the chequered history of the church and its ecclesiastical heirarchy. People have different pathways in life. Also, we might wish to separate out mysticism.

Some old-fashioned dictionary definitions: Spirituality: "The state or quality of being spiritual" [This has several definitions, but I think we mean pertaining to "the soul", "sacred", "holy," "distinguished from secular."]

Obviously religions deal with such topics. Religion is divided into different sub-topics, so we sort of have to define which branch we are talking about: theology, an institution's organizational structure, eschatology (afterlife), spirituality, and so on.

Mysticism has more to do with humans' ability to directly apprehend the divine without the use of reason, ordinary sensory experience, or intermediaries such as a church heirarchy.

The service question is interesting, given the 12th-6th house axis of astrology. I sometimes feel slightly annoyed at oh-so-spiritual people who actually aren't very nice to others in their interactions; or who expect that they can just commune with the divine while somebody else looks after the bills and takes out the trash. Apparently whatever benefits such people derive from their spirituality are more internal, because they don't manifest very well in their inter-personal behaviour.

Holier-than-thou types usually have the same issues in their lives as the rest of us. I just see most of them as a bit less honest about it. I do know a few truly spiritual women who absolutely live their religious creeds (interestingly, some of them are Mormons) and you can see it in how they interact with other people.

Service is one way that the truly spiritual person can manifest divine love.
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  #150  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:15 PM
powerion powerion is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

funny I have all the bad houses then lol. 12th house gemini with jupiter and chiron both retro there. but both are in cancer..lol, my sun is singletone 8th house aquarius, n my other 6 planets are in the 6th house capricorn. my moon is also singletone in the 10th.

the main problem with life is knowing what to do ..haha right? cause I remember a man saying what more could a man need, a table bowl of fruit n a violin, he also wrote to the president how important it was to make the atom bomb, but he was albert einstein why listen to him. Some of the worst things can come from the greatest of thinkers, and people who clearly have hearts. I dont want to become a destroyer of any world, any life, The main thing that gets me is how we take advantage of our eyesight and mind. "it takes a genius to make something small and simple", our spaceships have 6million parts, our eyes have 6 billion parts, we see and feel and learn. because we could have no knowledge and see a person jump in water and drown, then hey we know something dont we? How crazy is it that the eye and the mind can work in such a way? How does your heart not race knowing this? your world you see is because of light, light hits the eye and reflects in? I read some quote that says therefor, you are always filled with light. Be thankfull that you ever even for a second understood what life or love is and maybe you can be free from your mind and free your heart.

btw I think its funny with all the media telling us to reclaim our selves, be more than god n stuff, like chronics, wrath of the titans the list goes on and on just turn on the tv and its every last show or movie. I give you a warning doing nothing could be more safe than doing something, you dont know what you're capable of, what if you're a star and form a black hole consuming everything which has ALWAYS been around you from the start. btw anyone believe blackholes could all be connected like a giant mind. say the universe is the mind, and black holes are the nerves where the insanly fast moving information gets moved naw what I mean?
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