Inviting thoughts on Pluto

[Rebel Uranian]

I understand that. I don't understand the thing about Neptune and Uranus and if this has anything to do with Ceres.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by dhundhun

In terms of environment, Ceres is like pleasing and nurturing environment, Pluto is like killer nuclear radiation.

I think Pluto has a lot more going for it than that. Ceres can also reflect difficult experiences, for example its association with eating disorders.

EDIT: Sorry Waybread - I just saw that you already addressed this point in your post.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by MaeMae

think of the catepillar that was doing juuuuust fiiiiiiine in life, until he learned he would be no more. He surrendered to the enevitable and thereby redeemed himself by becoming a beautiful butterfly.

I see this as a Plutonian dynamic. This might have been what you meant but I read your post as a suggestion that its a kind of Neptunian redemption. One set of genes switch off and another take over, this process having evolved because it enhances the viability of the species. But maybe this process illustrates that there is a sequential relationship between the planets. The unconscious urge to become more than a caterpillar causes it to stop eating and make a cocoon in order for the mutation to take place (Uranus). It must then let go of its caterpillar ego and regress back to its unconscious egg state (Neptune), Then the butterfly is born of the same organic matter that used to exist as the caterpillar, with a completely new consciousness that involves flying and breeding rather than crawling and eating.

[MaeMae]

metamorphosis/transformation from one thing to an other. a new life created only by the death of the old one. definitely pluto. that's the redemption i i was speaking about.
a different "value" than my example of the dead-ended neptunian salmon.

.

[miquar]

That's an interesting take on the Salmon. They have to work incredibly hard to return to their place of birth to mate, swimming against strong currents and leaping up waterfalls and weirs. I see this as being driven by the species' survival instincts. Most of the individual salmon would live longer if they just stayed in the sea and didn't mate, but the species would die out. They feel driven to fulfil this destiny regardless of the danger to themselves. I see this as very Plutonian. Neptune doesn't swim against the current - it just flows with it. Pluto defies all else in the name of destiny. It probably pretty much amounts to suicide to embark on that journey upstream, but it is the suicide of the caterpillar (or the male praying mantis or male spider killed after mating) which arises from the urge of the species to be reborn - not a suicide which seeks oblivion. That's how I see it anyway.

[MaeMae]

Originally Posted by miquar

That's an interesting take on the Salmon. They have to work incredibly hard to return to their place of birth to mate, swimming against strong currents and leaping up waterfalls and weirs. I see this as being driven by the species' survival instincts. Most of the individual salmon would live longer if they just stayed in the sea and didn't mate, but the species would die out. They feel driven to fulfil this destiny regardless of the danger to themselves. I see this as very Plutonian. Neptune doesn't swim against the current - it just flows with it. Pluto defies all else in the name of destiny. It probably pretty much amounts to suicide to embark on that journey upstream, but it is the suicide of the caterpillar (or the male praying mantis or male spider killed after mating) which arises from the urge of the species to be reborn - not a suicide which seeks oblivion. That's how I see it anyway.

maybe saturnian salmon? they have the gumption and drive to "get 'er done". Doing the work of neptune's sad lot in life. the little engine that could...

for me ~ neptune's futility "in this life" ~ speaks to the behavior of salmon ~ born of sea ~ compelled to search for "the other world" ~ only to find an end, point of no return.

[miquar]

Yes I see what you mean. I guess we all project slightly different things onto natural phenomena.

For the ultimate story of going to extreme lengths to breed, March Of The Penguins is an amazing film.

[MaeMae]

Originally Posted by miquar

Yes I see what you mean. I guess we all project slightly different things onto natural phenomena.

For the ultimate story of going to extreme lengths to breed, March Of The Penguins is an amazing film.

i've heard about that movie from many, but truth is, i'm terrified of penguins. i can't even look at them without getting chills and adrenaline rushes.

[sandstone]

i would like to take a quote and magnify it greatly as i think it has great bearing on the conversation on pluto and astrology in general..

miquar quote "I guess we all project (slightly) different things onto natural phenomena."

re-written my way - we all project different things onto phenomena..

to me this captures the problem with descriptions on how planets function.. subjectivity reigns supreme..

[MaeMae]

of course it does, sandstone!
yay for that!
i'm a subjective poster, because it is my experience/filter.
maybe your way of saying, "i don't agree."
but might i plead? pluto never asks if we see things the same way. pluto demands allegiance to the bond created long before we entered this world.
(my ONE and ONLY reference to past life karma ~ because ONLY pluto knows that life never ends. ~
saturn deals with endings - cinching up and stowing for long run
~ neptune beliefs whatever is pretty or seductive.
~uranus could give a flying f**k about all it all.
pluto has an investment in our life that we don't dare try question ~ we are moving in a rumbled/jumbled line, distracted by neptune and uranus' inability in chaos beyond destruction. no thoughts of why and how.
they are the dangerous loaded gun thugs of the horrorscope.
pluto, like saturn ~ steady as she goes.
time is ours.
of course ~ their common interest to preserve ~ the past / the ability to rebirth ~
life goes on forever.
i can see why you were confused by what i get at indirectly through metaphor.

[sandstone]

hi maemae,

it is definitely not my way of saying 'i don't agree'.. i feel the very same way on many of the thoughts and insights i have on astrology.. this is why i always come back to astrology being more like an art.. we all process it in our own way.. i am beyond thinking there is only one approach to astrology, or that one way is better and etc. etc... the further you go, the less you know.. that's a saying from lao tze and i like to remind myself of this regularly.. i like your ideas - so take that!

i wanted to highlight the idea in my previous post.. i think it's useful to question the basis for much in the astro dialogue.. for me nothing is off bounds or above a challenge on what i or others bring to astro theory, technique and etc. etc.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by MaeMae

i've heard about that movie from many, but truth is, i'm terrified of penguins. i can't even look at them without getting chills and adrenaline rushes.

Pengaphobic! I wonder what they symbolise for you? Its not the kind of phobia you can pick up from you parents like fear of spiders. I guess penguins are a bit zombie like in their movement. Anyway, I don't want to give you nightmares!

[miquar]

Hi sandstone. Yes that's how it has to be I guess. But my fantasy is that there is an objective truth at the core of each archetype that we can get closer and closer to, especially if we approach it on different levels, eg, conceptualising, imagery, gut-feelings, etc. And especially too the extent that we can see through our familial and cultural conditioning.

[MaeMae]

Originally Posted by miquar

Pengaphobic! I wonder what they symbolise for you? Its not the kind of phobia you can pick up from you parents like fear of spiders. I guess penguins are a bit zombie like in their movement. Anyway, I don't want to give you nightmares!

yes...make light of it now ~ but rue the day they enter your deams and get barely airborne, flapping sharp cold wings against you as you are surrounded by them as you slip running in the ice knowing you won't outlast them.
pluto is penguins is pluto is penguins.
supernatural abilities and a cold, heartless eye.
the sooner you give in, the better.
unlike saturn, in that pluto doesn't entertain grudge matches. he somps them. obliterates them. makes them no longer....

[sandstone]

hi miquar,

it is my fantasy too, but i don't want to lose sight of reality either which is where i find myself thinking of the subjectivity factor so very often..