Hyleg and Alcocoden

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Reminder to all: Omnisphericus commenced this thread with a traditional analysis of Whitney Houston's AA rated chart and IMO has delivered convincing results!

I've used the summary of all H & A techniques and it seems out that it works that way. Maybe we should stick to that summary instead of trying all methods one by one (a time consuming thing) which leads to frustration and unconvinced results.
I'm eager to try Ptolomy's method though but it is too complicated, it requires dealing with numbers, mathematics of directions and knowledge of which particular directions to use. Ptolomy did not use Alcocoden, but was directing the Hyleg toward the 'killing' places (Dc-Ic-Ac).
I suggest to leave all the individual methods and to return to the 'all authors summary' method and Alcabitius house system which seems out that worked well in the Whitney's chart.

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by tsmall

umkay, we want AA rated charts, and even those might have questions?

Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com

19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56

Anyone up for this?

janis joplin alcabitius.jpg

Here's the chart of JJ. I used the birth details given in astrodatabank.

In my next post I will give the summary of finding the Hyleg and Alcocoden as given in the angelicus merlin group.

[Omnisphericus]

Here's the summary given by the author on angelicus merlin group:

When dealing with the luminaries; sect appears to be of prime importance.

In Day charts, we’re looking for the:

• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:

• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign

In either a day or night chart, the 1st, 10th and 11th appear to be acceptable for either
the Sun or Moon although Rob Hand points out that if the Moon is in the 5º before the
Asc she is in a masculine quarter and should therefore be in a feminine sign and if the
Sun is in the 25º following the Asc he is in a feminine quarter and should therefore be in
a masculine sign. The same logic would apply to the 5º before the 10th, if the Sun is
found there, he should be in a masculine sign as technically he’s in a feminine quarter.

Summary on potential Hylegs

Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB.

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

[Omnisphericus]

Lilly used 5 degrees of orb for the planet near the house cusp to be in that following house. I suggest to stick to this rule because, I think, most of the authors are using it.

JJ's chart is a day chart.
Sun in 12th house - eliminated.
Moon below the horizon in the 5th house is potential hyleg.
Lets try.

Moon is at 8Cancer.
Now we look for the almuten.
(Btw I suggest to use dorotheus triplicities and egyptian terms. Why? Because Robert Zoller is using them, this is the best explanation I can give)

Domicile ruler Moon = 5 points
Exaltation Jupiter = 4 points
Triplicity Venus = 3 points
Term Venus = 2 points
Face Venus = 1 point (I must point out that some authors disregard 'Face' to be dignity, but we will use it only as an additional points giver. If the planet ruler only the Face we would not take it as a potential alcocoden, it is really weak dignity, except if it makes a partile aspect and have some other accidental dignity as being on MC for example).

So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.

Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)

Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.

Look that 12th house ruler exactly on IC.

Lets look at the Lots.
When we look to the lots its better to use WSH.
She has Lot of Fortune at 5Leo, Lot of Spirit at 15Virgo and Lot of Basis at 5Aries.
If Lot of Fortune (the Ascendant of the Moon) is the First House (Leo) than 8th house would be Pisces (ruler Jupiter near the Hyleg) in the house of Pleasures (5th) and in watery sign (The official cause of death was an overdose of heroin, possibly combined with the effects of alcohol).
Jupiter, the ruler of the 8th sign (Pisces) from Fortuna (Leo) is in 12th sign with the ruler of the 12th sign Moon, bith Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart.
The Lot of Basis is in the 8th sign from the Lot of Spirit (in Virgo).

In the natal chart.
Look how that Saturn on IC is making partile sextile to Lot of Fortuna and Lot of Basis.
Sun, the ruler of the Fortune in 12th.

It seems out that all these pointers has diminished the years of the Jupiter (45.5). If she did not use drugs and alcohol and lived unhealthy life, maybe she would lived more than 45 years.
Here is I think our free will coming to surface. I believe we are free to direct the planetary pointers in our birth chart to more positive way of expression or a negative expression. I think that we bear responsibility for our inner growth and development of our spirit/soul. Destiny gives us the Hyleg and Alcocoden, gives us a material with which we can work, but it is up to the free will what we actually do with that material.
My conclusion here is that the Alcocoden is Jupiter and he would give her his middle years if she lived more healthy life, but she didn't! So we can not blame the chart or the Alcocoden for diminishing the years of life.

But of course, we can try some other possibility for Hyleg and Alcocoden in her chart.

[Omnisphericus]

I think Saturn on IC in partile aspect to the fortune and basis is already a sign for worry.
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).

[Jupiter1st]

So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.

Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)

Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.

Omnisphericus, Jupiter is Retrograde in Joplin's chart. If alcocoden is Retrograde, years will be subtracted. I remember having read that 1/4th of alcocoden years are subtracted if it is retrograde. Yet, it might be 1/3rd as well but in my own examination with charts I subtract 1/4th and it seems consistent. In Joplin's case 1/4th of 45.5 is 11.37 (45.5-11.37) When subtracted it makes 34.13 If we subtract 1/3rd then it makes 30.16 it is close but still more than her real life span.

[sandstone]

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

I wouldn't go that far. Even Lilly was not utterly satisfied with the technique of Hyleg, Alcocoden and Anareta. He said:
'I am not sufficiently satisfied
either of the Hyleg or Anareta, so neither of the Alcochodon'.

Even in the examples calculated today by the leading masters of traditional astrology, the years given by the Alcocoden does not match precisely.
For example Bernadette Brady (even though she is not a TA per se, she knows the techniques) in her article 'Hyleg and Alcocoden' has calculated the years of life of Charlee Chaplin, and she was going through the technique precisely how the old masters were presented it in their writings.
It seems out that according to the Alcocoden he should live 82,5 years; but he lived 88 years.
As once Robert Zoller said: "I don't know, only God knows".
Or Lilly: "I thank to the Almighty God, for prolonging the years of my life".

There is something more involved here, we may call it God.

omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by sandstone

omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james

Be free to share any quote, but it would be nice to inform me in order to follow the thread in which you are quoting.

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by Jupiter1st

Omnisphericus, Jupiter is Retrograde in Joplin's chart. If alcocoden is Retrograde, years will be subtracted. I remember having read that 1/4th of alcocoden years are subtracted if it is retrograde. Yet, it might be 1/3rd as well but in my own examination with charts I subtract 1/4th and it seems consistent. In Joplin's case 1/4th of 45.5 is 11.37 (45.5-11.37) When subtracted it makes 34.13 If we subtract 1/3rd then it makes 30.16 it is close but still more than her real life span.

Hmm yes, I think I also read somewhere that if R subtract 1/3 of its years but I'm not quite sure. But in this case I guess you've nailed it.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by sandstone

omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james

Omnisphericus, the thread sandstone refers to is this onehttp://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...408#post363408

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

I wouldn't go that far. Even Lilly was not utterly sutisfied with the technique of Hyleg, Alcocoden and Anareta. He said:
'I am not sufficiently satisfied
either of the Hyleg or Anareta, so neither of the Alcochodon'.

Even in the examples calculated today by the leading masters of traditional astrology, the years given by the Alcocoden does not match precisely.
For example Bernadette Brady (even though she is not a TA per se, she knows the techniques) in her article 'Hyleg and Alcocoden' has calculated the years of life of Charlee Chaplin, and she was going through the technique precisely how the old masters were presented it in their writings.
It seems out that according to the Alcocoden he should live 82,5 years; but he lived 88 years.
As once Robert Zoller said: "I don't know, only God knows".
Or Lilly: "I thank to the Almighty God, for prolonging the years of my life".

There is something more involved here, we may call it God.

But, to be reasonable, is it so surprising that Bernadette Brady was unable to calculate the Hyleg/alcocoden of Charlie Chaplin's chart to give the correct length of his actual life?

CHARLIE CHAPLIN'S TIME OF BIRTH IS SO COMPLETELY UNKNOWN THAT NEITHER THE FBI NOR M15 FOUND ANY EVIDENCE OF EVEN THE DAY OR YEAR - LET ALONE THE TIME! - as I posted earlier:

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!

Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently:

"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."

"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5

Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS

[DreamingTheSeas]

As others already mentioned, its hard to know the exact birth time of famous people. Even for recently born people like Houston (unless she mentioned somewhere) more for people like Janis Joplin and even more Chaplin.
Maybe it would be better to have some examples from people WE know in personally. Like a parent who is dead and we have seen his birth certificate.

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas

As others already mentioned, its hard to know the exact birth time of famous people. Even for recently born people like Houston (unless she mentioned somewhere) more for people like Janis Joplin and even more Chaplin.
Maybe it would be better to have some examples from people WE know in personally. Like a parent who is dead and we have seen his birth certificate.

This is good, but this investigation is limited, and as I know the AA ratings on astrodata bank are taken from the birth certificate of the celebrities.

AA/Accurate accurate/ Data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate), and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy.

So, I think we should go only with the AA ratings.
The A ratings are by quoted (by friend or family) time which can be very non accurate.
In the case of JJ it is an AA rating.

[JerryRR]

Quote:
"I do not agree that the sun must be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years."

Jeanne Louise Calment.
Born 21 February,1875,07:00am,Arles,France.(AA data)
Died 4 August 1997 age 122.
Astodienst.

J.R.

[Omnisphericus]

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.ar...html#_ftnref24

This is great article on Hyleg and Alcochoden by italian astrologer Giuseppe Bezza on the site Cielo e Terra.
Here he speaks about the origin of the words and the earlier correspondence with the philosophical authors from the period. It is great article and certainly worth reading.

[Omnisphericus]

While this might seem like a relatively minor point, its significance is that one study of the efficacy of the various classical definitions of the Hyleg was done, using the data from the shootings in the classroom in Dunblane, Scotland, in which about half the students were killed, and half were not. Penny Shelton compared methods from Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Bonatti, Lilly, Gadbury and Coley, and found the Bonatti system to be the most satisfactory in predicting which of the children lived, and which died.viii However, Shelton did not incorporate the necessity for the Sun or the Moon to aspect a dispositor to be counted as Hyleg. So perhaps this particular restriction needs reexamination.

This is an excerpt from another article on Hyleg by J.Lee Lehman.

Here's the article:
http://www.leelehman.com/joomla15/in...ical&Itemid=37

[Omnisphericus]

Lehman on Bonatti's system on finding the Hyleg and the rule of 'must have an aspect':

While this might look like a very rigorous system, there is actually one point of ambiguity. In Bonatti' s original definition, it was not stated that the Sun or Moon, in order to be Hyleg, also had to aspect one of its dispositors. The necessity for an aspect between any potential Hyleg and one of its dispositors was made in Omar of Tiberius' commentary,vi but it was initially unclear whether this was simply a variation introduced by Omar, or whether it reflected Bonatti' s actual usage. With the availability of more classical sources, we can now be reasonably sure that Bonatti simply gave a slightly abbreviated version of his actual working definition.vii

It seems out that we didn't get results from using Bonatti's system because we introduced the rule of 'must have an aspect' between the Hyleg and the Almuten.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

I think Saturn on IC in partile aspect to the fortune and basis is already a sign for worry.
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).

Did anyone else notice that in Janis' chart she has SNode right on the ASC?

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

Hmm yes, I think I also read somewhere that if R subtract 1/3 of its years but I'm not quite sure. But in this case I guess you've nailed it.

Does anyone have a source for this idea?

[dr. farr]

Gerard of Cremona (and H.C. Agrippa) repeated an ancient doctrine regarding the SN: ie, if the Dragon's Tail is on the ascendant, the life is often shortened thereby.

(My own late wife, had the SN near the ascending degree: she passed away at 57 years of age)

[Omnisphericus]

South Node (Cauda Draconis or Dragon's Tail) was regarded as Malefic by the ancients/medievals. And for many planets (like the Moon for example) it is said that they 'kill' when on the Ascendant in primary directions for example.
Gauricius predicted the death of King Henry II by directing Mars on the Ascendant. Bonatti says: "Moon kills when on the Ascendant".
Ascendant is the physical body which bears the Life, so every malefic on the Ascendant is a potential trouble. (Any malefic on the 'secondary ascendant' that is, Lot of Fortuna, is again trouble).

[Omnisphericus]

Penny Shelton made an experiment where she tried all the methods by all the authors and she said that Bonatti's system gave the best results but without the 'must have an aspect' rule because as J. Lee Lehman says, that rule was probably added by later interpretator of the works of Bonatti (Omar of Tiberius).

Here's the Summary of Bonatti's system from J. Lee Lehman:

By contrast, here is the system of calculation according to Bonatti.v At Bonatti' s time, we also need to specify what ‘placement in a house' meant. Bonatti did not use 30º houses. In his system, if a body was on the cadent side of an angle, it was still angular if it was within 7º of the cusp. If was on the angular side of a succedent house, it was still succedent if it was within 5º of the cusp. And if a planet was on the succedent side of a cadent house, it was still cadent if it was within 3º of the cusp. In this table, the Hyleg is found once a statement is true. In other words, once you come to a true statement, stop looking: you' ve found your Hyleg.

So, we are gonna use Alcabitius house system.

Here's a table of Bonatti's summary (again given by J.Lee Lehman):
Bonatti Hyleg.png
(BTW does someone knows how to wide this picture throughout the post?
How to be seen without needing to click the picture and enter in?)

Would you recommend a chart on which we can re-try this method, but now without the 'must have an aspect' rule?

[Omnisphericus]

I've opened an interesting discussion here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...074#post367074

where I deal with the arabic/greek lots. The discussion is practical and I started it again with Whitney Houston's chart. We can combine these two techniques (H & A, and, Lots) in order to deepen our astrology knowledge and the predictive techniques of the ancients.
I welcome you there!

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

Penny Shelton made an experiment where she tried all the methods by all the authors and she said that Bonatti's system gave the best results but without the 'must have an aspect' rule because as J. Lee Lehman says, that rule was probably added by later interpretator of the works of Bonatti (Omar of Tiberius).

Here's the Summary of Bonatti's system from J. Lee Lehman:



So, we are gonna use Alcabitius house system.

Here's a table of Bonatti's summary (again given by J.Lee Lehman):
Attachment 27098
(BTW does someone knows how to wide this picture throughout the post?
How to be seen without needing to click the picture and enter in?)

Would you recommend a chart on which we can re-try this method, but now without the 'must have an aspect' rule?

This is a great table! I still have a question about how we know how many years each planet gives and when. I mean how to know which years we get to take. Is that a judgement call, or is there instruction somewhere that can help determine this?

[Omnisphericus]

Originally Posted by tsmall

This is a great table! I still have a question about how we know how many years each planet gives and when. I mean how to know which years we get to take. Is that a judgement call, or is there instruction somewhere that can help determine this?

If Alcocoden is angular you give the major years.
If it is succedent you give middle years.
If cadent you give minor years.
If it is in its own sign or exaltation (or triplicity) and angular this is great! But if it is in cadent you give the middle years (because of the dignity).

And so on.. you are combining alongside with your own judgment and astrological experience.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Omnisphericus

If Alcocoden is angular you give the major years.
If it is succedent you give middle years.
If cadent you give minor years.
If it is in its own sign or exaltation (or triplicity) and angular this is great! But if it is in cadent you give the middle years (because of the dignity).

And so on.. you are combining alongside with your own judgment and astrological experience.

Thank you!

[Omnisphericus]

Elvis Presley Alcabitius.jpg

Night chart.
We first look for the Moon.
Moon is not in angular or succedent house, it is in cadent (3rd).
Elvis is born on a waxing moon.

We go now to the 4th rule of the chart given by J. Lee Lehman (see above):

4. Born on a waxing moon: examine the dispositors of the Ascendant. If any of its dispositors also aspects the Ascendant, the Hyleg is the Ascendant, otherwise check the Fortuna for an aspecting dispositor.

Elvis's Ascendant is at 12Sagittarius.
Dispositors:
Jupiter (domicile and triplicity ruler) in 18 Scorpio (not aspecting)
Venus (term ruler) in 29 Capricorn, (not in aspect).

Ascendant can not be Hyleg.

We go now to the Fortuna.

It is in 27Libra.
Venus (domicile and term ruler) at 29 Capricorn is making square to the Fortuna.
Saturn the exaltation ruler is also making Trine to the Fortuna.
But Venus has more points and is in succedent house (2nd) so we will pick her as Alcocoden to the Hyleg Fortuna.

Venus succedent would give her Middle Years (45)

He died at age of 42.