Faithless?

[Munch]

I've always lived my life based on the fact that I believed there was something out there and that whatever it was, was guiding me.

Last year (and maybe this is only a bad hangover from my Saturn Return) I stepped out in faith in every area of my life and thought all of the happy and positive thoughts. Affirmations, meditations, you name it. I was there and I was ready to put my faith in action......woops.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes the bottom just kinda drops out. Sometimes life just plain and simple blows. But this was different because I didn't feel any acute pain about all of the losses I accrued, instead it was because I felt disillusioned.

I've lived on the streets, having nothing doesn't bother me. Being lead by what you to believe is spirit down into the gutter is another. Suddenly, spirit seems like a dream, or something in a movie. In other words, not real. The illusion of it being real seemed to have finally slipped away.

I am not looking for a lesson. I see plenty. What I am looking for is the confirmation that my limbo status with Spirit is necessary or at least healthy. I am all but atheist at the moment.

This is new territory for me. I am not sure to where to reset my moral compass or even if I should, because if I don't have to live by the laws of Spirit (Love, kindness, compassion.....things that were also sorely missing for me last year), then aren't laws of any sort just arbitrary? Am I limiting myself unnecessarily? Why can't I just start selling narcotics to young children and make a much 'healthier' income? YES, I am being extreme, but I am merely making a point. If there is no spirit, there is no basis for morality, or at least no measure for it.

I'm rambling on so I'll just reiterate...is this a normal part of spiritual growth? Does this happen to other people? Is it time to finally let go of the security blanket? I mean, I am 30.....

[dr. farr]

Yes it is "normal": historically (in the spiritual world) it is known as "the Dark Night of the Soul", and Saturn can be a catalyst to it (often it is) Remember that Saturn can symbolize pure, crass materiality (more than any other planet), and "belief in darkness" (which = belief in "nothing"), and can symbolize the very antithesis of Spirt; yet Saturn is also a golden-hued planet, a friend and guide of the highest order, and the gateway to the higher "worlds" (behind the material plane) symbolized (in our times) by the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and by the Starry Lords beyond them. Saturn is, indeed, the "Dweller on the Thresh-hold", so well known in (certain) Western esoteric traditions.

Of course many (even here on AW) will say "good-you smartened up, finally! There is nothing, no Spirit, just mechanistic Fate, and no ultimate meaning to anything!" These (to me) are the advocates of what I call the "Norman Bates School of Life Philosophy*", an outlook which I definitely do not share.

Anyway, that's what I think and I do believe thaty you are going through a "Dark Night of the Soul" as part of your own spiritual journey. Hang Tough!


(*Norman Bates (played by Anthony Perkins) is the central character in Alfred Hitchock's classic 1960 movie, "Psycho"; Norman expounds his outlook on the nature of life in the parlor scene, during his discussion with his future murder victim, played by Janet Leigh)

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by Munch

I'm rambling on so I'll just reiterate...is this a normal part of spiritual growth? Does this happen to other people? Is it time to finally let go of the security blanket? I mean, I am 30.....

dr. farr is right in identifying a Dark Night Of The Soul. I have been through so many of these Dark Nights that I have lost count of them.............. but I have a Saturn-ruled chart, so I suspect that a part of my own personal journey has been to `go there' often in order to see what I could find.

Even my best friend, who is my age, is deeply spiritual, and has more faith in her thumbnail than I have in my whole being, has occasionally contacted me saying, "I don't believe there is such a thing as Spirit. I think we've all been conned."

It's normal, and especially normal for that post-Saturn Return flat spot, where nothing seems the same as it was. The absence of everything - including faith - is a fine place to begin your creative reconstruction.

[MaeMae]

Munch -

My experience with my first Saturn return was somber, as I think it can be for many folks. It is a time when one usually realizes the effects, consequences, call it what you will, of putting all our eggs in one basket. When it initially becomes clear that certain aspects of "reality" in our life are no longer serving a purpose, there is a letting go, not so much neptunian letting go, but a Saturnian letting go - a feeling of loss and emptiness that can seem irreplaceable. That feeling can show up anywhere. But it's a good thing in the long run, as, I believe, Saturn is purposeful in that way, because it gives us the opportunity to refine and adjust the attitudes and behaviors that help us meet the world more soundly as grown ups.

From what you write, it sounds to me like you may be having some Neptunian questioning as well, the search for what is "real" (saturn return) being confused or hazed by neptune which seeks the ethereal/non-material. This could certainly result in the "dark night of the soul," as mentioned, because during a Saturn return, we're required to make choices and decisions about how we'll continue to move through life.

I don't personally see saturn as a faithless influence. If anything, he asks us to put our faith in his lessons, experiencing through his teaching, where we have put those eggs into one basket. He shows us a direction, gives us a task, (though it never seems to be an easy one), but it strengthens and adds resolve to our character, which is always a notch on our belt that will help fortify us against future hardships. Even if at the time, we doubt ourselves and are fearful of trying.

I attribute to saturn, being able to look back on the hard times in my life, internally/externally, and be able to say "whew! i can't believe i made it through that one!" That's when my Faith in myself seems to be at its strongest.

[Madammaha]

Munch, you of all people with your knowledge of Astrology, should know that a square between Saturn in Libra and Sun Conj. Mercury in Capricorn is not an easy aspect and in addition to the Saturn Return it magnified the influence of Saturn and more over diminished the influence of the Sun, and being lead to the gutter is just the pure translation to the state your Sun is in, as for spirituality, you should decide for yourself what you want out of life and know exactly who you are, the Saturn influence of the past year was to liberate you of all prior forms of thought, and giving you the chance to know yourself in a more practical down to earth sense.
Are you good because you are good, or are you being good to trade with the spirit, and by trade I mean you do good in exchange for protection, goodwill and other favors, yes its' the known part of spirituality, but not up to a certain level. I am not trying to say what you already know but dealing with the spirit is not an easy matter it goes through phases and changes, it's for you to decide what to accept and what to refuse through your own code of ethics.

[Mark]

Munch: Your question has already been answered well above, so I can only add a little. The process of spiritual evolution is, in itself, a process of going out and coming back in repeatedly. These "orbital journeys" are the normal functioning of the Universe and it is this very process which pushes us forward. In the end, there is only one answer and this process highlights that answer for us. If we walk the path of self-orientation, we consume and destroy ourselves. There will be no end to the pain. If we walk the path of spiritual development, it will be a long, hard road, but the pain will end eventually. On the path of self, the pain never stops. The only way to become sane (and get rid of the pain) is to surrender your will to the Spirit and its Path. Anything else will leave you without comfort.

[Munch]

Thank you everyone for your responses! It's nice to have so many people take a genuine interest in my well being. Again, thank you!

Dr. Farr and R4ven thank you for thoughts. I had at one moment thought the same thing, but then opted to just not try to define this limbo state....obviously that didn't last. Having that thought confirmed is such a comfort. Sometimes I think that the dogmatic Christian faith I was brought up in still wreaks havoc on my current faith 'system' if you will. The reality that Spirit doesn't mind me flat out refusing to acknowledge it kind of gets obscured for me. Also, there's the plain old human tendency to not feel so bad when dealing with something, when they know they are not alone. R4ven, I strongly believe that you are right about the empty place that I am building from. I do view this as a wonderful gift, but want to be cautious (Saturn dominated Cap here, lol) that I build a stronger and more solid foundation before striking out.

MaeMaeI used to hate having Saturn dominate my chart and seemingly every aspect of my life, but about five years ago, I began to recognize what a gift it really is. It's kind of a shame that its so hard to see while in the midst of it all, only to have it be so glaringly obvious afterward.

Madammaha, your observation about being able to get to know myself on more practical terms seems about right and was mirrored in my Solar Return this year with stellium in Capricorn (NN, Pluto on my IC, Sun-solar eclipse, Moon and Mars) in the Solar Return 2nd house and Natal 4th. In the weeks after the Solar Return I have begun to feel much more grounded and like I am in far better touch with my Capricorn sun then I have ever been.

Mark, thank you as well. I appreciate your kind words of encouragement. I am actually doing very well. There's no pain to speak of. It's more like me flat out refusing to even acknowledge spirit in my every day. It's apparently going so well, that I am considering never looking back. I guess this is why I asked in the first place. I am in a place where I can make a very profound decision and take my life in a completely new direction that at the moment seems very appealing. Still, I am not certain that I want to walk away from spirit completely, thus the limbo place of uncertainty.

[Mark]

How exactly would you "walk away" from the Spirit? Everything, from our aware Soul to the physical matter that comprises our bodies, is made of the Spirit. Quite simply, if God is the foundation of everything, where are you going to go to get away from Him? Wherever you go, there He will be. It sounds to me like you're starting to realise the freedom inherent in human life. You've known it for a long time, but now you feel it. What every student must remember is that the natural good and spiritual path can manifest in more ways than any of us can imagine. This just means that we don't necessarily recognise things when we see them. We can't limit how the Spirit will manifest, so it is in everyone's best interest to explore and discover, rather than define and explain. I wish you happiness on your journey of discovery.

[Kannon]

Originally Posted by Munch

I've always lived my life based on the fact that I believed there was something out there and that whatever it was, was guiding me.

Last year (and maybe this is only a bad hangover from my Saturn Return) I stepped out in faith in every area of my life and thought all of the happy and positive thoughts. Affirmations, meditations, you name it. I was there and I was ready to put my faith in action......woops.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes the bottom just kinda drops out. Sometimes life just plain and simple blows. But this was different because I didn't feel any acute pain about all of the losses I accrued, instead it was because I felt disillusioned.

I've lived on the streets, having nothing doesn't bother me. Being lead by what you to believe is spirit down into the gutter is another. Suddenly, spirit seems like a dream, or something in a movie. In other words, not real. The illusion of it being real seemed to have finally slipped away.

I am not looking for a lesson. I see plenty. What I am looking for is the confirmation that my limbo status with Spirit is necessary or at least healthy. I am all but atheist at the moment.

This is new territory for me. I am not sure to where to reset my moral compass or even if I should, because if I don't have to live by the laws of Spirit (Love, kindness, compassion.....things that were also sorely missing for me last year), then aren't laws of any sort just arbitrary? Am I limiting myself unnecessarily? Why can't I just start selling narcotics to young children and make a much 'healthier' income? YES, I am being extreme, but I am merely making a point. If there is no spirit, there is no basis for morality, or at least no measure for it.

I'm rambling on so I'll just reiterate...is this a normal part of spiritual growth? Does this happen to other people? Is it time to finally let go of the security blanket? I mean, I am 30.....

Spirit is the basis for Love, not morality. Morality is holding yourself back from things you'd like to not do. Its human politeness and stability. I understand this.

I can actually relate to what you are saying. I went through a terrible low several years ago. I mean not wanting to live. Reach out for the Love and Healing. If you can really feel that - keep requesting it and reaching out until you get it - then there won't be any need for rationalizations or beliefs anymore.

Maybe you're just tired for now. Its okay. I know what its like. I think we are pushed to believe and do and we're all tied up in hoping and it can become exhausting.

When Spirit doesn't seem close, sometimes people within reach can truly make the difference.

Have faith in yourself. If your faith has been invested in Spirit as if it were 'out there', maybe its time to put it 'in there' and believe in what you feel and want and find as your passion - your curiosity, intuition, passion - that is your Purpose.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether we Love ourselves or not. Nothing to do with ego. If I can't Love myself with simple acceptance of who I am, my appearance, my mistakes, etc, then no belief matters.

[Caprising]

Originally Posted by Munch

I've always lived my life based on the fact that I believed there was something out there and that whatever it was, was guiding me.

Last year (and maybe this is only a bad hangover from my Saturn Return) I stepped out in faith in every area of my life and thought all of the happy and positive thoughts. Affirmations, meditations, you name it. I was there and I was ready to put my faith in action......woops.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes the bottom just kinda drops out. Sometimes life just plain and simple blows. But this was different because I didn't feel any acute pain about all of the losses I accrued, instead it was because I felt disillusioned.

I've lived on the streets, having nothing doesn't bother me. Being lead by what you to believe is spirit down into the gutter is another. Suddenly, spirit seems like a dream, or something in a movie. In other words, not real. The illusion of it being real seemed to have finally slipped away.

I am not looking for a lesson. I see plenty. What I am looking for is the confirmation that my limbo status with Spirit is necessary or at least healthy. I am all but atheist at the moment.

This is new territory for me. I am not sure to where to reset my moral compass or even if I should, because if I don't have to live by the laws of Spirit (Love, kindness, compassion.....things that were also sorely missing for me last year), then aren't laws of any sort just arbitrary? Am I limiting myself unnecessarily? Why can't I just start selling narcotics to young children and make a much 'healthier' income? YES, I am being extreme, but I am merely making a point. If there is no spirit, there is no basis for morality, or at least no measure for it.

I'm rambling on so I'll just reiterate...is this a normal part of spiritual growth? Does this happen to other people? Is it time to finally let go of the security blanket? I mean, I am 30.....

Have you had a look at your progressed chart recently? Anyone having Saturn conjunct Jupiter is going to have some very depressing thoughts on occasions. For the last 2 and a bit years your progressed moon has been in Capricorn, activating your natal Saturn in the first (and therefore jupiter). Right now your prog. moon is conjunct your prog venus, at 29 degrees Cap. Give it a few weeks and your prog. moon will change into Aquarius, giving you some relief, and then venus will change signs too helping you to let go of the saturn burden. Be careful with the new Aquarian energy, as transiting Uranus is in aries at the moment which will give you the urge to act without thinking first. Uranus/Aquarius is about sudden changes, so you do have change on the way concerning your moon and venus (a relationship maybe). The trick is to be aware of this change and use it to your advantage. Your 3rd house cusp recently changed to Capricorn, again activating natal Saturn. This sounds like a negative thing, but will give you the forethought and planning ahead style of thinking that will allow you to differentiate between reality and your natal moon/venus/neptune slightly deceptive emotional "guide". Your north node is in Leo, up in the tenth, you arn't supposed to be looking after the downtrodden (leave that to the Aquarian north noders), you are here to acheive something for yourself....NO thats not selfish!

[Munch]

I will respond to everyone in kind (at the moment, pressed for time, so sorry!), but wanted to comment on what you are saying Caprising.

I feel greatly that because of the slow development associated with my Sun/Mercury conjunction in Capricorn and squared by Saturn/Jupiter no less, that I've relied heavily on my Moon stellium. Very knee jerk but also very much about asking spirit, God, The Universe, whatever you call it to help me. I've always had a very open crown chakra and closed root chakra so getting my footing has been difficult and using a moon influenced heavily by Neptune and to a lesser extent, Venus is precarious and slipper slope. I think it's awesome that you spotted this and feel very validated by you bringing it up.

As for a relationship issue changing suddenly, you are also dead on. My brother (3rd house stellium) who is mentally ill and has been diagnosed with a psychotic disorder has just landed back out on the streets and now my mom and I have kicked into over drive trying to take care of this. This just happened yesterday. Talk about an emotional nightmare for all of us. Anyway, I just wanted to say that you were/are right on!

[Munch]

Mark, I really feel that you are correct! I am beginning to have glimpses of free will. I never realized how absolutely shackled I was to having a particular belief system that despite my best intentions still managed to have a doom and gloom aspect to it.

It's funny that I left the church at 18 and began pursuing a spiritual path around 23. Everything that I hated about 'religion' somehow found its way back into my psyche. I have found myself being terrified of doing the wrong things and worrying that I was going to acrue horrific amounts of bad karma for just thinking the 'wrong' thing. It's been agonizing how tightly I've keep myself in a something akin to an emotional/spiritual straight jacket. How completely Saturnian do I sound?!?

So yeah, maybe I'm not walking away from Spirit, but a very terrible image and idea of it instead. It's kinda scarey allowing myself to loosen the stranglehold on my thoughts, actions, decisions, and things that I allow myself to enjoy. In a weird way, I guess this is taking more faith than I ever exercised before.

Kannon, I think that you also hit on something important. I have always tried to love and judge myself through the eyes of my not so benevolent and understanding GOD image. Loving myself through my own eyes is a very novel idea indeed.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really do work through things better with other imput. Your kindness and objectivity is very much so appreciated.

[lazarusx]

I would second the great advice that's been offered here.

This was a short poem i wrote during my own dark night of the soul, which i still firmly believe i am in the midst of, this is a process everyone goes through on their spiritual path.. The Great Letting Go, even spirit can seem so far away as to not exist, but it is always with us.

"Lost within a sense of time and eternity
I drift aimlessly throughout my shadow.
As i hold onto the fragments of my identity,
I seek to make myself hallow.

Lonliness becomes my only companion
Through this dark night of the soul
Depression; its twin brother
And despair the mother of them all.

Burdened with this deep sense of knowing,
And with hope as far away as the edge of space,
I fall to my knee's within this eternal darkness
And cry out; God give me your grace!"

[Munch]

Thank you lazarus. Very kind of you to share.