Regiomontanus VS Placidus for Horary Charts.

[Draco]

Hi all,

Recently, in the horary charts I have been looking at, I have come to notice that when I have forgotten to change the default setting for the chart, and so look at it using Placidus, the information I obtain according to house cusps appears to be so much more relevant.

For example, in a question I asked about whether Prince Charles would succeed his mother to the throne, using the Placidus house system, I took the 5th from the 10th to show Charles, as the son of the reigning monarch, and when I counted the 10th from the 5th, for Charles' career, future and destiny, this brings me to the 11th cusp, which sits at 29 Leo, in the same degree as Regulus, the king star, which is very appropriate given the nature of the issue in question. However, when I change the system to Regiomontanus, then this cusp sits at 1 Virgo, which is still a conjunction with the star, but much less potent and compelling, as usually for fixed stars, the orb allowed is very tight, and because the cusp is not in the same sign as the star, it's significance is diminished.

Another horary chart I erected was to ask if the natal chart I rectified for my partner, would be a more appropriate chart to use than the 12 noon chart which I had been using. Again, using Placidus seemed to have more significance, in that the 9th cusp of astrology, happened to be upon the very same degree as the degree of the Ascendant I had considered using in the rectified chart. This might not neccesarily indicate that the chart is more relevant, but the fact that the 9th cusp was conjunct the degree I was considering as the Ascendant is an intriguing synchronicity, and suggests to me that I ought to be experimenting with Placidus with my horary charts. When I look at the same chart in Regiomontanus, then the 9th cusp is three degrees away from the point I was considering for the Ascendant, striking me as much less significant.

There are also other examples in which the house cusps seem to be more relevant when using Placidus, but these are two examples which I find particularly persuasive.

I understand that Nora has considered the use of Placidus houses in horary as better than Regiomontanus, but I wonder, what influenced you to think this Nora? Have you had similar charts to mine in which the Placidus system seems to turn up more significant clues?

I have always been using Regiomontanus up to now, because this is traditional for horary, but now I am starting to doubt it in favour of Placidus. I am now considering simply using Placidus for everything, because my observations are leading me to believe that it is a better choice, for me at least.

What do others think?

Draco

[Gaia]

Who is Nora? I just know that Lilly used Regiomontanus, and that it's being used especially in Europe and in horary - but you already know that...

[Summery Joy]

I'm Nora 8)

Draco,

First, I apologize for my late reply. I was out of the web-based world for Passion Week. Happy belated Easter by the way.

Down to business now. I wish I had a nice and juicy answer to your question, but the truth is I don't find more merit in Placidus. It was simply the house system I used. When I first started learning horary, I actually didn't know that there was a traditional house system for it. I simply just stuck to mine.

I don't know if one house system is better than the other. See, I don't know the differences between them. I don't know what changes in the calculation to change a chart from one system to the other. I'm simply sticking to Placidus because it has always worked.

I have a thoery though. When you told me about the fact that you can erect the horary chart for the time and date that you receives and understand the question (instead of the original data of thinking of the question), I kept wondering how it worked and gave the same answer altough we all used different data. Then it hit me. The stars know! I mean, if the stars have the answer to the questionl, surely they have the method of answering the question. Using the data of my understaning to the question integrates my method of answering horary question. So does yours and every horary astrologer. Part of this method is the house system you use. By the way, I still use the original data of the question more than I do of my understanding the question because most of the users of this forum have a good understanding of horary astrology.

If you start working with Placidus and get better results, I think it will be reflected by the planets and energy forces that give the clues to the answer.

It's just a theory though. Am I making any sense?

[Radu]

Originally Posted by Draco

Recently, in the horary charts I have been looking at, I have come to notice that when I have forgotten to change the default setting for the chart, and so look at it using Placidus, the information I obtain according to house cusps appears to be so much more relevant.

For example, in a question I asked about whether Prince Charles would succeed his mother to the throne, using the Placidus house system, I took the 5th from the 10th to show Charles, as the son of the reigning monarch, and when I counted the 10th from the 5th, for Charles' career, future and destiny, this brings me to the 11th cusp, which sits at 29 Leo, in the same degree as Regulus, the king star, which is very appropriate given the nature of the issue in question.

Originally Posted by sorehearted

Using the data of my understanding to the question integrates my method of answering horary question. So does yours and every horary astrologer. Part of this method is the house system you use.

You may be right in using Placidus for horary. I mean, we have seen in natal astrology that astrologers use all kinds of house systems (Placidus, Koch, Equal, Porphiry) and they all claim that for them that system works best. I don't see why it would be different in horary. Since the stars seem to be so clever to deliver the answer to our questions, they might keep in mind as well which house system is used by each astrologer and be positioned accordingly. This is particulary interesting in horary, as the astrologer is often part of the question not only some knowledgeable person who analyzes the chart.

I took Regio for granted as well and never use another system, but this is not a personal option, is rather a habit. This system seems to work very well for me, which I verify using the Sabian Symbols by antiscia.

Please share your horary chart on Prince Charles, if you wish.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by sorehearted

I'm Nora 8)

Thanks, good to know

[Draco]

Hi all,

Firstly, I hope you don't think I have been ignoring these messages, it's just that the yellow lights that indicate a response rarely show up for me, and so consequently it is easy to lose track. I had actually forgotten that I had posted this thread also, which is why I had not checked back.

Who is Nora?

Yes. I'll try to avoid using peoples real name's unless it's across PM's in order to avoid confusion.

Sore,

First, I apologize for my late reply. I was out of the web-based world for Passion Week. Happy belated Easter by the way.

Apologies for my late reply also for the reasons outlined above.

Ahh. So it was Passion Week. I had wondered where you had got to. Hope you had a good Easter.

The stars know! I mean, if the stars have the answer to the question, surely they have the method of answering the question. Using the data of my understaning to the question integrates my method of answering horary question. So does yours and every horary astrologer. Part of this method is the house system you use.

Yes, absolutely. I somehow feel that when I began observing charts in which I had forgotten to change the default setting, something I would normally never do, it's as if something out there was urging me to use Placidus, as if this system is just right for me in particular.

It's just a theory though. Am I making any sense?

Yes. Plenty.

Since the stars seem to be so clever to deliver the answer to our questions, they might keep in mind as well which house system is used by each astrologer and be positioned accordingly.

Absolutely, so it would seem. It never ceases to amaze me, things like this. If I didn't believe in God before I got into astrology, I certainly would now. It's as if the universe has an intelligence all of it's own.

Please share your horary chart on Prince Charles, if you wish.

This was actually my intention. I was so startled at how very significant it was to have Regulus upon the cusp of the house showing Charles' career and future, that I did intend to post it on the forum.

I am also aware that on the AW site, you express an interest in charts in which fixed stars have a particular prominence.

The trouble is, the astrology program I use had a problem, and I ended up losing all my data, and I was totally sickened.

I kept a written copy of a lot of the data, fortunately, but I am not sure that the Princes Charles chart was amongst my notes, but I will have a good look for it, and if I find it, you will see it on the boards.

I learned my lesson about keeping a written copy of my data, each time I enter new information into the program, because it is so awful to lose all the information. You never know what might happen.

Draco

[virloli]

you will notice that the Placidus cusps are the only ones that correspond to true electrical axes, i.e. the hour angle...the rest are based upon imagined points in space.

[virloli]

other thoughts come from John Frawley who used Placidus for natal and Reg for horary, but he suggests that for most purposes the two are interchangeable...your experience tends to reinforce my own opinion that Placidus is indeed best for both systems.

[Chirongirl]

That discussion was very useful for me. I was very confused about the different placement of plantes I get using different house system.

However, in this discussion, the learned astrologers seems to only thought about 2 prescribed house system; Placidus and Regiomontanus. I was wondering if I could use equal house system for Horay as well?

[dr. farr]

First I would like to fully agree with Olivia's statement about the use of any house system one prefers and has experience with.

Here's a bit of history relative to house formats in horary:

-the first generation of Arabic horary practitioners used Whole Sign house (Robert Hand has identified this historical fact)
-the second and subsequent generations of horarists used Alchabitius-this included all of the prominent authorities on horary, up through the time of Bonatti in the 13th century; contemporary Arabic horary (and mundane) practitioners continue to use the Alchabitius format
-by Renaissance times Placidus and Regiomantus became dominant in all branches of European astrology including horary
-Lilly-in his eclectic remodelling and new synthesis of previous horary concepts and practices-initiated Regiomantus as the "best" format for horary work; his followers have continued to apply the Regiomantus format in horary ever since
-The small number (compared to traditionalist horary practitioners) of Modernist horary astrologers, use either Placidus or Koch house format systems.

(I myself have gone back to the 1st generation of Arabic horary practitioners and exclusively use whole sign in horary)

[BobZemco]

If you use Arabic Parts you're basically limited to Whole Sign or Alcabitius since some of the parts are derived from House Cusp positions and because the significations presented by Masha'allah, Zael and others used those two House Systems. You can slide using the Part of Fortune, Part of Future and a other parts with Regiomontanus but not the Parts based on Cusps.

[dr. farr]

Just an additional historical note: Placidus (died 1668), while extolling natal, mundane, and medical astrology, repudiated both electional and horary astrology, declaring them to be illusions. Lilly (died 1681), the leading exponent of horary astrology in the 17th century, might have had Placidus' attacks on horary in mind, when Lilly declared Regiomantus to be the house system to use when making horary delineations...

[Chirongirl]

@ dr Farr...the whole house system gives such different reading! I am not sure if that would be appropriate to use?

[dr. farr]

Yes it often does give important differences than the quadrant systems.
But outcomes using whole sign were, apparently, "good enough" for the originators of horary (who I mentioned in my earlier posting), and, since I have been using whole sign exclusively in horary for more than a decade, the results have also been "good enough" to convince me! Robert Hand also gives an example of whole sign in horary in his booklet on whole sign houses.
But it is a judgement call, and everyone must decide for themselves, from their own experience.

[Chirongirl]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Yes it often does give important differences than the quadrant systems.
But outcomes using whole sign were, apparently, "good enough" for the originators of horary (who I mentioned in my earlier posting), and, since I have been using whole sign exclusively in horary for more than a decade, the results have also been "good enough" to convince me! Robert Hand also gives an example of whole sign in horary in his booklet on whole sign houses.
But it is a judgement call, and everyone must decide for themselves, from their own experience.

I will go for Whole house from now on! I like your judgements anyways, thats enough testimony for me!! Thanks a lot for your reply