The Saturn transit effect: does retro. differ from direct?

[ethertwist]

I'm in the middle of a Saturn square natal Venus transit (wow, has this been tough!). So far, it's made its initial direct pass this past fall (and a relationship I was in promptly hit the skids ) and it will make another in April as it retrogrades back over my natal Venus degree before the final direct pass in August. I was wondering if there is a school of thought in regards to how Saturn transits manifest and how each pass of an extended transit differs from the other (i.e., direct vs. retro vs. final direct). Are any considered more critical or challenging than the others?

Any insight or personal experiences would be much appreciated...

[Madammaha]

There are several interpretations in that area, it all depends on the chart as a whole, Saturns' position and aspects to it. I wonder with your natal Venus sextile Saturn, what was Saturn trying to teach you, did you stop and really consider this. Saturn is a great teacher.

[Lin]

Any time Saturn is within the aspect (applying, up to 7 degrees, separating about 3 degrees) it is active.(I'm talking about the square or other major aspects). If Saturn (or any heavy planets) will be returning to the exact aspect in it's retrograde or direct motion, it is considered square the entire time.
The difference between, let's say, the first pass and the last pass would be the OTHER planets aspecting both Saturn and the planet Saturn is squaring (in this case Venus) during each pass.
So if on the first pass Mars, let's say, is also negatively aspecting the Venus and on the last pass Mars is positively aspecing the Venus, etc, it will modifiy the square.
Also, you would want to see the transits in the chart of the other person...and how the transits change between the first and last passes in the composite chart.
LIN

[Svencanz]

Yep, for a triple pass there is a school of thought that says: first pass is becoming aware of problem; second is realising there is a solution that applies to you; and triple is integration.

Needless to say, this is a psychology-oriented viewpoint.

With Venus ruling short-term attraction, the loss of a relationship or something you are drawn to may manifest.

Perhaps this transit barrage represents a phase of recalibrating attraction stuff?

Cheers,
Sven

[Lovebug]

I agree with everyone else it really depends on your chart. If saturn is direct natally and the transit is retrograde then the transit could be more difficult same if saturn was retrograde natally and the transit was direct. it would be kind of of like your in conflict because you aren't used to saturn stuctured that way. Though in terms of lessons I'm not sure there are any major differences. For example saturn direct in the tenth and saturn retrograde in the tenth. I would say same issues or lesson but maybe a different perspective is to be learned. In direct you may try to build your self so you feel equal to others or feel number one. Retrograde you may just want to be good enough for yourself and focus on self-satisfaction.

[ethertwist]

So much wonderful food for thought, I can't thank you all enough for contributing and sharing your ideas and thoughts about this!

I wrote a long reply in response to what you each said, but somehow I got logged out and my post wasn't saved when I went to submit my reply.

[Lin]

Remember that Saturn is the 'tester'. If a relationship breaks up at the very beginning of a square from Saturn, then the relationship was weak. Whether is was weak from the two being incompatible, or weakened by previous transits, I don't know. But it's something that should be figured out by the person asking.
And it may be that one person has no previous negative transits (within the timeframe of the relationship) but the OTHER person might have had them....you need to know.
LIN

[ethertwist]

In my now phantom reply, I mentioned that the person I was involved with is in the thick of many tricky and challenging transits themself, so it's really was a perfect storm for the initial breakdown that coincided with the Saturn squre Venus transit in my own chart (Saturn was exactly conjunct his Moon at the time and Pluto is conjunct his Asc). Saturn certainly does have a way of exposing the cracks and weakness in the foundation of whatever it touches. I'm just hoping for a breakthrough and a resolution, which has yet to happen. We're talking again after not having any communication for two months, but it's still a stalemate and progressing very slowly (how very Saturn!)

[Madammaha]

By focusing on the Venus square Saturn, you did not mention that Saturn was and is conjuncting Pluto, trining Mars, sextiling the conjunction Mercury Jupiter, and sextiling Neptune. This is what I meant by it depends on the whole chart, the focus on the square, and the direct and retro. effect shows that you are missing the whole point of this transit.

[ethertwist]

Originally Posted by Madammaha

By focusing on the Venus square Saturn, you did not mention that Saturn was and is conjuncting Pluto, trining Mars, sextiling the conjunction Mercury Jupiter, and sextiling Neptune. This is what I meant by it depends on the whole chart, the focus on the square, and the direct and retro. effect shows that you are missing the whole point of this transit.

I suppose I am a bit hung up on the Saturn square. I definitely think there's a matrix of activity and I certainly don't wish to underplay any of the other aspects (especially the Saturn conjunction to my natal Pluto). Since I have a locomotive pattern in my chart with so many planets in the middle degrees/decanates, it's sometimes tricky to really synthesize what energies are predominant at a given time. Perhaps I'm just too close and too subjective to really get the point. I will say that my with my natal Saturn in the 2nd house and natal Venus in the 12th, this current situation is bringing up issues of self-worth, sacrifice, and emotional inequities in my relationships.

[Madammaha]

The conjunction Saturn Pluto is in your favor not against you, although the trials you are going through say different, in your case this conjunction is there to make you evolve and materialize mentally and spiritually, to make you exteriorize and open to higher levels of consciousness and understanding of yourself and your society. So many things you can understand and participate in that will add to you if you keep an open mind, you joined us here and this is a step that will help you. May be you should investigate the easy aspects to make the most out of this transit, my best wishes.

[sam7sara2011]

I am going through such a period. When saturn is retrograde it means that the ill effects of saturn are put on hold. If you like the brakes are applied to this planet. Neither good or bad happens during this period. It is a neutral period. But it is good to have a break from the ill effects of saturn.

[Lin]

To answer the post above, I say that the retrograde is supposed to be a time to WORK on the issue, not just have a cessation of the problems. If you don't work on the issue, the last pass of the square will not be satisfying.
LIN

[Svencanz]

Hi Ethertwist,

Since everybody is commenting on this, I decided to take a look and add my thoughts. I’d say we are talking about three groupings of planets that to some extent overlap.

The first grouping: Chiron, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury and Mars – all fall within a two-degree orb. This is a significant structure.

The second grouping constists of Pluto and Uranus.

The third grouping, if you can call it that, consists of Neptune – which does aspect the second grouping. This division will make more sense in a moment...

(I work with three-degree orbs only, and I put far less importance on signs than most astrologers – and even less on houses. I work with aspects.)

Let’s start with the first grouping and Saturn’s transit against it: In November of 2010, Saturn came in to form a quincunx against Chiron and a square against Venus.
Your natal Chiron to Venus sextile is very tight, adding importance. It’s a great aspect to have, and one that has bearing on committed (and karmic) relationships, as well as other stuff.
When Saturn makes a ‘clash’ aspect to both of those (Magi Astrology term; when Saturn is involved, the quincunx is a clash, otherwise it’s a positive aspect.)
This transit could have been felt from the middle of October.

After passing this critical point at November 20 or so, Saturn then catches the rest of the planets in the first grouping. However, these transits are not ‘clashes’ - they are sextiles and a trine to Mars – so the comment that you could ‘work’ on whatever it is certainly has bearing on the situation. While Saturn transits to personal planets (and to Jupiter) is not about smelly roses, these transits are ‘not too bad.’

Saturn then carries on, and just manages to ‘snag’ the second grouping during January and February this year. Now, in my book Saturn only has three possible meanings – anything else is a derivative of those: tragedy, control and science.

The ‘good things’ with the transits to the second grouping are: Saturn to Uranus is the least disruptive Saturn transit: it can be quite constructive; and, Saturn conjunct Pluto has a bit of a ‘Magician’ flavour – taking control of power (and other Pluto symbolisms.)

So that adds to the ‘work and transformation’ feeling of what’s happening.

Just after having gone retro during January, Saturn then heads back to the first grouping, transiting it during March and April. Note that Saturn did not transit Neptune, which is why I call Neptune a ‘grouping’ in this case.

During this second pass of the first grouping, Jupiter also comes rocketing through the structure: this is of help.

Okay, now I will have to correct myself, by adding another group, which I will call group Zero. The node and Saturn around 10 degrees – which was first transited in October of 2010: this adds to the karmic and ‘work’ flavour...
This group Zero is then transited again (Saturn, at least) in June.
Saturn creates another ‘snag’ – and these types of transits, where a planet tightly ‘loops’ a position are highly significant. In this case, taking control of tragedy through science, would be one possible interp.

After going direct in June, Saturn then continues forward, aspecting the first grouping during August; the second and third groupings during September.

You get a bit of a rest during parts of October, and then you’ll have your first Saturn square Sun transit in November, second in May and third in August of 2012.
But now you got some practise under your belt – and as the Sun is unaspected in the longitudes, at least (you have Mars and Neptune aspecting the Sun in the deks, just like me) it could well be ‘easier’.


Cheers,
Sven

[sam7sara2011]

Originally Posted by Lin

To answer the post above, I say that the retrograde is supposed to be a time to WORK on the issue, not just have a cessation of the problems. If you don't work on the issue, the last pass of the square will not be satisfying.
LIN

Dear Lin,

Thank you for your advice. I don't feel so helpless now. I will utilize the saturn retrograde periods well from now on.

Regards,

Cindy (Sam7sara2011)

[Lin]

One small warning, Cindy: Saturn works best when you use it to work on yourself and not try to work on others. You can't change others. So you need to think of working on all the ways you can live more consciously and face the facts of not having a lot of control on others. It's best to meditate on this part of the time that Saturn is retrograde.
and yes, "utilize" is a good Saturnian word!
LIN

[ethertwist]

Madammaha: Thank you so much for your well wishes and for putting things in proper perspective. I don't believe in flukes, so I definitely think me joining this forum and starting this thread is significant, especially seeing all the fruitful discussion it's generated thus far and will hopefully continue to generate for others all for the sake of learning. I will definitely look to the easy aspects of Saturn to uncover various approaches to mitigate the more uncomfortable aspects.

Originally Posted by Svencanz

Hi Ethertwist,

Since everybody is commenting on this, I decided to take a look and add my thoughts. I’d say we are talking about three groupings of planets that to some extent overlap.

The first grouping: Chiron, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury and Mars – all fall within a two-degree orb. This is a significant structure.

The second grouping constists of Pluto and Uranus.

The third grouping, if you can call it that, consists of Neptune – which does aspect the second grouping. This division will make more sense in a moment...

(I work with three-degree orbs only, and I put far less importance on signs than most astrologers – and even less on houses. I work with aspects.)

Let’s start with the first grouping and Saturn’s transit against it: In November of 2010, Saturn came in to form a quincunx against Chiron and a square against Venus.
Your natal Chiron to Venus sextile is very tight, adding importance. It’s a great aspect to have, and one that has bearing on committed (and karmic) relationships, as well as other stuff.
When Saturn makes a ‘clash’ aspect to both of those (Magi Astrology term; when Saturn is involved, the quincunx is a clash, otherwise it’s a positive aspect.)
This transit could have been felt from the middle of October.

After passing this critical point at November 20 or so, Saturn then catches the rest of the planets in the first grouping. However, these transits are not ‘clashes’ - they are sextiles and a trine to Mars – so the comment that you could ‘work’ on whatever it is certainly has bearing on the situation. While Saturn transits to personal planets (and to Jupiter) is not about smelly roses, these transits are ‘not too bad.’

Saturn then carries on, and just manages to ‘snag’ the second grouping during January and February this year. Now, in my book Saturn only has three possible meanings – anything else is a derivative of those: tragedy, control and science.

The ‘good things’ with the transits to the second grouping are: Saturn to Uranus is the least disruptive Saturn transit: it can be quite constructive; and, Saturn conjunct Pluto has a bit of a ‘Magician’ flavour – taking control of power (and other Pluto symbolisms.)

So that adds to the ‘work and transformation’ feeling of what’s happening.

Just after having gone retro during January, Saturn then heads back to the first grouping, transiting it during March and April. Note that Saturn did not transit Neptune, which is why I call Neptune a ‘grouping’ in this case.

During this second pass of the first grouping, Jupiter also comes rocketing through the structure: this is of help.

Okay, now I will have to correct myself, by adding another group, which I will call group Zero. The node and Saturn around 10 degrees – which was first transited in October of 2010: this adds to the karmic and ‘work’ flavour...
This group Zero is then transited again (Saturn, at least) in June.
Saturn creates another ‘snag’ – and these types of transits, where a planet tightly ‘loops’ a position are highly significant. In this case, taking control of tragedy through science, would be one possible interp.

After going direct in June, Saturn then continues forward, aspecting the first grouping during August; the second and third groupings during September.

You get a bit of a rest during parts of October, and then you’ll have your first Saturn square Sun transit in November, second in May and third in August of 2012.
But now you got some practise under your belt – and as the Sun is unaspected in the longitudes, at least (you have Mars and Neptune aspecting the Sun in the deks, just like me) it could well be ‘easier’.


Cheers,
Sven

Sven: I'm so unbelievably grateful to you for taking the time to delineate things for me in such great depth. I never expected that and I truly appreciate i! You've nailed my "groupings" without even having seen my chart! It's very interesting that you identify November 20 as a critical point. My current situation devolved rapidly over the weekend of of November 12-14. Very close to that critical date you highlighted. I'm really curious how you define the "science" outcome of a Saturn transit? It makes me think of Tarot and the Thoth deck 6 of Swords (the Lord of Science), which is all about healing and recovery.

In the Zero grouping, you mentioned my natal node and Saturn at 9 & 10 degrees Virgo. What aspect did Saturn make to those in October and will be making again in June? I'm not as well versed on the minor aspects, aside from the quincunx, which I've studied a bit of.

Strangely enough, I'm not as nervous about the upcoming Saturn-Sun activity. I feel in some strange way those energies may be less confusing and challenging for me this time around having really mined the depths of it when Saturn conjuncted my Sun and my ascendant shortly thereafter about six or seven years ago (and I made it through my Saturn Return in '08 just fine!), but it's always a wild card I suppose. I am kind of pleased to have it be crossing my IC and leaving behind the period of "obscurity" it's sometimes referred to as when Saturn transits the 1-3 houses in a chart.

One upcoming time period I'm especially curious about is the Aries new Moon on April 3, 2011. The Sun and Moon will be at 13 Aries opposite Saturn at 13 Libra, which will be forming an exact T-square to my natal Venus at 13 Cancer. I can't help but think that early April will see some critical activity given the overwhelming predominance of planets in Aries and this very pointed new moon that seems to be drawing my attention right to my natal Venus.

I never intended this thread to become a "read my chart" sort of thing, but I figure I'll go ahead and post my chart since it's been pretty well outlined so far!

Thank you again everyone for all the amazing contributions!!!

[Svencanz]

Hi again,

Thanks, but I had seen your chart....
You have listed July 17 as birth date in your profile, and you have supplied enough info to isolate the year in your posts. You have also supplied Asc and MC, so that leads to time and place. It took me less than two minutes to do.

I was out by ten minutes, roughly...

Most people here do not realise how easy it is to resurrect charts from data given in posts... but if someone gives the degree of their sun and the degrees of one of the outers, then that gives the date.
Many other configs, such as a mars to venus sextile, sign of jupiter does pretty much the same.

Solar Fire has a facility for moving years, days, hours and such around - and with that it's easy work.

And I have never understood the people who post chart pictures with the day, month, year erased - we are astrologers, after all...

Cheers,
Sven

[Svencanz]

Apects to Node and Saturn were semi-sextiles...

Just as well I was not eating my morning porridge when reading your comment that quincunx is a minor aspect - I would have spilled the plate

There are a few other things I'd like to mention about your chart - so will send a PM.

S

[ethertwist]

Originally Posted by Svencanz

Apects to Node and Saturn were semi-sextiles...

Just as well I was not eating my morning porridge when reading your comment that quincunx is a minor aspect - I would have spilled the plate

There are a few other things I'd like to mention about your chart - so will send a PM.

S

Oh no, I'm sorry for my astro faux pas! I still need to delve further into studying the quincunx because it's becoming more and more clear to me that's it's anything but minor.

[Svencanz]

Hi Ethertwist,

“I'm really curious how you define the "science" outcome of a Saturn transit? It makes me think of Tarot and the Thoth deck 6 of Swords (the Lord of Science), which is all about healing and recovery.”

There’s no better illustration of this than the story of the Columbia and the Discovery space shuttles. My Saturn values again: Tragedy (default value) control, and science.

The launch astrology of Columbia and Discovery were similar, they’d have to be – both are rockets. Applies to first launch also (their ‘birth charts’).

The astrology of the Columbia disaster is fantastic – have harped on about this before, apologies to all. But I really mean it....

The problem of the heat shield applied to both space shuttles: for Columbia, the problem wasn’t even noted – and this resulted in Tragedy (Saturn’s default value.)
Discovery’s problem was noted, occurred at launch. It was visible on video.
So, the astronauts took control of their situation, executed a space walk and repaired the heat shield – control and science, right?
Discovery landed unharmed.

When it comes to aspects and transits, each planet has a set of meanings, symbolisms – and you can ‘pick’ one that you’d like to focus on. That’s like paying homage to the planet, its energies. Sort of like Saturn saying: “I am now comining into your life...”
If you ignore that – or if you don’t even hear it – the Saturn is most likely to bring Tragedy. If you, however, acknowledge this, and say: “Welcome, for our time together this time, I’d like to focus on the scientific side of astrology/homeopathy/space travel/ or stock car racing...” (pick one)
Then Saturn will say: “Great, let’s to that!”


I’m not overly familiar with the Thoth deck, but ‘the Lord of Science’ is a great name, concept. The merging, reconciliation of the Lovers is a suitable image, and the ‘choice’ factor inherent in the Six cards. And as illustrated by the Columbia and Discovery story, Awareness is required.
The standard Six of Swords shows travelling to calmer waters. Both course and action is required (control).

“Rowing is only a magical ceremony by means of which one compels a demon to move the ship” – Freidrich Nietzsche

Don’t know how much old Nietzsche knew about Saturn, but this is a lovely statement. The idea of paying homage to a demon through a magical ceremony.
I know many people who haven’t paid this homage, who’d certainly sign a statement that ‘Saturn is demon.’

Cheers,
Sven

[kainous]

When I was having my Saturn return, the worst part of it was actually when it was in retrograde, coming back through my Ascendant/Saturn conjunction. It pretty much destroyed the person that I was. On the way back through, it built me back up.

[ethertwist]

Sven: I adore that space shuttle analogy. I like the idea of "inviting Saturn in" by giving him a specific area to concentrate on and a set of goals to accomplish. In the absence of it, therein lies the chaos and the tragedy as you so elequently described. Our goal then is to identify how we want to work with Saturn so we don't work against those energies to our disadvantage.

I love the classic tarot imagery of the six of swords as being about transition and navigating rough waters to get to better horizons. I think that Nietzsche quote couldn't be a more apt descrption of that card or of the Saturn process. Thank you for that!

Originally Posted by kainous

When I was having my Saturn return, the worst part of it was actually when it was in retrograde, coming back through my Ascendant/Saturn conjunction. It pretty much destroyed the person that I was. On the way back through, it built me back up.

That was my experience as well when Saturn crossed my ASC. I didn't really notice it during the first pass, but I became unglued during the retrograde pass and I definitely restructured my Self by the time of the third and final hit.

[sam7sara2011]

Lin, once again thank you for your words.

Regards,

Cindy

[Byron]

Just personal experience regarding negative Saturn transits. I've recently been through a triple Saturn Return, and I now am in the second (retrograde) pass of Saturn square my Ascendant.

Vista (one of our wonderful moderators) suggested that the second (retrograde) pass of Saturn coincides with the major events or "blows", whereas the final direct pass is the resolution of the event(s).

In my recent experiences, this is absolutely true. In both my recent transits, the retrograde passage of Saturn has been the truly painful hit. The first direct pass alerted me to the upcoming problems, the retrograde (second) pass bought about the crises themselves, and the the third pass (direct) brought about resolution and closure (at least in my Saturn Return).

Being in the retrograde (second) pass of Saturn square my Ascendant right now, I feel I am in the crisis stage, where all the worst appears to be happening. I had a false sense of "that wasn't so awful" after the first direct hit of the square, but now that Saturn is square in retrograde, the agony has truly arrived.