Does the 4th or 10th House Represent the Mother?

deanna · #1 11-05-2006, 08:31 PM

I just had a baby boy (first and only child. He was born on his great grandmothers birthday) I read conflicting information on the 4th house representing the Mother. Some say its the 10th house and some say its the 4th house. The theory is that the 4th house is mother since it is ruled by Cancer (moon). Could someone get me a definite answer to this? Thanks !

freedomlover · #2 11-05-2006, 10:02 PM

Concerning natal astrology, I think they both do. This would be because of the balance needed of the Cancer/Capricorn polarities. I would also add in the 1st/7th axis, rounding out the Cardinal cross. This has to do with the child's sense of identity, and how it is shaped, and how one relates to "the other". All of this generally begins with, and is largely influenced by the mother.

wilsontc · #3 11-05-2006, 10:59 PM

deanna,

Another theory is that the 4th house represents the nurturing parent (mother or father) and the 10th house represents the authoritative parent (mother or father).

Nurturing with authority,

Tim

virgo96019 · #4 11-05-2006, 11:07 PM

I always go with the 10th the mother and the placing of the moon and it's sign. I use the 4th to represent the father.
Virgo

cossie · #5 11-06-2006, 02:02 AM

Deanna Im glad someone asked this question,its one Ive often deliberated.
I agree with Wilsontc that the fourth is the nurturing parent and 10th the authorative parent regardless of wether it is the mother or father in each case. Remember some children may have only one parent in which case that parent would have to integrate both roles.
Thanks for the post.

deanna · #6 11-06-2006, 03:32 AM

Thank-you.
My son was born on his great grandma’s birthday-a very strong little Arian boy.
I am 39 and there are no children in either family.
Also with his ascendant sign being Cancer ‘mom’ is a big deal. As stated by “Freedom Lover” the 1st/7th axis need to be considered as well.
The concern is that Raiden's father is not fully involved with his life.
I think with Raiden's Sun conjunct his father’s moon in Aries that Raiden will figure it out and take the lead.

Claire19 · #7 11-08-2006, 12:13 AM

This has been an area of debate. I see the 10th as ruled by Saturn and the authoritarian parent which could be the mother or father. Many women have careers and a public life and are the breadwinners. The Moon especially in the 10th can denote this. 4th house is the house of the home and property, roots and hereditary as well as nurturance and traditionally ruled by the Moon. Saturn and the SUn for the father and Moon for the mother overall and its aspects to be taken into account. Some men are househusbands and the Sun or Saturn in the 4th can denote this. Some women own the property that is lived in also which was traditionally owned by the males so that is where the 4th was seen as father's domain by some. In this age of role reversal and stereotypes I think we need to be more flexible. However in some cultures such as the Basques the women always inherited property and it was the matrilinear line. "We know who the mother is but not always the father"

Claire

Claire19 · #8 11-08-2006, 12:16 AM

It is interesting in hereditary astrology which I have studied how many family members have birthdays on the same day or a day or so apart. This is so in my family going way back and one sign also predominates. In my case Gemini which is in my fourth house of hereditary also. So some kind of pattern is going on. Also many have Moon in the third house in my family and in Libra.

Claire

deanna · #9 11-08-2006, 02:40 AM

Very interesting
My son has Mercury in the 4th house as well - did you move a lot when you were young? That is one of the indications of Mercury in the 4th house.

It’s a good study in order to know how to work with my son about his father not being fully in his life. My son has Neptune in the 10th house which could mean a father that is not fully there.

My son chart is the flip side of mine - I have Virgo MC/Pisces DC - his is vice/versa.

My chart has always been interpreted as my father being in the 4th house. (Saturn in Aries in the 4th house/oppose Mars in Libra in the 10th house)

When maybe it should have been the 10th house – my father is a Libra.
I also moved around a lot because of him – 11 different schools. – Mercury in the 10th house.

My mother maybe should reside in the 4th house - (Neptune-my mom was not fully there when I grew up)

It’s a tricky call.

Does the masculine and feminine planets/signs that may reside in the 4th or 10th
house influence the interpretation?

freedomlover · #10 11-08-2006, 03:38 AM

Deanna,

Another way of looking it is that Cancer/4th house represents "mothering/nurturing" - regardless of which parent it is coming from. Capricorn/10th represents discipline and boundary-setting- regardless of which parent it is coming from. Ideally, a good parent of either sex should be a good combination of both. Also, Cancer/4th can represent the one-on-one training given by a parent. Capricorn/10th can represent the responsibility a child receives as it grows, encouraging the child to be self-confident in decision-making, self-discipline, etc.

Really, it's whatever way of looking at it "clicks" with you. If you can gain some clear understanding, then the symbolism is working.

Just some thoughts that came to me that I thought I would share.......

Draco · #11 11-08-2006, 04:14 AM

In the astrological tradition, the fourth house represents the father or to both parents as one unit. The tenth house represents the mother.

The houses have nothing to do with the signs, other than that there are twelve of them.

The fourth house refers to land, property, heritage, ancestry etc. and is assigned to the father, and the tenth house being it's opposite is the mother, and so it has been for over thousands of years.

The reversal of houses comes from the Alphabetical Zodiac, probably dreamed up on a beach somewhere in California, where modern astrologers do away with thousands of years of accurate written tradition by astrologers who observed the skies rather than computer screens, and assign house rulership based upon the attribution of houses to signs to planets. So 4th = Cancer = Moon = mother.

Planets, signs and houses are three sets of separate variables, and are not meant to be boiled down into one amorphous mass.

The only way in which the signs can be related to the houses is in terms of the human body and it's ailments. So, Aries relates to the head as does the first house, but this association between sign and house number is not meant to be applied in any other circumstance.

Cancer has no connection with father's, it is a feminine sign ruled by the Moon, nor does it have any connection to agriculture, the underworld, mines, buried treasure, or any other fourth house concern. The fact that the fourth house is associated with roots and the past, is one good reason that it is associated with fathers, as we inherit our names from our father, through which our lineage is traced.

The house/sign connection becomes even more unfeasible when the fifth house, the house of pregnancy and children, is assigned to Leo, which is a barren sign, and when it appears in the fifth house, can be a good indication that the native or querent will not have children.

The principle of associating the first house with Aries and so to Mars, does not make any sense, because Mars never starts anything. In which ever scheme we order the planets, Mars always sits in the middle. The way of attributing planetary rulership to the houses, begins with Saturn in the first and works it's way in to the Moon at the seventh, before the pattern is repeated again with Saturn in the eighth.

In this model, the Sun is the ruler of the fourth house, another good reason that the fourth is associated with the father.

Quote:

This has been an area of debate.

Really it isn't.

Fallacies don't cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.

deanna · #12 11-09-2006, 01:50 AM

Thank-you
This is the best interpetation that I have ever read.

Best Regards-
Deanna and Baby Raiden

Spica3 · #13 11-09-2006, 04:15 AM

Here's something to think about, though.

In Vedic Astrology, the Mother/Home/Heritage/Fixed Assets is signified by the 4th Hse, its ruling planet, and the house it is posited in. The Father/Luck/Higher Knowledge/Religion is the 9th Hse, its ruler, and the house it's in.

E.g., If the 4th Hse ruler is in the 12th Hse of Sacrifices/Waste/Losses/Confinement, then that person's ancestors are poor and of lowly birth. If it is in the 10th Hse, then there is a prominent or aristocratic lineage. If in the 2nd Hse, wealthy parents. And so on.

I still can't work out how the 9th Hse represents the Father. Maybe the connotation with benign, magnanimous Jupiter - natural ruler of Sagittarius, the 9th sign.

The other significators are Moon and Mercury for Mother, and Jupiter and Sun for Father.

But William Lilly does it this way:

FATHER
- 4th House
- 4th House ruler
- Sun in diurnal chart, Saturn in nocturnal chart
- Planet/s in 4th House

MOTHER
- 10th House
- 10th House ruler
- Venus in diurnal chart, Moon in nocturnal chart
- Planet/s in 10th House

In my case, both delineations seem to work. Nocturnal birth.
4th Hse: Gemini cusp, ruler Mercury in Pisces/2nd, Gemini Moon here
10th Hse: Sagittarius cusp, Jupiter in Taurus/3rd
9th Hse: Libra cusp, ruler Venus in Taurus/3rd, Libra Saturn here

My dad was a travelling salesman, then a craftsman/businessman, and then a church pastor. He was articulate, well-read, and was a foreigner in my country. He was a lot milder in character than my mum. He was a Capricorn.

My mum has a strong character, was a secretary before she married, is one of the few of her generation to have formal education, is a good cook, can be blunt, and is extremely religious. She's a Gemini.

I'm close to neither one, although I've lived with my mum almost all my life.

23 · #14 11-09-2006, 04:23 AM

Draco - I have heard of this issue before. So what things would you assign to each house just for my clarity?

pisceskitty · #15 11-12-2006, 09:30 PM

Very interesting thread!

Both me, and my son have Cancer ruling the 10th/Capricorn ruling the 4th. I wasn't raised by my mother, or father. I was raised by my grandmother, who was a Capricorn. In my case the ruler of my 10th[Moon] is in my 9th house. The ruler of the 4th[Saturn] is in the 8th conjunct my Gemini Moon.

The ruler of the 10th[Moon] in my son's chart is in his 7th house. The ruler of his 4th[Saturn] is in the 7th also! I wonder if he views me and his father, as his partners in some way? My son also has Neptune/Uranus in Aqaurius in his 4th house. I was a stay at home mom, until he was 3yrs old.

My son's Moon is Trine Pluto[I wonder how he views me as a mother?] His Moon is also Sextile Uranus[does he think i'm unconventional?] His Moon also sextile's Mars[in the 9th] ruler of his 7th...

Even though I wasn't raised by my mother[never knew my dad] she has always rocked, as far as i'm concerned!! I really admire her![I have Moon trine Uranus] I also have Moon square Pluto[in the 12th] I believe this represents my grandmother more than anything. She was a very controlling woman. I loved her, but I really didn't like her. She wasn't very affectionate either. It's really funny...I wind up giving birth to a little one that has Moon trine Pluto! I think he knows his mom needs some assistance!

[my Chiron is conjunct his Moon]

I wish I had the finances to travel the world with my son. I want him to see as much of the worls as possible. That Uranus/Neptune in the 4th is intersting in his case. He's an Army brat, and had a passport when he was only three yrs old[we moved around alot] He speaks German, as well as some French. His grandparents live in germany, and his father was raised in Holland. My ex-husband has an African-American father[I'm African-American] and a Caucasian-French mom. Does Uranus/Neptune in the 4th indicate an unconventional-multi-cultural family?

cossie · #16 11-13-2006, 07:14 AM

Pisceskitty, My daughter has mars conjunct Uranus and Neptune in 4th house.She also has a multi cultural family.I am British,and her father is Indian.She was born in Uk and we now live in a hindu community India.
I actually believe her 4th house planets represent my husbands family as well as myself.We live with his family and they have a big role in my daughters upbringing.

Carole · #17 11-13-2006, 01:32 PM

deanna:

I always stick with the traditional view. 4th House for the father and 10th for the mother. It works all right for me.

Carole.

Saqua · #18 11-23-2006, 12:32 PM

H4 = Heritage, family, tradition, childhood house, parent/s, estate

H10 = The World Outside which Rules (the family/ parents/ house)

People with Jupiter in 4th could be

spoiled by mom/ dad
have lots of space/ fun at home
have large extended family/ clan
have cheerful grannies
have luck in family inheritance, real estate

Very enviable...

pisceskitty · #19 11-23-2006, 11:15 PM

I have Jupiter in Aquarius in the 4th, trine Pluto in Libra in the 12th. I have to admit, I was spoiled as a child. Christmas was insane in my house! I always got what I wanted, and then some! My birthday parties were out of this world!

Yoi · #20 11-24-2006, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saqua

H4 = Heritage, family, tradition, childhood house, parent/s, estate

H10 = The World Outside which Rules (the family/ parents/ house)

People with Jupiter in 4th could be

spoiled by mom/ dad
have lots of space/ fun at home
have large extended family/ clan
have cheerful grannies
have luck in family inheritance, real estate

Very enviable...

I also read that it means that you will be well-off in your old age. I also have Venus in 8th which means a peaceful death (it's trine the Jupiter in 4th too) so hopefully I will have a happy old age.

Claire19 · #21 11-24-2006, 04:16 AM

Jupiter in the 4th can mean living abroad, living at college, later life conditions which favour philosophical truth seeking. Many things. Grannies belong to 1st and 7th houses. Great grannies in the 4th, yes. Coming from a large family. Mother is involved with aid abroad, church matters, sporty or involved in publishing, law or teaching.