Will He Change His Mind?

[RayAustin]

It would be nice to get some opinions on this chart.

Background: Querent was seeing quesited briefly, had a very romantic rapport but quesited decided he wasnt having "relationship feelings" (they met twice so far). Querent feels quesited made a premature decision as the two are very good friends with a physical connection (not fwb ). So will there be a change essentially back to how things were?


Possible Yes
Moon applies to fixed Sun (accidentally dignified) at the 5th cusp by trine, which is good. Joying Venus is retrograde at the 5th cusp, fixed. Saturn disposed by retrograde Venus. 3rd/9th cusp are at critical degree implying change in what is being told. Co-ruler of 7th Mars is at critical degree & about to jump into 1st co-ruler Jupiter's sign.

Concerns: No aspect/reception with Moon/Saturn. Moon will conjunct SN after perfecting trine to Sun. Moon in 12H.

Let me know what you think.

[misskitty]

It is a little intimidating to answer one of your horaries because you've taught me so much here and are like a teacher. But I am also concerned about the Moon in the 12th house and headed toward the SN. I have yet to see a positive outcome from a chart like that. As you point out though, the 3/9 cusp is in the last degree signifying change. This is echoed by the trine between Moon and Sun since it is an out-of-sign aspect and that also points to something needing to change first. He is in the house of endings and conjunct fixed star Vindemiatrix (sorrow, depression). He may not be in the right frame of mind for romance at this time.

[dr. farr]

(following is not in accordance with standard horary practice)

With Cancer (positing the South Node) as the ascending sign:
-in the primary Ankara horary tradition this means a "no" answer regardless of all other testimonies
-however, although I most follow the Ankara tradition, my attitude (and practice) follows Gerard of Cremona (and Agrippa): where I find the SN in the ascendant it means to me that the chart is likely to be unreliable, and therefore I suggest to people to reask the same question at a later time (for an example of this, see my post dated 10/14/10 to the thread entitled "Court Continuance?" in the Horary-Other Questions forum)

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by misskitty

It is a little intimidating to answer one of your horaries because you've taught me so much here and are like a teacher. .

Thanks MissKitty..
I am a "teacher" but also a student of course and will always be.. (as all astrologers are). And often the "student" teaches the "teacher". It is always nice to get another point of view and I am thankful for yours. I was a little vague in my delineation on purpose, heh.

The querent (friend of mine) was in a bit of a sorrowful/fearful mood asking the question which echoes the 12th house moon. She was concerned that her bit of romance with him would end, the base intention of the question is, "Will we continue our romance?"

She told me that after asking the question they hung out that night and it was very, very, positive and he definitely wants to continue seeing her; but no talk of any relationship (things are pretty early anyway and she's currently content with what she has with him). This gentleman is someone who lives far from her so she has to make a bit of a 3rd house commute. Regulus at the 3rd suggests successful commutes, and with 3rd ruler in 5th it all makes sense.

If we take the question as "we will continue our romance", the answer is yes because of the Moon-Sun trine in the 5th; Venus though weak, is favorably placed in the 5th and rules a good house. I read somewhere that good aspects between the lights implies a favorable outcome. Anyway, the trine to a fixed planet early in its sign (and a fruitful one) is good. There is also a lot of activity in the 5th house. Moon will hit all these planets strongly.

The 5th lord itself is changing and moving into a beneficial rulership.

It is true that the south node is bad, however I think is outweighed by the auspicious placement of the Sun and Venus.

Originally Posted by misskitty

He is in the house of endings and conjunct fixed star Vindemiatrix (sorrow, depression). He may not be in the right frame of mind for romance at this time.

Yes, that's true and also a concern. Fortunately Saturn is in a separating influence to that star and will be free in only 11 minutes. Also Saturn's dispositor Venus is in the 5th house, which could suggest him to be open to romance (and he apparently is).

Originally Posted by misskitty

This is echoed by the trine between Moon and Sun since it is an out-of-sign aspect and that also points to something needing to change first.

Yes.. the sign next would probably signify what the change was. Perhaps since it is Moon going into Cancer it is the querent becoming more emotionally secure and content with her relationship with him. I talked to her and that seems the most applicable, as at the time she was confused emotionally about the direction they were heading and not sure how to feel about him. I am somewhat concerned about the south node still (though honestly, I don't use it too much in my work and think the actual planetary relationships are more relevant), but after that there is harmonious aspect to Venus who is placed as good as she could be for a question like this.

Jupiter aspects the ascendant and the 5th house by trine, so I'm sure things will go well for her. There a lot of YESes in the chart, and I feel I've said much about this chart already.

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

(following is not in accordance with standard horary practice)

With Cancer (positing the South Node) as the ascending sign:
-in the primary Ankara horary tradition this means a "no" answer regardless of all other testimonies
-however, although I most follow the Ankara tradition, my attitude (and practice) follows Gerard of Cremona (and Agrippa): where I find the SN in the ascendant it means to me that the chart is likely to be unreliable, and therefore I suggest to people to reask the same question at a later time (for an example of this, see my post dated 10/14/10 to the thread entitled "Court Continuance?" in the Horary-Other Questions forum)

Thanks for your reply.

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

-however, although I most follow the Ankara tradition, my attitude (and practice) follows Gerard of Cremona (and Agrippa): where I find the SN in the ascendant it means to me that the chart is likely to be unreliable, and therefore I suggest to people to reask the same question at a later time (for an example of this, see my post dated 10/14/10 to the thread entitled "Court Continuance?" in the Horary-Other Questions forum)

I asked her to ask again today, and we made a chart just now--this time specifically about relationship prospects. This time I decided to look at it in whole sign.

As an aside note to my previous delineation, using their significators as Sun/Venus the answer would be yes to romance (5th house conjunction), and a yes to changing his mind towards a relationship, though this relationship would be more lovers and sexual/friendship oriented. He would be approaching her, which he did. Last time they talked before they spent time together and the reason she made the first chart, she told me that he did not want a relationship because he didn't think he was feeling strongly enough towards her. He said he wanted to be "just friends". So when they spent time together, she acted as his friend the whole time but then he was the one who approached her romantically which would be the Sun approaching Venus in 5H.




The chart doesn't at first seem positive with Moon separating from Saturn but she left his house earlier today so it makes sense. Saturn is exalted in the 10th in Libra sans the Vindemiatrix influence. That gives general success to the question since Libra = relationship/partnership. The main significators are into themselves as present situation, I asked her what this could mean and she said she is definitely more focused on her job but still interested; and they won't see each other until next week most likely.

What's the most significantly positive I would consider as the definite yes though, is the Sun-cazimi-Venus conjunction in the 11th. So through friendship they get together.. since she is in his "heart". There a bunch of other positive things, haha, but I always wonder if I am writing to myself (am I pointing out worthwhile things or not).

[misskitty]

It's interesting that Venus rules the 5th/11th axis (using whole signs) and the Sun-cazimi-Venus conjunction is happening in her 11th house... there must be a strong vibration of friendship between them.

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by misskitty

It's interesting that Venus rules the 5th/11th axis (using whole signs) and the Sun-cazimi-Venus conjunction is happening in her 11th house... there must be a strong vibration of friendship between them.

Yeah. From what she tells me, sounds like there is! I'll ask her to keep me updated and let you know what happens.

[scorpittarian]

in the first chart, the moons' last aspect is a square to jupiter.
jupiter being angular & domicile is not only strong but being retro its' debilated as well....its not interested in helping the moon at all.....so we can consider this as prohibition.
a planet in the last 3 degrees is said to be in the process of some major changes....saturn @ 11 deg libra = no change in situation.....moon @ 22 deg gemini doesnt promise much here. it hs 2 travel a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnggg distance b4 it trines the sun but on its way, it collides wd the SN which destroys the question & jupiter.....

in the second chart, the main significators arent applying to each other in any way.
the secondary significators, the venus & the sun, are cazimi in the turned 5H....a possible fling or sexual encounter but doesnt promise anything longterm.....
here the sun is not his heart but his mojojojooooo.....

[Arijana]

Originally Posted by scorpittarian

in the first chart, the moons' last aspect is a square to jupiter.
jupiter being angular & domicile is not only strong but being retro its' debilated as well....its not interested in helping the moon at all.....so we can consider this as prohibition.
a planet in the last 3 degrees is said to be in the process of some major changes....saturn @ 11 deg libra = no change in situation.....moon @ 22 deg gemini doesnt promise much here. it hs 2 travel a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnggg distance b4 it trines the sun but on its way, it collides wd the SN which destroys the question & jupiter.....

in the second chart, the main significators arent applying to each other in any way.
the secondary significators, the venus & the sun, are cazimi in the turned 5H....a possible fling or sexual encounter but doesnt promise anything longterm.....
here the sun is not his heart but his mojojojooooo.....

hahhaha

can u elaborate on the

'' it collides wd the SN which destroys the question & jupiter.....''

[RayAustin]

She doesn't want a longterm relationship (contradictory, I know). In any event from details of the situation it's impossible anyway.


C. wanted to continue the romance with him, which they are... we re-phrased the question as "will we continue our romance?" because that was the heart of the question. They have a strange friendly romance thing going on she says, neither are in love with eachother which we can see with the reception in the chart. But the perhaps "sub-conscious" significators Sun/Venus are very active.

Just to make my methods clear, this was an experiment. I would not use Sun/Venus as primary significators but they can show underlying energies and should be noted when they're so prominent.

r.a.

[RayAustin]

Originally Posted by scorpittarian

jupiter being angular & domicile is not only strong but being retro its' debilated as well....its not interested in helping the moon at all.....so we can consider this as prohibition.

It would only be prohibition if Moon was applying to something that indicated a yes and Jupiter got in the way of it. What it does show I think is another man coming back to the picture, since another guy she was talking to who'd disappeared suddenly came back into the picture (very unstably so), and changed her outlook about guy 1.

it collides wd the SN which destroys the question & jupiter.....

I can understand that it destroys the question no doubt about that, but Jupiter? How are you saying it does that?

in the second chart, the main significators arent applying to each other in any way.
the secondary significators, the venus & the sun, are cazimi in the turned 5H....a possible fling or sexual encounter but doesnt promise anything longterm.....
here the sun is not his heart but his mojojojooooo.....

The 11th house is going to be an emphasis on friendship between the two. So he takes her into his heart as his friend and lover.

[Serendipity]

Is this a day or night chart?
Moon is peregrine and in the 12th. He receives her by term and possibly triplicity depending on when the chart was cast so obviously he has fond feelings for her. Saturn is strong and angular. Superior planet and stubborn. He's in his own 10th so perhaps he is just concentrating on career matters at the moment. No aspect between them suggests he may not change his mind.
Moon is applying to Sun but has to change signs to perfect. Right now the Sun is in the sign of the Moon's fall. Moon applies by square to a debilitated Jupiter from a sign of it's detriment. I believe the answer is no.

[RayAustin]

The first is a night chart, the second is a day chart.

[dr. farr]

(Following is not in acordance with standard horary practice and is based on whole sign house format)

Venus cazimi in quesited's 5th house of romance is very strong (my ideas about cazimi reflect alchemical outlooks; for me it can just about overcome all negative testimonies)

However:

-neither Sun (which is in union with the significator of love, Venus) nor Venus are primary significators in this chart
-while (in my belief system) Venus can always be a co-significator in love matters, and the vitalizing life-favoring influence of the Sun can often make it a co-significator in love matters, and if there were no really significantly strong negative testimonies in the chart, I would render a "yes" answer (by primary Ankara horary interpretation)...

-Yet I say the answer to this question (at the current period of time indicated by the ascending sign of this chart) is "No"...
-why? Because the Dragon's Tail posits "him"-the quesited, the subject of this chart, and, secondarily considered as the house of relationships (the 7th), casting its pall on the (current) potential of relationship, as well.

The Tail vitiated the first question by its placement in the ascending sign; now here it indicates (by my methdology) a negative environment for him and for him+her in their relationship potential (both = 7th house) The only redeeming factor of any importance is the Moon (7th house significator) posited in an elevated degree. This coupled with Venus cazimi would make me say yes, definitely favorable for this chart EXCEPT for the prominent Dragon's Tail position in the 7th.

(Likely) operative time frame for the influences indicated in this horary: approximately 10 weeks (based upon Al-Biruni's zodiacal time tables-minimum days), after which time influences could change significantly (perhaps Venus-cazimi hints that will happen??)

[RayAustin]

Thanks for the input. I'll give updates as I find out.