What is the most violent aspect?

[dr. farr]

Very informative material regarding violence, violent temperament, murder, and the astrological indicators for these states, can be found in:
-"Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology" by Charles Carter (this information is based on Carter's statistical studies)
...and
-"Encyclopedia of Medical Astrology" by H. L. Cornell-particularly see the entries under "violence" and "murder"

Mars, of course, plays a role as shown in the above studies by Carter and Cornell; but by no means is Mars always the dominant factor! Uranus, the Sun, connections with certain fixed stars, Saturn-all are potentially strong "violence indicators".

Although not mentioned by either Carter or Cornell in their studies, I have frequently noticed connections with the South Node (Dragon's Tail) to be very strong indications of potential violence/activated violence, in numerous natal (and progressed) charts.The conjunction or parallel of declination with the DT is strongest, but I have also sometimes seen the square aspect (degree square) quite indicative of violence as well (Note: I am including "violent temper" here whenever I use the term "violence")

[reallypisces]

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question regarding the positions of Mars. I read among the replies that Mars in Gemini is considered weak. Why is it so? I know that Mars in air signs is not considered too strong, but is it something particular about Gemini?
This topic is interesting for me because I have never really understood my Mars. I have Mars in Gemini conjunct Jupiter in my 1st house. My birth time might not be perfectly accurate, but from the which I know this conjunction conjuncts my late degrees Taurus ascendant. I have never considered myself aggressive or even too capable of aggression. I have been bullied, but I couldn't even figure out what to do, so I just tried not to notice. It often seems to me that if someone is being verbally aggressive you just have to say the right thing and you will protect yourself, but I couldn't say anything, my head was completely empty. I also don't like quarreling and I become intimidated when somebody becomes aggressive. I have also not very strong square between my Gemini Mars and Pisces Mercury. I'm not very sure how this manifests, but it seems to me that I sometimes say something silly without thinking about it and then feel ashamed. I am also constantly struggling with my scatter-mindedness and sometimes I feel rather slow-witted.

[Saturnian]

Originally Posted by templeton

Haha. I told you so. Did you read the story about the baby who was born on 8/9/10 at 11:12 pm?

http://www.fox10tv.com/dpps/news/str...10-jgr_3543143



Typical double . She was just born and already has to be in the spotlight lol.

Haha,what can you do...Leos after all are meant to be known.

[Athene]

Originally Posted by reallypisces

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question regarding the positions of Mars. I read among the replies that Mars in Gemini is considered weak. Why is it so? I know that Mars in air signs is not considered too strong, but is it something particular about Gemini?
This topic is interesting for me because I have never really understood my Mars. I have Mars in Gemini conjunct Jupiter in my 1st house. My birth time might not be perfectly accurate, but from the which I know this conjunction conjuncts my late degrees Taurus ascendant. I have never considered myself aggressive or even too capable of aggression. I have been bullied, but I couldn't even figure out what to do, so I just tried not to notice. It often seems to me that if someone is being verbally aggressive you just have to say the right thing and you will protect yourself, but I couldn't say anything, my head was completely empty. I also don't like quarreling and I become intimidated when somebody becomes aggressive. I have also not very strong square between my Gemini Mars and Pisces Mercury. I'm not very sure how this manifests, but it seems to me that I sometimes say something silly without thinking about it and then feel ashamed. I am also constantly struggling with my scatter-mindedness and sometimes I feel rather slow-witted.

Not looking at your whole chart woud be insuficient for an actual interpretation, but i can give it a try.

So you have Mars in Gemini and Mercury in Pisces, now i would like to know if it is applying or separating, but i know it is a waning square aspect. Second i know that this square is formed by two mutable positions, the first air phase of the cycle Mars, and the last wather phase Mercury. So, by overall, your role, by their aspect phase, in the world is not of someone that take strong and ultimative positions, but rather plays the connective tissue, and lets not delude ourself that that is something not important. We have plenty of those strongwilled who knows how to state their own piece of mind disregarding the impact and implications it has on the general and collective.

Having the lord of self-expression Mars in Gemini, your drive is of that kind that need high strung imputs to charge oneself, playing on quickness and multitasking abilities, but it can be found on somewhat of short span. This kind of Mars craves variety of imputs to stay motivated.

The lord of coordination Mercury, one that modulate the basic set of someones mindframe found in Pisces, is the most peaceful, nonagresive mindtype of all. In particular, this kind of interface deals with most of avaliable factors when meant to make some statement. Therefor it has somewhat of an passive external edge what is due to the amount/span in need of processing, drawing imputs from a fairly broad and wide sphere. But internally, it is very live and sparkling, creative and caring mind.

So having them in a waning square plays out the objectification phase in their relationship, aiming through the transpersonal. A square always state a need to manifest and enroot this statement of his. So, this is probably a very visible aspect of yourself. Here the clarity, eaven transparency is intended in the way you manifest your mind over your actions. You couldnt really be called sneaky by any means, but rather, candid, blunt. This is an aspect that gain an overall mind/action wiew so calculations could be made to meet the ends wanted. And here, one thing in need to be underlined, especially with someone of a sensitive Piscean mind is, that rather than others or eaven your own actions, you and your mind are the one in control. Having a Pisces Mercury is really not easy, but when you learn how to manage it it can do wonders indeed ! What is basicly required first is, to aknowledge your own piece of mind bether I can tell that you're pretty young and have not yet completed all the basic planetary cycles, therefore some of the issues you cope today could squarely work out and trough in some time

When we place this square in the constellation phase, we have a caring mind interfacing a daring temper. Gemini Mars is a one that rarely takes a no for an answer, pushy, witty but only to the point when someone temper arises (as fire consumes air so anger consumes the Gemini configuration) while Pisces Mercury easely found itself to know more than wanted . . so, here we have someone who is eager to speak eaven when others dare not, see and understand what others tend to overlook and have no problem to verbaly work those ichy parts, basicly, issues have a difficult time to keep low profile this kind of situation.

Coming back on Mars, here the lord of self-expression is conjonted to the lord of transpersonal integration Jupiter, so we have a kind of Mars that draws and invests it's means of expresion directly through and as a transpersonal interface, and once again, the theme of been a colective connective tissue rises up strongly. Some of Gemini/Mars liability too are by this conjunction in someway mitigated. This is one very natural planetary aspect, cose Mars is linked to Jupiter as it's own key. Now, having them in 1st points to been fairly strongly exposed in therms of character/Mars and/or circumstances/Jupiter, but having them splited between the AC or in 12we would play out otherwise, if not in opposite fashion. So, to be clear on that can help you ratify your chart more corectly.

Another thing, if your AC is Taurus, then your 12we cusp is problably in Aries. The tasks you find most traying in curent lifetime could be easely found on the personal Mars plane, and therefor you experience some of those setbacks.

Once again, i cant be precise or definitive not having seen your whole chart, in therms of highlighting the reasons of been bulled, or why would they pick on you, so, put up your chart, then we will look.

Keep hanging,
love,
A.

[Athene]

Originally Posted by templeton

This baby has rather serious issues to manifest, that much is obvious

[reallypisces]

Athene, thank you for your very insightful reply!
You guessed correctly that I’m quite young. I’m 21, but I usually feel younger. It is very interesting what you say about connective tissue. It is true that I rather seek compromise than stand firmly for my own position. I'm not sure about the collective thing. It is sometimes difficult for me to see the bigger picture of a situation maybe because of being emotional. I kind of try to overcome that by studying philosophical works.

Here's my chart:

[Athene]

Originally Posted by reallypisces

Athene, thank you for your very insightful reply!
You guessed correctly that I’m quite young. I’m 21, but I usually feel younger. It is very interesting what you say about connective tissue. It is true that I rather seek compromise than stand firmly for my own position. I'm not sure about the collective thing. It is sometimes difficult for me to see the bigger picture of a situation maybe because of being emotional. I kind of try to overcome that by studying philosophical works.

Here's my chart:

.

Oh lord, what a huge 6/12we axis ! Here we have one non-violent chart indeed

First the Sun/Venus conjunction > non-violent
Second Piscean Mercury > non-violent
Third anaretic (last degree of a sign) Moon in Cancer in the 4th> non-violent
Eaven Mars conjunct Jupiter is a rather magnanimous than violent aspect, and you have no planetary oppositions whatsoever.

I was wrong for the Aries cusp, but there we have one very interesting cicumstance. The first thing that stroke me seeng your chart is Mercury on top of your North Node. You calculated the mean, try with the true but eaven so, the conjunction cant be overlooked. When you said that your mind tend to go blank in stressful situations, that is one fairly described liability of having Mercury in this position. But i must take one step back first.

You have the most crutial factor of the chart, Sun in you 12we. Chosing this position for ones Sun i.e. cosciousness means to be willing to go trough enough hardship what in in exchange offers understanding soulfulness indepth, here within the realm of living biengs. It's basicly a matter of why we are how we are, and i could spread it beyond humans only. Wisdom we gain when seen all the colors in the 'picture'. But that's not something anybody dare to do, we are rather unwilling to meet the truth eyelevel . . . .

Back on Mercury, you'we found one really nice way to pump your mental muscles Keep on the good work ! My advice would be to learn how to meditate too, you dont only need discipline, what from you'll benefit most is enough fuel to process all that pedagogy, and meditation terefor. You could be litle clear on the colective part having Mercury on NN, but when he's placed in the 11th, the case is that you're so much emotional in regard and becouse of the colective rather than yourself only ! With the 11en you simply cant bypass it. it's in it's own nature to be cooperative.

Mercury and mental articulation, 'wireing' and networking of the minds are your life themes. When you'll come to age to approach public and academic work,there id where it's strong edge and reliability would manifest. But fairly and squarely, a 12we house Sun is never an easy path. You must find your means to discipline yourself mentaly, in regard to the earthly plane, cose having your whole chart in mind, there is no place for stupidity, only for (in)expirience

Take care,
love,
A.

[reallypisces]

Originally Posted by Athene

.

Oh lord, what a huge 6/12we axis ! Here we have one non-violent chart indeed

First the Sun/Venus conjunction > non-violent
Second Piscean Mercury > non-violent
Third anaretic (last degree of a sign) Moon in Cancer in the 4th> non-violent
Eaven Mars conjunct Jupiter is a rather magnanimous than violent aspect, and you have no planetary oppositions whatsoever.

I was wrong for the Aries cusp, but there we have one very interesting cicumstance. The first thing that stroke me seeng your chart is Mercury on top of your North Node. You calculated the mean, try with the true but eaven so, the conjunction cant be overlooked. When you said that your mind tend to go blank in stressful situations, that is one fairly described liability of having Mercury in this position. But i must take one step back first.

You have the most crutial factor of the chart, Sun in you 12we. Chosing this position for ones Sun i.e. cosciousness means to be willing to go trough enough hardship what in in exchange offers understanding soulfulness indepth, here within the realm of living biengs. It's basicly a matter of why we are how we are, and i could spread it beyond humans only. Wisdom we gain when seen all the colors in the 'picture'. But that's not something anybody dare to do, we are rather unwilling to meet the truth eyelevel . . . .

Back on Mercury, you'we found one really nice way to pump your mental muscles Keep on the good work ! My advice would be to learn how to meditate too, you dont only need discipline, what from you'll benefit most is enough fuel to process all that pedagogy, and meditation terefor. You could be litle clear on the colective part having Mercury on NN, but when he's placed in the 11th, the case is that you're so much emotional in regard and becouse of the colective rather than yourself only ! With the 11en you simply cant bypass it. it's in it's own nature to be cooperative.

Mercury and mental articulation, 'wireing' and networking of the minds are your life themes. When you'll come to age to approach public and academic work,there id where it's strong edge and reliability would manifest. But fairly and squarely, a 12we house Sun is never an easy path. You must find your means to discipline yourself mentaly, in regard to the earthly plane, cose having your whole chart in mind, there is no place for stupidity, only for (in)expirience

Take care,
love,
A.

Is the 12th house really that non-violent?
Yes I know about my North Node conjunction with Mercury. Actually I'm not sure if it's really in the 11th house because my birth time might not be very correct and it wouldn't take much time for it to be actually in the 12th. About my mind - actually I tend to get scatter-minded not only in stressful situations. It is rather that I have somehow used to a kind of lack of mental discipline. It has been true since I remember myself and it is sometimes difficult to explain even to myself why there are so often situations where I can't think of anything at all.

You mentioned about meditation. Recently I thought that it would be really healthy to try some meditation, but actually I have no idea how to do it. I'm also a bit worried if meditation can't somehow go wrong and have a negative effect if done improperly.

The Sun in the 12th - that I definitely have. It seems to me that this has put me into a position of constant puzzlement about the world and my place in it. The positive side is perhaps that it makes me want to understand it better. On the contrary, one of the negative aspects I think is that it makes me a bit unpractical and I try somehow to solve this problem. I wouldn't want to become a person who only thinks of kind of lofty things while being immature and unexperienced at the seme time.

By the way, I feel much better since I started studying philosophy. I guess it's really my Mercury saying thanks. I actually think that the position of Mercury is perhaps the most intriguing in my chart - it is not considered strong, but it has conjunction with my North Node, and it seems that it also kind of connects my personal planets with the transpersonal ones. Besides a weak waning Venus-Pluto trine I have no personal planets aspecting Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, except my Mercury (well it doesn't actually have that Uranus aspect I guess).

I must say thank you again. It seems to me that you really have skills as well as a keen intuition because you say things that are very accurate, at least I can say that my Mercury gets aroused . Are you a professional astrologer?

[Athene]

Originally Posted by reallypisces

Is the 12th house really that non-violent?
Yes I know about my North Node conjunction with Mercury. Actually I'm not sure if it's really in the 11th house because my birth time might not be very correct and it wouldn't take much time for it to be actually in the 12th. About my mind - actually I tend to get scatter-minded not only in stressful situations. It is rather that I have somehow used to a kind of lack of mental discipline. It has been true since I remember myself and it is sometimes difficult to explain even to myself why there are so often situations where I can't think of anything at all.

You mentioned about meditation. Recently I thought that it would be really healthy to try some meditation, but actually I have no idea how to do it. I'm also a bit worried if meditation can't somehow go wrong and have a negative effect if done improperly.

The Sun in the 12th - that I definitely have. It seems to me that this has put me into a position of constant puzzlement about the world and my place in it. The positive side is perhaps that it makes me want to understand it better. On the contrary, one of the negative aspects I think is that it makes me a bit unpractical and I try somehow to solve this problem. I wouldn't want to become a person who only thinks of kind of lofty things while being immature and unexperienced at the same time.

By the way, I feel much better since I started studying philosophy. I guess it's really my Mercury saying thanks. I actually think that the position of Mercury is perhaps the most intriguing in my chart - it is not considered strong, but it has conjunction with my North Node, and it seems that it also kind of connects my personal planets with the transpersonal ones. Besides a weak waning Venus-Pluto trine I have no personal planets aspecting Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, except my Mercury (well it doesn't actually have that Uranus aspect I guess).

I must say thank you again. It seems to me that you really have skills as well as a keen intuition because you say things that are very accurate, at least I can say that my Mercury gets aroused . Are you a professional astrologer?

No, but it seems that i tend to evolve in that direction. What i have is gut intuition suported by one strong and hungry Mercury that tends to laps in hyperfocus. And frankly, i'we got enough of it's pace, it can make me go for days without any sleep, sometimes i just crave to be mindless

Coming back on the topic, i never said tha the 12we was non-violent. Rather, i think that, as the least of the phase cycle, and progressing through in souch a mess of a world we found ourself fairly tired when approaching their gates. So basicly what i'we come to understand is that all our issues that meet the philosophy in a "why doing today what you can do tomorow?" fashion, is what keeps this house of a problematic character. We tend really to belive that "what is far from the sight is far from the heart" but the 12we allways keeps us reminding that that is not the least true. This is the house of self-transcending, so how is that that is rumored here to be found secret enemies and such stuff ? Learning about the 12we is one trully philosophical expirence.

You see, in therms of relation and relating you have allwys two basic situations, the like or the dislike. You can have there indifference too, but then we are speaking of no relation(ship) at all. So basicly, beyond that what is found invisible to your sight, what you tend to ignore, you have, or allies or enemies in this world. We tend to keep allies close and push the 'enemies' away, but eventualy we'll have to deal with them too, and when we leave things to the last second, i.e. the 12we, things can easely escalate. No being have to be our natural enemy, we can allways befrend beyond our own nature too and that can be seen eaven in the animal kingdom, but to do so, certain prerogatives needs to be meet.

First, dealing with a 12we, we are speaking in therms of acceptance, and the acceptance is the basic highway to love. The 12we is the cycle phase of cooperation and coordination, aiming through the transpersonal to support the personal spheres. We cant make a composite infrastructure if we keep disregarding it's componets, and the structure that does not support those components will naturaly collapse. So, what is that we are looking at here ? The first requirement needed is absolute acceptance, the non-judgmental, agape-love-and-forgiveness-no-mather-what-type, and to pharaphrase further, you cant be called a trully mistic if you cant fully accept reality first. And it's not easy to accept reality for what it is, it requires a great amount of strength to deal with all the pain pushed asside, the strength that we are often short of, but why ? The 12we is meant to speak about evolution what can be done only in conjoined formation, it's a mather of (critical mass) energy, but having no acceptance, what means having no cooperation speaks about us strugling still here with issues of pure survival. Rather than only by critical mass, conjointed formations tend to multy-multy-multiply the enegry amount, but what we are doing as a collective is to mutually sucking and vampirize on energy supplies, depending on who's on the strong or weak point in the chain, and the roles reverses cose nothing is everlast. Enough said.

Second, how to extend that unconditional love and acceptance of yours ? We have to keep in mind that, working the 12we trough means we have adequately worked through the whole previous parts of the chart, and that is a lifetime amount of work. To manage such task, good organization is crutial, and where we look for such thing ? We look at the opposite side of the 12we house axis, i.e. the 6th phase of the chart. Here we found the rhytm needed to balance the energy levels of our being, we learn that no edge has precedence, been pleasent or unpleasent, the work must be done. All has it's own 'when' and 'where' and keep wallking down we eventually learn the 'why' or 'how'. The expirience teaches us to equaly pay attention to the lows and up's sides of life. Preserving ones energy when is needed, investing when is possible and wise. When we speak about equality we do not compell only duty thoward the world, but the balance of it with the duty we have toward ourself. Keeping good care of and keeping spheres equal in regard. If we learn how to play our cards corectly, we can keep hanging for a long time and therefor reach the 12we where we meet some rather meaningful and productive tasks. One thing that i'we came to understand is that, people do not disregard the choice of acceptance out of own will, but rather out of strength to paying enough attention to discern corectly. People are allmost intentinaly not rised to be helthy, phisically, emotionaly, mentaly and spiritually, and the results show themsefs in the 12we, where you'll be meant to spread wings and rise, you're inevitably doomed to fall. A shameless civilisation of ours.

Those are the two most basic requirements for a corect 12we house approach. The third would be having the will to engage with the 12we house issues, and that can be found with one 12we house Sun. But i will come back on that, i have to go now

[reallypisces]

Originally Posted by Athene

No, but it seems that i tend to evolve in that direction. What i have is gut intuition suported by one strong and hungry Mercury that tends to laps in hyperfocus. And frankly, i'we got enough of it's pace, it can make me go for days without any sleep, sometimes i just crave to be mindless

Coming back on the topic, i never said tha the 12we was non-violent. Rather, i think that, as the least of the phase cycle, and progressing through in souch a mess of a world we found ourself fairly tired when approaching their gates. So basicly what i'we come to understand is that all our issues that meet the philosophy in a "why doing today what you can do tomorow?" fashion, is what keeps this house of a problematic character. We tend really to belive that "what is far from the sight is far from the heart" but the 12we allways keeps us reminding that that is not the least true. This is the house of self-transcending, so how is that that is rumored here to be found secret enemies and such stuff ? Learning about the 12we is one trully philosophical expirence.

You see, in therms of relation and relating you have allwys two basic situations, the like or the dislike. You can have there indifference too, but then we are speaking of no relation(ship) at all. So basicly, beyond that what is found invisible to your sight, what you tend to ignore, you have, or allies or enemies in this world. We tend to keep allies close and push the 'enemies' away, but eventualy we'll have to deal with them too, and when we leave things to the last second, i.e. the 12we, things can easely escalate. No being have to be our natural enemy, we can allways befrend beyond our own nature too and that can be seen eaven in the animal kingdom, but to do so, certain prerogatives needs to be meet.

First, dealing with a 12we, we are speaking in therms of acceptance, and the acceptance is the basic highway to love. The 12we is the cycle phase of cooperation and coordination, aiming through the transpersonal to support the personal spheres. We cant make a composite infrastructure if we keep disregarding it's componets, and the structure that does not support those components will naturaly collapse. So, what is that we are looking at here ? The first requirement needed is absolute acceptance, the non-judgmental, agape-love-and-forgiveness-no-mather-what-type, and to pharaphrase further, you cant be called a trully mistic if you cant fully accept reality first. And it's not easy to accept reality for what it is, it requires a great amount of strength to deal with all the pain pushed asside, the strength that we are often short of, but why ? The 12we is meant to speak about evolution what can be done only in conjoined formation, it's a mather of (critical mass) energy, but having no acceptance, what means having no cooperation speaks about us strugling still here with issues of pure survival. Rather than only by critical mass, conjointed formations tend to multy-multy-multiply the enegry amount, but what we are doing as a collective is to mutually sucking and vampirize on energy supplies, depending on who's on the strong or weak point in the chain, and the roles reverses cose nothing is everlast. Enough said.

Second, how to extend that unconditional love and acceptance of yours ? We have to keep in mind that, working the 12we trough means we have adequately worked through the whole previous parts of the chart, and that is a lifetime amount of work. To manage such task, good organization is crutial, and where we look for such thing ? We look at the opposite side of the 12we house axis, i.e. the 6th phase of the chart. Here we found the rhytm needed to balance the energy levels of our being, we learn that no edge has precedence, been pleasent or unpleasent, the work must be done. All has it's own 'when' and 'where' and keep wallking down we eventually learn the 'why' or 'how'. The expirience teaches us to equaly pay attention to the lows and up's sides of life. Preserving ones energy when is needed, investing when is possible and wise. When we speak about equality we do not compell only duty thoward the world, but the balance of it with the duty we have toward ourself. Keeping good care of and keeping spheres equal in regard. If we learn how to play our cards corectly, we can keep hanging for a long time and therefor reach the 12we where we meet some rather meaningful and productive tasks. One thing that i'we came to understand is that, people do not disregard the choice of acceptance out of own will, but rather out of strength to paying enough attention to discern corectly. People are allmost intentinaly not rised to be helthy, phisically, emotionaly, mentaly and spiritually, and the results show themsefs in the 12we, where you'll be meant to spread wings and rise, you're inevitably doomed to fall. A shameless civilisation of ours.

Those are the two most basic requirements for a corect 12we house approach. The third would be having the will to engage with the 12we house issues, and that can be found with one 12we house Sun. But i will come back on that, i have to go now

From where do you get that information about the 12th house?
It is so frightenly accurate what you say about "why doing today what you can do tomorow?" Perhaps I'm starting to understand what 6th house means. I'm very often in a situation where I lack time to finish some task and I realize that it's partly because I've started too late and in a too non-organized way. Recently I thought that I should remind myself that what seems far now will be here and now some day. Actually I sometimes can't believe that something will come if it "lacks reality", that means, if I can't imagine it. Then if I have to do something, but lack motivation I try to imagine the moment when this really has been done and in this way somehow "get it closer to reality".

I think that it is a very complicated issue about acceptance. I's really not "just accept", its about "why accept"and "how accept". I guess you really have to come to that conclusion by experience.

[Athene]

Originally Posted by reallypisces

From where do you get that information about the 12th house?
It is so frightenly accurate what you say about "why doing today what you can do tomorow?" Perhaps I'm starting to understand what 6th house means. I'm very often in a situation where I lack time to finish some task and I realize that it's partly because I've started too late and in a too non-organized way. Recently I thought that I should remind myself that what seems far now will be here and now some day. Actually I sometimes can't believe that something will come if it "lacks reality", that means, if I can't imagine it. Then if I have to do something, but lack motivation I try to imagine the moment when this really has been done and in this way somehow "get it closer to reality".

I think that it is a very complicated issue about acceptance. I's really not "just accept", its about "why accept"and "how accept". I guess you really have to come to that conclusion by experience.

Complicated indeed, cose is an issue of the last phase of the whole cycle, the 12we, and therefor demanding indeed. As the last link in the chain, the 12we is rarely given enough time to speak openly, if at all, so mostly we are not sure on what ground do we stand when we stand in tis house. Making it most simple, acceptance would be a mather of not making blockages in ones own system, by delivering renegates and outkasts out of short judgement. Sociology could greatly benefit from some of the insights gained by physicists, because, everything, without exception is energy, bodies, stars, thoughts, emotion, souls, and everything without exception work in systems. And what they say about energy is that "no thing is gained, no ting is lost, everything transforms". We had a long time till now to expirience how the approach "off with their heads" work/dosent work, and eaven enough time to aknowledge that in popular culture, the alltogether culture of common people, 'rightful revenge' is worshiped on the same foot as 'love'. Huh, how is that possible ? An in addiction, they allmost fused together. In therms of consciousness, i find that at least alarming, if not worse.

Im not sure have you understand me well on the "do today/do tomorow" part. To draw acurate insights here is not very possible if you fragmentalize and focus on specific areas of the wheel, at least not having the whole wheel in mind. I too had to 'chew' things for some time befor it started to 'tick'. You see, we all have specific circumtances in our natal charts, but the chart is a living thing, and going through space and time we cover pretty much all of the possible positions, aspects and situations, evolving, changing and expiriencing diferent states of consciousness. For example, you are never only a 12we Sun in your life, but that is your most natural state, do you get what i mean ? I find astrology the most beautiful and precise psychological/energetical tool, for me there is not less than a goldmine of value for exploration, but is not easy, not the last. This branch of science, for what i belive it is, is misused and banalized to such extent that is a cultural crime, and neverthless, those in charge of the world, the most wealthy, sober and proper puritans who sentenced it to such fame are the ones that make most of use of this 'pagan' legacy. Then, who is the ku-ku Mad Hatter here, huh ?

One very nice insight i gained some time ago treats the theme of good economy in direct regard to good ecology, allmost like a linear equation. We can pretty fairly draw a direct parallel on the global economy/ecology situation. We exploited goods for the time being, and now have resouces issues, fuel, wather, food ns so on, while the garbage piles up on the other side. We have whole cities or city areas rised above the garbage areas, by people in need who exploit those garbage as their own means of existence. And what seems obvious we need some certain time to learn and aknowledge. Whatever becomes a waiste becomes a problem, wether is that people, emotions, thoughts, materials of various kind, and been/not been responsable allways fires back. There is no such thing as waist of anything, only a choice of transformation, for bether or for worse. I find this discourse most rightfully aplyable on the 12/6 house axis situation. If you dont treat wisely the ecology part, dont know how to manage the resources, there's no way to play economy on the long run. Economy was basicly intended to bridge, mobilize and close the gaps between the needs and what was avaliable at the given time, it was an ethereal medium to transport the value of that what was not easely phisicaly transportable, it was means but became the end. Economy came as a result of cooperation but instead of suporting it come to consume. Many theorists have sentenced capitalism to doom long ago, starting with Marx. By now, we all are well informed about how our customs of existence are basicly wrong and can pretty soon fail to suport us. Without mutual acceptance we have no cooperaiton and fail in having control over those resources, what means having no power to intervene. For having cooperation we must meet as equals, but fairly, we dont know how to do that. To eaven knock on the 12wes door, we have to pass issues of seclusion and liberation first, and it's not a mather where one individual opinion can be voiced, that is basicly judgement. What it requires is a colective consensus.

Coming back on the knot of the thread lol, sory i got in severe OT when we have judgement, we have basicly a one-sided voicing of oppinion situation, that's the bottom. Rushing to cover the problematic parts, in the end we have no real resolution at all. That's something that can be obtained only by consensus of all the parts involved, and not otherwise, where, backfiring and the avenge of ones 'rightfulness' is an immanent part of that kind of 'deal'. Why is that, diplomacy, is the most cherished branch of foreigin politics ? And we do know why, but we fail to apply this principle on our intern colective politics. With the 12we, we're speaking about the colective part of our beings and lives. This kind of dialogue can be internal or external, neverthless, the 12we make here no distincition. All that there is, is interconnected. We are colective and individual beings both. We live trough the colective, the colective live through us, there is no such thing as a clear cut, what is mine or, what is ours, in log therms it becomes obvious that such division is not advicable. Having an equal standpoint of both is prerogative for a healthy 12we house situation. Finding a way to fuse those two together is the 12we house life mission.

You mentioned about meditation. Recently I thought that it would be really healthy to try some meditation, but actually I have no idea how to do it. I'm also a bit worried if meditation can't somehow go wrong and have a negative effect if done improperly.

You're dead right So in begining, you have a teacher that supervises you for the first 3 months. When you learn how to do it corectly, you are free with one-man practice. You dont have to aply mantras or, god knows what to meditate corectly, it's basicly first, a mather of mental hgyene and then you start to 'acumulate'.

[bittermoon]

oh dear. i have mars in aquarius in the 12th house. i am not violent by any means (cancer sun, pisces rising perhaps?) but i do know that i can put up with a lot of things for a long time but if i keep on getting pushed, eventually i will explode. and it's not pretty.

[reallypisces]

Athene,
perhaps I sometimes really misunderstand what you're saying. I have a tendency to sometimes take too literally what people's words.
I think I see what you mean by saying that our charts are not static. People change at the same time somehow remaining themselves just like we have only one natal chart, but many transit, progression and solar return charts.
By the way this year has been very disturbing since about a month before my birthday (I guess it's about the time wheh the new solar return chart starts to "work") and in my solar return chart for this year I have 0 degrees Sun-Uranus conjunction. I'm faced with problems that I've never had to face before. Although it hasn't been pleasant, I guess there is some good in it. In any case if there's a situation that pushes me further away from a state of a mere vegetable, it can't be that bad. One of the difficulties is also connected with exactly the problem of diplomacy and willingness to seek compromise between different views. I won't go into details, but from the experience of the last months I can agree that it would be wonderful if people could be less judgemental and more willing to listen to each other and perhaps to see the positive side in others rather than taking sides and offending each other.

Sorry for my a bit clumsy style of writing, I'm a bit sleepy and not used for a while to write in English. Goodnight.

[Claire19]

I agree in the main with what you say. Mercury indicates harsh words also.

[Athene]

Originally Posted by reallypisces

Athene,
perhaps I sometimes really misunderstand what you're saying. I have a tendency to sometimes take too literally what people's words.
I think I see what you mean by saying that our charts are not static. People change at the same time somehow remaining themselves just like we have only one natal chart, but many transit, progression and solar return charts.

Well, you can blame me for the same thing, cose neither i am native of english language and have it sometimes hard conveying thoughts eloquently enough I think my bad is that i hadnt make enough clear where was i adressing you personaly, and where was i speaking about the wheel in general. I'll come back on your chart now.

Actually I'm not sure if it's really in the 11th house because my birth time might not be very correct and it wouldn't take much time for it to be actually in the 12th.

Giving the Mercury/NN situation, i think you'll most easely adjust your chart if you pay attention to the Mars/Jupiter/AC situation. Jupiter touching the AC has a tendency to increase corporeal mass, what would be likely to happen in a Taurus rising (with a distinctive Taurean neck area, if nothing, in comparision to your genetic background). If your rising degree is stituated in Gemini you'll probably lack in what's called 'animal magnetism' and having Jupiter here you could be of tall stature too. Then, how do you meet others ? Are they more of Scorpionic or Sagitter kind ? As Mercury is the most touch part of your chart, playing with those other factors can help you ratfy your Mercury too

The Sun in the 12th - that I definitely have. It seems to me that this has put me into a position of constant puzzlement about the world and my place in it.

The basic requirement of a 12we house Sun is to be enough versatile to meet the various aspects of life that we intersect with. This kind of Sun is of multiple facets, and it has to play multiple roles to remain in tune, to be balanced. Internaly the focus is unanimous, but externaly it can seem otherwise. This house playground is a wide one and mirroring the colective situation, warious parts or aspects of life can be dislocated or not connected, or the expiriences can be of such diversity that are not easely putted in one basket, or reconciled to one-life, one-man story. This Sun is more than any other Sun, at mercy of the colective influences, and more than any other, it mirrors the true picture back, as the most impersonal type. Those with this kind of Sun took over the call to be the witnesses of what's hapening around, and the kind of acceptance they extend thoward life make their eyes meet manny of the 'dirty loundry' that is usually covered and hided from the rest of us. This really isnt one easy Sun, but it can be the wisest of all.

Besides a weak waning Venus-Pluto trine I have no personal planets aspecting Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto

Yeah, that's one interesting situation you have here. Basicly, it looks like you're not binded in focus, emotion, expression and integration to generational influences when you voice that Mercury/NN of yours, from your individual 12we Sun perspective. Thus not having to depend on higher directives, your basic drive enables you fairly well (the Mars/Jupiter situation, and let me tell you, it cant get any bether than that ) to carry your tasks. But, take a look on the dispositor of that busybody Mercury of yours, it's Neptune, in a tight conjunction with Saturn and the 'leftover' Uranus too. And, allmost as a joke, your Mercury directly depends on them for it's means of expression ! A planet-dispositor situation is something like a child-parent situation, the first heavily depends on the second for it's chit-money . .

I'm very often in a situation where I lack time to finish some task and I realize that it's partly because I've started too late and in a too non-organized way.

Blame that non-organized Mercury of yours and on that

It is rather that I have somehow used to a kind of lack of mental discipline

fact

The Saturn/Neptune natal conjunction means that you are provided of (generationaly) and in need of extreme structure, regarding our Mercury talk . . . .Then, there's nothing less needed than to be used about as mental indiscipline The cusp of your 6th is in Virgo and here you wuldnt have to have problems, but your 6/12we axis covers eaven 3 constellations ! That al least means that you'll have plenty to learn, evolve and do in those areas.

By the way this year has been very disturbing since about a month before my birthday (I guess it's about the time wheh the new solar return chart starts to "work") and in my solar return chart for this year I have 0 degrees Sun-Uranus conjunction. I'm faced with problems that I've never had to face before. Although it hasn't been pleasant, I guess there is some good in it. In any case if there's a situation that pushes me further away from a state of a mere vegetable, it can't be that bad.

You're dead on The Sun/Uranus cj is indeed a wake up call, and rather than blood now, you'll have pure electricity spinning throug your veins lol I would advice you to be as much productive as you can this year, depend less on others, give as much as you can of your own piece of 'genius' to the world and you'll gain the support needed in the most natural way. Wonted/unwanted, you're regarded as 'one of those eccentric' time ahead.



Back on the thread, giving it all in all, emotions are chainlike phenomenon, mirroring through the system in dynamic selfregulative and the alpha-factor of cohesion, beyond the purely material (the Moon). Thus, when we speak about agressivenes and harmful outcomes in regard the 12we sector, be it the house, the sign Pisces or it's lord Neptune, we do have to keep in mind that those are of colective nature and allways work through a consensus. There you cant have a one sided deal, cose, from what you are working is a(ll) shared (life) standpoint, there is no just 'I', the only 'I' we have is the 'I' in 'We' and the 'We' in 'Life'. That is why unbalanced symptomes as agressiveness rise from a shared edge, they are not selfproduced. So, it's all a mather of what kind of a deal we have with our 12we house, what means, with eachother, with life in general. Do we need to produce and take on the roles of renegates, outkasts, psychos, enemies, or not?

As the things are now, is a long long walk to construct a propper kind of consensus, but let's remind ourself of one crutial thing . . the 12we is "that" house that lays at the bottom of the 1st and infuses it with the energy required . . do you see what i see ? Having an unbalanced colective results in having eventually unbalanced individuals, it is as simply as that.

[reallypisces]

Well I think I do have pretty Taurean neck area. There’s no doubt my ascendant is Taurus, I only can’t tell how close it is to my Jupiter-Mars conjunction. The chance of gaining much weight does not please me, I’m sort of small size, although I’m not really slim. Actually my body does not resemble much any of my female relative’s bodies. Also I’m not very tall. Well, one of my best friends is a very Scorpionic Sagittarius. Two of my other very good friends are Geminis. So I definely feel the influence of both Taurus and Gemini, it’s just hard to say to what extent. Another thing. I feel very much like Leo Moon, althoug my Moon is exactly on the cusp. Although I’m not very physically active (actually I often feel tired, perhaps it could be because of my 12th house Sun?) there are moments when my emotions get really ‘fiery’ and then I feel that nothing can stop me if I’ve decided to do something. Although I supposedly have no planets in fire signs I rather feel a lack of air than fire.
About the personal/collective issues. It seems to me that one of my problems is how to cope with my tendency to live in “my own little world”. I use to do that till something happens that shakes me emotionally. I need an emotional involvment to be motivated to do something. And if I’m motivated it seems to me that I can do just about anything (perhaps it’s my Jupiter-Mars conj sextile with my Moon).

[Astrodawn]

Originally Posted by Fragoso

But... WHAT IS THE MOST VIOLENT ASPECT?



1. Mars in hard aspect to Uranus (It creates an explosive anger )
2. Mars in hard aspect to Pluto (It creates a sadistic person )
3. Mars in hard aspect to Sun (It creates a tyrannical person )
4. Mars in hard aspect to Moon (Volatile feelings )
5. Mars in hard aspect to Mercury (I violent mind )
6. Mercury in hard aspect to Pluto (An obsessive thought )
7. Mars in hard aspect to Neptune (A samurai person )
8. Sun in hard aspect to Uranus (A misanthropic person )
9. Sun in hard aspect to Pluto (A possessive soul )
10. Mars in Hard aspect to Jupiter (No law )

If you know a person if one of this aspescts then that person must be violent. For sure!

I disagree that the person must be violent with those aspects!!

I myself have a high % of those listed and should be by your theory be a crazy but Im a non violent peace loving person.
Im a strong person with drive and determination but violence no!!

Mars conjunct uranus
Mars conjunct pluto
Moon conjunct uranus/pluto (wide though)
Mars square mercury
mercury square pluto
mercury square uranus

I would think that an uncontrolled anger that is ego driven enough to cause violence and hurt would be more Aries/mars with squares going out to Cancer.

[Vagabondgirl]

Originally Posted by Fragoso

Hi everybody .

I wanted to know your opinion about this thematic: 'What is the most violent aspect'?

MY OPINION:

1. Mars in hard aspect to Uranus (It creates an explosive anger )
2. Mars in hard aspect to Pluto (It creates a sadistic person )
3. Mars in hard aspect to Sun (It creates a tyrannical person )
4. Mars in hard aspect to Moon (Volatile feelings )
5. Mars in hard aspect to Mercury (I violent mind )
6. Mercury in hard aspect to Pluto (An obsessive thought )
7. Mars in hard aspect to Neptune (A samurai person )
8. Sun in hard aspect to Uranus (A misanthropic person )
9. Sun in hard aspect to Pluto (A possessive soul )
10. Mars in Hard aspect to Jupiter (No law )

WHAT ABOUT YOU?
What is your opinion about this?
Do you have any of these bad connections? If yes, are you violent?
Or… Do you know someone with these aspects?
Do you disagree?


Well, Tell us what you think

Fragoso

I have these aspects, and I cant say Im an angrier person than anyone else. Quite the contrary in fact.... Many people tell me that it takes much to make me angry and that Im always smiling when others would usually get stressed or angry. I also feel myself that I have a cold temper and not a hot one!

Mars in the 6th house is squaring Uranus in the 7th by about 5 degrees orb, so maybe not so strong? On the other hand I have had sudden bleedings and fever onset a few times durning my life, which I would typically associate with Mars in the 6th and Uranus.

Also I have mercury conjunct pluto in scorpio in the 6th. The only thing related I can think of is that I sometimes now and then suddenly wake up at night or in the morning with a bad thought about a bad experience from the past that I cant manage to get off my mind. Feels poisonous in a way... But after some time I fall asleep again and its forgotten

Moon conjunct mars (wide orb). Not quite sure what it means in my life. I have it in a stellium with venus too, and I think venus is perhaps stronger in the chart and in a tighter orb between moon and mars.