Small 5th House and childlessness

beatnikgirl · #1 06-11-2010, 05:45 PM

astro_2gw_01_beatnikgirl.59003.10492.jpg
I have a small 5th house which means transits never stay very long in there, I also have only hard separating aspects from Pluto to Pallas and Mercury/Chiron Sesquiquadrate applying to Pallas which is the only thing I have in my 5th house. Is this the reason I have had problems finding partners willing to have children with me and then later health problems that have delayed me having children. I was born with a heart condition I had surgery as a child but this did mean I had to delay pregnancy.
I am desperate to become a mother, anyone who knows me knows how great i am with kids and doesn't understand why I'm still childless. My most recent work involves working with families and teachers as a Childrens/Educational Books Buyer and retail administrator.
I know using other house systems other than Placidus make things look healthier, but prediction wise I haven't found any other charts to be as accurate taking into consideration major events that have occurred in my life which fit better.
So is there any hope, I try to stay positive but the more charts I run the least likely this seems ever happening, it breaks my heart, I keep asking the universe to show me why an earth it would give me such a mothering instinct and deny opportunity to benefit in anyway myself is this some horrible karma thing.
Does anyone know any way of working through hard aspects so I might at least have the privilege of being an adoptive parent.
I'm an only child I only have my mother and granny as my existing biological relatives, my partner is also an only child so this adds even more to the misery of been a childless couple.
I see some difficult transits occurring ahead and I'm at my wits end to know how to keep going, we are hoping to proceed with an application for adoption but am I just in denial. Sometimes I hate astrology it used to offer me comfort and deeper understanding now all it seems me to do is add to my disappointment confirm the horrible fatalistic nature life.
I know the stars impel and do not compel but it seems some things are harder than others to ever overcome.

Sistermoon · #2 06-11-2010, 07:30 PM

If you'd like to hear about my experiences with a "barren" 5th house and adoption, please feel free to send me a personal message. I con completely empathize with how you feel.

astrologer50 · #3 06-11-2010, 08:10 PM

can I suggest you take off all the asteriods as I can't really get a picture of your chart it's soooo messy.

Firstly, for a proper evaluation you need to post your chart, pref with progressions and transits on same wheel found in extended chart selection. Reduce the ratio of orbs to 80%, select smallest image size 63% on picture, choose Equal house system, right mouse click and select 'save target pic as' and save to hard drive then upload here

You have calculated your chart using the default on astro.com of placidus and I use Equal House system and am a modern astrologer. Lots of people that come into Astrology get their free charts calculated at www.astro.com and the default ‘house system’ used is Placidus and think that’s just the norm and all that there is……..BUT that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can change the default on astro.com in Extended Chart selection to Equal house and a few more.

Throughout the forums but mainly in natal astrology there are two main branches Placidus (unequal size houses) v Equal House (whereby each house is same size) but lots more……. For more information on these go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)#Description
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm

It's only with study and research will you be able to assess where your planets are deposited and in which houses... thus see which 'glove fits'

Just look at those huge 1/7houses it's very skewed

Mercury would be late 2nd conj 3rd house cusp and considered more appropriate in 3rd
Planets conjunct a house cusp
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033

sun would be late 3rd conj 4th house cusp, saturn 4th, mars/venus 5th, pluto 8th and uranus 9th, moon/neptune 10th and jupiter conj 12th

Transiting Saturn is currently conj natal pluto, I had this in 7th when I was first married and pregnant
"The main theme tends to be facing responsibility in the face of corruption. This is a time when you have to concentrate your interests more deeply and narrowly, most often because you are going through a financial burden or some other kind of shortage. This is also a time to get rid of any rules and regulations that do not adequately meet the demands that you are experiencing. Many of the habits that you have grown used to, simply do not apply anymore. You may have to live with austere circumstances for a while. The authorities may not be dependable, or may be corrupt."
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/tra...-cj-pluto.html

Your moon is important as it's a singleton ie: only planet in water, which your chart lacks this element
Singleton planets
“If a planet happens to be the only one in an element, quality, or house type, that planet is a Singleton and it can funnel all of the “energy” of the horoscope. This planet is often the most important one in the horoscope. In other words, if you just interpret the position of this one planet by sign, house, and aspect, you will get to the “heart of the horoscope”. The effect is the same as if that planet were the only one on one side of the chart.”
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/13.0Singletons.htm
http://www.astrologyclub.org
http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/singleton.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2334.html
(There is a book out by Shirley Lyons Meier, "Elemental Voids, More than Meets the Eye", which gives a good discussion of missing elements.) The Inferior Function can be a source of great motivation and creative expression.
http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/singletons/intro/singleton_intro.htm

Lack of elements http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18077
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/elements.html
http://www.astrology.aryabhatt.com/Astrology_Elements.asp
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/EmptyElement12.1.htm
http://www.astrologyclub.org/article.../inferior2.htm

Mars in 5th suggests male and quick birth (I have mars in gemini and can vouch for this) venus in 5th suggests female. So one of each then

tikana · #4 06-11-2010, 09:46 PM

Hi
your 5th house is okay.. more north or south you go crazier disturbution of the houses you have. You should run a few charts on people born near the poles.
I find that charts for nordic people work beautifully with Porphyry. i had some interesitng luck with horary that were run from from norway.

Forecasting a pregnancy can be tricky but not always the case
I tend to find Eclipses usually aspecting Ruler of 5th house, Moon *naturally ruling mothers and babies* and often times Eclipse either solar or lunar would be sitting in your 5th house and by transits i would be looking at slow moving planet making a major aspect to both ruler of 5th house, Moon and aspecting your asce.

Cheers
T

beatnikgirl · #5 06-12-2010, 11:26 AM

Ok as requested I have taken some of the less relevant asteroids off my chart, and decreased the orb and included current transits.
All advice and insights would be welcome, I've kept placidus house system, I found this has been the most accurate in predicting events in my past, Pluto oppostion sun my grandfathers death, Chiron Oppostion Sun hospitalization with a life threatenig heart virus, Saturn Opposite Sun depression and life threatening illness of my ex partner when he was suffering with TB.

All advice would be helpful
Many Thanks
astro_beatnikgirl_transits.jpg

astrologer50 · #6 06-12-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Pluto oppostion sun my grandfathers death, Chiron Oppostion Sun hospitalization with a life threatenig heart virus, Saturn Opposite Sun depression and life threatening illness of my ex partner when he was suffering with TB.

Pluto opp sun could have predicted that whatever 'house system' you prefer. the only difference is certain planets *move houses* and alter the flavour and interpretation of the *natal* All transits are internal things until or unless the Asc or MC get involved and these two points 'don't change' whatever house system you work with. Perhaps some more research into planets in houses may help

house meanings
http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/houses.php
http://www.astrologyzine.com/what-is-a-house-in-astrology.shtml
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/EmptyElement12.1.htm
http://www.dkfoundation.co.uk/dkfoundation/BookKarma&NewDirections.htm
http://www.gotohoroscope.com/houses-in-chart.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_house2_e.htm
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houses.htm

Natal chart aspects
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sunaspects.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects2.html
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/planetsaspectsastrology.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_aspect
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_aspect_e.htm
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/aspectsreference.htm
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/aspectssun.htm
http://astrologynotes.org/wiki/Sun_aspects

planets in houses
http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/planetsinhouses.php

Planets conjunct a house cusp
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033

I would still like to see your progressed chart along with transits, to see how you have developed and grown as a person..

Claire19 · #7 06-13-2010, 05:59 AM

I dont use minor aspects or asteroids, fixed stars and I use whole sign or equal house so there is no small or large house. I will have a look at that sort of chart and get back to you.

Okay your 5th is ruled by Mercury and Venus Mars conjunct in Gemini there does indicate children and perhaps twins or two close together, a son for sure if it were to happen......There must be other problems perhaps. It may be your partner if you have one. Saturn makes a weak opposition to Moon and the 4th and 10th houses of parenting. That may be the key. It could be the fathering.... Saturn is also opposite Neptune in the 10th. Jupiter in the house of adoptions or stepchildren and ruled by Sagittarius is a double whammy and maybe looking into a foreign adoption procedure or even just contributing to the welfare of a needy child or children. THis is backed up the wide good aspects from Mars to Uranus in the 9th. You have several planets through the 5th right now but they are not making any significant aspects.

Others use different house methods and so have a different analysis.

astrologer50 · #8 06-13-2010, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr. farr

In my use of whole sign, this natal chart's 5th house holds Venus/Mars (conjunt) along with Saturn: all under Gemini; the 8th house (conception) is under Virgo, a quite "barren" sign: to my little mind, these placements account very well (from the astrological point of view) for the difficulties you have experienced in this area.

However, please do not get the idea that these problems are "fated" for life: progressions will bring varying astrological influences to the fore, which, with correct timing, can be applied to obtain fulfillment of your desires in this matter.

These old traditional views really are outdated. I have Virgo ruling my8th and Jupiter retrograde in 8th square mars, with just mars in 5th and have been *highly* fertile, at the drop of a hat

mars in 5th quick births to

lillyjgc · #9 06-13-2010, 08:37 AM

These old traditional views really are outdated. I have Virgo ruling my8th and Jupiter retrograde in 8th square mars, with just mars in 5th and have been *highly* fertile, at the drop of a hat

Well Astrologer50-we only have your word for that as you have declined to post your chart-yet you keep using it as proof to validate your own ideas.
I don't believe that the h8 has involvement in conception.
BTW, how many children do *you* have?
Lilly

[changed comment to make it clearer that this is a personal opinion and not the opinion of everyone on the forum - Moderator]

lillyjgc · #10 06-13-2010, 09:22 AM

Well, I go by William Lilly and he makes no mention of birth or conception being in any way h8 related.Dr Farr, for the sake of advancing my knowledge, can you point me to sources that explain the h8's involvement in pregnancy?
Cheers
Lilly

dr. farr · #11 06-13-2010, 09:56 AM

+The connection of the 8th to conception and pregnancy is through its affinity to the sexual/generative organs: we find this affinity mentioned in Cornell (Encyclopedia of Medical Astrology), and we find various disorders of generation/reproductive organs listed as possible 8th house pathologies.

+In the older literature (Cornell is from the 20th century), we find the affinity of the sexual organs connected to the 8th house in Al-Biruni (Elements of Astrology) in his table of house affinities; he there mentions this same 8th house connection with the sexual organs as also being among "the opinions of the Hindus"; Al-Biruni ascribes a "female" quality to the 8th house, as well as the elemental quality of "hot and moist"

It is from these references I have taken the concept of a "secondary" relationship of the 8th house, to conception and pregnancy.

Note: not wishing to incite controversy or disputes, I have deleted my previous three postings in this thread.

beatnikgirl · #12 06-13-2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrologer50

Pluto opp sun could have predicted that whatever 'house system' you prefer. the only difference is certain planets *move houses* and alter the flavour and interpretation of the *natal*

Those transits occurred involving my 2nd and 8th house though that is why I'm inclined to believe Placidus unfortunately works with my chart, perhaps there is a way to change ones consciousness and align with another house system but given the heavy Uranus Opp Uranus conj Chiron/Mercury Aries/Libra transit I've got coming up in a couple of years I don't think I'd really want to have Uranus moved into my 8th house.
Unless it was gonna mean I developed a radically different view point to sexuality and that triggered that Chiron/Mercury Trine MC Healing ability so many people have suggested within my chart, which I'm yet to experience.

I would still like to see your progressed chart along with transits, to see how you have developed and grown as a person..

Here is my progressed chart with transits.
astro_52gw_01_beatnikgirl_2010613_hp-1.37586.14864.jpg

Inconjunct · #13 06-13-2010, 11:29 AM

beatnikgirl, I would tend to hold off on putting too much weight on the interpretation of asteroids. Their meanings are still "works in process" and certainly, their influence in something as important as pregnancy can't be judged with any certainty whatsoever. Far better to stick with the traditional (and newly traditional - Uranus etc) luminaries and planets.

Also, as you acknowledge, the stars can't compel, they only suggest, and nobody is fated by their planets to be childless. I like Liz Greene's idea of looking to the Sun as the indicator of where we can heal/deal with the difficult parts of our charts. Your Sun is in Taurus, in the 2nd house. This suggests to me that healing, for you, can be found in bringing yourself right back down to earth, in drawing on all those wonderful Taurean qualities such as patience, pragmatism, practicality and persistence and in dealing with tangibles - what is in the here and now that you can experience with your five senses rather than focusing on what may not yet come to be. It also suggests that you need to rediscover your own sense of self-worth and value, independent of anything or anybody else.

lillyjgc · #14 06-13-2010, 01:34 PM

Thankyou Dr Farr.
I can appreciate the eighth house's connection to sexual organs, in Medical astrology at least, but I personally haven't found it to be relevant in pregnancy charts.But, if it works for you.....
Thanks for that info-I'll follow up with some further reading.
Cheers
Lilly

astrologer50 · #15 06-13-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillyjgc

These old traditional views really are outdated. I have Virgo ruling my8th and Jupiter retrograde in 8th square mars, with just mars in 5th and have been *highly* fertile, at the drop of a hat

Well Astrologer50-we only have your word for that as you have declined to post your chart-yet you keep using it as proof to validate your own ideas.
BTW, how many children do *you* have?
Lilly

Lilly I have two sons, 1gemini 1 Aquarius both very quick birth, mars gemini 5th Jupiter retro in 8th - highly fertile, in fact my first husband even got me pregnant with a 'controceptive coil' fitted

[deleted response to personal opinion comment - Moderator]

lillyjgc · #16 06-13-2010, 02:04 PM

Astrologer50-what planet rules your fifth house and what aspects does that ruler make?
Why would jupiter in h8 be connected to your children?
What planet rules your eighth?
I hope you can answer so that we can assist students here to experiment using different methods.
Lilly

astrologer50 · #17 06-13-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillyjgc

Astrologer50-what planet rules your fifth house and what aspects does that ruler make?
Why would jupiter in h8 be connected to your children?
What planet rules your eighth?
I hope you can answer so that we can assist students here to experiment using different methods.
Lilly

I have jupiter virgo retro(8th) close trine natally to ruler of 5th Mercury AND mars in Gemini IN 5th.Mars does square Jupiter in 8th natally. I have two sons, one gemini, one Aquarius and one miscarriage between the two. Labour was very quick - I think traditional mars in gemini is not meant to be that fertile, so how come I got caught SO quickly age 20, has to be something else....
So I have answered your question - kindly answer mine?

The Eighth House
“The eighth house covers sex, death, and other people's resources. Most beginning astrologers question how these areas of life are related, and the explanation offers insight into some of life's most intriguing activities. The lives of others impact our lives on a moment-to-moment basis. Every human interaction engages the mental, emotional, material or spiritual resources of at least one other person. Sexual response and sexual expression form a fundamental area for us to cultivate the spiritual connection with others through the physical connection.”
http://www.llewellyn.com/encyclopedia/article/130
“deepest fears, obsessions, denied dreams, ability to love and care for children, sexual hang ups, obsession/relationship with money, need to exploit others, length and breadth of vanity, secret desire to rule the world, {Or at least, your world and everyone in it} and every religious neurotic tendency you could ever invent, relate to, dispose or crave. According to traditional astrology the 8th house is the precarious domain of sex, death and money. But, it has been my experience that the 8th house goes much deeper than these obvious realities”
http://www.articlesbase.com/astrology-articles/face-the-boogey-man-your-incessant-spectator-mind-and-how-it-works-8th-house-deal-949018.html
“One way to read a birth chart is to start with the Eighth House, where conception begins. During the nine months of pregnancy, the cycle travels from the beginning of the Eighth House to the ascendant, which represents the moment of birth, the baby's first breath”
http://www2.canada.com/topics/lifestyle/astrology/health/pregnancy/index.html

astro09 · #18 06-13-2010, 04:06 PM

Taking into consideration that the 8thH rules the reproductive organs, it would make sense to find functional problem with them when there are stressful aspects related to this House. Dysfunctional sex organs can lead to conception problem and increasing the potential to have zero chances to procreate. So, I can see how the 8th H plays a secondary role here.

On the other hand, when it comes to conception, I also like to look at the fourth H and the moon. Looking at the chart, the moon conj Neptune and opposing Saturn speaks to me of problems, adding to that is Saturn in the 4th conj the 5th H cusp (already in hard aspect to the moon). Also, with mercury, ruler of both 4th and 5thH and coruler of the 8th H, squaring Jupiter an inconjunct Pluto in a critical degree (natural ruler of the 8th) create even more difficulties. Sorry beatnikgirl, I don’t remember if you mentioned it, if you can answer, do you have any ailment with your reproductive organs?

Catatonia · #19 06-13-2010, 04:12 PM

It actually looks like you'll have quite a few kids either via natural birth or adoption.

Catatonia

beatnikgirl · #20 06-13-2010, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astro09

Taking into consideration that the 8thH rules the reproductive organs, it would make sense to find functional problem with them when there are stressful aspects related to this House. Dysfunctional sex organs can lead to conception problem and increasing the potential to have zero chances to procreate. So, I can see how the 8th H plays a secondary role here.

On the other hand, when it comes to conception, I also like to look at the fourth H and the moon. Looking at the chart, the moon conj Neptune and opposing Saturn speaks to me of problems, adding to that is Saturn in the 4th conj the 5th H cusp (already in hard aspect to the moon). Also, with mercury, ruler of both 4th and 5thH and coruler of the 8th H, squaring Jupiter an inconjunct Pluto in a critical degree (natural ruler of the 8th) create even more difficulties. Sorry beatnikgirl, I don’t remember if you mentioned it, if you can answer, do you have any ailment with your reproductive organs?

No, I had fertility test no reason to see any issues in that area apart obviously from my age, all I have is issues with my heart I was born with wholes in my heart I had surgery at 2 but I still have a leaking valve mitral valve prolapse some other slight structural issues. I had to wait for a while till me cardiologist was happy to agree to going ahead with a pregnancy this was while i was symptomatic with extremely low blood pressure mainly because it was unlikely for me to carry a baby to full term.
I did suffer with a hormone imbalance that gave me sort of pregnancy like symptoms morning sickness and bloating, but this was related to stress and subsided over a year ago

astrologer50 · #21 06-17-2010, 09:56 AM

Beatnik,

having venus conj mars to me takes precendent firstly then these two square Pluto in 8th (Equal house system) could suggest surgery caesarian birth or IVF treatment.

Mercury ruler of 5th makes 3applying aspects before it leaves your sign (Aries) and two more if you count inconjuncts. Pluto the planet of death and transformation does seem to suggest you will be transformed by children (or creative endevours) when it happens.

A similar thread for research then --
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...t=14598&page=2

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

carol Rushmans book above

beatnikgirl · #22 06-17-2010, 06:55 PM

[QUOTE=astrologer50;214305]Beatnik,

having venus conj mars to me takes precendent firstly then these two square Pluto in 8th (Equal house system) could suggest surgery caesarian birth or IVF treatment.

Mercury ruler of 5th makes 3applying aspects before it leaves your sign (Aries) and two more if you count inconjuncts. Pluto the planet of death and transformation does seem to suggest you will be transformed by children (or creative endevours) when it happens.

Yes that Pluto worries me greatly, intuitively looking at my chart and my partners chart it is death and the near death possibility that worries me deeply . Using placidus House system the next time anything stays for any lengthy time through my 5th house, Saturn is moving slowly making in opposition to my Sun, which as witnessed in my past experience involves death or personal near death experiences. My partner has saturn in his 7th House during the same period I have Saturn moving through 8th saturn makes a sq to his Saturn, I can't deny this doesn't exactly look healthy for my mortality.Of course if I was going through adoption proceedings I'm not sure how that scenrio would pan out, if I had a positive influences in the 5th how would that 8th house saturn manifest.

astrologer50 · #23 06-17-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatnikgirl

Yes that Pluto worries me greatly, intuitively looking at my chart and my partners chart it is death and the near death possibility that worries me deeply . Using placidus House system the next time anything stays for any lengthy time through my 5th house, Saturn is moving slowly making in opposition to my Sun, which as witnessed in my past experience involves death or personal near death experiences. My partner has saturn in his 7th House during the same period I have Saturn moving through 8th saturn makes a sq to his Saturn, I can't deny this doesn't exactly look healthy for my mortality.Of course if I was going through adoption proceedings I'm not sure how that scenrio would pan out, if I had a positive influences in the 5th how would that 8th house saturn manifest.

My goodness, seems you are reading way tooo much into this aspect here, think of it as 'symbolic' NOT literal. Nobody can or should predict death and personally I don't think that's possible either. There is NO signature or formula for 'death, marriage, births' in my book just possibilities, no guarantees. I know horary believe 'they' can answer any question you throw at them.

BobZemco · #24 06-18-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatnikgirl

Yes that Pluto worries me greatly, intuitively looking at my chart and my partners chart it is death and the near death possibility that worries me deeply.

First of all, Pluto is not the "Death Planet" in your chart. It is in my chart, but then my chart isn't your chart, and I have a long while before it comes round to conjunct my 4th House Cusp.

Secondly, if you intend to study astrology further, then you need to learn that there are three kinds of death: physical, mental and spiritual, and they're all good.

Physical death could be the end of a relationship (whether that relationship is with a partner, a child, a parent, or a friend) or a job that's bringing you down, but you're too blind to see that or too afraid to take the risk and make the break.

Finally, I tried to look at your chart, but it's so full of garbage it gives me a headache. What I can see is that you have Gemini on the 5th House Cusp. That is traditionally a barren sign, however it is in the late degrees of Gemini, which if anything would indicate that if you have children, it would be later in life, which at this point appears to bear out.

28 Gemini is Saturn's place, so Saturn is actually your friend, not your enemy. Mars is also happy there.

As far as predicting child-birth, transits are only one of the 3 tools you need. The other two are your progressed planets, and of course your natal chart.

astrologer50 · #25 06-18-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

That is traditionally a barren sign, however it is in the late degrees of Gemini, which if anything would indicate that if you have children, it would be later in life, which at this point appears to bear out.

Like I said in post 18. I have gemini ruling 5th with mars in there and have been highly fertile!!
I suggest you take the Modern astrologers view rather than old Trad view