Home roots IC

[astrologer50]

My IC is in Gemini and there was always lots and lots of comings and goings. My parents were hoteliers for 23years and there were always strangers sitting in my TV room, so talking to strangers was and has never been a problem. My IC falls in 5th house (Equal house system) which also covers self employment, which I am and have always wanted....

How do you identify with your IC/home roots, obviously if you have a planet conj IC say Pluto it can suggest some kind of abuse, or mars poss someone having bit of temper. So perhaps just the IC sign alone like my Gemini.

Gemini is restless, talkative, perfers superficiality rather than deep and meaningful. The service industry is full of gemini's. Funnily enough I don't have contact or anything to do with siblings though, I have two older brothers who never made any effort with me or I with them. There has always been lots of activity in my home roots with children their friends, lodgers, partners and quite a few house moves espec from 16 to 22 always trying to better my home roots by upgrading.

So, how do you identify with your IC?

[katydid]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

Scorpio IC conjunct Pluto. Don't really indentify at all. I'm stuck here. It's not a travel family.

/JJ

Hey Jenna,
I can relate.

I have Leo on the IC with Pluto in the 4th, it being the apex of a t-square with
merc/jupiter.
Pluto is conjunct the SN as well.

When I was about 3 or 4, my mother packed the 3 of us kids up, and moved back in with her parents and her brothers and sisters, because she found out about Dad and his secretary.
We lived in that big family until my mother happily remarried a few years later.However, the PLUTO part was that my grandafather was dying of lung cancer, and that is one reason my Mom movede back home. She was the oldest of the 8 kids, and she wanted to help her Mother.
So there was Death/rebirth, secrets and turmoil and intense stuff swirling about my early home life.
Also, I was the victim of sexual abuse at the hands of a teenaged uncle, but later found out that he was being abused by a priest, so he was confused. :crying

[Arian Maverick]

This is a great topic for a thread, astrologer50--one I don't recall seeing in a while, if at all.

I'm particularly fascinated about the influence of the major angles because I am uncertain of the signs in which my own major angles reside; a three-minute inaccuracy of my recorded time of birth would result in the shift of my angles from cardinal signs to mutable signs. My IC is located either in late Gemini or early Cancer; either way, Chiron is Cancer is closely conjunct my IC, and it forms a relatively tight square aspect with its ruler, the Moon conjunct my Ascendant. As this configuration may suggest, I've been slow to sever the emotional umbilical cord with home--much slower than my first house Aries stellium may otherwise indicate.

This trait may argue for a Cancer IC, but I feel it would similarly be appropriate to have a Gemini IC because my parents took my brother and me on many short and long-distance trips when we were children.

Can anyone describe what a typical Cancer IC family life would be like?

Arian Maverick

[smilingsteph]

I have on my IC mercury in the third sun in the fourth and they are 4 degrees away from eachother in Gemini.
My mom gave me to aunt and uncle to be raised, so I grew up with 1 biological sister and two cousins which in my terms were my sisters. I had 8 aunts and uncles always coming around to pick us up to take us on little adventures.
I always had a bag packed and was sent to stay with many different family members and friends. I grew up with my neighbors, and we were all very close, and remain close to this day.
I am very close to my siblings and we all love going on trips together.

[starlink]

My IC is ruled by Uranus, in my 7th in Gemini and sextile Mars (in 5) and MC, inconjunct Moon in 12.

My life can be compared to a gypsy I guess. Moving not only with my own family numerous times from very early childhood onwards, but also during the life with my ex husband. After I divorced I moved twice by myself (within 3 years) and again twice with my now partner. I am finally settled down (I think....)
If I dont move house, I change my house. I have this urge to see new things around me and lately I am not moving that much, so it is the house itself (and the garden) I am changing occasionally.

My connection with my family, meaning brothers and sisters and at the time with my parents was extremely remote. I had my life, they had theirs and communication was almost absent, especially when I lived abroad and they all were together in my home country. Even emotionally (also 4th house) I feel disconnected from any of them, including my parents. I think this is the inconjunct to my very sensitive Moon in Scorpio. I have always found it very strange that I cannot feel the same warmth and loving,feeling towards them, as I feel for my own children. Something must have caused this separate feeling, I think I know what it is (also Chiron in 12) but cannot change it.

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by starlink

My IC is ruled by Uranus, in my 7th in Gemini and sextile Mars (in 5) and MC, inconjunct Moon in 12.

My life can be compared to a gypsy I guess. Moving not only with my own family numerous times from very early childhood onwards, but also during the life with my ex husband. After I divorced I moved twice by myself (within 3 years) and again twice with my now partner. I am finally settled down (I think....)
If I dont move house, I change my house. I have this urge to see new things around me and lately I am not moving that much, so it is the house itself (and the garden) I am changing occasionally.

My connection with my family, meaning brothers and sisters and at the time with my parents was extremely remote. I had my life, they had theirs and communication was almost absent, especially when I lived abroad and they all were together in my home country. Even emotionally (also 4th house) I feel disconnected from any of them, including my parents. I think this is the inconjunct to my very sensitive Moon in Scorpio. I have always found it very strange that I cannot feel the same warmth and loving,feeling towards them, as I feel for my own children. Something must have caused this separate feeling, I think I know what it is (also Chiron in 12) but cannot change it.

Interesting you should say this cos Uranus my chart ruler is on my sun/moon midpoint and angular in 7th opp Asc. We were all brought up to be very independent from a very young age and I have alwayse felt 'disconnected' to my siblings..... maybe this is the uranus/aquarius effect. also mercury ruler of IC is in 4th and can vouch for communications and everything coming back to home roots...

Traditionally Aquarius IC is supposed to enjoy collecting unsual items or have unusual home/family members even, did you find this to be the case?

smilingsteph,
You sound more of typical gemini IC than me. I would have expected more contact with siblings like yourself and wondered why that wasn't the case. But think cos of your mercury in 3rd and sun in 4th helped with neighbours and treating them like family...

ArianM,
"This trait may argue for a Cancer IC, but I feel it would similarly be appropriate to have a Gemini IC because my parents took my brother and me on many short and long-distance trips when we were children."

Cancer IC, did you have lots of house moves and felt restless in the home, poss like Mum? Was she/u bit moody sulky in home or oversensitive, nostalgic perhaps? Bit tight with money like mum? had to watch every penny? did she/u hord things for emotional, sentimental reasons like old birthday cards, old photos? any interest in geneology? antiques?

[CarrieLee]

Moon conjunct IC in Gem exactly square Sun/Pluto conjuction all at 22 degrees.

I grew up in one house and I started moving at 19 and when my parents moved from that house I was devastated..I am still attached to that house and now thru the wonders of Facebook to my neighbors in the neighborhood where I grew up.
I would like to settle down in ONE house one day and Hope and Pray I finally find the place Id like to settle in...I do know it is not Florida, where i currently reside.

I cannot convey to you how attached I was to that land.I do past life regressions and I have recovered at least one other life in the general vicinity and you can trace my lineage to the Mayflower and Native americans in that New England area...

While I am still attached I now want to move on to a new area..Perhaps when I am ready to leave this earth I will return Home to do it.

[smilingsteph]

I was reading Aspects in Astrology, by Sue Tompkins

Sun conjunct the IC:
Likes to have privacy. Some are like hermits.
She says that those love to "tap ones roots" (Aspects in Astrology). Find out where one comes from or their lineage.
Also interestingly the father may be an absent type of parent (in my case he was not even around!)
Those with Sun conjunct the IC "do not wish for public recognition or the star treatment." (Aspects in Astrology)

Square aspects to the IC axis:
"Suggest a long hard climb to the top, but a determination to get there. It sometimes suggests that the individual's ultimate goals are actually out of keeping with the character that they are, and integrating the two takes time. The person may also feel pulled between personal and professional life" (Aspects in Astrology)

Mercury conjunct the IC: Can make a sibling act as a parent (I literally raised my sisters, and feel very maternal towards them). "Or the parent may act more like a brother or sister than a parent" (Aspects in Astrology).

In another book: Intuitive Astrology by Elizabeth Rose Campbell says, that the taproot's purposes is "raising a family, self care; nurturance from the root level up."
We give ourselves the things mentioned above by the sign cusping our taproot.

The following may not totally fit for you guys (the placements are not quite) but it is interesting!

katydid-
Pluto conjunct the IC (not sure if yours is, but with your mom moving you all because of the secretary sounds like it)
"family secrets," "transposed to a completely different culture or a completely different family of their forebears" (Aspects in Astrology)

Star & Astrologer 50
Uranus conjunct the IC: "Feeling unable to put down roots, for they cannot believe they are ever going to feel safe. For some, depending on the aspects, the lack of roots is exciting. Many others with this placement though, often become very concerned with creating a permanent home and as much security as possible" (Aspects in Astrology)

Carrielee- tappin your roots, that sounds like an amazing story of your lineage! Are you sure your sun is not here! When I look at the Moon conjunct the IC it says that one with this placement must come from a rich family background, "the ideal placement for a historian." (Aspects in Astrology)

Arian- Moon conjunct the IC: The need to feel emotionally and domestically secure is likely to be very strong. There is usually a need for privacy, a place of retreat, and safety. (Aspects in Astrology)
Some even enjoy protecting the earth, as in gardening. One parental figure may be like the "safe parent" to go to.

Not sure if you identify with these, but this is such an interesting thread!

[katydid]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

Do you feel Pluto Conjunct Ic makes you more Scorpio or just your childhood? Maybe both?

/JJ

My IC is 4 leo and my Pluto is 18 Leo, South Node 21 Leo.

So they are not conjunct.

But I have the Sun @ 0 Scorpio, and my moon/mars/chiron conjunct in the 8th house. So I am pretty scorpionic for sure.

I should probably than my lucky stars they are not conjunct.


edit===for synchronicity, THIS WAS MY 666TH POST.

[CarrieLee]

Carrielee- tappin your roots, that sounds like an amazing story of your lineage! Are you sure your sun is not here! When I look at the Moon conjunct the IC it says that one with this placement must come from a rich family background, "the ideal placement for a historian." (Aspects in Astrology)

SmilingSteph- Oh how i wish I was rich, I may be someday if I have my way but Saturn sits and laughs at me in my Second house opposite my SN, I think I was last time around( I am a believer in Reincarnation) and may have been a bit snobby as I was quite poor in my 20's and needed to learn correct values SIGH.....I love History..
But thanks for making me smile today
my mom almost named me Stephanie...
Blessing
Carrie

[katydid]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

Oh. Okey. My "family number" is even 666.
And post code something similar. Phonenumber to.

I just wonder if you get more Scorpio if it's conjunct IC. It just seems very personal but in my chart it does not aspects anything else (except a weak Sextile to my Mars/Neptune conjunction).

That's would explain why i'm not so superficial and don't like people to look at my room (private).

It's angular so that would make you even more influenced.
/JJ

Yes, I think you do have a stronger Scorpio influence if Pluto is conjunct your IC. That makes it opposed your MC of course, and quite possibly square to your asc/desc axis as well.

So your Pluto/IC conjunction sextiles your mars/neptune, but not much else? That would tend to make your deeper emotional recesses kind of off limits .
Very private emotional life and perhaps a little uncertain about how others feel about you emotionally as well. The IC is where we receive unconditional love from our parents, home life, ourselves...Pluto there can make us feel undeserving, unlovable in fact, and it can make us feel ashamed, even if we are not clear WHY we feel that way.

[katydid]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

If the Mars/Neptune is in the fifth then? Would that make one more open like the fifth house or would the fifth house be more closed like pluto?

/JJ

Pluto has a bigger affect on the 5th than the 5th has on Pluto. What DOES affect Pluto is the Mars/Neptune sextile. That softens Pluto, and allows it to be more open when they feel trust and when they feel 'magnetic' physical energy and when they feel optimistic about potential friendship/love. Sometimes Pluto opens up so completely that it is like a volcano or waterfall, and overwhelms others.

[siamese_dream]

I don't think anyone has mentioned IC in Libra, but that's what I have. I think that, thus far, having Pluto in Scorpio in 4h has affected my home life more than Libra IC has, so I don't know what to make of it. 2 quotes that I pulled from the web...

"You love being surrounded by beauty in your home environment...the foundation of your personality and decision-making is based on principles of harmony and equality. You enjoy entertaining others in your home".

"Libra influencing this house suggests that you are very much in need of roots. You want to own your home and possessions, free and clear, and you need this for your emotional security. You appear very peaceful and quiet, but until you are well anchored in life, you will experience much inner restlessness and vacillation. Your home is the balancing point in your life. You need to have your abode attractively decorated, and filled with congenial people."

Hmmm. I love home decorating shows (such as the ones on HGTV), and I have thought a lot about the design of my own home (which won't happen any time soon, as I still live w/ my family, but hey a girl can dream!). Re-decorating my bedroom was the most exciting event of my summer vacation last year! I have Venus in Taurus, so I suppose this strengthens my desire to appreciate/have beautiful things. Venus is in 10h, so I'll end up acquiring these things through my career?? *crosses fingers*

[kurayami]

Cancer is on the cusp of my IC. We moved around pretty much every year, within the same town. We only changed towns twice in my life, but always came back to the town I was born in.

My parents never really had any money (what little spare we did have, my mother gambled), so I never had fancy things. All of my clothing was hand-me-downs from my cousin and my mother always cooked really traditional meals. We pretty much had meat and 3 veg every night. So I hardly cook that for myself now.

With both Saturn and the Moon square my IC, I always felt very emotionally restricted at home and that made me feel depressed most of the time once I hit about 12. With Saturn square the IC, my parents had high expectations of me as well. Which probably didn't help me feel settled either.

Also in a lot of ways, I was like an only child. My only brother is almost 7 years older than myself and he moved out when I was nine. Incidentally, my brother moved out because he felt that my parents were restricting his sense of freedom. He has Sagittarius on the MC with Mars conjunct it and Jupiter and the Moon square it.

My father died from cancer of the lymph nodes when I was 16, which impacted me a great deal because I was never close with my mother. We're probably closer now, but I'll never completely trust her because she riduculed me a lot when I was a child.

[starlink]

Traditionally Aquarius IC is supposed to enjoy collecting unsual items or have unusual home/family members even, did you find this to be the case?

I am not a collecter of things, but when I see something really special, yes, I buy it. I am quite Scorpionic in a sense (Asc.) that I throw away with ease something I have not used for a long time. Similarly I can say goodbye to a country I lived in and people I met there without any problem (probably subconscious selfdefence mechanism against being sad about it)

I have a brother and a sister who are mentally unbalanced. One is manic-depressive since he was 21 and the other, the sister used to be schisophrenic but with the help of medicin is balanced, but she turned into a total hermit, no telephone, no car, no contact to anyone. Surprisingly she married (secretly) also to a guy with mental problems. They met in the social workplace where people with mental problems can work. Another sister is a bit of a religiouse fanatic. Extremely helpful (over the top almost) and so on but forcing Jesus and God on you like forcefeeding a goose!!
Then I have another eldest brother who also has a strange character (cant go on vacation without getting sick immediately! so he has to go home or feels miserable whereever he is. Some sort of guilt feeling towards not working I suppose. His wife is the main breadwinner, so I have the feeling, because he is not working as regular like she does, that he (subconsciously) thinks that he does not deserve to go on vacation.

Yes, strange family members indeed! I seem to be the only one "in luck". (Jupiter conj.Moon conjunct Ascendant from 12th house side maybe?).

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

Wow thats very true! If i feal that magnetic energy i can tell them every dirty detail about my whole life. Sick things i should really keep to myself. I think that "if they leave after hearing this it does not matter because then they are the wrong people anyway" or "at least i did not got to know them".

Sorry if i talk to much about me but one thing more. How does Scorpio Pluto on IC explains my appearance? Does it? Because i have the darkest eyes in the family or is from somewhere else? It's the only planet i have on a personal point (ASC/DC/MC/IC).

/JJ

Usually Pluto conj IC suggests some kind of abuse, so where is natal pluto? and how is it asepcted?

Siamese Dream,
Libra IC ruled by venus but placed in 10th. Wherever venus is placed is where we get pleasure, give and receive love and affection and earn money by sign and house placement. I have venus in 4th and I call it 'bake a cake syndrome' likes to entertain, but mother and feed people, cos after all it is the domain of cancer. But libra is restless procrastinating and indecisive. So do you have problems deciding colours, decorations?

Kurayami,
What a sad story but I do think it's more your aspects as in saturn/moon square IC that had the bigger impact, espec if saturn/moon were conj this aspect alone is said to be able to endure hardships, mostly financial but emotional to.

Starlink,
Interesting comments and thanks... cos my uranus is 7th I am quite capable of clicking my heels in and walking away without a second glance and starting from scratch, if something relationship wise is not working, I will not flog a dead horse, but start afresh, very aquarian/uranus energies at work. Also having pluto in 7th (thankfully well aspected) I look for and want strong Leo authority type men whom I can look upto and respect and who also want their freedom, but I want this freedom also. Goodness knows what I would do with a jealous or possessive man

[astrologer50]

smilingsteph you said,
"Star & Astrologer 50
Uranus conjunct the IC: "Feeling unable to put down roots, for they cannot believe they are ever going to feel safe. For some, depending on the aspects, the lack of roots is exciting. Many others with this placement though, often become very concerned with creating a permanent home and as much security as possible" (Aspects in Astrology)"

I dont have this aquarius IC, mine is gemini like yours, just cos Uranus is conj sun/moon midpoint and angular 7th and square to sun/moon also.

I'm going back to Gemini IC cos I have seen particularly with Gemini Asc, that they have often had quite a hard childhood, bit of a square peg in a round hole. Personally I feel this with my Gemini IC and someone I didn't quite fit in someone. Did you feel like this to?

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by Jenna Jupiter

Wow thats very true! If i feal that magnetic energy i can tell them every dirty detail about my whole life. Sick things i should really keep to myself. I think that "if they leave after hearing this it does not matter because then they are the wrong people anyway" or "at least i did not got to know them".

Sorry if i talk to much about me but one thing more. How does Scorpio Pluto on IC explains my appearance? Does it? Because i have the darkest eyes in the family or is from somewhere else? It's the only planet i have on a personal point (ASC/DC/MC/IC).

/JJ

Well after looking at your chart your Pluto is in 3rd house in Equal house and I would have thought that communications kept secret would be more applicable? Plus this is the only planet in water which adds to the challenge cos there are no planets in water houses, just all that in Cappi in 5th house of Leo (fire & earth). I have 4fire, 4earth so yes dead practical and I only have 1water too, so not very good at 'tea and sympatahy' either would prefer to do something practical, bet you're the same?

Cos Pluto is unaspected except to IC and therefore is acting as singleton and rules 3rd house of communications. What happened age 5ish SA IC conj Pluto? If it's too personal PM

[inspired777]

Pisces IC here! I've always considered myself very lucky when it comes to family. We don't have serious conflicts and (in my close to 18yrs of life XD) my family has been extremely supportive, especially my dad. If i had to describe my relationship with my family in one word, I'd say peaceful. Quiet too at times. Also, I read somewhere that one with pisces ic might idealise a parental figure. This is definitely true for me - I look up to my dad very much. Home is generally a place of comfort for me (:

[smilingsteph]

Originally Posted by astrologer50

I dont have this aquarius IC, mine is gemini like yours, just cos Uranus is conj sun/moon midpoint and angular 7th and square to sun/moon also.

I'm going back to Gemini IC cos I have seen particularly with Gemini Asc, that they have often had quite a hard childhood, bit of a square peg in a round hole. Personally I feel this with my Gemini IC and someone I didn't quite fit in someone. Did you feel like this to?

I always felt like I never quite fit in anywhere, I think that this is why I have this restless quality, along with this deep intense desire to find out what I am good at. My uncle always tells me he thinks I am "a square peg trying to fit in a round hole." How fitting!
Creative wise I wish someone would just tell me what I am good at so I can get on with what inspires me. Might be my intercepted 5th house in Cancer? And my badly afflicted moon.

[astrologer50]

Originally Posted by inspired777

Pisces IC here! I've always considered myself very lucky when it comes to family. We don't have serious conflicts and (in my close to 18yrs of life XD) my family has been extremely supportive, especially my dad. If i had to describe my relationship with my family in one word, I'd say peaceful. Quiet too at times. Also, I read somewhere that one with pisces ic might idealise a parental figure. This is definitely true for me - I look up to my dad very much. Home is generally a place of comfort for me (:

Thanks for contributing, IC describe home roots and circumstances, not usually parental relationships though, unless your sun or moon is conj IC. Do you have Neptune well aspected to your sun sign or saturn? Do you feel restless in home roots, cos pisces like gemini and libra are all rather restless, procrastinating and indecisive. I have gemini IC but don't feel restless cos I have sun, venus and mercury in 4th and moon conj 4th cusp

[siamese_dream]

Originally Posted by astrologer50

Siamese Dream,
Libra IC ruled by venus but placed in 10th. Wherever venus is placed is where we get pleasure, give and receive love and affection and earn money by sign and house placement. I have venus in 4th and I call it 'bake a cake syndrome' likes to entertain, but mother and feed people, cos after all it is the domain of cancer. But libra is restless procrastinating and indecisive. So do you have problems deciding colours, decorations?

Problems with decision making? Yes, definitely...Sun in Gemini, so I am very scattered and enjoy lots of different things. I think that Venus in Taurus/Leo Rising makes me more stubborn than the average Gem, so once I make an important decision (which could take a while), I tend to stick to it! Thanks for your insights.

[iwonder]

My IC is in Taurus. No planets in th 4th. First thing that comes to mind about my childhood is stable. I've lived in the same town, in the same place until I was 19. My parents have been together for almost 40 years, and while I remember a few arguments, there were no fights. At least I didn't witness any.

Taurus should indicate material stability as well, I guess. We were doing all right, not wealthy, but had disposable income. We've always had our physical needs covered, and the rest my parents tried to use for education and travel. But anyway, I wanted way more than my parents could afford (who didn't? ) My Venus is in Virgo, so maybe that explains some prudence in my family.

My Venus is in the 8th. No idea what that means familywise.

Now my own family, I think, pays too much attention to physical aspects of life. In my opinion, we have too much stuff and bother too much as to what's for dinner. I think this is prudent Virgo Venus again, plus my Moon is in the 10th. But things are quite solid at home, whether I care or not.

[starlink]

I was also wondering how you could see if someone had a happy or traumatic childhood. Taking my 4th you would think, mmm..... Uranus. Like I said, connection with siblings minimal and this is also shown by my 3rd house, ruler Saturn who squares my Mercury absolutely exactly. I think we should always look at houses 3 and 4 in connection with one another as siblings belong to your family.

Traditionally Aquarius is also ruled by Saturn, so in my case makes even more sense to combine both.

Going a bit further, Saturn is in Leo, ruled by a very diblitated Sun in the 6th, in Taurus (shows maybe that my parents also stayed together until they died) but opposes Moon in 12 (showing tension between my parents which I only found out about when my father died and I found letters)and squares modern Asc. ruler Pluto. Lovely T-square in other words.

From this you would probably think that I had a difficult childhood and I probably had, but, and now comes the big "but", I can only remember being very happy as a child (except in school where I was pestered, but I never made a point about that, happy with just one boy and one girlfriend I had,) but in the family always felt happy, good relationship with both parents, never fights. I had a very good life, dad with good position, great houses, never financial trouble in the family, great vacations, you name it.

So am I denying unhappiness with that Moon in the 12th in Scorpio? (really badly aspected!)

Is my Jupiter conjunct the Ascendant maybe making me see things always from an optimistic side? Why is it that I can hardly ever feel realy close to someone even though I like them very much? I once had a much older cousin who told me she always felt so sorry for me and I was astonished when she said that. I never felt like a "poor me".

It has always, as psychological astrologer, fascinated me to figure out that 4th house (together with 3 and 12). Actually, the first quadrant of a chart reveals, I think, most of a persons character.

[gimzo23]

I like this thread. Moon conjunct IC in Libra here. The Libra for me brings a very big need for harmony, generally speaking, but especially in my home environment. I hate fighting, but even more, I hate to hear people fight. The same with watching and hearing people screaming at each other on TV. Bad vibes affect me and throw me off-balance rather easily, especially if they are lasting or recurring. Hearing a door getting a little loudly closed or slammed by a neighbor somewhere literally gives me a bad feeling in my stomach, lol. So, a peaceful and harmonious environment is very important for my well-being.

About my Moon conjunct the IC. Good relationship and close bond with my mother, and I feel very comfortable at the place where I grew up. I've also been inclined to put more energy towards my home and personal/private life than towards the outer life, which hasn't been very favorable for certain aspects of my life. The Moon ruling my 12th house and the Sun as ascendant ruler and final dispositor in the 12th might have something to do with this, too, though.