The Fatalism of Astrology

[MamaMinnee]

I am a realistic, although some will say fatalistic, psychic astrologer. In essence, I believe that, with a transiting trine from Jupiter, you can generally expect unrestrained increase; but with a transiting square from Pluto... well, you can expect otherwise, and I counsel accordingly.

I respect, but maintain alternate views from humanistic astrologers, who essentially believe that the chart is a set of potentials and that the planets do not automatically generate specific conditions. Most astrologers believe that transits constitute the necessary evolution of your chart potentials; however, some believe that, with advance knowledge, you can channel planetary energy into something else. Eg.--instead of letting a Pluto transit just 'happen to you', you take the reigns ahead of time and initiate a transformation yourself, thereby minimizing the intensity of your transit. This sounds great, but seldom works to the extent one would want in reality. Moreover, not everyone wants to hear that life may take a major drastic turn.... for an extended stay, no less... so...

Is astrology too fatalistic?

[Polo]

I think astrology *can* be very harmful. It seems that everywhere I go, squares are bad. Oppositions are bad. But conjunctions, trines, and sextiles? They're good. Lots of conjunctions and easy trines make for a great person. It's the wrong kind of thinking. Some people are just left feeling, "Boy, I'm stupid. I'm a really bad person. I have Sun square Mars. I have Moon square Saturn. That's it. That's my fate." And they get stuck. Likewise, some people think they have it "all good" in their charts, and you can even see some people here jiggling their weight around, thinking they're the best in the world.
In the end, astrology should not decide who you are. You should.

[wilsontc]

Mama,

You said:

Originally Posted by MamaMinnee

I am a realistic, although some will say fatalistic, psychic astrologer. In essence, I believe that, with a transiting trine from Jupiter, you can generally expect unrestrained increase; but with a transiting square from Pluto... well, you can expect otherwise, and I counsel accordingly...Is astrology too fatalistic?

I don't think saying, "you can generally expect..." is "fatalistic astrology". To me, "fatalistic astrology" is saying something like, "You have Saturn square Venus, so you will be unable to keep any relationship you ever have in your life." The astrology you are describing indicates that SOMETHING will happen with these aspects, and here is the TYPE of thing that will happen...but HOW it exactly happens is up to how you handle the situation. The "great debate" in astrology is between those who look at a chart and see possibilties, and those who look at a chart and see eventualities. And, while some astrologers definitely "embrace fate" and focus on "eventualities", there are a LOT who are open to possibilities.

Balancing it out,

Tim

[waybread]

I am a great believer in choice-centred astrology, but with two caveats: (1) it takes a lot of effort to successfully pull off a difficult transit, and (2) I don't think people are meant to avoid all of life's difficulties. Sometimes traumas, in hindsight, seemed to appear in our lives for a reason, making us sadder but wiser.

The key to choice-centred astrology is to "own" the different planetary energies in one's self, notably the difficult ones. Astrologer Steven Forrest talks about planets as teachers and tricksters. We learn the teacher's lessons, or we get blind-sided by the trickster. For example learn Pluto's lessons of deep personal transformation and quest for uncomfortable truths, or we face Pluto's "trick" that the universe is laughing at us, and that whatever we thought was real is "dead" or "dying". We can then to some extent plan our lives to manifest the teacher's lessons: if Pluto conjuncts your MC, quit your job. If Saturn transits your second house, pay off your creditors. I just think life works a lot better this way.

In terms of whether an astrologer should tell a client that the year ahead looks like so much rough sledding, I would say, "Yes, absolutely." Otherwise the astrologer loses credibility when tough things happen. But make it appropriate to the "native." One can be blunt with Scorpio or Sagittarius, but should be extra-sensitive with Virgo or Pisces, for example.

[Plutonian Persona]

Originally Posted by hiimnotcool

So, I don’t think that awareness can make you the master rather than the slave, but I do think that it can give you greater control over your perception of events, and this awareness makes you more of a willing participant or co-creator with you own fate, rather than someone who is simply being dragged along for the ride.

I could not agree with this more: no one can be in total control of their lives, but I do think that if you are willing to work with the Universe rather than against it your life can be more of an evolutionary process rather than just "being dragged along for the ride." Astrology, in my view, can be a tool to show one how to "go with the flow." Freewill comes into effect because one can choose to be enlightened about one's individual process or totally ignorant of it.

[wilsontc]

cool,

The article you quoted said:

They too affirmed that everything is fated, with the following model. When a dog is tied to a cart, if it wants to follow it is pulled and follows, making its spontaneous act coincide with necessity, but if it does not want to follow it will be compelled in any case. So it is with men too: even if they do not want to, they will be compelled in any case to follow what is destined.

This is where I personally have a problem with ancient, fated astrology. It talks about fate as if it is one thing, a constant and we are "chained", "shackled", "tied up", or "carted" in this case. It seems to me that this is the case when someone is UNaware of their situation. If a person is astrologically unaware then they do whatever is easiest or seems most "natural" to them, and they remain "tied up cart pulled." But it seems to me that once someone becomes AWARE that they are tied up to a cart, then they can decide whether or not to resist the cart's movement, whether or not to STAY tied to the cart, or whether or not to kick the cart to pieces. This AWAREness comes about by realizing (through astrology) their situation and that the "easiest" or "most natural" choice is not the ONLY choice and not necessarily the BEST choice. Continuing with the "carted" example, I think the "fated" part about it is, even if a person become aware they are tied to a cart, they can not float off the ground, flap their arms and fly to the Moon, or do something else that is physically impossible. So there ARE limitations...even if they decide to unhitch themselves from the cart.

Living life in an uncarted way,

Tim

[RockFish]

I like the psychological approach to astrology, the one that considers positions and aspects as indications of a given personality. This means one can do a conscious effort to integrate and deal with the different and clashing parts of the chart-personality, instead of just sitting and thinking, "oh, I'm unlucky in love, my chart says so, I'm fated to be so". The psychological approach would say "You have a tendency to see yourself as unlucky in love, and therefore you sabotage your relationships". A considerable part of a given life is created by the person, and not by external events, and astrology may help showing the individual what he/she is doing to him/herself unconsciously, which may help putting the habit or tendency in check.

But I do believe astrology presents outter events as well, in the form of certain transits, events that are not a product of an individual personality, psyche or habit.... Things that come from the outside, like a job offer, a new partner, an accident, a broken pipe that floods the house (a clashing transit between Moon and Neptune, for example ). So, I do believe there is an amount of choice when it comes to dealing with a chart, but I also believe the chart gives certain hints of fate........

To sum it up, I believe in free will and I believe in fate. I dunno how those two things go together in my mind, but fact is they do.

The most dangerous thing to the astrologer, to the client and to astrology itself, imo, is the ego of the astrologer. The bigger the ego, the more of a fatalist s/he'll be, and more prone to a fatalist reading, because a huge ego means the astrologer doesn't give a lot of space to being wrong or to astrology's complexity and variety to shine through. No aspect or transit is a monolith, they vary according to each chart, each person and to the unique circumstances involved, so s/he who claims to know without a doubt what's going to happen in a certain life has an enormous ego..... Astrology has a way of surprising even the most apt astrologer, if they are open to being surprised.

[astro.teacher]

Is astrology too fatalistic?

That question depends on your belief of fate. If you believe everything is fated, down to the most minute detail and Astrology is a method in which to illuminate the path to bring understanding of the future than yes, Astrology is completely fatalistic. The question should be, do you need Astrology if life is fatalistic?

My personal answer to this is yes, Astrology will help you embrace rather than fight fate. Once you embrace the idea that things are meant to happen they way they happen, you suddenly have a completely revolutionary idea of life. Knowing the future will also bring you peace-of-mind with concerns to anything you wish to achieve. The downside of this is however that societal belief that "You can achieve anything you want!" gets destroyed. Again, this may not be a negative in some cases.

[Caprising]

I believe that there are ways to "avoid" or sidestep evil energies that we sometimes encounter on planet earth. If you think that there is no way around "fated happenings" in ones life then maybe you would want to look at your "negative mindset" (saturn?) for a start. No problem solving scientist ever discovered the solution to a problem by thinking "There is no way around this problem so I might as well accept the consequences of the action/event/whatever" ..... If your looking for ways to make your (or others) futures "better" then don't throw in the towel before you start!. There are ways to get around these things, and it's up to us astrologers to discover these methods! Move forward, not backward!

[MamaMinnee]

Originally Posted by Polo

I think astrology *can* be very harmful. It seems that everywhere I go, squares are bad. Oppositions are bad. But conjunctions, trines, and sextiles? They're good. Lots of conjunctions and easy trines make for a great person. It's the wrong kind of thinking. Some people are just left feeling, "Boy, I'm stupid. I'm a really bad person. I have Sun square Mars. I have Moon square Saturn. That's it. That's my fate." And they get stuck. Likewise, some people think they have it "all good" in their charts, and you can even see some people here jiggling their weight around, thinking they're the best in the world.
In the end, astrology should not decide who you are. You should.

Natally-speaking, using your examples of: Sun square Mars and Moon square Saturn... don'tcha think that... approximately 80% of the people with these natal placements encounter similar experiences pertaining to men, authority figures, etc... with Sun square Mars. And, those with Moon square Saturn can collectively relate with issues involving childhood and the mother?

Usually, the person with either of these placements has manifested life situations systematic with their basic astrological description. With a square, I would say, this area is where you can expect challenges; but will be rewarded if you rise to the occasion, YOU decide. And, where you have a trine, things come a little easier here; but if you get lazy, you won't be able to maximize your already high potential, YOU decide.

Analogy-wise: you are the pilot of the plane and I am the air traffic controller, letting you know the climate from my perspective, as well as how other pilots have fared in comparable weather.

[Ajar]

My opinion is that ....one really has no choice over their biological genetics or their natal chart. And I believe that the natal chart is essentially a map of an individuals celestial genetics.

Some biological genetic predispositions may be fought by pure will, such as alcoholism, others by fortune, such as new treatments/cures/procedures for some genetically predisposed cancers, or rhinoplasty, while others such as height, skin color, etc. are basically with you for the long run.

With astrology you cannot change where the planets were at the instant of birth and the pull of those planets will be exerted upon you throughout your life, some astrological predispositions can be lessened through pure will, some may be modified by a change of location, while others are with you for the long run.

JM$.02

My 2 cents on this. Well I believe that astrology is a sign from G-d to let us know we're all special creatures (animal and plant kingdom included!), we partake in the Divine plan and its symbolically beautiful. I read a very interesting article about the the three wise kings or magi as they are referenced in the bible. And these wise men knew about the birth of Jesus as modern scholars suggested they were from the Zoroastrian religion and were accurate in their astrological predictions. Another theologian was able to claim that he calculated when, where, what, and where that star over Bethlehem was. Also, it was very interesting to read that Greek rulers saw it as an omen that when a solar eclipse happened, his/her rule would crumple. And so the theologian noted it did. And though a man like Nero could try to kill enemies to fight off fate, he had no chance.
My thoughts are usually streams of consciousness, I tend to get off topic.. I think astrology is a way to help us have faith in something at least and not hinder us. Its true, we are given a birth, a time, a place, a family or lack there of, and an environment. It seems we have no say in this, but what if we made a contract or promise to forget our real nature? What if the collective memory has a role in this? In regards to the planets effects on us I truly wonder if these planets represent supernatural beings who have an influence on our lives. Sounds kinda out there to ordinary people, but religions do speak of this. I had a book about Angels and Demons, it was great and encyclopedic, and the author through research alluded to and made a diagram of angels and their respective domains or planets. I find that interesting, but not practical in terms of applying such knowledge to our life, other than maybe asking a supernatural being for help if we're influenced by such a being.. One more thing, I respect other people's beliefs (that are benevolent in nature only!) but I can't seem to see how one can believe in the cosmos just being looked at something out there that wheels influence over our lives, and yet overlook an Intelligent Creator, but maybe I'm bias cause I have a sojourner kind of soul to seek answers. Guess some of us do but in different ways.. A friend of mine put it a different way. She said I would go through a difficult transit, while another aspect would make it more difficult, but after that, a better transit would come. She likened it "the gift of the gods."