Anyone here use Ceres?

[lillyjgc]

Waybread,
I'm including some links to further info on Ceres.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ead.php?t=8259

There is no time documented for Ceres discovery (apparently, Piazzi didn't take good notes) so we're forced to use the sunrise chart for the day she was discovered. This is standard astrological practice.
There are some good discussions about Ceres and other asteroids in previous threads on this forum too.

http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html

http://www.astrologicallyspeaking.com/ceres.htm

Cheers,
Lillyjgc

[JayM]

How do I find where Ceres, pallas athene, Juno, and vesta are in my chart?

In the book "The Idiots Guide to Astrology" it gives a short meaning for all the asteriods. Doesn't say how do find them though. Could anyone help me?

[Nexus7]

Try astro.com, or wikiastro.com as it is called now. It has a whole list of asteroids you can ask for.

[JayM]

Yes, but how do I find where they are in my chart?

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by waybread

R4ven, it is interesting that you describe a man with Saturn opposite Ceres as very thin. Saturn tends to restrict or limit what it touches. Saturn is also a disciplinarian, possibly making this man very attentive to diet and fitness.

Thanks for that, waybread. I did notice that when his wife made him a cup of tea when they visited me that she mentioned I only had `cow's milk', and so did he still want milk. Now, he may well have a sensitivity, but I suspect he's very particular about his diet.
Thanks again.
R :sunny:

[Nexus7]

'Yes, but how do I find where they are in my chart?'

The symbols for the asteroids will show up in the chart and you might be able to deduce what they are, by adding them to your chart one by one. The Ceres symbol looks like an inverted question mark. Like a scythe......

Raven, Saturn/Ceres or no, I would not underestimate the effect that having intolerances of sensitivities can do regaring diet and approach to food. I don't have Saturn/Ceres, but I do have Ceres/Moon and well, these things do discourage against overeating, or eating foods that may cause trouble, and now there are accusations from family about 'not eating enough.' Odd, given that there are so many other family members with food intolerances.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

but I do have Ceres/Moon and well, these things do discourage against overeating, or eating foods that may cause trouble, and now there are accusations from family about 'not eating enough.' Odd, given that there are so many other family members with food intolerances.

Nexus7, I've noticed in several other posts you've mentioned food sensitivities in relation to Ceres, and yes, I've seen that in myself and others.

However, given my own journey (I feel that I'm quite a bit older than you, so have had more years in which to plough thru my `issues') I've recognised that food sensitivities and intolerances rarely appear in isolation.
Isolation from what, then? For myself, I found that once I had my mercury amalgams (only 3-4 of them, and small, too) removed 10 years ago, the food intolerances gradually eased until now I eat pretty much freely. Along with that I had to do some major, major hard work on my life, my past, my relationship with my mother, etc, etc.
My kids also had food intolerances, and they have also healed completely, although my oldest son has Asperger's syndrome, and his level of sensitivity to his environment is higher it seems, and he still has to watch his intake of additives, particularly preservatives. He tends to react to these only when he's stressed.

I'm not saying this is universal - I know that gluten intolerance is a hard one to shift, but it has been done. And I'm certainly not trying to preach. I'm only sharing what I know, and whether you are open to this or not is not my concern.

:sunny:

PS: As far as the Ceres/nurturing factor goes, to seek what is beneath the food intolerances, or what causes them & triggers them is where one can go in order to heal this, because as I see it, to avoid certain foods is not nurturing oneself - in the long-term at least. The food intolerances are merely a signpost to lead you to whatever underlies them.
This has been the experience of me, and many of my friends.

[Nexus7]

Raven, as far as age goes, all I can say there is that I am in the process of a chiron return right now.

I am sure that something like food intolerances has its holism, but as far as 'issues' go, whenver a doctor says that my IBS is purely to do with stress, then that I find to be undermining, as itis implying that itis psychological rather than having any organic factor - I am not saying that stress doesn't play a part in such things.

Themain thing I leave out is wheat-based food, so far I have not tried to eliminate dairy products. I enjoy the epicurian delights of good cuisine - Mars in Taurus, no doubt, and evening nourishment is not a problem, although trying to find suitable snacks during the day can be more difficult.

I don't particularly want to end up like those family members of mine that keep on eliminating to the point that they end up subsisting on lentils alone, for example. Niehter do I care for it when every manner of emotional problems is laid at its door and there is a cousin of mine, for example, who develops wild mood swings whenever she touches. With my mother, that has sometines become 'if only you'd shell your beans, you'd vote Conservative.' If it is question of dealing with toxins such as candida, that probably is another ball-game, of course.

There is a Neptunian side to this that is a real pain, IMO - in the end, nobody knows even now, precisly what IBS is all about. There are quacks who say that there is no such thing as candida for example, then there are those who claim by it.

I don't have any fillings, either.

[waybread]

Lilly, it is highly unlikely that Ceres was discovered at sunrise! Using midnight as a time guesstimate is also a standard astrological practice. In Piazzi's case, we know the discovery dates (more than one), so the time/s could have been after midnight in the a.m. through about an hour before sunrise, and about an hour after sunset and before midnight in the p.m. The problem with a sunrise guesstimate, as early risers know, is that the stars fade from visibility well before dawn, and a body as small as Ceres couldn't have been readily detected at sunrise. So we can be near certain that the house cusps with a sunrise chart for Ceres' discovery are incorrect. Whether by a lot or a little, is hard to say. Consequently, where a time isn't known, I prefer to work without house cusps, as they are more likely to add erroneous information than correct information. Thanks for the links!

Jay, if you go to the "free charts" pp. at astrodienst.com, you will see where you can input asteroids and planetoids.

Ceres's relationship to "nurturing" is only one dimension of this dwarf planet. She is also prominent in natural disasters charts, and some people feel she relates to mourning and grief, as per the extensive mythology about Ceres/Demeter.

[Nexus7]

Waybread, I do think we need to get a sharper sense of were Ceres and the Moon overlap and where they can be beter distinguished as different.

The Moon, for example, appears in the charts of writers - and possibly for artists too and my own expereince is that the Moon is more to do with the the ability to work with images and impressions in a way that would be too concrete for Ceres.

When things go badly wrong with Ceres, as with the Moon, as a significator for nurturing, however, there also seem to be indications that the consequences can be dire: hard aspects to Ceres are purportedly said to show up in the charts of mass murderers.

[lillyjgc]

Waybread,
If you can find any further info about times of Ceres' discovery, I'd be delighted. I looked very extensively earlier this year, along with Kai (another forum member) when we were discussing it before. I didnt pluck the sunrise time out of the air-To the best of my knowledge the (second) discovery of Ceres did occur just before sunrise, but no exact time is available as far as I know.
Perhaps another way of looking at it: The ascendant point would have to be able to literally *see* ceres in the sky.Maybe someone better at the astronomy side of astrology could share their thoughts with us.
Anyway, the chart I posted, is, to the very best of my knowledge, the one that is generally agreed upon, but if you can find out more that'd be great.
Cheers,
Lilly

[waybread]

Lilly, I also looked at astrological Ceres extensively. I have never come across any "general agreement" for a sunrise pinpoint time for Ceres' discovery. It simply cannot be correct, if you think of the astronomer's logistics involved. At sunrise most of the stars have faded from view--as we all know from being outdoors and observant at this time of day. If the discovery of Ceres was historically noted as "shortly before sunrise", fair enough. One could determine the time of sunrise with accuracy for the discovery date and latitude/longitude. Then one would at least have to back up the plausible discovery time sufficiently in the a.m. of a pre-dawn period so that the sky would be dark enough for someone actually to see Ceres through a telescope.

Frankly, conventions in guesstimating unknown times in astrology are handled in one of six ways, so far as I am aware: (1) admitting that the time is unknown, and working without house cusps, (2) noon, (3) midnight, (4) sunrise, (5) chart rectification--hard to see how this one would work for an event, though, and (6) further research. The last option is the most preferable: whether sources in any language that you or I read with any fluency exist, however, I don't yet know.

And here is where the "rubber" of truth-seeking vs. ideology "meets the road" in astrology. The 4th house is oh-so-convenient for people who see Ceres as some kind of junior moon. I do not. Ceres was one of the most important goddesses of Roman-era mythology, and she bore little relationship to Artemis/Diana.

There may be another way around this problem. With the chart you showed, the moon is almost full. (Sun opposite moon indicates a full moon. The waxing moon rises and sets before the sun.) Full moon and near-full moon nights are notoriously poor times for backyard astronomy, as the moon's glow tends to obscure the heavens. So perhaps one could further narrow the logical discovery time to a still-dark period just before sunrise by calculating the time of the gibbous moon's setting in the West--or perhaps a time when the sky sector of Taurus would be more visible as the moon separated from it.

Nexus, I truly agree that Ceres has to be something more than a junior moon, as asteroid astrologer Demetra George seemed to portray Ceres. I hate to bring up painful memories of a badly deteriorated thread, but there is another Ceres thread at astrodienst.com that did illuminate a lot of info. about astrological Ceres, alongside some ill tempers. A couple of themes that did come up there were (1) grief, (2) eating disorders, (3) agriculture, (4) natural disasters, (5) the environment, and (6) a lot of material on Virgo, which I nominated as the sign for Ceres' modern rulership.

[R4VEN]

Originally Posted by waybread

Nexus, I truly agree that Ceres has to be something more than a junior moon, as asteroid astrologer Demetra George seemed to portray Ceres. I hate to bring up painful memories of a badly deteriorated thread, but there is another Ceres thread at astrodienst.com that did illuminate a lot of info. about astrological Ceres, alongside some ill tempers. A couple of themes that did come up there were (1) grief, (2) eating disorders, (3) agriculture, (4) natural disasters, (5) the environment, and (6) a lot of material on Virgo, which I nominated as the sign for Ceres' modern rulership.

Thanks for that clarity, Waybread. It's useful that you have summarised the chief issues that appear to be Ceres themes.

As an observer of Ceres - am still at kindergarten level in relation to this asteroid - I consider grief to be a big factor, perhaps even a factor which contributes to the eating disorders. After all, the most damaging grief is that of a mother having lost a child, and then having no healthy outlet for her grief. (Talking about my own mother here, and it has been my own task to express this grief on her behalf, even after her own death - heavy stuff) Unexpressed grief never actually goes away - it's usually passed on to the next generation in some way, and I have many examples of this amongst people I know. For myself, I spent my early teenage years under the wing of a mother who never gave herself permission to grieve, and that has had an enormous impact on me, my choice of partner (now ex) and my children's well-being.

Another observation I have which just may have Ceres connections, and is related to unexpressed grief...............
Years ago, when my Asperger's son was diagnosed with ADHD (or hyperacticty, as it was called in the 80's) and when I mentioned this to someone about 8 years ago they said that a well-known psychologist working in the area had discovered a connection between behavioural disorders in children and unexpressed grief in their parents and/or grandparents. At the time, I found this to be far-fetched, but it makes more sense to me now.

Everything is connected!! :sunny:

[Nexus7]

'......there is another Ceres thread at astrodienst.com that did illuminate a lot of info. about astrological Ceres, alongside some ill tempers. A couple of themes that did come up there were (1) grief, (2) eating disorders, (3) agriculture, (4) natural disasters, (5) the environment, and (6) a lot of material on Virgo, which I nominated as the sign for Ceres' modern rulership....'

I know, Waybread, I remember well, ill tempers and all. But I have seen much worse. And apart from eating disorders, the other four points arguably do summarise the main points of the ahem -wheat to be sifted from the chaff there, and does hint more of a recognisable signature distinct from that of the Moon.

[waybread]

Thanks, R4aven & Nexus!

It occurred to me after I signed off yesterday that another problem with the sunrise chart is that a planet/oid down into the 4th house can't be observed by telescope, because it is below the horizon.

My time is limited, but I have been doing a bit more digging into the history of Ceres' discovery. I found a couple of interesting articles. The first one actually quotes astronomer Piazzi, who said that he first observed Ceres on the evening of January 1, 1801. The second one is an article: "Giuseppe Piazzi and the Discovery of Ceres" by GF Serio, A. Manara, and P. Sicoli, who appear to be Italian astronomers.

http://www.atropa.unipa.it/versione_inglese/Hystory/BODE'S_LAW.htm

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/AsteroidsIII/pdf/3027.pdf

They claim that Piazzi discovered Ceres "at about 8:00 p. m. on January 1, 1801," Palermo Italy. (Data offered here for anyone with time to run this chart before I can get to it!)

Piazzi observed Ceres for several nights, but was hampered by poor weather and Ceres moving too close to the sun to be seen. He lost track of it (thinking it was a comet, to boot) and thanks to the efforts of other European mathematicians and astronomers to calculate its orbit Ceres was rediscovered permanently. Two German astronomers made independent re-discoveries of Ceres on Dec. 31, 1801 (von Zach, in Gotha) and Olbers in Bremen on Jan. 2, 1802. So there are 3 dates to choose from. I don't know whether times are available for the latter two dates, but hopefully the astronomers at least noted whether they observed Ceres in the evening or early morning hours. (Olbers also discovered Pallas, BTW.)

Anyway, just a little detective work here.

[lillyjgc]

Waybread,
Thanks for that very interesting information!.Because we don't know the *actual* house placements, I've felt unable to really *understand* the role of Ceres.I'm certainly open to considering all theories at this stage.

<It occurred to me after I signed off yesterday that another problem with the sunrise chart is that a planet/oid down into the 4th house can't be observed by telescope, because it is below the horizon. >

That is a very good point.

(Giving a Libran *three* dates from which to choose is a form of torture btw )
Cheers,
Lillyjgc

[waybread]

Hi Lilly, briefly, since my last post, I've done some more reading and have become sceptical of the validity of discovery charts for the early asteroids because the times are an artefact of some astronomy basics, plus the kind of technology used then to see asteroids. Basically, using a land-based telescope, as Piazzi, Olbers, and von Zach did:

1. An asteroid must be discovered at night, because otherwise the sun's rays obscure the heavens. This would necessarily put the sun below the horizon in a horoscope: i. e., in the 1st through 6th houses. Moreover, since the sun's ray's obscure the stars for about an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset, the sun would probably be in the 2nd through 5th houses.

2. Piazzi and the German astronomers who rediscovered Ceres used a "meridian" method, in which the astronomer visualized a celestial arc running from a point at due north on the horizon through the zenith (MC) to a point on the horizon at due south. The astronomer would train his telescope on this meridian, and patiently observe all the heavenly bodies that transited across it. Piazzi himself noted that he found Ceres in this manner, but could see it for only two minutes per night, because his telescope was too cumbersome to move from its meridian-viewing position. What he would have seen from his telescope view was Ceres (retrograde) moving across his telescope field of view.

This meridian method of observation arbitrarily puts the discovery of an asteroid in the 9th or 10th house, fairly close to the MC!!! Indeed, using the 8:00 pm time accepted by the Italian astronomers cited in my previous post puts Ceres in the 10th house. Right on the MC would be 7:50 pm.

3. The Moon was in Cancer in an early 3rd quarter phase, just opposite the sun in Capricorn. So Ceres would have had to have been in the 9th or 10th house, but also nowhere near the moon, which, just past full, would have obscured the nearby heavens with its glow. Around 8:00 pm, the moon was still low in the east, too far from Ceres to obscure its visibility. So considering the moon's position and phase offers another double-check

I think later on, as technology developed, houses in an asteroid discovery chart might mean something, but I think ca. 1801, they were an artefact of some basic astronomy technology.

[Nexus7]

I am maybe a little curious about when Ceres got 'demoted' as a planet, when he asteroids were discovered. In view of the recent redefinings. Wasn't it aound 1844?

The wholething about which new bodies should be included as relevant planets, be they asteroid, centaur or plutino, seems a very Virgoan thing, if not a Ceres thing.