William Lilly's indications of a violent death.Do they work?

[Lost_spirit]

For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/New...rs/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

I don't know of anyone that adopts that, but I'm glad to see you got your game face on.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

That is part of it, yes, but understand that the non-violent Humans Signs (Gemini and Virgo) can indicate violent death, usually of an accidental nature, like you fall down the stairs and land on a pitch fork, or something like that. Could also be an illness transmitted by humans.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

Naturally. Like I said, there's a little more to it than that. The 4th and 7th House also represent Death, specifically the Sect Triplicity Ruler for the 4th Sign, and I say Sign because you need to look at the Signs and not the Houses (unless you're using Whole Sign Houses).

So you're looking at the 4th Sign and the 8th Sign, not necessarily the 4th House and the 8th House.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

Those aren't Lily's rules. He's taken what he thinks are best from Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Omar, Abu Bakr, Masha-allah, Abu Ali and then people Bonatti has culled from like Sarcinator and Zael.

Other than that, yes, they're quite accurate.

[Lost_spirit]

BobZemco thank you for answering this,I appreciate it a lot.According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

I suspected these are not entirely Lilly's rules,but I admit that they make a good set for beginners.I still test them wherever I can and so far they're good.

Apart from these,it's nice to here from a trusted member that they're accurate.

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.

That's probably because Ptolemy is discussing Primary Directions, not the planetary situation in a Natal Chart. If you're researching Death (and it appears you are), then you've probably ran into comments on the Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Ptolemy doesn't use an Alcocoden. Ptolemy's theory is that what is Above Horizon is alive, what is Below Horizon is dead. When looking at the Houses Above Horizon, all of them make aspects to the Ascendant except the 12th and 8th Houses, which are inconjunct the Ascendant.

For Day Chart, where the Sun is Above Horizon, Ptolemy wants to find the Planet that has the most Dignity in the Sun, the pre-Natal New Moon, and the Ascendant. For each of those points, he is looking for a Planet that meets 3 of these 5 conditions: is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or makes a partile or very close applying aspect to the point in question.

So, if the pre-Natal New Moon was at 6° Virgo, the Mercury is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler and Term Ruler, which is at least 3 dignities, and Mercury is a potential Hyleg candidate, assuming Mercury is in the 1st, 11th, 10th, 9th or 7th House of the chart.

If the Ascendant was at 22° Gemini, then Saturn is the Sect Triplicity Ruler and the Term Ruler, and suppose Saturn was at 21° Pisces in the 10th House in square to the Ascending Degree, so that is 3 dignities and Saturn is a potential Hyleg candidate.

It's actually very rare to find a Planet with at least 3 dignities in the Sun, Ascendant or pre-Natal New Moon.

The Houses in order of power are the 10th, 1st, 11th, 7th and 9th. He will take the best one out of the Sun, Moon and any Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant and determine which is the Hyleg.

If the Sun is in the 8th or 12th House, and the Moon is Below Horizon and no Planet meets the dignity conditions, then the Ascendant is automatically the Hyleg (and a Planet Combust cannot be Hyleg either).

For a Night Chart (Sun Below Horizon), Ptolemy is looking for the Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Moon, the pre-Natal Full Moon, or the Lot of Fortune, and again you're looking at the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or a very close applying or partile aspect to one of those 3 points.

If you can't find a Planet, and Moon is in the 8th or 12th House, then the Lot of Fortune is automatically the Hyleg.

Once he finds the Hyleg, then he directs it by Primary Direction. If the Hyleg is in the 7th or 9th House, then he directs it clock-wise to the Descendant (7th House Cusp) and the Arc of Direction (the number of degrees) is how long the Native will live.

That isn't just counting the number of degrees between the Hyleg and the 7th House Cusp, rather you're looking at Temporal Hours to arrive at the 7th House Cusp.

If it's 68°, then the Native lives 68 years. That's modified by the rays of the Benefics and Malefics who come to the Descendant by aspect through Primary Direction. The Benefics add years, the Malefics take away years.

Saturn and Mars (unless one of them happens to be Hyleg) you direct clockwise to the first square, opposition or conjunction of the Descendant, the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter unless one of them is the actually the Hyleg) you direct clock-wise to the first conjunciton, sextile or trine to the Descendant. Again, you're using Temporal Hours not actual degrees, and you add or subtract their Arcs of Direction to the Hyleg's Arc of Direction and that will tell you when the Native dies (and it will be dead on or less than 30 days -- usually within 4 days).

If the Hyleg is not in the 7th or 9th House, you direct it counter clock-wise, and here's where it can be attack by the rays of the Malefics or you can also direct the Malefics to the Hyleg.

The other times, and this is general and not very specific as the Hyleg, is when the Sign Ruler in a Profectional Chart is in very bad condition and in the Solar Return Chart the same Planet is Cadent, or worse yet in the 12th House, and then totally savaged by Mars and Saturn or Combust or where the Sun is Malefic (in square or opposition and not received by the Planet Sun is squaring or opposing), and then Mercury in square or opposition and not received is Malefic as well. That's an indicator of death, but it won't give the the time like Primary Directions will.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

I never paid much attention to that, and again the Sign is important. Being in the 8th House and being in the 8th Sign aren't always the same thing. I have Venus in Cancer in the 8th House, but Cancer is actually the 9th Sign, not the 8th Sign. By Sign (and by Whole Sign Houses) have Mercury and Sun in Gemini in the 8th House.

Also, you have to look at the Sign on the Ascendant. If it's Aries, then Scorpio rules the 8th or is the 8th Sign and if Mars is there, well, it's the same story with Venus and Jupiter when Libra is rising (making Taurus the 8th Sign) or Sagittarius is rising (making Pisces the 8th Sign).

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

Yes.

No, I use the Lot of Death, Ruler Lot of Death, Sect Triplicity Ruler 4th House and the 8th House Ruler and then string them together to tell a story. You can look at this chart.



This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

Because the Hyleg (the Lot of Fortune) is in the 2nd Quardrant (Occidental -- the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses), we direct it to the Descendant.

Just eyeballing the chart, he's not going to live very long, because the Lot of Fortune is going to move very quickly to the Descendant. That's most unfortunate, because he was a great man, but his chart his problematic. He has Antares rising with the Ascendant, but that puts Aldebaran conjunct the Descendant, Moon conjunct Pollux, and Mars conjunct Arcturus (and those conjunctions are 10'-20' of arc).

Lot of Death is at 16° Scorpio. Scorpio is poisons of all kinds, including poison from burning plastics and wiring in the command module where he died (he and others died of smoke inhalation). Ruler Lot of Death is Mars (who is also the 4th House Sect Triplicity Ruler) in Libra, a Human and Violent Sign. Human negligence was involved here, and I suppose some would split hairs over whether or not death was violent, and personally I only see one Human Violent or Violent Sign involved here so I would characterize that as a sudden/frantic death rather than physically violent, and more of an accidental nature.

Many of the Persians would look at Saturn, which happens to be in Pisces and is an indicator of drowning or suffocation (as is Moon in Cancer especially with Moon debilitated by the South Node).

Getting back to life span, without doing all the freaking math, I just want you to how the rays of the Benefics and Malefics intervene. This isn't the actual math, but I just want you to get the gist of the idea.

So you direct the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant, and it's 34° away (again this isn't the actual math I'm using this for illustrative purposes) so that would be 34 years.

Jupiter (moving clock-wise) comes to trine the Descendant at 8° Libra and that's 44 years you would add to the life span. Then Venus (going clock-wise) comes to the trine of the Descendant at 8° Aquarius so you'd add 38 years. Now you subtract the Malefics. Mars comes to the square of the Descendant at 8° Virgo so that's minus 35 years and then Saturn comes to the opposition of the Descendant at 8° Sagittarius so that's minus 82 years and that would be the life span.

Again, you're actually using the Arcs of Direction not the actual degrees.

Looking at the chart, it really wouldn't matter if he was born an hour later or an hour or two earlier, he just didn't have that long to live, it just wasn't part of the plan.

[Lost_spirit]

Bob,your above post is so interesting that I'm considering saving it in a text file as a "how to" manual for charts.

From the methods you describe I understand you're following Ptolemy's techniques,which I found a little complicated when I read them,but thanks to your help they're more clear to me now.I have no problem doing calculations,as long as I'm sure it's the right method and I know the steps.Examples are very helpful,so thank you for this.

I always thought that the Hyleg can only be the Sun and Moon,according to their placement and dignity,and if none of them qualifies,we take either the Ascendant or the Part of Fortune based on whether it's a day or night chart.Having any planet,especially Mars and Saturn as the Hyleg is a new concept and I'm going to test it and see if it works.

That's true,I have a big interest in death in general,and crime as well,it's a very fascinating subject,so I try to dig as deep as I can just in case I find an accurate connection.

I like your methods and I'm going to use them.Thanks for all the info!

[BobZemco]

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

From the methods you describe I understand you're following Ptolemy's techniques,which I found a little complicated when I read them,but thanks to your help they're more clear to me now.

Well, if you study long enough, you'll see where the Greek texts got not so much mistranslated, but the ideas got confused when the Jewish and Iranian Muslims translated them into Arabic. And then later when the Arabic texts are translated into Latin, many ideas get confused again. It wasn't until after the Byzantine Empire collapses that anyone has access to the Greek texts (and that also included biblical texts from the New Testament and a host of other works and histories).

By that time you have 15 different methods of calculating the Hyleg and part of the problem is "Hyleg" which is a transliteration of the Arabic "Hilaj" and the Muslims didn't do just when they translated the word into Arabic. You can see that now with the use of "syzygy" Moon instead of Conjunctional (pre-Natal New Moon) and Preventional (pre-Natal Full Moon). The use of "syzygy" totally destroys the meaning because the Conjunctional and Preventional Moon each have their own meaning in a chart.

Even aspects got butchered. To people like Bonatti and Zael and Ptolemy, a conjunction was a sextile, trine, square or opposition. When two Planets are in the same Sign and Degree, they are joined by body, or corporally joined or corporally joined by body, and that implies something completely different. When a Planet trines another, it's casting its light and rays (literally) at another Planet, but when two Planets are joined by body (what we today call a conjunction) it implies something different, that the energies of those two Planets are merged and you even look at the latitude to see how powerful it is (two Planets a +1° above the Planet of the Ecliptic are more powerful than one Planet at +1° and the other at -4°).

It's the same story with Profections, which got corrupted into today's Solar Arc Directions and Secondary Progressions.

So Bonatti doesn't understand the Hellenistic concept of "Witnessing" and so he allows an 8th House Hyleg, which is totally contrary to the whole point of finding the Hyleg. A Planet in the 8th House is inconjunct the Ascendant and can't "witness" events associated with the 1st House, and that implies no control. Think of wealth and the 2nd House where Jupiter is inconjunct the 2nd House, the Ruler for the Lot of Possessions (Substance) is inconjunct the 2nd House and the Significator of Wealth (the Almuten) is inconjunct the 2nd House. Those Planets can't witness the 2nd House and that implies the Native has no control over their wealth. They cannot create wealth or destroy wealth and they're totally reliant on other people to do that for them. So having an 8th House Hyleg is silly, because the Hyleg would have no connection to the Ascendant, which is the Native's life and health and appearance and such and wouldn't be able to control or influence events associated with the 1st House.

Ptolemy (and other Greeks) say if the Sun is in the 7th House in a Feminine Sign and the Moon is in the 11th House (which would also be a Feminine Sign) then take the Moon as Hyleg. Why? Because the 11th House is more powerful than the 7th House for this purpose (and because the 11th House sextiles the Ascendant while the 7th House opposes the Ascendant). Bonatti doesn't understand that so he says you can't use the Sun in the 7th House in a Feminine Sign at all, ever, but clearly that isn't what the Greeks were saying.

And you have the same problem with "Face." The Greek word actually implies the way a place faces another Planet, ie if it aspects another Planet, but that was corrupted in translation in the Arabic texts to mean Decan as in the Chaldean Decans which are a very weak form of Dignity. So the Greeks were looking at a Planet that aspects the Sun, or pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant, not a Planet that was the Decan Ruler of the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or Ascendant.

I don't know how the Alcocoden came to be exactly. I have a problem using it, because it requires a lot of judgments. For a Planet that aspects the Alcocoden (and you're supposed to take away years or add years based on the Planet and the aspect made) do you use partile or platic aspects? Or Whole Sign aspects? Is the orb 3°, 12° the Planet's orb or the Moeity orb? Do separating aspects count (and I'm not clear with Whole Sign aspects if that includes separating aspects)?

I've been looking at the various methods against charts and I keep coming back to Ptolemy's method, in part because it requires the least amount of judgments, and every time you have to make a decision you're prone to error, so this point his method is most consistent.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

I have no problem doing calculations,as long as I'm sure it's the right method and I know the steps.Examples are very helpful,so thank you for this.

The thing about technololgy is it dumbs people down. We used to calculate charts by hand using the stubby pencil method armed with tables of logarithms and an ephemeris and calculate the 10" wobble and the meridian distance and interpolate the House Cusps and Planet positions. When I finally bought a software program about 14 years ago, I was surprised my math was only off by 0'-15' of arc for House Cusps and Planets.

If you understand the concepts of spherical geometry, the math isn't hard, it's just tedious. You don't really need to know spherical trigonometry (although that helps and then you can calculate your own Right Ascension and Oblique Ascension tables for your Latitude).

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

I always thought that the Hyleg can only be the Sun and Moon,according to their placement and dignity,and if none of them qualifies,we take either the Ascendant or the Part of Fortune based on whether it's a day or night chart.Having any planet,especially Mars and Saturn as the Hyleg is a new concept and I'm going to test it and see if it works.

I thought the same thing as well, because that's what the later Medieval texts and some of the early Medieval texts say (and some of those say a Planet that is Hyleg candidate has to have a least one Dignity in all three points).

Actually, I should just take Chaffee's chart and go through each method to see how accurate they are. I'll post those here periodically when I have time.

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

That's true,I have a big interest in death in general,and crime as well,it's a very fascinating subject,so I try to dig as deep as I can just in case I find an accurate connection.

I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down.

[secsaba]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.

[DreamingTheSeas]

Originally Posted by secsaba

For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.

Finally another person (besides Bobzemco) with knowledge in Ptolemy's! work!!!

[dperez3894]

Originally Posted by Lost_spirit

For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/New...rs/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.

[Lost_spirit]

Originally Posted by dperez3894

Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.

Thank you for your response!It's an interesting observation,but you have to understand that these configurations alone did not cause his death,there must have been something heavier going on at that time,basically by primary directions.Read the above posts by Bobzemco,they are very helpful in understanding Primary Directions.

[BobZemco]

I copied these questions from another thread (because there were too many questions to answer in one sitting) and saved it to Word to answer later, but here are some answers to some of the questions (I can no longer find the thread).

When looking at the Profections and Solar Returns, what do you want see?

Confirmation of the symbolism.

What makes an astrologer say "this is the year"?

A confluence of confirmation.

What is the nature of the testimonies?

Depends on the Planets involved.

Did the past astrologers use the same system?

Primary Directions. What is this? Is this a modern thing or was this practiced by the ancients?

The technique is several thousand years old.

There’s nothing hard about it. Unfortunately, there is no software available, and I would caution you that software that claims to do it is wrong, if not by method then by math. For example, Janus claims to do Primary Directions, but they are FUBAR and totally useless so don’t waste your time. The key is just becoming proficient in the math (which appears daunting but really isn’t), learning the symbolism, knowing the significators and understanding why things work the way they do.

Probably the easiest way to do Primary Directions is to cover them with each of the 14 Judgments or Topics you cover, starting with Life-Span/Longevity. Determine the Almuten for each Topic, read the Chart, then do your Primary Directions. For example, calculate the Almuten of the Father, Almuten of the Mother, then look at their relationship and their relationship with the Ascendant Ruler to see how everyone gets along, then look at your Primary Directions to see what happens to the Native’s parents up to and including Death (and beyond – and yes after they die they can still have Directions in your Chart signifying events, like maybe the wing of a library dedicated in their name, or a memorial or scholarship fund established in their name or something like that).

Here’s a chart with a sad story.






The first thing is find the Hyleg/Hilaj/Releaser or whatever you want to call it. I call it the Life Ruler. There are no Planets Above Horizon and this is a Night Chart so that means the Hyleg/Life Ruler is either the Ascendant or the Lot of Fortune. Since Moon has separated from a conjunction of the Sun and is moving toward the opposition (Full Moon position) that makes this a Conjunctional Chart and the Ascendant is the Hyleg/Life-Ruler. If the Moon would be separating from the opposition to the Sun and moving toward the conjunction (New Moon position), then the Chart would be Preventional and the Lot of Fortune would automatically be the Hyleg/Life Ruler.

So the Ascendant here plays a dual role, it is not only the significator of the Native’s health and things that happen to the Native, but it is also the determiner in the Natives’ Life Span. What we want to do now is use Ascensional Times and Symbolic Directions to narrow down the time frame for any accidents or events that will happen to the Native. The most obvious feature to see symbolically is Ascendant opposition the Lot of Death.

The opposition occurs at 9° Aquarius, but the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury at 6° Aquarius. Is the Ascendant protected or is it naked? You have a naked Ascendant here. The Planets cast their “rays” in 7 directions. “Rays” is an ancient term that comes to us from the Sumerians. Enuma elish… mentions the Planets ensnaring each other with their “rays” and the oldest known text (partial text on broken tablets) dates back to 5,700 BCE. The 7 “rays” are cast to the sinister sextile, sinister square, sinister trine, opposition, dexter trine, dexter square and dexter sextile.

Note that none are cast in the "conjunction."

None of the Benefics cast their “rays” at 9° Aquarius. Likewise, none of the Malefics do either. However, the Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury, and Mercury, while not Malefic here, is Unfortunate being Peregrine and Retrograde (being Peregrine makes Mercury weak, but being Retrograde makes him Unfortunate and weaker still), and the Term is in opposition to the Lot of Death.

To determine the age of the Native here, we need to know the Oblique Ascension of the Ascendant and of 6° Aquarius. There’s a web-site that will calculate those for any Latitude (you can enter 2000 as the year since the Obliquity of the Ecliptic only change a few Seconds of Arc every so many years – in 1938 the Obliquity was 23° 26' 50" just to give you an idea) .

http://www.antonblog.net/tool/generator.html

If I have any doubts about my calculations, I check my tables against his tables and his tables are spot on.

At 6° Aquarius the Oblique Ascension is 321°38’ and the Ascending Degree is 270°55’ and all we do is subtract them.

321°38’
270°55’
----------
xxxxxxx

320°98’
270°55’
----------
050°43’

So the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury in about August 1988 and during the time the Ascendant moves through the Term of Mercury, the Native may be subject to serious accident or injury, or even death.

But, we need confirmation and so we look at the Profectional Charts to see what is happening. In 1989, the Profected Ascendant is Pisces:



If Sagittarius is the Rising Sign, then a Profected Ascendant with Pisces rising would indicate that all Profected Planets are in square with the Natal Planets. That could indicate a year of conflict ranging from just minor irritations the entire year to a total catastrophe, or it could be a year of major challenges.

Since Jupiter is the Year Ruler, we need to look at Jupiter’s condition in the Chart. Jupiter is Peregrine, Cadent, Fast, Occidental, Diurnal, in a Masculine Sign and Degree, in a Feminine Quarter and not impeded by any Planets, nor in aspect to any Planets.

Overall, Jupiter is weak and only mildly Benefic here. One other thing, Jupiter is Feral. I don’t have a lot of experience with Feral Planets, since they are rare. As you can see, it requires that all Planets be in aversion (inconjunct) to the Feral Planet.

That (a Feral Planet), is the original “singleton.” Anything else is just an amateurish imitation.

Once you know the condition of the Year Ruler in the Natal Chart, you simply compare it to its condition in the Solar Return Chart. Year Ruler well-placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Good year. Year Ruler badly placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Bad year. Year Ruler in good condition in the Natal Chart but badly placed in the Solar Return = Not so good year. Year Ruler in bad condition in Natal Chart but in good in the Solar Return = Life is a little better than usual.

Just starting out you can use 30° per year for your Profections, but as you get more advanced, you’ll want to do Profections the correct way using Oblique Ascension. Again, unfortunately, there is no software that correctly calculates Profections, so you’ll have to do it by hand or using a spread-sheet.

Add the double Diurnal Hours of the Ascendant to the Oblique Ascension. The Diurnal Hour is 12°16’ for that Latitude. Sumerian Star Lists measured the distance between Stars in 3 ways, and one way was by Double Hours. I think what they were doing is measuring the arc between two Stars using Double Diurnal Hours (or Double Nocturnal Hours as the case might be).

270° 55' = 15° Sag 45'
295° 27' = 07° Cap 56'
319° 59' = 04° Aqu 01'
344° 31' = 06° Pis 35'
09° 03' = 13° Ari 54'
33° 35' = 18° Tau 08'
58° 07' = 15° Gem 45'

When you cross the Descendant, you’ll have to use the double Nocturnal Hours (17°43’ * 2) .

93° 33' = 18° Can 06'
128° 59' = 17° Leo 28'
164° 25' = 16° Vir 54'
199° 51' = 16° Lib 43'
235° 17' = 16° Sco 18'

And that brings us back to 15° Sag 45’

1 = 15° Sag 45'
2 = 07° Cap 56'
3 = 04° Aqu 01'
4 = 06° Pis 35'
5 = 13° Ari 54'
6 = 18° Tau 08'
7 = 15° Gem 45'
8 = 18° Can 06'
9 = 17° Leo 28'
10 = 16° Vir 54'
11 = 16° Lib 43'
12 = 16° Sco 18'

There appears to be a problem because…

(1) 1987 = 15° Sag 45'
(2) 1988 = 07° Cap 56'
(3) 1989 04° Aqu 01'
(4) 1990 = 06° Pis 35'

…it would seem Aquarius is the Profected Ascendant making Saturn the Year Ruler in 1989 instead of Pisces/Jupiter.

But that isn’t so. If you look, you see that the Profected Year for 1990 starts at 06° Pisces. Since the birth date is January 6, that means Pisces took over sometime in late November or early December of 1989. That means Saturn handed off the Year Ruler to Jupiter in the very last part of 1989 as the Profected Ascendant entered Pisces.

So let’s look at the Solar Return:





Year Ruler Jupiter is Cadent, Peregrine, Retrograde, in the Term of a Malefic (Mars) and in trine to the Sun without Reception. Jupiter is Unfortunate and weak. Note the Sun who is the Dispositor of the Lot of Death in the Natal Chart is conjunct the Lot of Death in the Solar Return. Note that Saturn rules the 8th House, Venus is the first Triplicity Ruler of the 4th House and that Saturn and Venus are conjunct each other’s Antiscia Point.

Mercury is the Ascendant Ruler in the Solar Return Chart and the Directed Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury in the Natal Chart. Mercury is Peregrine and Retrograde so he’s Unfortunate in the Natal Chart.

In the Solar Return Chart, Mercury is Peregrine, Out-of-Sect, Cadent, in the Term of a Malefic (Saturn) and worse than that, conjunct his own North Node at 3° Aqu. Mercury is extremely Unfortunate here.

One other thing. The placement of the Year Ruler determines how active the year is. When the Year Ruler is inconjunct the Ascendant, it will not be an active year. Given than he spent 95% of the year in a coffin, I would say he wasn’t exactly a busy bee that year.

So we have our confirmation.

Now, we need to see if there are any Primary Directions that would indicate death. There are two. One is Mars to the body of Sun and the other is Moon square Jupiter.

We’ll do Moon square Jupiter first. Moon is the Significator, and the Jupiter Square Point is the promise. There are two points from which Jupiter forms a square and that is 3° Scorpio (the converse Direction) and 3° Taurus (the direct Direction – in the order of Signs) We’ll use 3° Taurus.

Right Ascension of 3° Tau 54’ is 31.65319°
Oblique Ascension is 22.80533°
Declination is 12.82242°
Ascensional Difference (RA – OA) = 8.84786°
That makes the Semi-Diurnal Arc 98.84786°
Meridian Distance (RAIC – RA) is 30.70517°
Semi-Diurnal Arc divided by 6 gives us a Temporal Hour of 16.47464°
Meridian Distance divided by the Temporal Hour gives us the Hourly Distance: 1.86378°

Now it’s just a matter of plugging in the numbers.

Arc of Direction = Hourly Distance (Jupiter Square Point) – Hourly Distance (Moon) * Temporal Hours (Jupiter Square Point)

Arc of Direction = (1.86378 + 1.28833) * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 3.15211 * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 51.92987

Sun we’ll move in Mundo to the square of Mars (I don't think I've covered in Mundo Directions yet).

The square point of Mars is 6 Hours away (1 House away is inconjunct; 2 Houses away is sextile; and 3 Houses away is square -- each House equals 2 Hours) at 11° Gemini. How long does it take Sun to travel to that point? We’ll take the Hourly Distance of Mars, add 6 Hours then subtract the Hourly Distance of the Sun, then multiply that by the Sun’s Temporal Hours.

Arc of Direction = [Hourly Distance (Mars) + Aspect Point – Hourly Distance (Sun)] * Temporal Hours (Sun)

Arc of Direction = 1.11331 + 6 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 7.11331 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 2.93274 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 51.95216

Okay, so those are pretty close.

Moon square Jupiter works out to:

51.92987

51 years + 0.92987 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.15844 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 4 days

The date of birth is Jan 6 so add 11 months and we get December 6 then add 4 days and we get December 10.

Sun square Mars works out to:

51 years + 0.95216 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.42592 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 12 days

Again since the birth is Jan 6 we add 11 months to get to December 6 then add 12 days which is December 18

So our Directions gives us December 10 and December 18.

I do not in any way condone the use of Pukipedia, but suffice to say:

On December 11, 1989, Lindsay committed suicide with a rifle blast to his head. He was 51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Crosby

This guy was the son of Bing Crosby, the famous crooner, you know "White Christmas" and then all of those "On the Road to....[wherever]" films with Bob Hope.

If you notice, the Lot of Wealth is square Mercury and Venus and the Almuten of Wealth Saturn is inconjunct the Lot.

I don't really want to get into that, because I'm going to do that on another thread, but he never really had it like the Old Man. His career never got off the ground really. Both his parents were alcoholics and his mother died of alcoholism early on, and being a "mama's boy" never got over it.

He wasn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, but he never made the money his father did.

A few points in the Natal Chart that can be addressed further. Jupiter is the Almuten of Death. I use the method by Abu Bakr, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi. That is the 7th House, 8th House, 8th House Ruler, Sect Ruler 4th House Cusp, Lot of Death, Dispositor Lot of Death, and Saturn.

I've tried using Bonatti's (and I believe he uses Omar's method) but it just doesn't work.

In addition to being the Almuten of Death, Jupiter rules the 4th House, Moon rules the 8th House and Mars is the Sect Triplicity Ruler of both the 4th and 8th House (and Mercury rules the 7th House).

If you note in the Natal chart you see the Moon/Mars aspect and then you see it again in the Solar Return.

What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

Look at this chart:






You see the Moon/Mars aspect when the National Football League Players Association Collective Bargaining Agreement ended and was not renewed.

Note here that Mercury is the Sect Triplicity Ruler for the 4th Sign, Aquarius and that Moon/Mars are actually in the 5th Sign/House (sports, public venues, entertainment etc etc).

Here’s the Aries Ingress for the US for 1963. President Kennedy was assassinated that year.






Mars rules the Midheaven and is conjunct the Descendant with Moon Unfortunate because of the South Node conjunct the Ascendant opposing Mars.

Gotta love astrology.

So, let’s put aside the childish goofiness with “emotions and energy” and start using the adult symbolism. You'll see that a lot, if not in Natal Charts then in Solar Returns and Mundane Charts.

Anyway that should give you an idea of how to put things together. I was having a PM discussion about Feral Planets and was distraught because I searched and couldn't find any so I had to make one up, then yesterday I came across this chart with the Feral Jupiter and saw the Moon/Mars thing and just had to look at it.

[Lost_spirit]

Hey Bobzemco,I haven't had the time to be in the forum or "investigate" on the subject for a while cause I've been busy working,but I wanted to thank you for your input to this thread,it means a lot.I will give it a better look when I get the chance.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by BobZemco

What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

That would actually make your point rather succinctly (and memorably!)

Moon rules stomach, Mars provides irritation, upset. (Perhaps after partaking of a bit too much Venus and Jupiter. ) Et voila: barf! (Just don't do it in the 4th House, you'll never get it off the carpet!)

[viola magmar]

quoting from BobZemco:


"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.

[viola magmar]

Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by viola magmar

quoting from BobZemco:

"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.

Originally Posted by viola magmar

Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao

Bob Zemco has not posted on our forum for approximately the past 1ighteen months and is much missed

- no forum member seems to have any news of him either -

there is a thread on the subject of "Where is BobZemco?" at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42191 and some of the speculation concerns whether his sudden 'disappearance' from the forum is possibly connected to his somewhat direct responses and comments which led to many of his posts being deleted by moderators due to their 'incendiary' nature. Perhaps someday BobZemco shall return

[viola magmar]

How sad. Such a valuable astrologer. Thank you for notifying me.

viola magmar

[LonelyRed]

I find this all very interesting as well, considering that death is a subject I haven't considered broaching too deeply, as someone who has more experience in "Modern Astrology," and doesn't know too much about the more traditional stuff. I am just young, and have had only about ten years experiences with being even able to handle Astrology, so I don't have anything against, so-to-speak, other kinds of Astrology, I just have only had most significant exposure to Modern.

With that said, I have a question about Hylegs, since I've just been reading and following along somewhat. This post may get moved, which is fine, I just thought I'd post it here, since BobZemco seems to be very familiar with this term, and his references.

My questions are then, as follows, BobZemco, you mentioned that part of the formula used to deduce when a death can occur, which involved finding the Hyleg, according to I believe Ptolemy or Lilly (or Lilly using Ptolemy), included the pre-natal New Moon. I did some research of my own, admittedly very brief, about Hylegs, and it said the prenatal component could be either the New Moon or Full Moon. As I am reading this, I just want to know what you think of that, is that still what William Lilly says? Does Lilly say anything about what happens when the person is born on the new moon? (Or full moon, if appropriate).

[LonelyRed]

was my question too off-topic and that was why no one answered?

I wanted to know what to make of a Hyleg if one was born on the Full Moon or New Moon.