Exhaltations, falls and domiciles in horary

juicey J.

Banned
In essential dignities if a planet has both exalted and triplicity lordships (at least according to rob hand) it trumps domicle. So for example in the chart of Adolf Hilter (who was a libra rising) his ruler isn't venus but rather his Saturn in leo which, has both exalted and triplicity lordship over his rising.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
Re: are these 2 gonna start dating before april?

The triplicity rulers I only learned like a few months ago. Like the sun is day ruler of all fire signs and Jupiter the night ruler. venus is day ruler of all earth signs and the moon the night ruler. saturn is the day ruler of all air sign and mercury the night ruler. Mars is triplicity ruler of water no mater the time of day.

Those would be Ptolemy's Ptriplicities which I don't use. The Dorothean System has three Triplicity Rulers, which makes more sense, and in that scheme, Venus and Moon rule water, Mars participates, and Venus and Mars rule Earth, and Moon participates.

Much of Natal and Horary makes use of three Triplicity Rulers and the Fidaria makes use of Terms, and you can't use Ptolemy's Pterms or Ptriplicities with those systems.

In a Natal Chart, the three Triplicity Rulers of the Ascendant show the general tenor for each 1/3 of the native's life. If the 1st Triplicity Ruler is bad condition and impeded, then the first 1/3 of the native's life will be the same: in bad condition with lots of impediments.

The Directed Ascendant in the Terms modifies that. So maybe the first 1/3 of the Native's life is bad, but the Directed Ascendant to the Term of Mars with Mars in good condition and not Malefic would show the Native perseveres in spite of the bad things that happen, or maybe to the Term of Jupiter who is well placed shows the Native's suffering is tolerable and perhaps in the end, not completely harmful.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GET TECHNICAL. Not only do you have all these and the terms and faces but you also have the profections (not to be confused with perfections) and the time lords.

Those are used with Natal. I know of no one who uses them with Horary.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
It is a great book! Remember though that it is interpolated by its 5th century Pahlavi translator and its later 8th (or 9th) century translator. But everything in it is of value and illustrates Greco/Roman, Persian and early Islamic outlooks and methodologies.
 

juicey J.

Banned
Re: are these 2 gonna start dating before april?

Those would be Ptolemy's Ptriplicities which I don't use. The Dorothean System has three Triplicity Rulers, which makes more sense, and in that scheme, Venus and Moon rule water, Mars participates, and Venus and Mars rule Earth, and Moon participates.

Much of Natal and Horary makes use of three Triplicity Rulers and the Fidaria makes use of Terms, and you can't use Ptolemy's Pterms or Ptriplicities with those systems.

In a Natal Chart, the three Triplicity Rulers of the Ascendant show the general tenor for each 1/3 of the native's life. If the 1st Triplicity Ruler is bad condition and impeded, then the first 1/3 of the native's life will be the same: in bad condition with lots of impediments.

The Directed Ascendant in the Terms modifies that. So maybe the first 1/3 of the Native's life is bad, but the Directed Ascendant to the Term of Mars with Mars in good condition and not Malefic would show the Native perseveres in spite of the bad things that happen, or maybe to the Term of Jupiter who is well placed shows the Native's suffering is tolerable and perhaps in the end, not completely harmful.



Those are used with Natal. I know of no one who uses them with Horary.


No, in the dorthean system mars isn't the participating ruler of water the moon is. Venus is water's day ruler and mars the night ruler. Also, in the dorthean system the moon isn't the participating ruler of earth, mars is. Venus is day ruler of earth and the moon is night ruler. The only differences between dorthean and ptolemy is dorithean uses three rulers and uses a different day ruler for water. Because of such some astrologers including rob hand say they both more or less work equally well.
 
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juicey J.

Banned
It is a great book! Remember though that it is interpolated by its 5th century Pahlavi translator and its later 8th (or 9th) century translator. But everything in it is of value and illustrates Greco/Roman, Persian and early Islamic outlooks and methodologies.

Its a book that's top on my list of astrology books to read before I die. I understand dorotheus was an actual astrologer were as ptolemy was merley a scholar and didn't practice the art.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I understand dorotheus was an actual astrologer were as ptolemy was merley a scholar and didn't practice the art.

This is correct. Ptolemy did not practice astrology, but collated various astrological/astronomical references and systematized them within an Aristotelian worldview framework.
The other authorities from the Greco/Roman period were (with the exception of Porphyry) all practitioners of the Celestial Art: Manilius, Dorotheus of Sidon, Vettius Valens, Firmicus Maternus, Rhetorius and others. These authors told us how they DID things, rather than giving us theoretical frameworks...
 

tikana

Well-known member
Ptolemy did practice astrology and was an astrologer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ptolemy


"Ptolemy's astrological outlook was quite practical: he thought that astrology was like medicine, that is conjectural, because of the many variable factors to be taken into account: the race, country, and upbringing of a person affects an individual's personality as much if not more than the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets at the precise moment of their birth, so Ptolemy saw astrology as something to be used in life but in no way relied on entirely. " http://www.museumstuff.com/learn/topics/Claudius_Ptolemaeus::sub::Astrology
 

juicey J.

Banned
I though ptolemy was only an astrologer in the scholary/theoritical sense rather then in the practicing/applied sense at least this is what I heard. Also, often a person's ubringing is reflected in the chart, as above so below as below so above.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I refer you to various historical studies in astrology relating to the fact that Ptolemy was an astrological system-maker rather than an actual practicing astrologer. In Ms Houlding's article on Ptolemy (skyscript.com) she states that, ..."Ptolemy achieved his reputation through his ASTRONOMICAL accomplishment" (capitals mine)...Even the Wikipedia article describes Ptolemy's astrological theories and system-making as only a part of his overall work in several fields, and that his astrological material is largely devoid of examples of specific practice and provided more of a general frame of astrological reference rather than much in the way of explicit "how to" instructions, although Ptolemy does give examples of the application of some of these principles in the Tetrabiblios.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
We can't be too categorical about Ptolemy because none of his original works have come down to us; we only know of him through later copies of his works, and especially from comments on them (Tetrabiblos) by the philosopher Porphyry (an excellent new translation of Porphyry's copy and comments on Ptolemy's Tertabiblos is available from astroamerica.com) Ptolemy MIGHT have been an active practicing astrologer, however the historical information we have about him and his life tends to suggest otherwise.
 
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tikana

Well-known member
I though ptolemy was only an astrologer in the scholary/theoritical sense rather then in the practicing/applied sense at least this is what I heard. Also, often a person's ubringing is reflected in the chart, as above so below as below so above.

Every astrologer does look into someone's upbringing when he/she is looking into someone's chart in depth ESP when he/she is dealing with rectification. let's say this, two ppl born on the same day month year time and the city, they will end up having 2 diff fates because too many issues involved like mother, father, grandparents, uncles aunts, whatever. The biggest 2 astroresearches were done on the Tudors and current royal english families. I think there is a book on it as a matter of fact, princess Diana is a related to Mary Boleyn. mary boleyn had a son supposevely out of a wedlock from Henry the 8th, who had a daughter Elizabeth the virgin queen, with Anne Boleyn. If you start comparing charts of all Tudor related royals, you would see that the family patterns are repeating. *NONE of tudor related family members had an easy fate".
The recorded date births of the Tudor family only started with Henry 7th of England, father of Henry the 8th. Henry the 8th had 6 other siblings : I am sure their birth times are recorded and stored in England's library or something. Even if you look at Mary, daughter of Cathrine of Aragon and compare it to Elizabeth The virgin queen, Edward VI son of Jane Seymour (another wife of henry 8th) you would see how the family dynamics worked esp invovling their father.

In modern days, in some cases, one twin is loved more than the other. Will it show in a chart when the time of birth is SOOO Close? Probably not without looking with a microscope. Ptolemy may not have been a person who looked into a future but that doesnt make him non-astrologer. There is another twist to this, in England there was an interesting case, twins married each other. Boy and girl - twins, were separated at birth and adopted by 2 diff families, somehow they met, fell in love and got married. Some people specialize in natal, some ppl are into transits, some ppl are into horary, others are into synastry. Some astrologers are just into a theory. According to wiki the definition of an astrologer states "In the far past, the role often entailed astronomical observation or manual calculation of celestial phenomena"
Also keep in mind that astrology and astronomy were one of the same.
Ptolemy worked out astrological aspects, which are known as Ptolemaic aspects. Stating from wiki "The traditional major aspects are sometimes called Ptolemaic aspects since they were defined and used by Ptolemy in the 1st Century, AD. These aspects are the conjunction (approx. 0-10°), sextile (60°), square (90°), trine (120°), and opposition (180°). "
What he might have done is work out the mathematical aspects and put it into a practice just to workout the mechanics but not directly bother with people who would nag him with "read my chart!" drama.

Ptolemy's astrology was to use astronomy to predict astrology *roughly explained*
In Tetrabiblos, he defined astrology and astronomy to be 2 diff entities and to be incomparable. Nothing new here!
Astronomy - physical .. astrology - more psychological mixed with astronomical bodies in the cosmos.
His 2nd book that is known to be written by Ptolemy was Almagest.
For ppl who claim that HE IS NOT as practicing astrologer, that is nothing short of ridiculous. How can someone write about a specific subject without understandng what he/she is writing about? He probably analyzed many charts and wrote 2 astrology related books not mentioning his Geography book. Otherwise, why write statements mentioning upbringing and etc.
Just because he didnt write astro cook book. he is not an astrologer? Did he need to? Not really. He clearly understood that when a planet X is in certain house or sign, many people would have however it will not have the same effect on everyone. Were there other books written by him? PROBABLY yes, lost in time perhaps?

L8er
T
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Regardless of Ptolemy's activities or where he got his material, Ptolemy represents the most important single authority in Greco/Roman (and later Islamic and European Medieval) astrological literture and the BASIC tenets he elaborated remain as foundational in the astrological practices of all Western schools, whether neo-hellenic, traditionalist or Modernist. It was Ptolemy who first clearly differentiated the signs from the constellations, and who emphasized that the signs-not the constellations-is the zodiacal framework to be applied in primary astrological delineations (he recognized the value of stars and constellations but clearly differentiated between them and the signs)
 

juicey J.

Banned
Tikana, of course up bringing is used in chart rectification this is what I meant by the upbringing is in part reflected in the chart. Also, lots of stress aspects (especially to the malefics) between the charts of twins would show intense sibling rivalry. The way synastry works is one might have compartively as much if not more in common with someone born on a different date then someone born the same day and time. Say for example two people have gemini 9th with mercury the ruler square to mars. This would show both have in common intellectuizing matters of philosphy and being quite intellectually agressive when arguing their view points but since the others mercury squares the others mars there will be much in these matters they wil disagree and argue over. ITS PAST TIME THE MYTH OF ASTRO TWINS BEING EXACTLY ALIKE (although somewhat depending on the synastry some are quite similar) OR THE MYTH ASTROLOGY SUBCRIBES TO SUCH BS STOPS. The caps are my shouting at the world not you.
 
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juicey J.

Banned
Now, social class does play a definite part in what Tikana is talking about. I heard of a black smith and a king born on the same day and about 2 minutes off from the other. The black smith opened his shop the same day the king was crowned and both married and died the exact same days.
 
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