synastry & divorce

EJ53

Banned
I no longer take much notice of synastry either.

I find synastry very useful in determining why any two people are experiencing friction/misunderstandings/etc.............But, life experiences/backgrounds/cultures/etc seem to play a bigger part than natal characteristics in determing why two people might be attracted to each other (and/or stay together).

In synastry, we are comparing the birthcharts of two adults who are very likely to have been changed by their life experiences......And those couples that have become individually conscious of their "unconscious behavioural problems" are less likely to suffer the relationship issues revealed by comparing natal charts.......However, synastry can reveal whether or not any two people are experiencing problems because of their subconscious/instinctive behavioural patterns.
 
Lillyj
So I think it pays to look at a chart on an individual basis. Forget cookbooks. Forget *easy answers*. My experience is if the charts of REAL PEOPLE dont bear it out, then its not valid. There's no substitute for doing the hard work. Go look at the charts you have and check out for yourselves what *works* and what doesnt.

SO, there has to be a starting point for people, there are lots and lots of books and synastry and they can't all be wrong. This thread is about 'starting points' and everyone can contribute to add to other people's knowledge and experience.

Also when we look at the signs planets are in for example sun/mars for women, I don't feel it means look for that star sign alone, it means look for someone who has those 'traits' they could have their Asc, Node, Vertex or moon, venus in similar signs. For example, pisces, gemini and libra are all restless procrastinating and indecisive signs, cancer & virgo born worriers etc etc....
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Just my 2c-worth.

I am not a big fan of pop astrologers who stereotype signs by saying things like, [Venus in] "Libra is tease; Gemini is flirtatious and Aquarius wants friendship." or "Taurus only 1 amour at time wined/dined; Virgo can nag, have hang ups & wants to know ‘have you had a wash first’; Capricorn wants status, emotional/ financial security & is romantically rather selective."

As anyone who studies astrology above a newbie level knows, you really have to look at the whole chart and the whole individual. I am all for astro-humour, but these stereotypes really do a disservice to people who may be configured very differently.

And we really do not need them to learn astrology at a beginner's level.

A really good astrologer, Stephen Arroyo (Astrology, Psychology, and the Four Elements, a great book for newbies), looked at the role that the 4 elements play in people''s lives, and he argues that the elements basically tell you what is real for people. Feelings are very real for people with a lot of water in their charts, for example; whereas the excitement of ideas would characterize someone with a lot of fire and air placements.

With Venus in a water sign, according to Arroyo (Person-to-Person Astrology), the person is able to and yearns to identify with the other person's feelings. A sensitive, empathic sense of merging with the other person is desired. With Venus in an air sign,the factor of physical and emotional closeness is less important than the ability to truly communicate with one another.

Also, I find sometimes that long-term loving couples have dubious synastry, but if you look at their midpoint composite chart, it usually tells a different and more supportive story. I am not sure why this should be the case, but the former is about two individuals encountering one another; whereas the latter is about them as a couple.

Some good books on couples astrology for newcomers are the Arroyo book noted above; Steven and Jodie Forrest, Skymates [2 vols]; and Robert Hand, Planets in Composite.
 
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wintersprite1

Premium Member
More rubbish has been written about Astrology than almost any other subject.Perhaps that's what's made it so easy for the sceptics.
lillyjgc
__________________

People will believe what they want to believe.... and they will manipulate Astrology to fit into what they want to see.

I still regret a blog that I have written... I haven't deleted it because I am hoping that after the visit the reader will continue on and read more articles. I compiled a list of "soulmate" aspects from around the web and from books.... I started the blog off with a sentence, "Sometimes soulmate means sleeping with a knife under the pillow"... no one seems to notice that line. The long list is full of different synastry conjunctions. I find that I am written to all of the time and on other forums I see quotes of how they found their Soulmates.... I can tell you one thing, after that long list and the mail I get with their own personal lists.... I don't have proof of anyone maintaining a relationship with such conjunctions... it appears the feelings are there, but it is probably too intense for anything to happen.

This is what happens when we take cookbook information and then it viral gets passed on by other Astrologers. The crux of most synastry programs now rests on the conjunction... and until recently, the Astrologers of yesteryear reminded us, A conjunction is a HARD aspect.... and now synastry seems to be based on having as many of those as possible!!! A conjunction in the charts would be like a spot in the Zodiac that is so focused on (like an ant having sunlight focused thru a magnifying glass) that the degree is a hotspot and cause for trouble if the natives are not comfortable with their ownself.

I guess where I am going with this is that we first have to agree on many basics before we can blindly apply them for everyone. In real life, I adore Libras, my first husband, my father, my daughter's moon..... and others.... but synastry would say that is a no no.... Libra is square my Sun and my Moon and opposed my Jupiter.... that makes a Grand Cross with the other person... and that isn't remotely covered in synastry books out there.

So what can we do as Astrologers? Not much really, other than to live up to our own ethics and morals.... cause people will turn to other things anyway such as reading animal entrails if they are inclined to try to write destiny.

TK
 
A7,
On this forum, EVERYONE is allowed to freely express their astrological views no matter what level they are at, and the least the others try to grade another co-member's level, the better it is.

Oh, and personally, I find synastry a great tool to understand how two people might relate to eachother.

Well said, finally some common sense....:sleeping:

Everyone is interested in synastry and we all have to start somewhere. In my opinion the aim of this forum should be to encourage members to grow and learn more about astrology and themselves in the process. That's why I give so many links in my posts so members can research for themselves what other authors, sites and people say about certain aspects of astrology, rather than just 'drop the answer in their laps'

This is increasingly hard when senior members criticise and knock astrology as being just 'cookbooks' as starlink said, cookbooks are very useful and necessary for people learning. Learning astrology can take years and you never really finish learning as it's all ongoing anyway.

Maybe I will put a caveat at the end of synastry posts like:
[[You could have the best synastry in the world, but unless you have good communications, are honest with each other about your needs, wishes and desires and 'both' of you want the same things...........then nothing will happen. It cannot make anyone change, or love you more. Some challenging squares, oppositions in synastry can be healthy, and may require one or both of you to grow in some way. Astrological natal charts cannot explain environmental factors, financial handicaps/ restraints and what position you hold in society, neither can it tell you if you are of ‘Royalty’ or beggar.]]

I am of the belief that people come in and out of our lives for a reason, either we have to teach them something or we have to learn something from them. There is Always an exchange,a Learning Lesson for good or bad.
Waybread,

There are some great books for beginners that take a more dynamic, active approach, such as the Stephen Arroyo books cited in my previous post, as well as Steven Forrest's books, The Inner Sky, The Changing Sky, and Skymates [the latter with Jodie Forrest--and also her super book The Ascendant.] Arroyo uses the four elements as his starting point. If we understand the nature of the elements, then a lot of the more static check-list items of astrology make a lot more sense, because there is an explanation behind them.

Forrest looks at each planet, sign, and house as having a kind of goal or end-point. Each of them also has a kind of strategy or tool kit with which to accomplish its goal

A really good astrologer, Stephen Arroyo (Astrology, Psychology, and the Four Elements, a great book for newbies), looked at the role that the 4 elements play in people''s lives, and he argues that the elements basically tell you what is real for people. Feelings are very real for people with a lot of water in their charts, for example; whereas the excitement of ideas would characterize someone with a lot of fire and air placements.

The elements, quadruplicities and angular,cadent and succeedant houses are prob next step for learners and with great quotes like this one maybe more will be encouraged to go deeper......

Seems a shame more members don't quote these books as reference for people learning astrology for further study and research when posting
 
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Lillygc,
So I think it pays to look at a chart on an individual basis. Forget cookbooks. Forget *easy answers*. My experience is if the charts of REAL PEOPLE dont bear it out, then its not valid. There's no substitute for doing the hard work. Go look at the charts you have and check out for yourselves what *works* and what doesnt.I have cancer on the descendent. I am NOT attracted to cancerian men. At all.I would never marry one.My mars would be opposite their sun quite possibly.
Its a lot more complicated than looking at the sign on the descendent.

This is bit like saying if you use Tarot cards, go do a reading for yourself. BUT when you do this, you tend to read into it what you want to see. You simply cannot get enough objectivity to 'see clearly' where and what the problems are.

So rather than say go study the charts more, I prefer to give links and actually try to help people, steer them in the right direction for answers. I know lots of people come here and simply want the answer dropped in their laps without any effort themselves.

When people come here in synastry forum they are usually 'desparate' for help and guidance or simply just want to understand what's going on. Everyone has different methods of helping some more positive than others:love:
 

EJ53

Banned
AQ7 said:
......I find synastry a great tool to understand how two people might relate to each other.

Yes.

When confrontations arise on the forum between myself and another, (if their birth data is available) I do a synastry comparison of our two charts to determine what I might learn about myself and my subconscious behaviour.......So far, I have invariably found that there has indeed been a lesson for me to learn.......(and the other as well, but that's solely their own responsibility.)

To me, that's how synastry should be used.......not for matchmaking.....but as an aid to peacemaking and self-development.

EJ:smile:
 
[Moderator edit - Post not required anymore, as a new thread has been started on the 'Recommendations' board re "Discussion of Cookbooks"]
 
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Lillyj


SO, there has to be a starting point for people, there are lots and lots of books and synastry and they can't all be wrong. This thread is about 'starting points' and everyone can contribute to add to other people's knowledge and experience.

Also when we look at the signs planets are in for example sun/mars for women, I don't feel it means look for that star sign alone, it means look for someone who has those 'traits' they could have their Asc, Node, Vertex or moon, venus in similar signs. For example, pisces, gemini and libra are all restless procrastinating and indecisive signs, cancer & virgo born worriers etc etc....

I am going to wholeheartedly agree with astrologer50 on this one. I haven't read the next page of posts yet. I agree that the person doesn't have to be the sign of our Mars etc. This would be stepping into "Sun sign" astrology. As Astro50 was saying it can be the traits of our Mars sign or Sun sign/aspects. I have also seen Saturn and Uranus aspects present at times of a breakup as Astro50 was explaining, in my personal life and in other lives as well. Nobody is saying these aspects are there "all the time" but there is a high occurance of them around breakups. For example Britney separated from Justin Timberlake under transiting Saturn opposite her natal Sun in Sagittarius.

This is what I had written about the transits at the time:

Both Britney and Justin share a Venus square Pluto aspect, when love and hate collide, powerful feelings are involved which can lead to strong vehement if love ends in betrayal. The relationship was the perfect childhood romance, and it ended painfully for both of them. The relationship broke up in early 2002; transiting Saturn in Gemini opposed her natal Sun in Sagittarius. Harsh reality and separation (Saturn) with an important male figure in her life (Sun). I do not think Britney was expecting the break-up, and she would have been feeling depressed and downhearted about life and the future.

Under the Federline Divorce:

Britney filed for divorce from Federline in November 2006 citing irreconcilable differences. She wanted legal custody of her two boys, and Federline responded by fighting for sole custody of the children. Transiting Uranus in 6th squared her natal Sun directly at this time. The transit describes her life being disrupted (Uranus) with sudden developments and altered circumstances. The rebellion had begun, and Britney wanted to be free from limiting circumstances, and she began making radical changes in her life.

Transiting Pluto was conjunct natal Neptune, and the configuration squared her natal Mars in Virgo in the 12th house. Mars-Pluto can indicate sexual troubles in a marriage, aggression and fighting for control. The aspect often involves ego-conflicts and violent eruptions. Britney had an uncompromising desire to assert her own will, and all hell broke loose. This configuration landed on her natal Mars-Neptune aspect, and this aspect describes her poor sense of boundaries around her powers of assertion. Britney’s aunt died in early 2007 from ovarian cancer. This was a painful time for Britney, they had a close relationship. Transiting Neptune squared her natal Chiron in 8th indicating an extremely bitter, wounded and emotional time for Britney. All her dreams for marriage were gone, and she lost a family member who she loved and valued. Emotional wounds can resurface at this time (Chiron 8th), needing to be healed.

The Astrological reasoning of Astro50's posts are sound to me, and I have seen these influences. Since the education board still needs more articles perhaps her post could be moved there. I found it helpful as did others, it works for me :smile:.
 

starlink

Well-known member
How would an astrologer be able to tell from looking at synastry charts whether there will be a divorce? or whether the couple would be separated by death? or family duties? or many other separative influences?

You can't predict any of these. The hard Venus-Uranus aspects should be understood differently. They are called typical divorce aspects, because often, when hit by transiting Uranus especially, but also by Saturn to that Venus, some sort of divorce from a loved one can happen, but which of the above it is, we cannot tell, (divorce or death). However, a divorce does not necessarily have to happen with these aspects in the birthchart.

Transits to the Uranus-Venus aspect can trigger an urge for freedom in a relationship, not necessarily divorce. These urges usually do not come out of the blue, they build up because of unexpressed anger, disappointment,boredom, feeling that things get too much, kids, husband/wife etc., but the problem nowadays is that people cannot communicate within a marriage anymore and opt for divorce or a temporary separation, instead of talking about their necessities at that moment.

But divorce or separation does not have to happen at all under these aspects. Certain aspects within the marriage or relationship (business relationships as well) probably need change and when people can talk about these things, then these changes can work out well (usually with trine or sextiles). It can be more difficult with the squares, and here the astrologer, I believe, can help people who go through these transits or even beforehand.

And what would be the point/value in making such a prediction?

There is absolutely no point in predicting such events. The only thing we can do is explain to the client that there is a basic necessity of personal freedom in relationships present in their psyche and should Venus or Uranus be transited or aspected by Uranus, Mars also and Saturn, there could be an urge for this person to walk out on things or stirr up trouble in some way which then could lead to a separation if the partners dont speak openly about their problems.

The client should be made understood by the astrologer, that when transits hit one of the two planets involved, this aspect in their psyche will be temporarily activated which could lead to problems.They should be told that the best thing they can do is to talk with their partner about this. With a good marital/business understanding/basis , no form of divorce has to take place and trouble can be overcome, but I have always seen that some sort of itch happening when these transits occur.

Now for separation through death, also other progressions and transits should be active in the chart. We have to look at those always. Warning someone that a loved one could die is a big no no in my book. But twice I have had clients who told me that one of their parents were ill and if they should go and visit them (parents lived abroad) . I always tell them to go, no matter what, just not to feel guilty in case something should happen to them. In both cases shortly after, the parents died, so they were very grateful that I convinced them to go.
You can always be vague about these things and maybe just mention that changes within the family are possible during certain transits.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
'Cookbook' posts:- moved to "Discussion of Cookbooks" thread.

ALL,

I have moved all posts that focused more on discussing the subject of 'cookbooks' to the Recommendations forum: Discussion on 'Cookbooks'.

Since there were some posts, which started off by discussing the aforementioned topic in detail, but made some mention of "synastry and divorce" towards the end; I have copied such relevant portions as quotes below. For your convenience, there is not only the link available to the thread: Discussion on 'Cookbooks', where you may find the complete posts, but also the word POST - right at the beginning of the quotes (below) that will lead you direct to the original post, where the excerpts are coming from. This is the best I could do to link both the threads for you to be able to better follow where what is coming from.

:)AQ7

Starlink said:
POST About synastry.
I think synastry has its place, but I don't think it should make or break a relationship; as I explained on another thread, synastry provides good bone structure but it really is up to the individuals involved: their beliefs, their upbringings, their physical chemistry (pheromones and hormones) that will shape the relationship and the people's experiences of it.
I fully agree with you AG, I dont like synastry that much,personally, it most often than not does not correspond to the real situation. Two separate charts tell me heaps more about a couple and you can warn them for certain character traits of the other person. Telling them: "your mars falls conjunct his Asc. so he finds you aggressive" or "he finds that you energize him" does not help much. People must understand why that Mars of her energizes him. How does she express that Mars.

But, everyone must choose what he likes best and can write what he/she thinks will be helpful to our community. Also, if people want to start with synastries, that is their wish and we cannot say:dont do that. We can explain why we would prefer to start with easier subjects first, but no more than that. Starlink

aquarius7000 said:
POST Pertaining to the subject: "synastry and divorce", I'd like to say that, whilst it is all right to express one's own views as to how a certain aspect may be understood, it is really best not to express ultimatums, esp negative ones; moreso not when a person asks a delicate question, say, will we end up in front of the courts..

Lillyjgc said:
POST Now keeping on topic. I ask this question: How would an astrologer be able to tell from looking at synastry charts whether there will be a divorce? or whether the couple would be separated by death? or family duties? or many other separative influences? And what would be the point/value in making such a prediction?
Simply, there *can't* be a classic divorce aspect.Some people dont even believe in divorce and will stay in a miserable marriage.Just as there isnt a *classic criminal* signature.
I agreed with EJ earlier that synastry has its useful applications.It's a very big help in understanding how we relate with others.But I baulk at using it to predict divorce.

We do have a range of people in this forum with all levels of experience and interest in astrology. I see no harm in more experienced members sharing their wisdom and what they have learned over the years with those newer to astrology. While I can see the merit of the *live and let live* approach, I dont think it advances learning in any meaningful way.

Theres a serious tendency these days to become an overnight...astrologer, healer, self proclaimed expert in any number of fields. The use of cookbook astrology encourages this. It presupposes you can *learn* the meanings of certain aspects and blindly apply them to any chart.Newcomers cant possibly know that the same aspect can have a very large range of interpretations, especially if they are reading simplistic explanations.
Another example: When I first started with Astrology I read a definition of *mercury/conjunct Neptune*- *the classic *liar* signature apparently! I know Mediums with this aspect. I also know a blind man with this aspect. They are not liars!So this type of misinformation can be very misleading and it is this type of *astrology* to which I object.

Astrology is always under scrutiny by the sceptics.I think if we are passionate about Astrology (as I am) then we do a greater service to its credibility to try to debunk the misinformation and actually encourage astrologers to plunge deeply into a range of texts and to use their own critical thought processes to come to an understanding of how complex astrology actually is.
Learning involves the synthesis of information, not merely the regurgitation of other peoples ideas.
Cheers
Lillyjgc


Waybread said:
POST BTW, I support your approach to looking at two people as individuals first and formost. Some folks are not cut out to be good partners/spouses, and no amount of dyn-o-mite synastry is going to make them super to live with.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Re: 'Cookbook' posts:- moved to "Discussion of Cookbooks" thread.

[Mod edit - off-topic and non-astrological comments- directed at another member deleted. You may address your grievance via PM for 'such' issues or use the 'Report Post' button. On this thread, please stick to Astrology and the topic ONLY!]
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Re: 'Cookbook' posts:- moved to "Discussion of Cookbooks" thread.

[Mod edit - see comment left in your previous post!]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: 'Cookbook' posts:- moved to "Discussion of Cookbooks" thread.

The issue of cookbooks is of course very relevant to synastry, to the extent that people use them to analyse match-ups of various kinds. There are also cookbooks on composite chart interpretations. A50 began this thread with some cookbook delineations.

What constitutes a cookbook? Sometimes the authors themselves indicate that one is to follow! But generally these give a full catalogue of planets or sensitive points in signs, houses, or aspect. Generally, they are brief, and are a bit like "recipes" for understanding something like "Mercury in Taurus," "Pluto in the 10th house", or "Venus trine Mars". One has to become a connoisseur of cookbooks, as different authors take very different approaches to the concise meaning of a particular planet, sign, or aspect.

EJ53, would that more of us used your approach, to do some synastry to understand why irritation occurs between two individuals, notably Forum members!
 
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smilingsteph

Well-known member
Thanks Star I really liked what you had to say there.
It may not be a divorce per say, but a break from a relationship in ones life.
Venus in my 3rd house, Uranus in the 9th.
I have venus opposition uranus and I seem to get into these friendships where we get along so well, I open up, they open up and then just as quickly as I found this to be a great friendship, BAM we end up never talking again!
I can start friendships and then they end in a fiery heated emotional nightmare. They are usually over some heated communications, some difference in personal beliefs too. 3rd and 9th house stuff.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Hi Steph, thanks. Have you looked at transits etc. when these things happened?
Sounds like Pluto hits to me. With Uranus there is still place for reconciliation but Pluto can cut off all ties, so maybe that Venus at the other end of the opposition got smacked by Pluto somehow? Would be interesting to know.
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
This was a transit chart for me when I had a huge blowup with a very close friend. We were the best of friends for some time and then our friendship vanished. I helped her through her miscarriage, I watched her dogs, we would get together on holidays. She played a huge role in me getting married and helped me a ton.
Then I was asked to watch her dogs. They ended up eating the carpet down to the concrete floor while I was at a movie. She was angry because she said "you should have been there, or else he wouldnt have done that!" Then she said "you are not to watch my dogs anymore." So I started my first day at work and she wanted me to take one of her dogs to the vet and it would make me late, I said "if I am not good enough to watch your dogs then I am not good enough to take them to the vet."

The fight was important because I would not let her control me anymore. She was pretty demanding on me and I ended up doing so much for her.

Interesting transiting Pluto was inconjunct venus
Transiting Uranus square natal venus
Transiting Venus square pluto
Venus in the 11th house at the time too!

Looks like you were right Star both Pluto and Uranus played a part here!
 

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EJ53

Banned
The fight was important because I would not let her control me anymore. She was pretty demanding on me and I ended up doing so much for her.

Natal Chiron in Taurus/2nd = lack of self-worth......transitting Chiron on cusp of 11th, activating natal moon/saturn/jupiter......Did this lead to an increase in self-worth, Steph?.........(If so, what's happening now that Chiron is hovering over your Ascendant?)

(Maybe Chiron activity and divorce are linked........particularly if one partner has their self-worth boosted.)
 
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