Saturn squaring my Ascendant

gen6k

Well-known member
All us Cancer ascs are getting our wings clipped. I have a late Cancer asc so the worst is yet to come. I had a bandmate around december, and about 3 weeks ago he told me that he has too many responsibilities. I tried showing him a lot of love, but he just looks at me from afar now. During the grand trines in earth, hes a capricorn he was about to write songs with me. Then the following week he backed away since then. My ex girlfriend stopped talking to me as a friend. One of my friends resigned, but I havent talked to him in like a year anyways. Another of my friends is like on a different schedule now, and hasent responded for a couple of weeks. I'm having trouble with women. This girl I like just listens to my msgs, but doesnt say much. At least she thinks about me most days although not entirely good. Some people wont return my emails. One of them does, but he just says like "lol" or sends me his music.

When it comes to work/stamina/self-confidence. Mine is pretty low also. The girl I like probably sees me as complainish. Or caught up on stupid things. It is really hard to start any projects or follow through. I also have this Mars opposition pluto transit which blocks off my energy making it more sporadic. I can do some things fine like go on walks and listen to music is pretty fun. I've also been depressed or like gloomy. I feel the whole going up hill without being able to start alone thing.

What I do like about it though is the juxaposition of views on myself. I call it exploring the human condition. Exploring crevices of my weaknesses, strengths, and what Ive accomplished so far. Seeing how society itself is maladjusted (cancer/saturn thing). Seeing how it really kind of is a free for all. Even trying to help other people out in this time is fruitless at times. Having like a resevior, but stupid river. Basically I find it a pretty humanizing aspect, but it doesnt matter if I get pizza or something. It just feels like its going mostly wrong. Especially with that Uranus Square Uranus also. It basically makes me want to move to a completely different city. People say they were going to do things, and never do anything. Another thing that I feel paradoxically is that people around me are underacheiving. Cause I tried showing people what kind of attitude, and resources are needed. Yet they rather watch tv or something. So im kind of left to my own devices. It hasent been completely a waste, but it is already april. And several things that were promised to me in the winter to come by this time still havent happened. At least I still have some friends wanting to be around them daily. I also kind of knew that this was going to happen at least a few months ago, so it didnt really take me by shock. I still go on day to day.

I was thinking about moving since before the aspects though. I think I have the intuition of just feeling what is going to happen in my life sometimes. Like I'll write something down, and I'll see the seeds for my thought pattens in the future. Or i'll have a feeling of what my condition would be like in the future if certain things happened.

I guess I do see the positive thing in it, but I am really hoping for a kind of anchor to come my way. Or at least a more clear realization of what or where I need to be next. I don't have the adventurous excitement of moving all of a sudden, it would be more like a throwing in the towel random set up move.

The most horrible part is that I thought this was going to be a good year compared to last year. Last year was actually my breakthrough year even though it was horrible neptune/saturn transit. Now this year I have uranus square uranus I mean I dont even really want the relationship. Saturn square Asc, I have no one to move foreward with that I want. Mars opposition pluto which is kind of like burning up on the way there. At least this year is more colorful/introspective. Uranus sextile Venus, Uranus Sextile Mercury.
 
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R4VEN

Well-known member
Hi all,

Having Cap ASC @ 26deg16', I am - and for the next week at least - experiencing tr Saturn Rx squaring my ASC exactly. The first pass was in early December, and I experienced a difficulty in moving my left shoulder. A friend of mine gave me a few massages to this shoulder, and pointed out that I `carry' everyone else's burdens as well as my own. This is very Cap ASC behaviour, but is something I learned and was conditioned into doing when a small child. My shoulder is still troublesome, but no longer painful.

Byron, I think that one of the things you need to take notice of is the sheer power of tr Pluto through your 12th house. With your natal Saturn (and chart ruler) in the 8th house, Pluto transits are very pertinent to your soul journey. Pluto transiting the 12th will force you into opening up all your cupboards and drawers (metaphorically speaking) and being honest about what you find. It may also result in quite a lot of projection - from you on to others, as well as projections from others on to you.

I have found Saturn Rx motion in Libra very confronting - I think the whole world has - as we are faced with our own relationships truth, and sometimes that isn't pleasant. (A few weeks ago one of my friends rang me in tears because she had just admitted to herself how terribly selfish her daughter is; my friend has tr Saturn through the 4th)

Having said all that, I think there is a lot of value in what Ion says here:
Ion said:
Saturn square approaching your ascendant is ALSO revealing the 'secret enemies' concealed in the 12th house .
The 'secret enemies' are NOT people hiding in bushes . . .but are , rather , patterns of consciousness that sabotage us , until they are eliminated .
When these 'secret enemies' are vanquished then there will be ascendance !
The job of Saturn is to 'get us' to unite our mind and heart . . . .
Saturn is NOT causing this situation . . . Saturn is REVEALING it .
The solution is 'inner-work' . . . and detachment . (my opinion)
The revelation of any level of truth can be emotional and is almost always confronting.

I am seeing that what is happening around me is not a personal slight against me, but I am seeing a lot of truth about `other people' - that is the Libra-factor.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
I have found this article - about Saturn transits to the ASC - and I found it to be relevant to this thread. Normally I'm a bit iffy about articles on the net, but this is excellent, and keeps in mind the purpose and nature of Saturn.

http://www.aquariuspapers.com/astrology/2005/12/saturn_cycles_w.html

Prior to turning 50 (yes, I'm a very slow learner) I thought Saturn was out to mess with me and to punish me for the bad deeds of my past. This is very Cap Rising BTW, but I can now see how much I projected this role on to Saturn, rather than Saturn being like a fair parent who sees my struggle and suggests (very strongly) that I try something different............like a reality check.
 

labelledujour

Well-known member
Hello! Another getting smacked, yet finally becoming a mature adult, Cancer with Asc Capricorn at 24 deg 48' by trSaturn from my 9th house. It has been a hard transit, but it helps me getting real. It helps that it's trining my natal Jupiter in Gemini, which helps me formulate my belief system. It's a really tough cookie, but try to see it as a lesson! As for your tax problem, Byron, it's just Mercury rx messing it a bit. Hope it's cleared up by now!
 

byjove

Account Closed
All us Cancer ascs are getting our wings clipped. I have a late Cancer asc so the worst is yet to come.

Hmm this really shows the importance of Saturn in your own chart. How is Saturn in your natal chart?

I've Cancer rising at 27 degrees, I've had plenty of this, so it has just to move forward over it again one more time. I've been fine so far. Nothing too noticeable. My health is great, and Saturn is in my 6th natally.

Saturn ruling 7th
Moon 1st ruler square Saturn
Venus square Saturn
Sun trine Saturn exactly

Whatever the balance of the above conditions I'm doing fine, I was just curious about what is to come.
 

KindredKayla

Well-known member
Hi everyone (R4VEN, really nice to see you again :)). I'm also undergoing this transit at the moment. At the same time, Saturn is approaching its retrograde conjunction to my natal Sun in the 9th.

It's certainly been a challenging period. I'm in my second year of University, and have been dealing with a variety of new challenges. From the very practical facts of living, to building academic skills, and continuing to work on my personal issues. I decided to extend my undergrad and limit my course load this year to a small few but very challenging courses. It's allowed me to divide my time almost evenly towards those different areas of my life. It's been difficult, but rewarding.

Saturn has been revealing a lot of harsh reality, especially in close relationships. I've been learning a great deal about how I've been limiting myself, or expecting more than I can realistically provide. At the same time, I see where I expect too much of others.

I've been working at reforming those bad behaviours/perspectives and have been building some greater personal integrity. My roommates haven't been very comfortable with the new Kayla. They are childhood friends of mine who are very used to an a-okay attitude, always saying yes, never speaking up for myself. As I've been changing, we have drifted apart. We spend less time together, share less. Oddly enough, I think I've begun to intimidate them.. a weird feeling.. yet they treat me with greater respect. Very bittersweet.

I've also met a lot of very new and different people, despite the fact that I have been pretty reserved (I struggle with anxiety). They are showing me sides to myself I wasn't aware existed, it's humbling and encouraging. :pouty: Mostly I am realizing the ways in which I have been self-defeating (Cap also rules 12th house) or delusional! :tongue:

The exact retrograde hit comes this Wednesday for Saturn square Asc, and the retrograde conjunction of Saturn to Sun comes on the 19th (smack in the middle of exams!) If anything concrete happens I'll share it here.

Best wishes everyone. :pouty:
 

Claire19

Well-known member
I'm now undergoing transit Saturn square my Ascendant, which will retrograde into a long malefic transit. I didn't know how excruciating this transit could be. Regressing my horoscope to the last time this occurred (when I knew nothing about astrology), I realize that this was then an excruciating time, too. At least I have astrology to explain it this time, and can forecast the end, even though it's going to be quite a painful while with Saturn's retrograde.

I honestly feel like my whole world has turned completely upside down, wrong side out...that many whom I believed were trusted friends are now demanding, treacherous enemies, and every comfortable routine has somehow been changed into a horrible ordeal to survive.

Blessings and love to anyone undergoing a transit Saturn squaring your ascendant! It's a nightmare.

Byron
Is it squaring from the 10th or the 4th? Is there a natal aspect with Saturn and the ascendant also? Post your chart for a better opinion. I feel there may be other influences at work.
 
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Claire19

Well-known member
Hmm this really shows the importance of Saturn in your own chart. How is Saturn in your natal chart?

I've Cancer rising at 27 degrees, I've had plenty of this, so it has just to move forward over it again one more time. I've been fine so far. Nothing too noticeable. My health is great, and Saturn is in my 6th natally.

Saturn ruling 7th
Moon 1st ruler square Saturn
Venus square Saturn
Sun trine Saturn exactly

Whatever the balance of the above conditions I'm doing fine, I was just curious about what is to come.
Saturn is our karmic planet and is what we have sown in the past that comes to fruition both good and bad.
 

gen6k

Well-known member
Hmm this really shows the importance of Saturn in your own chart. How is Saturn in your natal chart?

I've Cancer rising at 27 degrees, I've had plenty of this, so it has just to move forward over it again one more time. I've been fine so far. Nothing too noticeable. My health is great, and Saturn is in my 6th natally.

Saturn ruling 7th
Moon 1st ruler square Saturn
Venus square Saturn
Sun trine Saturn exactly

Whatever the balance of the above conditions I'm doing fine, I was just curious about what is to come.

Saturn is in the 6th in Capricorn.

Saturn conjunction Neptune orb +1°23'
Saturn sextile Pluto orb +0°02'
Mars opposite Saturn orb -3°18'
Jupiter inconjunction Saturn orb -0°41'
Saturn conjunction Uranus orb +8°42'
Mercury bi-quintile Saturn orb -1°0

The ascendant opposition is too wide 13 to 26, but i guess thats a t-square-ish.
 

labelledujour

Well-known member
I've been working at reforming those bad behaviours/perspectives and have been building some greater personal integrity. My roommates haven't been very comfortable with the new Kayla. They are childhood friends of mine who are very used to an a-okay attitude, always saying yes, never speaking up for myself. As I've been changing, we have drifted apart. We spend less time together, share less. Oddly enough, I think I've begun to intimidate them.. a weird feeling.. yet they treat me with greater respect. Very bittersweet.

I used to be like that, too. My parents kept walking over me, I got taken advantage of by my friends and I broke up with my ex who was (brace yourself) 28 years older than me. The latter happened just before Saturn entered Libra. After a few months I met my fiance, same age as me, and our relationship has matured me in a lot of ways. I have started amputating friendships and maybe my ties with my parents will be severed on my part, since even though I have set my boundaries, they don't seem to respect them.

I have gained respect from people after I graduated and I'm now studying for my post-grad exams. My break up with my ex (he was my Latin prof in my freshman year, started to have a relationship just a semester after this) helped me not only maintain my integrity, but also my credibility. Saturn has been squaring my Cancer Sun since the end of last year and a few months ago it started squaring my Capricorn Asc, and as a song says: "I learnt my lessons the hard way, every scar I earned. I had to bleed inside the day yard".
 
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R4VEN

Well-known member
I'm just adding a couple of observations for anyone with Capricorn ASC. This week tr Saturn is exactly squaring my ASC, and I am feeling very low - hopeless, depressed, `what is the purpose of my life, because to me it looks pointless???' I am normally quite contemplative, but this kind of depressive mood is a bit scary, even for me.

Looking at my chart ruler - Saturn in the 8th house - just on its own, without its aspects, it represents my difficulty in `letting go' - this, after all, is at its core what the 8th house is about. When we find ourselves `losing' that which we have worked hard to attain - status, a job, a relationship, property/money - we struggle to accept that maybe these losses are in our best interests in terms of our spiritual growth in our life path. This is a life pattern of mine - to hold on for dear life, even when it is clear that something must go from my life. Both my natal Saturn and Uranus are inconjunct my ASC, so I oscillate between total control and excessive rebellion. Along comes tr Saturn squaring my ASC, and this pattern of oscillation is exposed as being quite irresponsible. There's more, to this, but that's all I'm prepared to talk about.

The OP has also shown a fear of losing that which he has worked hard to build - and his chart-ruler is also in the 8th house - and with Saturn squaring Uranus natally, I think that some of the extremes of emotions he expresses may be attributed to the release in tension that this square (between Uranus and Saturn) requires. The trine between Mercury and Uranus also may not allow for any kind of chaos in one's life (that is, in one's mental assessment of life) because everything is logical, everything is manageable, everything has an action and a predictable reaction..............of course, that is true in a sense, but just not in a logical and predictable sense.
 

labelledujour

Well-known member
I'm just adding a couple of observations for anyone with Capricorn ASC. This week tr Saturn is exactly squaring my ASC, and I am feeling very low - hopeless, depressed, `what is the purpose of my life, because to me it looks pointless???' I am normally quite contemplative, but this kind of depressive mood is a bit scary, even for me.

Looking at my chart ruler - Saturn in the 8th house - just on its own, without its aspects, it represents my difficulty in `letting go' - this, after all, is at its core what the 8th house is about. When we find ourselves `losing' that which we have worked hard to attain - status, a job, a relationship, property/money - we struggle to accept that maybe these losses are in our best interests in terms of our spiritual growth in our life path. This is a life pattern of mine - to hold on for dear life, even when it is clear that something must go from my life. Both my natal Saturn and Uranus are inconjunct my ASC, so I oscillate between total control and excessive rebellion. Along comes tr Saturn squaring my ASC, and this pattern of oscillation is exposed as being quite irresponsible. There's more, to this, but that's all I'm prepared to talk about.

R4VEN- This week tr Saturn is exactly squaring my Asc, too. My ASC ruler, Saturn, is in Capricorn in the 12th house as part of the Uranus/Neptune/ Saturn Capricorn stellium. My mental health issues come to the fore, a fact for which I was prepared already at the beginning of last year, when trSaturn hit both the Capricorn stellium and my Mercury in Cancer. I do have a doomy and gloomy attitude, but the trine with my natal Jupiter in Gemini somehow makes me have to turn ideas into reality. I recently got diagnosed with depression and Asperger's. I have difficulty of letting go of stuff, but tr Pluto hitting my stellium and the 12th house is pressing me to get used to this reality.

Thank you for your observations, though, since I can relate to a great extent.
 

byjove

Account Closed
Saturn is in the 6th in Capricorn.

Saturn conjunction Neptune orb +1°23'
Saturn sextile Pluto orb +0°02'
Mars opposite Saturn orb -3°18'
Jupiter inconjunction Saturn orb -0°41'
Saturn conjunction Uranus orb +8°42'
Mercury bi-quintile Saturn orb -1°0

The ascendant opposition is too wide 13 to 26, but i guess thats a t-square-ish.

Hmm the most challenging aspects there to me is the Mars opposition. I would have expected more than that to account for the chain of disruptions and troubles that you experienced. :crying:
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
My dear, dear Raven,

That is exactly how I felt when Saturn was in orb squaring my 29 degree Capricorn ASC, especially in retrograde, as is it now for you! I empathize with you completely!! (Wish there were a hug icon I could put here.) I have to face this square one more time when Saturn goes direct.

In my natal chart, my Saturn is also in the 8th House and holds a prominent position as the middle planet in my natal Chiron-Saturn-Uranus T-square, which T Uranus has also been afflicting for a YEAR.

In fact, T Uranus is exactly square my Uranus (ruler of my Sun) right now, the right "leg" of this painful T-square, and I have been, not depressed, but rather extremely tense, anxious, unable to sleep. I've had insomnia for the past three days, which is scaring me a bit. I can only sleep for an hour or two a day.

My abusive, alcoholic mother's Sun was exactly conjunct my Saturn (thus square my Chiron and Uranus), and she often told me that I was helpless, useless, lacked a "sensible" purpose in life - and all of that came back to me in an excruciating deluge during T Saturn's retrograde square.

Hang in there! We'll make it! Thank heavens we know why we feel so bad. I feel sorry for people who don't have astrology to explain their suffering.

Hugs,

Byron
Thank you for the hugs, Byron :love: By the time your reply came through my own mini crisis was over. I can only reiterate the words of Ion:
Ion said:
The job of Saturn is to 'get us' to unite our mind and heart . . . .
Saturn is NOT causing this situation . . . Saturn is REVEALING it .
That was exactly what this recent Saturn square (Rx) to my ASC did for me. I have been in a long-term struggle with my boundaries - all & sundry walking in and taking advantage - and as a result of this square (along with tr Pluto's square to my Neptune-Mars exact conjunction :annoyed:) I suddenly `found' my own personal boundary, and the whole picture became clear.

Byron, in looking again at your chart, do not ignore the power of that Yod, and any transits to your Yod planets. Especially that Pisces Mars at the apex is a bit like target on your back. I remember some of your background from earlier threads, but I just have to ask you - and feel free to ignore this question if you wish - do you consider that you have in your life been a target for bullying? It's just that a Pisces Mars tends to attract that kind of thing, and as a Yod apex planet this makes it moreso. My son has Mars in Libra in the 12th at the apex of his Yod. He is a gentle soul and avoids conflict, but other men tend to seek him out and take out their insecurities & anger on him. One day around 18 months ago he had 2 complete strangers come up to him, and one of them grabbed his shirt, which tore right down the front, then they each punched him, knocking him to the ground. Then they walked off. This was in broad daylight in our city; there were quite a lot of witnesses, but they did nothing to help, and even looked away when he got to his feet. This is a difficult Mars placement in itself, but the Yod renders it something of a beacon for the angry and insecure.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Someone once told me that with my strongly Piscean/Neptunian chart, I'm very often the unsuspecting "target" of the projection of other people's blind anger (Mars) - a natural-born scapegoat - but she didn't point out my weakling Pisces Mars in my Yod. Maybe she thought I wouldn't know what a "yod" was.

Raven, since it is so close to my North Node, is there anything I can learn, anyway I can grow from this?
Byron, technically you have all of Jupiter, Venus and Mars conjunct your North Node, but since Mars is the only planet at the apex of the Yod, this will be the most difficult one for you to integrate, I'd say. For instance, were you to just have Venus and Jupiter conjunct the NN, the business of transforming the status of feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond your control into one of compassion for and detachment from those who project their fears and anger on to you would be much easier. I'm not saying that this transformation needs to be traumatic, but there are probably Mars issues which need to be embraced by you in order for you to be able to fully embrace your north node in Pisces.......and I'd say only you know what these are.

For instance, most of the men I've known who have a Neptunian Mars - and this includes my son - have masculinity `issues' brought about by their heightened sensitivity in a world which expects men to be tough and able to automatically `do what men do'. This is a difficult journey for a sensitive man. I'd say that the first level of compassion needs to be for yourself, and the rest will just develop from there.

I could write more, but I'm almost sure you'll know what I mean by this.
 

Vista

Well-known member
Byron, technically you have all of Jupiter, Venus and Mars conjunct your North Node, but since Mars is the only planet at the apex of the Yod, this will be the most difficult one for you to integrate, I'd say. For instance, were you to just have Venus and Jupiter conjunct the NN, the business of transforming the status of feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond your control into one of compassion for and detachment from those who project their fears and anger on to you would be much easier. I'm not saying that this transformation needs to be traumatic, but there are probably Mars issues which need to be embraced by you in order for you to be able to fully embrace your north node in Pisces.......and I'd say only you know what these are.

For instance, most of the men I've known who have a Neptunian Mars - and this includes my son - have masculinity `issues' brought about by their heightened sensitivity in a world which expects men to be tough and able to automatically `do what men do'. This is a difficult journey for a sensitive man. I'd say that the first level of compassion needs to be for yourself, and the rest will just develop from there.

I could write more, but I'm almost sure you'll know what I mean by this.


Hi R4VEN,
So glad you jumped into the conversation. Very interesting perspective! I usually don't give a lot of thought to quincunx(inconjuncts) and Yods, I do have to remind myself of to consider. A Quincunx, usually point to health issues, or at least that's what I have read.

Question about Pisces Mars, the bullying or target aspect, what if it's part of a Grand Cross? Would this make is more debilitated or actually give it more strength. I have met, both female and male, Pisces Mars people lately. It's very odd, but the common theme has been bullying from their mothers.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Hi R4VEN,
A Quincunx, usually point to health issues, or at least that's what I have read.
Hi Vista. I would reply to the above with: Only if the person refuses to deal with this quincunx. Any quincunx is a sore point on a chart, and creates difficulty for the native if they continue to ignore or deny it.

Question about Pisces Mars, the bullying or target aspect, what if it's part of a Grand Cross? Would this make is more debilitated or actually give it more strength. I have met, both female and male, Pisces Mars people lately. It's very odd, but the common theme has been bullying from their mothers.
Interesting about the bullying from the mothers. I think that many mothers are left with having to parent their sons, and so they unconsciously project on to them a lot of their own `stuff', so pushing their sons to be more `manly' - whatever that means.

I can't say definitively about the Grand Cross Pisces Mars, although there is the potential for it to be strengthened/supported. It all depends upon the other planets involved. For instance, a Grand Cross with Neptune in Sag and Moon in Gemini and Venus in Virgo could be quite difficult. Pisces/12th house Mars (or Mars-Neptune conjunct as I have) depend upon other aspects to challenge it or support it, or further weaken it. I know a man with Pisces Mars in opposition to Jupiter in Virgo. Looks good on paper, but due to his own quite suffocating mothering, and the total absence of a father, he tends to act impulsively and with grand gestures, at the wrong time and in the wrong way, so looking like a total prat. I don't like the guy at all, but I feel sorry for him also.

Your comment on the `bullying mothers' has now led me to look at the fathers of men with Pisces Mars. I mentioned the guy above, whose own father was actively kept from him because the mother wished to `own' her son totally. My son's father was (and possibly still is) a man who refuses to initiate, and insists that others act first, and he'll follow if the project looks like being a success. I found this to be impossible to live with, and I think that this modelling of inaction seems common among men with Pisces Mars sons.
 

Vista

Well-known member
Hi Vista. I would reply to the above with: Only if the person refuses to deal with this quincunx. Any quincunx is a sore point on a chart, and creates difficulty for the native if they continue to ignore or deny it.


Interesting about the bullying from the mothers. I think that many mothers are left with having to parent their sons, and so they unconsciously project on to them a lot of their own `stuff', so pushing their sons to be more `manly' - whatever that means.

I can't say definitively about the Grand Cross Pisces Mars, although there is the potential for it to be strengthened/supported. It all depends upon the other planets involved. For instance, a Grand Cross with Neptune in Sag and Moon in Gemini and Venus in Virgo could be quite difficult. Pisces/12th house Mars (or Mars-Neptune conjunct as I have) depend upon other aspects to challenge it or support it, or further weaken it. I know a man with Pisces Mars in opposition to Jupiter in Virgo. Looks good on paper, but due to his own quite suffocating mothering, and the total absence of a father, he tends to act impulsively and with grand gestures, at the wrong time and in the wrong way, so looking like a total prat. I don't like the guy at all, but I feel sorry for him also.

Your comment on the `bullying mothers' has now led me to look at the fathers of men with Pisces Mars. I mentioned the guy above, whose own father was actively kept from him because the mother wished to `own' her son totally. My son's father was (and possibly still is) a man who refuses to initiate, and insists that others act first, and he'll follow if the project looks like being a success. I found this to be impossible to live with, and I think that this modelling of inaction seems common among men with Pisces Mars sons.


Thank you for the excellent feedback. I agree with your thoughts on single mothers; so difficult! Also, I agree with your comments about 12th house/Pis Mars, it is an interesting one.

The one person I am thinking of with the Grand Cross I spoke of that includes Pisces Mars has several planets in fire signs(Pluto/Jupiter) and another two in water due to late degrees with all three of these planets. His Grand Cross includes Moon/Mer(Gem)-Mars(Pis)-Saturn Rx (Scorpio)-and Jup/Pluto(Leo). I don't think I have ever seen this before but feel it would give a little more grit than a Mutable Grand Cross normally would. Maybe wanting to change everything and yet, keep everything the same?? :unsure: BTW, is mother was rather rejecting and used to throw things at him.
 
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