Overcoming Challenging Aspects Using Solutions Found in the Natal Chart

StillOne

Well-known member
When two planets are in close square they will activate some of the same midpoints, so maybe there are clues there too?
I figured midpoints probably had an involvement in this topic. Could some help then be gathered from the house and sign the midpoint falls in?
 

miquar

Well-known member
I think our worry and angst increases when we read about "hard" aspects in our horoscope. I find my saturn venus aspect to be very hard - but to be very honest its because I've read so much about it. We become like hypochondriacs - excessively worrying, preoccupied and obsessed - sensing hardship even when there is none. Now everytime something goes even slightly wrong I think, "See I knew it - with saturn venus none of my relationships will ever go right. Woe is me."

But sometimes it can work the other way. If someone does not understand why the same difficult dynamic keeps arising in their lives, then looking at in terms of this planet square that planet can have a very positive effect. The struggle is validated because it has a definite root in one's psyche. I've often heard friends say, after a visit to a doctor for tests, something like, "If one of the tests comes back positive at least I'll know what I'm dealing with - what is at the root of these symptoms. And then I'm in a better position to do something about them."

What I'm trying to say is: do these interpretations just mess with our minds? Are these "difficulties" just the psychological effects of being told so? If you keep telling a child that he is bad - he will grow up believing that - and he really will start doing bad things - or imagine the world as a bad place

But one person will take on such messages at a very deep level, and another will brush them off. The difference is the difference in temperaments of the two people which was shown in their charts from the moment they were born, regardless of whether or not anyone actually cast that chart for them.

I take your point about the potential misuses of astrology though, definitely.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Oh well Carris I am a very good example I experienced my Moon/Pluto, Mars/Venus/Neptune square way before I started learning astrology. I felt the square effects all my life. They are very real! Not because I read about those aspects then started panic afterward. :D

Same for me. I knew about my Pluto-Saturn-Moon-Mars conjunction Leo in the 12th squared by Sun in Taurus in the 9th long before I ever looked at a natal chart. And the chart surely did explain A LOT when I finally was able to see it.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
I figured midpoints probably had an involvement in this topic. Could some help then be gathered from the house and sign the midpoint falls in?

I personally don't look at the house where a midpoint falls. But perhaps if two planets are in square aspect, their midpoint's house position in particular could be useful seeing how to integrate the planets' energies. This could be valid in general, or it could be valid only by virtue of the fact that when a transiting or progressed planet passes over that midpoint, it is in that house as it does so. Using this idea would probably mean using the house polarity (e.g. 6 and 12 rather than just 6) because there are of course two direct midpoints for each pair of points - the near one and the far one).

But I was mainly thinking about how to see which other natal points are involved with the tensely aspecting planets. For example, if someone has Moon and Mars at 16 degrees of Taurus and Leo respectively, then any midpoint which falls within orb of 16 degrees of a fixed sign will be on both the Moon midpoint tree and the Mars midpoint tree and may offer clues as to how the tension in the square can be released creatively. You could also look at midpoints landing within orb of 1 degree of cardinal signs, which fall on the Mars and Moon trees in a 45 degree sort. If the Venus/Mercury or Neptune/Mercury were such a midpoint then perhaps creative writing would be a good way to express Moon and Mars urges. Or if Jupiter/Saturn were on both trees then it may be appropriate to find a social context for the Moon Mars square..

But of course the whole chart must be looked at, including the house positions of the Moon and Mars, the positions of the rulers of these planets, the chart's emphases, etc, etc.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Poyi, Jupiter and Neptune are a good combination for the study of religion and mysticism. Jupiter deals more in conventional theology, and Neptune, with personal spirituality.

StillOne, I would think of Saturn/Pluto as potentially giving a hard edge to your personality, but you should also have tremendous staying power (Saturn) in a program of ongoing personal transformation (Pluto.) Saturn does really well with self-discipline, which could be helpful for all kinds of Plutonian themes.

Pluto fundamentally deals with cyclical time. sex-birth-life-death-rebirth. Pluto was the god of the underworld in Roman mythology, but he also ruled the wealth (such as minerals) found under the ground. Also, Prosperpine (Persephone), his queen and the symbol of the life-spirit, returns to the surface annually with the joyous revival of new plant life following its period of dormancy.

If you are at all artistic, for example, you might sketch or write poetry with Plutonian themes, and then use Saturn to perfect your work. If you are athletic, take up caving (spelunking) or diving. Or volunteer at a HIV-AIDS drop in centre or hospice, using your Saturn to provide some helpful structure for the patients.

These ideas are only suggestive. Depending upon your planets' signs and houses, and any other planets involved, you can come up with something that suits you.

Also, I realize that for someone who is struggling to cope with life's darker side, Pollyanna suggestions may seem like so much sublimation, or even silly. But the universe notices when we take baby steps to help ourselves, and gradually you should start to feel some realignment.

Also, for anyone whose chart has few mitigating "helper" planets, look for supportive transits. Somebody's Saturn opposite sun, for example, may be extremely difficult. But along comes transiting Jupiter or Uranus trining the sun and sextiling Saturn. These are times when the universe gives us an extra little boost.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Poyi, Jupiter and Neptune are a good combination for the study of religion and mysticism. Jupiter deals more in conventional theology, and Neptune, with personal spirituality.

In my case, Jupiter and Neptune have no aspect, not even a minor aspect!! Jupiter owned Neptune by ruling the Sagittarius cusp and the 4th house, so therefore also became the ruler of 7th house Pisces, instead of Neptune.

Since you had mentioned about Jupiter & Neptune are good for studying religion and mysticism. I went on and did some researches.

Apparently, famous people like J.K. Rowling has Jupiter biQuintile Neptune, her talent of endless mystic dream and wrote them into books this talent also bought her great fortune!!

Personally, I have one Mercury Quintile AC, Venus Quintile Jupiter, Mars Quintile Uranus, Saturn biQuintile MC (I always fascinate about Quintile and biQuintile aspects; I know that they are important but not many understood them well)

Edgar Cayce (famous psychic) also had a trine, Ayn Rand quintile, Mother Teresa had a "Square"!!!

Here we go people! Embrace your SQUARE! :lol: Endless optimistic dream from Jupiter & Neptune tells me that everything can be positive if you know how to use this energy!
 

poyi

Premium Member
Perhaps with the imagination, which is the realm of both Moon and Neptune.

But as you say semisextile is a minor aspect - a fragile connection.

When two planets are in close square they will activate some of the same midpoints, so maybe there are clues there too?

I am using whole sign here!

I tested the midpoint theory


For the Moon Square Pluto aspect....

The midpoint of the square is the midpoint of the Uranus conjunct Jupiter in the 4th house
!

Moon in 5th, Pluto in 3rd and Uranus/Jupiter are in 4th.


I am thinking that is the expression of the tension between my mother and father in our household.


For the Venus Square Neptune....

The midpoint of this square is the midpoint of the Saturn and Sun conjunction in 3rd house!!

Venus in 2nd, Neptune in 4th....This one I don't know how to explain but Saturn and Sun both represent male figure. Maybe all the male in my life is going to bring me pain in life (I hope not!:surprised:)

For the Mars Square Neptune....

The midpoint of this square is the EXACT location of the Pluto 0 11" in the 2nd house
(SCREAMING!)

Now you see why I hate this STUPID Neptune so much....
:crying:
 

waybread

Well-known member
Poyi, if a planet deposits another planet, they do have a relationship. If you look at house-cusp rulers, a good rule of thumb is "The House over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands."
(Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection.)
 

poyi

Premium Member
Poyi, if a planet deposits another planet, they do have a relationship. If you look at house-cusp rulers, a good rule of thumb is "The House over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands."
(Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection.)


It is like:

It is easy for an astrologer to observe the signs and symptoms of the chart but difficult to make the final formal diagnosis (interpretation)!

Philosophy of the day

Po yi
 

Carris

Well-known member
But sometimes it can work the other way. If someone does not understand why the same difficult dynamic keeps arising in their lives, then looking at in terms of this planet square that planet can have a very positive effect. The struggle is validated because it has a definite root in one's psyche. I've often heard friends say, after a visit to a doctor for tests, something like, "If one of the tests comes back positive at least I'll know what I'm dealing with - what is at the root of these symptoms. And then I'm in a better position to do something about them."



But one person will take on such messages at a very deep level, and another will brush them off. The difference is the difference in temperaments of the two people which was shown in their charts from the moment they were born, regardless of whether or not anyone actually cast that chart for them.

I take your point about the potential misuses of astrology though, definitely.
Yes that is true also. Knowing about these aspects was a relief and a load off my mind - that all these difficulties were not just my perception. But I guess my conscious, rational mind, my free will (i.e. my sun) does find it annoying how every little seemingly troublesome thing triggers off an extreme intense anguished emotional reaction (moon in scorpio) and my mercury immediately starts questioning "Why? Why is this happening? Is it the saturn venus? It must be that".

My practical sun in capricorn definitely does not like extremes in anything - so it tries to rationalize, "Is it really your hard aspects? But many other people have these same problems and much worse. Do they all have these same hard aspects? Why do you blame yours? Why are you using it as a crutch to feel self-pity and avoid taking responsibility for your thoughts and actions? Are you going to take steps to improve the situation or are you just going to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, fatalistic and trying to find something to blame."

So that is why I sometimes feel annoyed by these types of interpretations - because they get you in a rut of fatalistic thinking - at that point you can't think in terms of free will. You keep thinking in terms of karma and pre-determination rather than evolution of the soul, learning lessons and spiritual growth through exercising our free will.

This is one of my favorite quotes:
“You should check your vices while on earth. If you do not, you carry them over with you to another life. Only we can rid ourselves of the bad habits that we accumulate when we are in a physical state. If you choose to fight and not to rid yourself, then you will carry them over into another life. Only when you decide that you are strong enough to master the external problems, then you will no longer have them in your next life. " Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

So how do I get rid of my bad habits and vices if I think fatalistically all the time? Astrology/astrologers should make it very clear that these aspects are only the lessons/syllabus/classes that we need to focus on in this lifetime - it is not our fate - it is the college program we are studying in and these planets are the professors that we have chosen to teach us these lessons - and that WE DEFINITELY WILL LEARN! Our sun (i.e. our free will, the conscious rational mind) will make sure of it - though it may require the square/opposition to give it a few swift kicks in the backside now and then.

For example, my main hard aspects requires me to learn about saturn (duty, responsibility, discipline, honoring promises, dealing with frustrations, time delays and endurance, "in sickness and in health", patience, ect) regarding venus (love, affection, relationships, peace, harmony, beauty, aesthetics, etc.). Probably in a previous life I was irresponsible regarding a love relationship - thus causing hurt to someone - and now I must learn to become more responsible - my soul needs this lesson in order to graduate (nirvana, enlightenment) from earth.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
For the Moon Square Pluto aspect....
The midpoint of the square is the midpoint of the Uranus conjunct Jupiter in the 4th house
!

Moon in 5th, Pluto in 3rd and Uranus/Jupiter are in 4th.


I am thinking that is the expression of the tension between my mother and father in our household.


For the Venus Square Neptune....

The midpoint of this square is the midpoint of the Saturn and Sun conjunction in 3rd house!!

Venus in 2nd, Neptune in 4th....This one I don't know how to explain but Saturn and Sun both represent male figure. Maybe all the male in my life is going to bring me pain in life (I hope not!:surprised:)

For the Mars Square Neptune....

The midpoint of this square is the EXACT location of the Pluto 0 11" in the 2nd house
(SCREAMING!)


Hi Poyi. It's difficult to work with the information in this form. If you feel inclined to put your chart up, then people might be able to say more about how the midpoints give outlets for the squares...
 

miquar

Well-known member
My main hard aspects requires me to learn about saturn (duty, responsibility, discipline, honoring promises, dealing with frustrations, time delays and endurance, "in sickness and in health", patience, ect) regarding venus (love, affection, relationships, peace, harmony, beauty, aesthetics, etc.). Probably in a previous life I was irresponsible regarding a love relationship - thus causing hurt to someone - and now I must learn to become more responsible - my soul needs this lesson in order to graduate (nirvana, enlightenment) from earth.

Yes, this is quite possible, I guess. But I think that Saturn lends itself to a particular way of expressing ideas that isn't always conducive to us getting the best out of ourselves. Another way of approaching the Venus Saturn square might be:

"In this lifetime I offer to myself the gifts of inner harmony and the capacity to create and enjoy beauty as I relate to the world. In order to realise these gifts at the most profound level of my being, rather than merely at a superficial and ultimately unsatisfying level, I will need to undergo a particular process. The tranquillity at the end of this process depends upon a healthy sense of self-sufficiency. Therefore, as part of this process, I will need to become fully conscious of the limits and fears - the existential angst - inherent in life on the material plane, as it effects my experiences of self-worth and relationship. In being honest about my fears, rather than trying to avoid them through suppression and compensation, I am holding out my hands to receive this gift."
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi poyi. Jupiter is about a degree and a half from your Moon Pluto midpoint, but Uranus is too far away. In other words, you have a configuration involving Moon, Jupiter and Pluto all in tense aspect to one another. But Jupiter could provide a release for the Moon Pluto square as there tends to be less sense of resistance in the semisquare and sesquiquadrate than with the square.

Actually, if your birth time is accurate, you also have Ascendant and Midheaven aspecting your Moon/Pluto midpoint, with Jupiter aspecting the Ascendant/Midheaven midpoint, as well as conjuncting the IC and squaring the Asc.

You don't have planets on your Venus/Neptune or your Mars/Neptune midpoints (using the 45 degree sort which picks up conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare and sesquiquadrate aspects). Having two midpoints in the same place may be important but its not something I use personally. I guess they will be triggered together by other people's planets and also transiting and progressed planets.

Perhaps learning and communicating on various levels is a valuable way for you to help to release the tensions in the squares. Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception, with a sextile between them. Mercury is also sextile the Moon. The trine between Moon and Mars, which could provide stability, can also flow through the Mercury since Mercury sextiles them both.

And then there's the Jupiter stuff mentioned above. So Perhaps Jupiter and Mercury are an area where you can channel your energy successfully. Sun and Mercury in 3rd house too, whether you use equal, whole sign, or a quadrant house system.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Hi poyi. Jupiter is about a degree and a half from your Moon Pluto midpoint, but Uranus is too far away. In other words, you have a configuration involving Moon, Jupiter and Pluto all in tense aspect to one another. But Jupiter could provide a release for the Moon Pluto square as there tends to be less sense of resistance in the semisquare and sesquiquadrate than with the square.

Actually, if your birth time is accurate, you also have Ascendant and Midheaven aspecting your Moon/Pluto midpoint, with Jupiter aspecting the Ascendant/Midheaven midpoint, as well as conjuncting the IC and squaring the Asc.

You don't have planets on your Venus/Neptune or your Mars/Neptune midpoints (using the 45 degree sort which picks up conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare and sesquiquadrate aspects). Having two midpoints in the same place may be important but its not something I use personally. I guess they will be triggered together by other people's planets and also transiting and progressed planets.

Perhaps learning and communicating on various levels is a valuable way for you to help to release the tensions in the squares. Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception, with a sextile between them. Mercury is also sextile the Moon. The trine between Moon and Mars, which could provide stability, can also flow through the Mercury since Mercury sextiles them both.

And then there's the Jupiter stuff mentioned above. So Perhaps Jupiter and Mercury are an area where you can channel your energy successfully. Sun and Mercury in 3rd house too, whether you use equal, whole sign, or a quadrant house system.

You are very correct about this. The best way to heal myself is by talking about the issue with someone else (such as here) and analyzing the issue Mars+Mercury and a little bit of Jupiter just became perfect!

I have been looking at my chart, I suspected that there is "A Flow" of energy between all those 10 planets due to rulership and aspects. :tongue:

Jupiter and Mercury, I always believe these two are the biggest Bosses in my chart. Although Mars seems to be very strong as well but the energy Fallen into Mercury and Jupiter himself is another independent figure in the chart.

Jupiter rules Neptune, Neptune is the only planet other than Moon square my Venus and Mars, because of the conjunction between Mars and Venus, the energy is united as "One". Then again due to the Mars exalts in Capricorn, Mars rules Moon, so as her energy but Then Mercury exalts in Virgo, so Mercury OWN the energy from Venus, Moon and Mars. If we use whole sign housing, Mercury owns everyone in that house, Pluto, Saturn and Sun. Pluto and Mercury might again have similar relationship as mutual reception.

This square from Neptune becomes the vessel of energy from Jupiter given to Mars and then again falls into Mercury. My teacher said all the "Weight" had fallen into this one particular planet, Mercury. He told me to study this planet in depth to understand the true me...

I always think Mercury is more important in my chart than Mars. Mars is only a tool of Mercury so as everyone else. But Jupiter is independent.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
My teacher said all the "Weight" had fallen into this one particular planet, Mercury. He told me to study this planet in depth to understand the true me...

I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. Looking at your chart, the Moon and Mars in earth contain the bundle of planets and perhaps this reflects a need to have some degree of control over your environment, since both Mars and the Moon are concerned with survival.

Mercury in Scorpio at the midpoint of the bundle can provide the urge to seek new experiences which prevent the earthy needs from bringing about stagnation. This will also help the Moon to deal with Pluto, which is also seeking new depths of experience, but in a way which feels more threatening to the Moon.

Mars is also conjunct Venus and square Neptune of course, so the need to bring beauty into the world influences the way in which Mars seeks to impose order on the world.

There seems to a theme repeating in lots of ways that involves the balancing of the earthy need for order and self-sufficiency with the watery willingness to allow chaos into life in order to experience the warmth of human contact and relationship.

But in some ways Jupiter is probably the strongest planet in your chart because it is angular, in its own sign, and on the ASC/MC midpoint. In terms of integration by aspect, Mercury is obviously very strong too, though.
 

poyi

Premium Member
I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. Looking at your chart, the Moon and Mars in earth contain the bundle of planets and perhaps this reflects a need to have some degree of control over your environment, since both Mars and the Moon are concerned with survival.

Mercury in Scorpio at the midpoint of the bundle can provide the urge to seek new experiences which prevent the earthy needs from bringing about stagnation. This will also help the Moon to deal with Pluto, which is also seeking new depths of experience, but in a way which feels more threatening to the Moon.

Mars is also conjunct Venus and square Neptune of course, so the need to bring beauty into the world influences the way in which Mars seeks to impose order on the world.

There seems to a theme repeating in lots of ways that involves the balancing of the earthy need for order and self-sufficiency with the watery willingness to allow chaos into life in order to experience the warmth of human contact and relationship.

But in some ways Jupiter is probably the strongest planet in your chart because it is angular, in its own sign, and on the ASC/MC midpoint. In terms of integration by aspect, Mercury is obviously very strong too, though.

Thanks for the reading!

Whatever Mercury and Jupiter represent those qualities from both planets influence me greatly! :tongue:
 

Carris

Well-known member
I have Saturn square Pluto in my chart. There aren't very many descriptions of this aspect online (I do have books at home but a lot of my posts are from work! Lol :wink:.)

One of the things I feel I need in my life is discipline and how sometimes I struggle with finding that.

I took a quick look around online and found this blog and I liked how it broke these particular planets into Excessive and Deficient in their natures. I think this helped put a perspective on how to readjust and as Carris mentioned earlier: Act.
source: http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2009...uare-may-affect-people-born-with-that-aspect/
StillOne, read this:

"Let me emphasize here that though the soft aspects are indeed great gifts, it is often the hard aspects, in both birth charts and transits, that prove to be the most fruitful in a person's life, sometimes dramatically so...Also, as one works through the negative side of such an aspect, the psychic energy that is bound within that archetypal complex can be freed up to manifest in more creative, life-enhancing ways (e.g., the compulsive rigidity that can accompany hard Saturn-Pluto aspects can turn into sustained strength of purpose, and so forth)." http://www.gaiamind.org/AstroIntro.html

[deleted quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

Also, saturn squares pluto for a few months - so everyone born around your birthdate must have this same square. Jeanne Avery in her book says that hard aspects between saturn pluto indicate a fear/disgust/aversion of politics/power-play/control which comes from traumatic experiences in previous lives regarding extreme imbalances of power. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...AfXn9ngBw&ved=0CFsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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Carris

Well-known member
Psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud noticed that his grandson would often play in his crib by throwing a top out of the crib and saying ‘fort’ (‘gone’ in German) and then puling it back by its string and saying ‘da’ (‘here’ in German). Freud analyzed this fort-da game as needing to experience a problem so as to have the satisfaction of finding a solution.

"...Fort-da is probably the shortest story we could invent: it is a story of the object lost and then found. However, even the most complicated narrations can be read as variants of this model: the model of classic narration consists of an expression whose initial balance is disturbed and then re-established. Every story progresses as a search for something lost. All tales are variants of one general theme which moves from one initial harmony towards descent into a disharmony which initiates a search that is the main motif of the progression of the story, ending with the restoration of harmony."

"Something must be lost or absent in any narrative for it to unfold; if everything stayed in place there would be no story to tell." I think this is what hard aspects are.

This means we cannot find answers, we cannot gain wisdom, we cannot have the satisfaction of finding our own unique solutions if we are not willing to face, experience, explore and immerse ourself completely in the problem. We learn best by experience rather than by theory. I guess that is why we are willing to incarnate on earth in the first place - even though it is so painful.

“There are different levels of learning, and we must learn some of them in the flesh. We must feel the pain. When you're in physical state in the flesh, you can feel pain; you can hurt. In spiritual form you do not feel pain, there is only happiness, a sense of well-being.” Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

So I guess we must face our "hard" aspects fully - and completely feel/experience/analyze it in totality - so as to gain maximum wisdom out of it - by being driven to find a solution.

I think that some of best stories, movies, dramas, novels etc are those which have some puzzle or some struggle to be resolved. My favorite movie of all time is "The Shawshank Redemption" - I was so completely immersed in it that my heart stopped for a moment when it looked like the hero had hanged himself - and then knowing that he had actually escaped instead - caused the complete opposite reaction of elation. I actually found myself cheering. The movie was a real roller coaster ride in terms of emotions - is that why is it my favorite? No I think its because the hero wins in the end after going through so much. So maybe our hard aspects will be our favorite stories too - rather than our soft aspects.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Great post Carris.

Great film too. But when Morgan Freeman's character goes to the bedsit he sees that it is where another elderly person has hung himself earlier in the film - after being released from a long stay prison. He is thinking of doing the same, but then remembers that the hero has left him some money and told him where he'll be, so Morgan Freeman's character goes and joins him. That's why the writing is on the beam - the hero has never been to that place. But anyway brilliant film.
 
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