Pluto in our lives

Carris

Well-known member
Well... I was an advertising and PR executive with some huge corporate clients, and eventually had my own tiny, at-home ad & PR business (Sun in 10th). Nothing very transformative there. Never famous, either. In fact, I tended to run away from that, for instance by ghost-writing for others, or being dragged reluctantly into public speaking, etc. (I was always amazed if someone said I spoke well, which wasn't always the case, because I couldn't ever recall what I had said... nerves!)

The key to my earlier career, as I see it: the midpoints of my Ascendant and MC, Ascendant-Pluto, Venus-Pluto, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Venus (all pretty much in square aspect) are conjunct my Libra Mercury in the 11th, right around 0 Libra... a hugely sensitive point in my chart. I think my adv/PR career fit very nicely into that configuration. Mercury was and is the funnel for all that wicked energy. And of course Mercury rules my Sun, so ... kind of like falling off a log (South Node also near that 0 Libra point and conjunct Mercury). When I do charts, I always like to check the Asc-MC midpoint to see if there's a planet there... it's always, of course, in the 11th house, and I think a planet conjunct that midpoint tells us what we aspire to do. In my case, I really wanted to be a writer, but ended up writing ad copy and PR releases.... the dream of being a writer died hard, but who knows? maybe some day.

I think Pluto's influence had more to do with my STYLE of working, very focused, highly productive (dare I say 'intense'?) in my younger years. I was a workhorse. If anything was transformed, it was me (Pluto ruling my Asc), because I was quite shy as a teen, and as a young adult I actually set myself the task of becoming more assertive and friendly, and less withdrawn. It more or less worked.

Oddly, now that I'm semi-retired, I'm more reclusive again. (Interesting how these trajectories go!) I now work one-on-one with people, no more big groups. But I've developed a better sense of humor, which is a very good thing... kind of like aged cheese, I suppose. ;)
Thanks. Thats very interesting - that you/your personality (ascendent) got transformed (pluto) by your career (MC). I never thought of it that way. I always thought that the ruler of house serves the agenda of the house where it is posited.

I guess also pluto (intensity, magnetism) and venus (attraction, glamor) in leo helped you get attention (leo) for your companies as a PR person. Maybe pluto helped you transform the company's image to the public. I always think of advertising and PR as a very leo type of industry.
 

MaeMae

Banned
Yup, MaeMae ... in your face, for sure. I mean Pluto -- well, sometimes me, too! If nothing else, when Pluto is active in the chart, I suppose it makes us grow a thicker skin. (Maybe not the case when the Moon is involved, or more sensitive signs, I dunno.)

Which system puts it in the 10th house? Just wondering.... it's so close to my MC that it could probably be interpreted as a big influence on the 10th, anyway.

when in doubt
focus on angular planets.
they are the grease that keeps the wheel rolling.
if i were to be an astro ascete, i'd look at angleonly.
 

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Thanks. Thats very interesting - that you/your personality (ascendent) got transformed (pluto) by your career (MC). I never thought of it that way. I always thought that the ruler of house serves the agenda of the house where it is posited.

I guess also pluto (intensity, magnetism) and venus (attraction, glamor) in leo helped you get attention (leo) for your companies as a PR person. Maybe pluto helped you transform the company's image to the public. I always think of advertising and PR as a very leo type of industry.

I suspect there are many Scorpio rising people who are going to transform themselves in some way during their lifetime. It seems to be natural to the sign, if they aren't held back by fears. And the kind of transformation must surely be related to the placement of their Pluto chart ruler.

You might be right about Leo and advertising, though I've seen many client charts with Leo MC (I seem to attract Scorpio rising clients, surprise surprise), and none so far were ever in the ad biz.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
I suspect there are many Scorpio rising people who are going to transform themselves in some way during their lifetime. It seems to be natural to the sign, if they aren't held back by fears. And the kind of transformation must surely be related to the placement of their Pluto chart ruler.

You might be right about Leo and advertising, though I've seen many client charts with Leo MC (I seem to attract Scorpio rising clients, surprise surprise), and none so far were ever in the ad biz.


I once read somewhere (don't quote me) that no unevolved person is ever born with a Scorpio Rising. Then again I don't believe in other lifetimes or reincarnation so...

By the way I am a Scorpio Rising with Pluto in the 1st Scorpio....I have not transformed into anything.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
Angular planets certainly do animate a chart! Also very visible, especially @ Ascendant or MC.


Well of course they are angular houses, and over-the-earth houses as well. Since they are prominent houses by nature, the over-the-earth status is what differentiates them from the 7th and 4th houses.
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Ilene, I agree that us Pluto folk have a NEED to dig. (I dig in my garden all the time... sorry, couldn't resist.) But I don't know that Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house are so closely analogous; they're separate entities.

Would you agree that some of the potentially difficult Pluto transits are somewhat easier to handle as we get older and it's a "been there, done that" situation? Except for death. Each one feels like a completely new experience, at least for me, as if I've never been through it before.

And I enjoy Hamaker-Zondag's books. Have I read that one? Not sure ... having a senior moment here. Ha!

I do agree that the planet, sign and house are separate entities. Yet, issues of birth, death and transformation are overarching 8th house issues that correspond to Scorpio attributes. With Pluto as the modern ruler of Scorpio, there is a certain common overlay of meaning...
Psychological Astrology is Hamaker's tour de force on psychological [Jungian] issues for those who might be interested.
 
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!4C

Well-known member
Another Libra Pluto here, except mine is conjunct venus on the IC. Pluto supports venus. I manipulate people to maintain peace and harmony. I like to fix things and keep them as long as possible, versus running out and by new all time.


My attempt at a generalized pluto interpretation:

In a nutshell, pluto represents a system analysis/manipulation process. The process analyzes the characteristics and relationships between all entities within the boundary of focus. Once understood, the system can be manipulated for particular outcomes.

Notice I kept it generic because it applies to a whole lot more than people. You might use this process to debug software, or the gods of change might use it on you to transform the broader environment.

The hidden element to this process is rather fascinating. Pluto rules the water sign of scorpio, and water signs are associated with the hidden process of intuition. Intuition is just sensory/memory information processing that is segregated from the conscious part of the brain. The conscious receives the end result but doesn't have much insight into the encapsulated processing that took place. Similarly, people are usually unaware that their own brain is hosting a pluto process with their environment.

Pluto placements in the chart (natal,progressions, and transits) show where we are LIKELY to focus the pluto process we host as well as where others are likely to focus their pluto process on us.
 

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Well of course they are angular houses, and over-the-earth houses as well. Since they are prominent houses by nature, the over-the-earth status is what differentiates them from the 7th and 4th houses.


Well.... planets are more visible to the world at MC or Ascendant, but I wouldn't say that makes a planet necessarily more prominent in the way an individual expresses him/herself. There's a difference.

For just one of many "for instances", I'll cite Ernest Hemingway, with Uranus closely conjunct his Sagittarius IC, per Rodden's Placidus chart. (Jupiter resided in his 3rd house; Uranus ruled his 6th by this chart. Sun in Cancer in 11th house mirrors or restates Uranus in the 4th.)

I haven't done any close scrutiny of the man's chart, but I think he LIVED that Uranus/IC aspect, through self-exile to Europe and subsequently traveling a lot, never quite feeling "at home"... or maybe at home everywhere, anywhere. Really itchy feet.

Uranus is his only closely angular planet. Was it visible to the world? Maybe, but he was identified with his home on Key West. Was it prominent in his life? Sure looks that way to me!

By the way, to keep this on topic, Pluto was in Hemingway's 10th house, opposed by Saturn in his 4th. Scorpio intercepted in his 3rd.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
I once read somewhere (don't quote me) that no unevolved person is ever born with a Scorpio Rising. Then again I don't believe in other lifetimes or reincarnation so...

By the way I am a Scorpio Rising with Pluto in the 1st Scorpio....I have not transformed into anything.

All in good time, mate.......all in good time :ninja::ninja:
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Another Pluto in Leo here.... getting to be older 'n dirt. Here's my two cents:

I think that, at its most basic, Pluto is about transforming rather than about traumatizing. Sometimes it will transform by taking the neat little structure you've erected around your life and blasting it away because it needed to be blasted.

Other times it does its transformative work more slowly over time.
Some wise words re Pluto, Judy. I have learned the hard way to `love' Pluto, as I was once afraid of where it was taking me.

The digging deep seems to be behind the interest in psychology/counselling/motivation. I have an enduring interest/passion/obsession with the shadow side of human nature, and especially the motivation of those who behave way outside the law - eg as in murderers, `gurus' such as Jim Jones and David Koresh, etc. Last night I was out to dinner with my brother, my niece and my cousin - we only ever get together infrequently, as my brother lives interstate. My cousin has Sun-Jupiter closely conjunct (only 8' separate) in the 12th (in Aries) and she reads a lot, mostly books on spirituality, and she can be quite `preachy' about what she has read. She was telling us about the latest book she'd read, when she asked me what I'd been reading. The conversation went something like this:
Cuz: So, R4VEN, what are you reading at the moment?
R: It's called "Killing For Pleasure", and is about the background to the Snowtown murders (a well-known serial killing in this state) and the early lives of the perpetrators. It's something of a psychological profile of the people involved.
Cuz: (wrinkling her nose) Oh, I couldn't read anything like that! Too dark.
R: I like dark. It fascinates me. I'm a bit obsessed with that sort of thing.

I kind of killed the conversation with my revelation about my preferred reading material. As well as the Sun-Pluto conjunction, I have Pluto trine Jupiter, also very closely semi-sextile my Cancer Moon, as well as semi-square venus-Uranus conjunction. Pluto is quite entwined in many areas of my chart.

I would also say that my fascination with the darker side of human nature has only emerged slowly and after transiting Pluto squared my Sun-Pluto conjunction in the late 1980's.......................in much the same way, my son only began wearing black clothes after tr Pluto crossed his Scorpio ASC in the mid 1990's. Tr Pluto has the potential for opening parts of us which may not necessarily be `nice', but are fascinating all the same (but mainly to us). Pluto has the potential for exposing these parts of ourselves which we have a need to acknowledge and integrate if we wish to be whole.....that's my theory anyway.

And in relation to what Judy mentioned about attracting Pluto-type clients........ my ex-husband has Scorpio rising, as has one of my sons. That same son has Pluto-Sun conj, and my other son has Pluto opp Moon - he is somewhat more gentle than the rest of us!! I have only learned to enjoy and even love Pluto through discovering my own preferred expression of it.
 
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SniperBomber328

Well-known member
Well.... planets are more visible to the world at MC or Ascendant, but I wouldn't say that makes a planet necessarily more prominent in the way an individual expresses him/herself. There's a difference.

I meant prominency in terms of the planet at an angular house operates at 100% full power.
 

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
Sigh.... I don't think it's possible to love Pluto in any easy way. Always hard. And you have to survive the awful transits, really get through them and out the other side, before you can see the transformative good. It reminds me of the grief process, after a loved one has died. (Here we go again with morbid, dark-side stuff!!! Just comes naturally:)

Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Sigh.... I don't think it's possible to love Pluto in any easy way. Always hard. And you have to survive the awful transits, really get through them and out the other side, before you can see the transformative good. It reminds me of the grief process, after a loved one has died. (Here we go again with morbid, dark-side stuff!!! Just comes naturally:)

Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!

I think this description hits the nail on the head. Thank you.
 

Blackempress

Well-known member
Thanks everyone for making this thread so dynamic! :love: it!


Prehaps I am not old enough to give any significant insight on Pluto in a personal sense (or judegment to boot), but I have not felt Pluto's so-called "transformations" in my lifetime.

.

You're just crawling now, wait till you start walking & discover all those floors are not as carpeted as we thought as infants. When you do, please come back & share your experience with us.


Astrologer Katherine Hamaker Zondag has an interesting experience of pluto. When she was carrying her first child, the due date was supposed to be in september making the child a virgo.

She experienced the same thing with her second child. She says other astrologers have also had this experience. So maybe pluto has something to do with the endless chain of parents-children-parents-children.

Complicated for me but I'm gonna keep track of more than the psychological effect of Pluto hereforth!


Another Pluto in Leo here.... getting to be older 'n dirt. Here's my two cents:

The mighty P is in my 9th, minutes away from my Midheaven, closely conjunct Venus in 9th. Pluto rules my Scorpio Ascendant. Also trines my Moon, and sextiles my Neptune. Leaves my Virgo Sun alone... probably just as well. Aside from trying to become a Virgo over time, Pluto has been THE major influence in my life, one way or another.

I would agree with Raven's comments about Pluto in Leo... Pluto's lessons are often about letting go, and that's very difficult for a Fixed sign. Fortunately, most of us have planets in other elements that may be able to help us adapt to major upheavals.

I think that, at its most basic, Pluto is about transforming rather than about traumatizing. Sometimes it will transform by taking the neat little structure you've erected around your life and blasting it away because it needed to be blasted.

Other times it does its transformative work more slowly over time. I see this very clearly with the Venus-Pluto conjunction, as the Venus function/manifestation has evolved in my life over many years. I believe that's the point of Pluto's close relationship to any personal planet.

When Pluto was minutes away from a transit to my Ascendant, I met my first husband, who was truly a transformative influence on my ... well, on everything -- who I am, what I am. He has since died, but his influence was permanent. There's an example of a positive Pluto-driven change!

Don't know about Pluto's connection to psychology. Maybe that's more an 8th house thing than a Pluto thing, or a good working relationship between Mercury and Pluto? Not so good at it, myself.


I somehow feel Pluto- Scorpio- 8th house have alot in common. It's like saying sex & aggression come from the same source (Mars) & you do find nearly 14 physiological responses similar. It's not the exact thing but parts working in the same fashion.


Well... I was an advertising and PR executive with some huge corporate clients, and eventually had my own tiny, at-home ad & PR business (Sun in 10th). Nothing very transformative there. Never famous, either. In fact, I tended to run away from that, for instance by ghost-writing for others, or being dragged reluctantly into public speaking, etc. (I was always amazed if someone said I spoke well, which wasn't always the case, because I couldn't ever recall what I had said... nerves!)

The key to my earlier career, as I see it: the midpoints of my Ascendant and MC, Ascendant-Pluto, Venus-Pluto, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Venus (all pretty much in square aspect) are conjunct my Libra Mercury in the 11th, right around 0 Libra... a hugely sensitive point in my chart. I think my adv/PR career fit very nicely into that configuration. Mercury was and is the funnel for all that wicked energy. And of course Mercury rules my Sun, so ... kind of like falling off a log (South Node also near that 0 Libra point and conjunct Mercury). When I do charts, I always like to check the Asc-MC midpoint to see if there's a planet there... it's always, of course, in the 11th house, and I think a planet conjunct that midpoint tells us what we aspire to do. In my case, I really wanted to be a writer, but ended up writing ad copy and PR releases.... the dream of being a writer died hard, but who knows? maybe some day.

I think Pluto's influence had more to do with my STYLE of working, very focused, highly productive (dare I say 'intense'?) in my younger years. I was a workhorse. If anything was transformed, it was me (Pluto ruling my Asc), because I was quite shy as a teen, and as a young adult I actually set myself the task of becoming more assertive and friendly, and less withdrawn. It more or less worked.

Oddly, now that I'm semi-retired, I'm more reclusive again. (Interesting how these trajectories go!) I now work one-on-one with people, no more big groups. But I've developed a better sense of humor, which is a very good thing... kind of like aged cheese, I suppose. ;)

You kindda loosened my reins on Pluto influence suddenly! I thought 10th P & especially conj MC would lead to a 'POWERFUL' & probably Famous career! This is an interesting manifestation. You are probably strongly Influential so are put forward naturally. 10th I suppose is 'more to public' than your sight. (Like that 10th Neptune of Politicians working illusions on others). Very enjoyable example of pluto's working!

Well.... planets are more visible to the world at MC or Ascendant, but I wouldn't say that makes a planet necessarily more prominent in the way an individual expresses him/herself. There's a difference.

For just one of many "for instances", I'll cite Ernest Hemingway, with Uranus closely conjunct his Sagittarius IC, per Rodden's Placidus chart. (Jupiter resided in his 3rd house; Uranus ruled his 6th by this chart. Sun in Cancer in 11th house mirrors or restates Uranus in the 4th.)

I haven't done any close scrutiny of the man's chart, but I think he LIVED that Uranus/IC aspect, through self-exile to Europe and subsequently traveling a lot, never quite feeling "at home"... or maybe at home everywhere, anywhere. Really itchy feet.

Uranus is his only closely angular planet. Was it visible to the world? Maybe, but he was identified with his home on Key West. Was it prominent in his life? Sure looks that way to me!

By the way, to keep this on topic, Pluto was in Hemingway's 10th house, opposed by Saturn in his 4th. Scorpio intercepted in his 3rd.

This was fun to know!
 
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Blackempress

Well-known member
I think Pluto is associated with psychology because it compels us to excavate debris in order to plumb the depths of the unconscious. In Hamaker-Zondag's book entitled, Psychological Astrology, she suggests that the 8th house is the realm of the personal unconscious, where all our repressed personal matters reside.

So if we accept that the 8th house is naturally ruled by Scorpio, then Pluto plays a major role in making us confront unconscious issues, or in forcing us to see the consequences of our refusal to do so.

That old Pluto gets to the unvarnished truth, one way or another!

Psychology is a part of us regardless of a 'subject'. We all need to look at our internal selves just as much as we need to wake up & look at our faces in the mirror everyday! We have to accept where our workings are taking us!

Another Libra Pluto here, except mine is conjunct venus on the IC. Pluto supports venus. I manipulate people to maintain peace and harmony. I like to fix things and keep them as long as possible, versus running out and by new all time.

My attempt at a generalized pluto interpretation:

In a nutshell, pluto represents a system analysis/manipulation process. The process analyzes the characteristics and relationships between all entities within the boundary of focus. Once understood, the system can be manipulated for particular outcomes.

Pluto placements in the chart (natal,progressions, and transits) show where we are LIKELY to focus the pluto process we host as well as where others are likely to focus their pluto process on us.

This is good & fascinating that you're keenly aware of it! Nice.
 

Blackempress

Well-known member
Some wise words re Pluto, Judy. I have learned the hard way to `love' Pluto, as I was once afraid of where it was taking me.

The digging deep seems to be behind the interest in psychology/counselling/motivation. I have an enduring interest/passion/obsession with the shadow side of human nature, and especially the motivation of those who behave way outside the law - eg as in murderers, `gurus' such as Jim Jones and David Koresh, etc.

I would also say that my fascination with the darker side of human nature has only emerged slowly and after transiting Pluto squared my Sun-Pluto conjunction in the late 1980's.......................in much the same way, my son only began wearing black clothes after tr Pluto crossed his Scorpio ASC in the mid 1990's. Tr Pluto has the potential for opening parts of us which may not necessarily be `nice', but are fascinating all the same (but mainly to us). Pluto has the potential for exposing these parts of ourselves which we have a need to acknowledge and integrate if we wish to be whole.....that's my theory anyway.

And in relation to what Judy mentioned about attracting Pluto-type clients........ my ex-husband has Scorpio rising, as has one of my sons. That same son has Pluto-Sun conj, and my other son has Pluto opp Moon - he is somewhat more gentle than the rest of us!! I have only learned to enjoy and even love Pluto through discovering my own preferred expression of it.

I have to agree with the interest in dark-subjects. I could always associate myself with gypsies or occultist, magicians, Gothic, Religious-fanatics (Less in the religious but more in the fanatic sense) types. I found Satire & Satan fascinating & my obsession with intense (deathly) relationships (typical of 8th pluto) had seeped through my creative writing since a teenager. Despite no formal degree my insight surpasses my psychologist sibling/ friends & even the few therapists I visited. :biggrin:

Gotta agree to the T-pluto bringing the traits out. I hit my Square to the Moon lately & started obsessing bout my obsessions including occult & magic.
I still love it (except hate it traumatising my career right now... I mean.... transforming! :annoyed: )

Personally, instead of the "P" shaped glyph, I prefer the Pluto glyph that looks like a person who has thrown up her arms, as if she's saying "All right, already. I give up!" or pleading for mercy. Or, I suppose it looks kind of like lifting one's arms to God and saying "Do with me what you will." To me, that's all part of the Pluto thing. Anyway, it's a very expressive glyph. Unlike the P, sticking its tongue out. But maybe that's appropriate, too!

Nice one! I Personally see pluto as that hefty man who throws one on the floor & steps on the back forcing the (poor) individual to succumb to the commands (because it knows what's good for you) & if you show resistance it gives out it's blows with the physical, emotional or sexual violence whilst ending the aggressive battle by killing. (Hmm..... typical 8th Plutonian story?:whistling:)
 

Judy_AzVirgo

Well-known member
I didn't mean to say that Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th house have NOTHING in common.... they do!

But for instance the matters of the 8th house include "other people's money", especially wills or legacies or one's spouse's estate. These matters are not associated with Pluto or Scorpio. The Greeks associated Pluto (Hades) with wealth, but Scorpio doesn't confer wealth. (I'm waiting!) So Pluto-Scorpio-8th house are not interchangeable. That's all.

Having said that, I'm reminded that when my mother died (which opened my parents' estate), transit Pluto was just entering into my 2nd house, using the Koch system. You'd think 8th instead of 2nd, right? Of course, 8th is directly opposite the 2nd, so there's that connection. But also, the ruler of my Gemini 8th house cusp, Mercury, was by transit very closely conjunct Pluto, so it was also knocking at the door of the 2nd house. So the conjunction of transit Mercury-Pluto mirrored the opposition of my 2nd and 8th houses.

That's not the only thing that went on in my life when she died, and I hope this doesn't look too callous -- but it was on point.
 
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