Delineating Marriage (Medieval Method)

Dirius

Well-known member
Arena remember that the methods, while accurate, are not "exact". And every chart is a bit different.

Also remember that these methods need to be updated to apply to our modern society. For example, bonatti lived in medieval Europe (13th century):

- Getting married "young" was getting married at age 13-17, for both male and female (although particularly for females). Getting married "old" could be considered from ages 25-30, and something like that.

- There was no divorce or breaking up in those times. A marriage was over when one of the spouses died. And in those time's with no proper medicine, simple complications could take someone's life, and people did die much younger, or for simpler causes than today.

So according to Bonatti's method someone could, perhaps, have like 4 husbands in their natal chart. Yet since, it is more likely that these "husbands" will be alive, its also likely those relationships will endure much longer.

Of course I am NOT talking about your particular case, just mentioning there are some stuff we need to take into consideration, so we can understand that the method, while extremely good, is not 100% accurate, because "marriage" in the traditional sense is not the same now (neither is age, life, work, etc).


:tongue::annoyed::bandit:
 
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Arena

Well-known member
Yes very true Dirius.

But if the methods work, they will also produce answers for us in today's world. So the ancients view or astrological meanings will still be similar for cardinal sign (active, on the go, ever changing), fixed (stable and likely to stay very very long in relationships - or at least longer than the other) and mutable (having more than one partner at the same time even, need for variety).

We must admit, that although the world has indeed changed - there are still some people in today's world that stay with the same spouse all their life. Sound like a fixed energy. There are still others that are ever changing and active in this area, much more so than others (cardinal) and there are still those who cheat on their spouses (mutable energy).

In my case, it is most clear that sidereal does fit better with this view than does tropical. Although I must state that Venus in my case is in Gemini and Jupiter is in Sagi in both systems. But both Sun and Moon and ASC change., Sun in cardinal Cancer instead of fixed Leo and Moon in cardinal Aries instead of fixed Taurus (that should also give long lasting relationships).

In both charts my Sun is oriental, so this statement describes my life well since in my "older years" I've taken a man much younger than myself.
According to Ptolemy we seek to find the Sun in the two Oriental Quadrants: from AC to MC, and from DC to IC, because this signifies that the woman will be married in her youth and that she will take young man in her older years, but not an older husband.

I'm just pointing out the fact that by these methods it seems to fit much better with the sidereal chart than tropical. I had my first relationship from young age, 16-19 ... then next one from 21-23 ... then from 23-29 (married) ... then a shorter one at 31 and the current one from 34-42 ... and in between a few others. Does not sound like the fixed Sun Leo-Moon Taurus relationships to me :)

IF we add to this picture some of the astrological "truths" about the ruler of 7th - since it must also play a big role in all this picture. Makes much more sense in sidereal for me as well. Would be Jupiter, placed in 7th Sagi.
If taking tropical it would be Capi Saturn, placed in 12th. Makes no sense at all with this history of relationships/love matters. Capricorn in 7th has the usual meaning of having a much older spouse (I've not had any relationship at all having a much older partner... they are usually same age, or younger). Capricorn in 7th can also mean wanting a marriage that secures you financially, being attracted to stability. Well, that has never been the case for me :) Just saying, it has indeed been really worthwhile to look into and study my sidereal chart to make the comparison. It makes much more sense in all astrological sense.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Of course, I was merely talking about some concepts.

So I agree the method works wells.

:biggrin:

Anyways, having the marriage significators in "fixed" signs doesn't imply healthy long well established relationships. Nor does, having for example capricorn as ruler of the 7th imply and "older" person or a "secure" marriage.

Those defitinions of the planets as people work in some specific situations, but shouldn't be taken as literal descriptions. It is usually a combination of the 7th lord + venus + moon + the signs they fall in, that they "sort" of give a description. But to be honest, since so many factors are involded is always reaaaaally hard to get it right.

Remember also that this particular method was Bonatti's...and there are other authos that, while having similar methods, vary a bit. It is also helpfull to know bonatti, for example, use Porphyry house system and tropical zodiac. So it can vary depending on the chart.
 
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Arena

Well-known member
I guess it is appropriate to also look into my partner's chart for this method.

By sidereal chart his Venus is in fixed Leo and oriental quarter and there is only one planet between Venus and MC, the Moon. This certainly fits much better with his love life story than does a tropical Venus in mutable Virgo. He only had one girlfriend before me, that was in his teenage years - and no other lovers. So I am his only real long term relationship.

My ex husband's chart shows his Venus in occidental quarter if the birth time is right and there are three planets between it and MC, counting either way. He married me, then we divorced and he had a baby with one woman - did not marry her or have a relationship with her (but she probably does count as one of those planets since they have a child together and therefore are in touch with each other all their lives) and now he has his third woman with whom he has had 3 children with and has stayed with for long term. Sidereal chart shows his Venus in cardinal Aries and tropical chart shows his Venus in fixed Taurus. He is more of a Venus in Aries type, had quite a few lovers and obviously more than one "marriage".
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I guess it is appropriate to also look into my partner's chart for this method.

By sidereal chart his Venus is in fixed Leo and oriental quarter and there is only one planet between Venus and MC, the Moon. This certainly fits much better with his love life story than does a tropical Venus in mutable Virgo. He only had one girlfriend before me, that was in his teenage years - and no other lovers. So I am his only real long term relationship.

My ex husband's chart shows his Venus in occidental quarter if the birth time is right and there are three planets between it and MC, counting either way. He married me, then we divorced and he had a baby with one woman - did not marry her or have a relationship with her (but she probably does count as one of those planets since they have a child together and therefore are in touch with each other all their lives) and now he has his third woman with whom he has had 3 children with and has stayed with for long term. Sidereal chart shows his Venus in cardinal Aries and tropical chart shows his Venus in fixed Taurus. He is more of a Venus in Aries type, had quite a few lovers and obviously more than one "marriage".
Omnisphericus posted a brief summary of the technique for delineating Marriage :smile:

This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled
which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage.
The rules one can learn for a short period of time,
but the practice is what is needed
in order these rules to become second nature of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart.
This is what I would like to do on this thread:
to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.



The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.
But consider also if there are impediments to these places.
If there is affliction to 7th house (by some Malefic's square or opposition), to the Moon (aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individiaul Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.

Bonatti:



Example:
35kl8as.png


This is the chart of Akihito, Emperor of Japan

His chart is given on astrodatabank site as a chart of a man with successful marriage.

First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

No need to calculate further, Jupiter is Almuten of Marriage.
Look how strong is that Jupiter up there on MC.
He is receiving the Sun by sextile and the Part of Marriage on the Ascendant.

7th house cusp not impeded.
Its lord - Mercury, cadent (but in the first sign), not afflicted by Malefic's square or opposition, not by combustion.
Moon - not afflicted.
Venus - Saturn receives here in Aquarius.
Part of Marriage not afflicted, but indeed highlightened by ASC and Sun.

Lord (and also Almuten) of the 1st, and the Lord (and also Almuten) of the 7th are in Sextile. Jupiter receives Mercury.

Quite fortunate chart for marriage.
 

Arena

Well-known member
Well, the use of tropical vs sidereal in ancient times seems vague ... f.ex. it seems like Valens used sidereal for measurement of zodiac even though many believe that he used tropical.

Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical? The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.

Yes, JA, I did see this method as well with the Almuten - it was just a bit too much to go through all those calculations right now :)

Anyways, Happy New Year to you all!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, the use of tropical vs sidereal in ancient times seems vague ...

f.ex. it seems like Valens used sidereal for measurement of zodiac

even though many believe that he used tropical.

Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical?
The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.

Yes, JA, I did see this method as well with the Almuten - it was just a bit too much to go through all those calculations right now :)

Anyways, Happy New Year to you all!
Thanks Arena and Happy New Year to all as well :smile:
Perhaps 2015 is a year when we shall find more answers to this 'enigma'


After two thousand years have passed
techniques that have been translated from one ancient language to another
before being then translated into modern English
require dedicated study and there are those who are keen to do these studies
some discussion at
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8579&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical? The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.

We really shouldn't get into this discussion (given this is a marriage thread), so perhaps we can create a new topic regarding sidereal vs tropical zodiac? I really don't want to derail the thread from its original topic, but I want to answer arena regarding bonatti using tropical.

But I will mention:

We do have proof that Bonatti used the tropical zodiac:

From Liber Astronomiae, Second Tractate Part 1:

I shall speak therefore, following in the footsteps of our venerable predecessors, of things which are useful in this work, remembering their opinions, namely those of Ptolemy, Hermes, Iaphar, Thebit, Alchabitius, Alcaiat, Alchindi, Alenzedegoz, Messala, Adila, Iergis, Albenait, Aardimon, Arestali, and others who studied in this science.
and a few paragrapths later he says:

It has been said in the preceding chapter why the signs were ordered the way they are. In this chapter it must be declared why the enumeration begins from Aries and not from some other one of the signs, since the heaven is spherical body and every sphere lacks a beginning. And since it lacks a beginning, it also lacks and end; and since it lacks a beginning and an end, it lacks a middle point which is excluded in corporeal substance. The enumeration of the signs began with Aries because the circle of the signs intersects the circle of the equator at the beginning of Aries and at the point opposite to it, not at a right angle but obliquely. Thus, six signs are northern and six southern, as is discussed more broadly elsewhere. The part which is norther is stronger than that which is southern, because when the Sun leaves Pisces, it enters Aries, and Aries is the first sign of the northern part.

Another reason why the enumeration of the signs began from Aries, is because when the Sun enters Aries, the days begin to become longer than the nights; whence, since increse is a noble thing, the wise of this art were agreed that the enumeration of the signs ought to begin with the one in which the increase begins.

Here he talks about the Spring equinox. In "sidereal" astrology, Aries won't always be the spring equinox. Besides most of the authors he mentions in the first paragraph are Tropical users. So bonatti did use tropical zodiac. I would like to know where the idea of Vallens using sidereal comes from, if we might continue this on another thread?
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
We really shouldn't get into this discussion (given this is a marriage thread), so perhaps we can create a new topic regarding sidereal vs tropical zodiac?

There are many already here on the forum. One only has to search to find them.

Arena, while the method outlined by Omni is good, it is not thorough. This is why learning traditional astrology cannot happen on the internet alone. There was a time early in my study when I thought perhaps sidereal worked better with my chart as well. I've since learned more about the techniques, and, well, grown. That doesn't mean I don't still find sidereal valid (and I do believe that Valens was using the tropical zodiac as well...I am looking for a reference for verification...) and for certain Martin Gansten is a traditional astrologer who has had great success using traditional methods in the sidereal zodiac.

http://www.martingansten.com/

Abby, you said

I calculated mercury to be my almuten of marriage. It has good aspects in my chart. So that would mean a good marriage?

You would need to define "good aspects" and then also take a peek at sect/domain and house position. Is the almuten of marriage impeded in anyway? How about the lord/lady of the 7th directly? Can that planet (or the almuten) regard the 7th? If not, does it give or receive testimony from a planet who can? If so, which and how? And then there is the reality that while the chart may show something, life can get in the way. This is why pinpointing times of marriage, for example, requires more than just a natal chart. We have derivative charts for a reason.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
There are many already here on the forum. One only has to search to find them.

Arena, while the method outlined by Omni is good, it is not thorough. This is why learning traditional astrology cannot happen on the internet alone. There was a time early in my study when I thought perhaps sidereal worked better with my chart as well. I've since learned more about the techniques, and, well, grown. That doesn't mean I don't still find sidereal valid (and I do believe that Valens was using the tropical zodiac as well...I am looking for a reference for verification...) and for certain Martin Gansten is a traditional astrologer who has had great success using traditional methods in the sidereal zodiac.

http://www.martingansten.com/

Abby, you said



You would need to define "good aspects" and then also take a peek at sect/domain and house position. Is the almuten of marriage impeded in anyway? How about the lord/lady of the 7th directly? Can that planet (or the almuten) regard the 7th? If not, does it give or receive testimony from a planet who can? If so, which and how? And then there is the reality that while the chart may show something, life can get in the way. This is why pinpointing times of marriage, for example, requires more than just a natal chart. We have derivative charts for a reason.

Thanks. So in the 7th house I have chiron and north node Gemini. The chiron trines mercury (mercury is my almuten of marriage), mercury is in libra in 11th house and also has mutual reception to venus in virgo 11th house. Mercury sextiles Uranus in sag 1st house. The lord of 7th is my venus in virgo which sextiles Saturn and square Uranus and squares chiron 7th house. So based on that, I don't know how to read further what that means for the marriage or how many partners. I mean I know the mercury in libra 11th house is a good thing as well as it's mutual reception to venus. But how to I translate that.

Oh and the only poor aspect I can see is mercury square Neptune 7 degrees wide.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Abby

drop chiron or Tsmall will come out with a loaned battle-axe from me at you. Libras are not kind gentle peace lovng signs.. i can attest with it with my libra merc. Do i look like peace loving person when it comes to communication to you? uh huh...
She will recreate the Battle of Actium. I know her. lol

and she will warcry "This is Hellenistic Astrology!"

if you bring chiron to me, you will get Kuzka's mother (google it). we are not nice towards chiron

just warning you
T
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
Thanks. So in the 7th house I have chiron and north node Gemini. The chiron trines mercury (mercury is my almuten of marriage), mercury is in libra in 11th house and also has mutual reception to venus in virgo 11th house. Mercury sextiles Uranus in sag 1st house. The lord of 7th is my venus in virgo which sextiles Saturn and square Uranus and squares chiron 7th house. So based on that, I don't know how to read further what that means for the marriage or how many partners. I mean I know the mercury in libra 11th house is a good thing as well as it's mutual reception to venus. But how to I translate that.

Oh and the only poor aspect I can see is mercury square Neptune 7 degrees wide.

Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity...and without a chart I really can't help you more.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Abby

drop chiron or Tsmall will come out with a loaned battle-axe from me at you. Libras are not kind gentle peace lovng signs.. i can attest with it with my libra merc. Do i look like peace loving person when it comes to communication to you? uh huh...
She will recreate the Battle of Actium. I know her. lol

and she will warcry "This is Hellenistic Astrology!"

if you bring chiron to me, you will get Kuzka's mother (google it). we are not nice towards chiron

just warning you
T

Aha yes, indeed you and I are blunt with our words. I was just thinking that today. Makes sense because libra is a masculine sign isn't it? And yeah, I definitely was a peace loving child growing up but life has turned me into a nasty pasty.
 
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Abby83

Well-known member
Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity...and without a chart I really can't help you more.

Yes, all of that is correct, and, part of marriage is sextile asc. Asc is 23 degrees scorpio.

As for venus, it semisextiles mercury. Does that count?

Unfortunately I don't think I understand what intercepted sign means. I mean I searched it on the net. It says that a whole sign is enclosed in a house and does not appear at the beginning of a house.

Do you want me to post you my chart?
 
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Abby83

Well-known member
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages.
So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.
that's not exactly 'all' Tsmall said though
Tsmall said much more than that :smile:

i.e.
aspects to Mercury do not necessarily show potential partners, marriages UNLESS Mercury is the almuten of marriage
Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity

...and without a chart I really can't help you more.
so Tsmall has said Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception per se because reception requires an aspect
so
this particular examples shows 'generosity'
but not reception
 
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