Depression

Victoria

Well-known member
Hello all.
Thank you so much for having a look.

My question is basically if i should accept a offer to go in hospital
to get treatment for my depression or not.
This is the biggest depression I've had in my life,
and now my 10 + year eating disorder is kicking up again.
I have gone 4 days without food, and I really don't have the energy to get up and shower and get dressed and go to the shop.
My therapist is worried I'll try and kill myself,
but the thing is, I had a friend who did that, so I would never ever.
And even though right now everything is hard for me, there has never
been anyone with more hope in life.

I'm worried going to the hospital will defeat me, and take away the last feeling of "I can do it" and also, it sounds pretty scary.
I don't feel lost, I just feel tired.

Is it possible to see why I feel like this in my chart?
Also, advice on what I should do is welcomed.

I've included natal and horary
 

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MTTY05

Well-known member
From a non-astrological point of view, I think you should definitley go to the hospital since it's been offered to you, as long as you can afford it. There's nothing wrong with seeking help, and I don't think you should view it as a defeat at all. Really, it's more of a victory to reclaim your mental health. The time for you to start feeling better is now, you deserve it. Everyone deserves to feel satisfied in life, you're no different.

I don't really feel like I'm knowledgeable enough to give you an astrological interpretation. But I do know that you shouldn't have to feel miserable. I encourage you to seek assistance. You have no where to go but up, better days are ahead. Best of luck!
 

sandstone

Banned
hi victoria,

i agree strongly with what MTTY05 has said to you.. i think it is wise to go to the hospital especially if a few professionals like your therapist and/or doctor are recommending this.. it is ultimately your call though and you do sound positive in your note too which is good.. i can only really echoMTTY05 comments in that i wouldn't think going to the hospital is a sign of defeat so much as a sign of your willingness to successfully beat any issues of depression..

i don't do horary, but perhaps if you post in the that section others who do can comment from that angle.. the chart was done with saturn exact square ascendant.. saturn is the planet connected to depression and at present the t pluto to this part of your chart - saturn/neptune opp jupiter - is wanting to completely transform that area of your life.. the mars retrograde is close to your ascendant at present and will continue to move retrograde until about april 13th.. you could think of this mars retro transit as wanting to re-examine your attempts at moving forward here.. it will go over it's path for the past few months, before moving forward on a stronger footing come the april 13th date.. it might be a good time to withdraw or re-examine everything that has taken place the past couple of months n preparation to move forward in a stronger and more confident and assured way.. i would think of any re-examination, or attempt at understanding your situation more fully as a positive thing at this point that can only be of benefit to you... cheers james
 

Shanti

Well-known member
Victoria

I agree with MTTY05 in this.
You may need help and fact is that according to your chart it is so much pointing to your 4th house now in terms of transits and progressions that your attention and care now should be your own emotional wellbeing and inner happiness.

You have in your birth chart a saturn/Neptune conjunction in your
4th house. This can give obstacles and challenges in having emotional equlibrium. If the birthchart is a blueprint of our work and issues for this lifetime then one of yours is to grow in emotional wellbeing. Saturn may show areas where there is fears and resistance. But may improve when we go for it.
There might be issues from childhood, roots, mother and nurturing that were not optimal (also exact square Moon/Pluto hint at this).

Timing is there for developments in this area now...

*Your prog ascendent is squaring Saturn 4th
*Transit Pluto is right on saturn 4th
*Eclipse july -11 was right opposite saturn/neptune 4th
*Transiting Pluto is right on saturn/neptune 4th
* Progressed Neptune in 4th was stationary in october.

So there seems to be much happening in your inner being now that are confusing and hard to feel, depressive.
By embracing yourself and your feelings and getting the help needed for this you will be better in due time. Awareness with unconditional love for oneself is the ultimate healer.

Another hint of similar developments in chart is that
Progressed Sun is activating your Moon-Pluto square.
P Sun-45-Pluto
P Sun-45-Moon
The progressed Sun is a symbol for our identity in development.
By it's aspects to your Moon-Pluto square there is things that are ripe to
transform in your emotional programming and inheritance.

The pluto transit through your 4th house over saturn/neptune speaks the same language. You may have some baggage to let go of for a lighter journey in the future.

Therapies is probably very good now. Transiting Jupiter in 8th is good for starting positive transformative regimes. Transiting Jupiter will next month be trining your sun in 12th, and also saturn/neptune 4th which may give help and relief through transformative practice.

***
The horary chart which I did convert to a Prashna (vedic horary).
Holds your chart ruler moon in 12th house. And 12th ruler mercury aspects 1st house. this is maybe a hint that seeking help at hospital (12th) is a good option.

In this horary chart saturn is in 4th house exactly squaring your ascendent which again symbolically describes the issue.

OM

Hälsningar från Stockholm
 
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kimbermoon

Well-known member
If I might offer, I agree that if you are experiencing suicidal ideation, and simply cannot cope, then a temporary stay in the hospital would be advised. I would share my personal experience:

I felt depression come on especially in my teen years...not for any specific reason, but simply because I felt ostracized, lonely, disempowered and extremely shy; easily intimidated. What I thought was love finally came to me in my senior year of high school, and the depression faded...finally I felt accepted, loved and re-empowered for a time...I thought I could just leave the depression behind...however through my years of maturity and being married with children, combined with a series of tragedies and death as I turned 30, the despair and yearning became stronger again, and I could not feel fulfilled in the marriage which was rather emotionally abusive. I decided to leave the marriage but what followed was a series of crisis, rather than a renewed sense of freedom. We learned that my mother had a critical heart problem and died a year later: my father was diagnosed with prostrate cancer soon thereafter and we feared for the loss of him as well; instead he fought against the cancer and two years later actually re-married, which caused some contention in some of my siblings; then seeing him through the process as the cancer spread until he too died 2 years later; within a day of the anniversary of Mom's death. There there came an onslaught of executing the will which brought out the worst in some of my siblings, and finally I had to extricate myself from them and actually move away...long story short, I was hit by a barrage of life draining experiences that pounded away at me on a continual basis. Just as I was about to hit 40, the anti-depressants were no longer working and I found myself falling apart in the doctor's office as an emotional wreck. Wisely she sent me to the ER for a psych evaluation, and I did manage to find some relief simply by being taking out of a highly stressful environment overnight.
I went through a period of being in therapy, which helped to a degree but the stressors kept building in my world and for a time I was on suicide watch as well. I finally got more appropriate treatments to treat the chemical imbalance in my brain that contributed to the depression. And then something magickal happened, and I found myself on the road to recovery through my own volition. It was a long and arduous struggle, but somehow I knew that I was the only one who could lead me to a complete healing.

In retrospect, I believe that the depression itself was part of a divine intervention construed to help me re-connect with my own inner divinity...it forces a person to really get to the heart of the matter of the internal goings-on that contribute to a depressive state of being...and that is what depression truly is: a state of being. Looking back, I see that the solution was always in my own hands, and while talk therapy was somewhat helpful, it was by my own doing that I ultimately found my resolution, and that was based on regaining a sense of faith and trust in life...and gaining the total belief in receiving support from my personal spiritual guides and muse.
The truth comes down to the fact that, 'as we think, so we become'...the solution then lies in changing our perceptions about life, restoring the sense of there being a universal plan: we must also find ways to change our state of being through the use of the directed mind; this involves changing our attitudes, our beliefs in negativity and defeat, as well as altering our judgments as well as our expectations in life. As within, so without, and it all starts from within.
I do believe that astrological counselling in depth can be as successful as traditional talk therapy. Your chart depicts that you are here largely to figure things out for yourself rather than to rely on others to fix your problems and correct your misunderstandings. Indeed you have repressed feelings of insecurity and worthlessness that need to be overcome but inevitabley the only validation that matters comes from ourself. When we expect it to come from others, we are typically sorely disappointed.
Currently there are significant developmental changes happening in your life, as shown by the heavy transits of significant planets like Pluto, Saturn and Uranus. Pluto relates to political restructuring, yet on a personal level it relates to whether one feels empowered in their own right or disempowered by others...the choice is ours to make...we can either submit to being a victim in life, or we can chose to be the victor...we all have that inner creative spark that can be utilized to change our circumstances, if we choose to make that our primary intention.
 

Victoria

Well-known member
Thank you so much for all of your answers everyone.

I do feel a bit better today, since I am actually online talking to you, lovely people. I will take a moment and a breath and really think about
what all of you have said about me oing to the hospital.

It's something that we have where I live, and it's not an emergency case,
which means I'll be free to walk around town, be on my own, go home on the weekends, meet up with friends and everything. Just sleeping there, and not have to worry about food (it'll be prepered for me) and if I cant sleep I'll be allowed to be in bed (or atleats that's what my therapists told me)

I am in no way suicidal, I would never, and havent even given thought to ever doing that since a very close friend killed himself back in january 07.
When we were 17, it's shaken me to my core, and it stopped me from being harmfull to myself and the thought of ever doing that, I can tell you, it is never going to happen. I choose life, as they say.

I know from my previous depressions that there has been a feeling of "it's never going to change", but that's not at all what I feel this time.
I know it will change, I know it'll go away and I'll feel better.
Nothing lasts, I know that. But I still feel empty, and started to feel a bit scared and obsessive about food about a month ago.
Normally my big depressions last for about 6 months, but I'd like to get back to my life 100%, which is why I don't know if this hospital thing is the best for me. I get big control issues with food when I get depressed.
And I think that's what makes my therapist so scared, that I wont eat,
and since depression means loss of consentration, I never remember to get anything when I'm at the shop, so I just stand there for 30-60 min
feeling and looking lost, and then I feel like I'm having a breakdown, so I go home. And now it has been getting to the point where I really don't want to get out of bed, because walking seems so unbelieveably tiresome.
Today I feel alot better, than yesterday (I went and got takeout today, all on my own) but I don't feel ...good enough/perfect/well.

I think this is the biggest depression I've had, just because there seems to be no reason for it. I've had it hanging overhead since december,
but since about the first week of january it's been really bad, and as I say, the big depressions in the past has been about 6 months.
I feel slow, heavy, confused, down, and empty. Heavy emptyness, sortof.
Not really desperate and suicidal.

I agree with you, in that it wouldn't be such a bad idea to take the help that is offerd me. My therapist is worried since my family all live far away, and I'm definitely in the phase of 'shutting out' my friends, and I live in my own flat and I'm responsible for paying all my own bills and getting everywhere myself, so she's worried I won't turn up for a session, and then there'll be nothing she can do, if I don't pick up my phone (which i won't do when I feel low).

I guess, what I'm really asking is if there is an astrological explination for why. Why now, and how can it be resolved, or more like, what can I focus on to recover.

I will keep going to therapy (going the 8th) and I have a dr. appointment (on the 10). My therapist says she would like for me to think about going on anti depressants, but since my main focus or obsession when I get depressed is my ongoing battle with food, or indeed, without food,
I fear I'll feel worse when/if I take them and gain weight, which is one of the sideeffects. I have never been on any antidepressions before, as I say, I -KNOW- it will blow over, and everything will feel ok again, I have more faith, hope and believe in life and love and light than anyone I've ever know. Just sometimes it gets difficult, that's all.

Sorry this is such a messy response but my concentration is way off.
Thank you all so much for your help and your thoughts. :)
Please, keep 'em coming!




Og til deg Shanti - Takk, søta bror!
 

sandstone

Banned
Thank you so much for all of your answers everyone.

I get big control issues with food when I get depressed.
And I think that's what makes my therapist so scared, that I wont eat,
and since depression means loss of concentration, I never remember to get anything when I'm at the shop, so I just stand there for 30-60 min
feeling and looking lost, and then I feel like I'm having a breakdown, so I go home. And now it has been getting to the point where I really don't want to get out of bed, because walking seems so unbelievably tiresome.
Today I feel a lot better, than yesterday (I went and got takeout today, all on my own) but I don't feel ...good enough/perfect/well.

I think this is the biggest depression I've had, just because there seems to be no reason for it. I've had it hanging overhead since december,
but since about the first week of january it's been really bad, and as I say, the big depressions in the past has been about 6 months.
I feel slow, heavy, confused, down, and empty. Heavy emptiness, sort of.
Not really desperate and suicidal.

I agree with you, in that it wouldn't be such a bad idea to take the help that is offered me. My therapist is worried since my family all live far away, and I'm definitely in the phase of 'shutting out' my friends, and I live in my own flat and I'm responsible for paying all my own bills and getting everywhere myself, so she's worried I won't turn up for a session, and then there'll be nothing she can do, if I don't pick up my phone (which i won't do when I feel low).

I guess, what I'm really asking is if there is an astrological explanation for why. Why now, and how can it be resolved, or more like, what can I focus on to recover.


Og til deg Shanti - Takk, søta bror!


hi victoria,

thanks for your comments here. i really hope your situation changes for the better.

there are always going to be astrologers offering an astrological explanation for the why and why now type questions! to be able to offer this in advance so that someone might have the foreknowledge to be able to benefit from it is the hard part..

the best advice i can give is for you to listen to the therapist.. i think the transit of pluto at your saturn/neptune conjunction is particularly challenging.. here is what ebertin says of pluto at saturn/neptune - heavy emotional depression, difficult growth or development of one's faculties. - a serious illness.

pluto is a slow moving planet and it is hanging around in this area for the next year or 2. these 2 planets in your chart are generational and represent the idea of letting go or renunciation..they are in a very subjective personal part of your chart.. it sounds as though you are mostly doing the renunciation with your food intake..

i see saturn moving thru some midpoints that i think connect to your situation from early december which connect to the sa directions.. shanti pointed out sp asc at your natal saturn as well.. asc arc directions give very similar info.. moon/saturn and moon/neptune midpoints are 25- 26 libra right where saturn was in early december and where solar arc mercury is at present.. i think the data connects with your latest episode of depression... saturn will return to this area as it is a slow moving planet mid to late april and one last time mid til end of august.. t pluto will continue to sit on your natal saturn as well..

i really think the best wisdom is to listen to the therapist and continue to stay positive and think of it like you have said here as something that will pass! i think this particular spot astrologically is a bit more challenging, but you will work thru it.. cheers james
 

Blackempress

Well-known member
i think the transit of pluto at your saturn/neptune conjunction is particularly challenging.. here is what ebertin says of pluto at saturn/neptune - heavy emotional depression, difficult growth or development of one's faculties. - a serious illness.

pluto is a slow moving planet and it is hanging around in this area for the next year or 2. these 2 planets in your chart are generational and represent the idea of letting go or renunciation..they are in a very subjective personal part of your chart.. it sounds as though you are mostly doing the renunciation with your food intake..

*GULP*.. I have Saturn conj Pluto already too........ tis really explains my maniac depression. Got some Jupiter transits favorable working anti to this & it's no wonder that I'm bipolar nowadays.
Anyway to jump over this transit or atleast make it better? I'm a doc & was seriously considering taking Antidepressants for my mood swings.

I'm even having my bout of eating disorders crawling out. but it's the opposite of Victoria's...... I binge & have weight problems.
 

Victoria

Well-known member
Hi again, sorry i've been quiet for so long.
I've been looking over all of your responses and i'd like to say thank you, all of you, first of all. It's been major help just having someone to console in, outside of an office.

My therapist told me that she thinks I'm getting a bit better, since I am now going out by my self, and even though it's tiresome like HELL I am at least trying. My mother has come to take care of me, so I'm not alone.
Which, even with all of our problems, when I get this down, she cooks she cleans and she let's me yell at her without getting mad, because she knows it's just me feeling so bad, and not real.

Blackempress, that our charts are that alike and we are both at our own end with food issues, that's quite amazing to me! I am absolutely starting to worry, but offcourse keeping it internalized, as I've started to purge and starve myself. I think i must have cut my self while purging, because there was blood on my fingers and in the womit. No moral lessons, please,
I am ABSOLUTELY taking that seriously.
I am also worried about just to what extent I am worried about being on antidepressiants b.c.o the fact that 1 out of 100 or something will gain a few. I don't really know what to make of that or do with that.

And, dear James, are you saying this is going to get worse??
1. thought KILL ME NOW
2. thought- how??
3. thought - .......

Please tell me more of midpoints, as I know absolutely nothing of them.
or anyway if there is a problem coming up, tell me, I'd like to know.
Because then I get to choose more wisely rather than wander and worry.

I've kept most of my humor, and I am still making plans and wishing for the future, and my life has taught me that everything changes,
and everything passes.

I'm feeling a lot less down today. I even called my friend and chatted with her for 15 minutes, and laughed today. I don't feel well at all, i'm tired, my concentration is gone, my sence of comfort or security is gone, i don't have faith or elasticity/freedom within myself. I don't like people looking at me, or smiling at me or even being around anyone, really.
But, I do feel some of the feeling of being pressed down is somwhat gone.

Thank you so much, please keep talking with/to me.
I promise to try and respond as often as I can.
XX
 

sandstone

Banned
hey, the last thing i would ever want to do with this info is scare someone!!

black empress, - you have a different chart and the transits are different just using that as a beginning.. cheers

victoria, midpoints are the mid point of 2 planets.. those who work with midpoints often also use aspects out to the 8th harmonic, so 1 midpoint will technically have 8 midpoints to it if you use the 45 degree aspect.. direct midpoints are the direct midpoint to the 2 planets and indirect midpoints are the other 7 that are 45(twice), 90(twice), 135(twice), 180(once)degrees from the midpoint..

once you get your head around this you can see that a planet can be in touch with a midpoint a number of different ways...sometimes midpoints will overlap and be the centre for more then just one midpoint... when this happens any planet that crosses this midpoint by transit or direction will be more significant as it will engage more then just 2 planets... does all this make sense so far?
 

Shanti

Well-known member
Victoria

Jupiter transiting 8th of therapies as ruler of your 7th house, is applying to trine your sun. (exact in late februari).
Therapists are probably beneficial for you now in strenghtening your self identity(sun).

Remember that you are a "sun in your own universe".
Always light, good and love in the core Self.
The other stuff that troubles you are just changing phenomena in the dance of life, sometimes dark sometimes joyful...
The dark stuff disappears in the light of the sun, as shadows disappear in the light of the rising sun..It just takes some time.............
this is the sayings of yogis and masters since the beginning of time.

Your period planet in jyotish is venus.
Venus is transiting 7th house in it's vedic exaltation sign. So some beneficial contacts with other people and friends.

In month of mars transiting venus joins transiting jupiter in your 8th house.
With 2 benefics in the house of transformation it seems like there is hope
for good therapeutic developments.
Transiting Jupiter continues then to trine 4th house saturn and neptune as well.

So in the midst of challenging pluto in 4th house there is hope of positive steps to be taken and insights made that will give you power to improve.

Om
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Relative to the horary question:
(Following is not in accordance with standard horary delineation and uses whole sign house format)

-querent = 1st house = Moon
-offer of treatment = 10th = Mars
-querent's significator (Moon) is in first house = + testimony
-in its domicile = + testimony
-treatment offer significator Mars retrogrades back toward Moon, and Moon flows toward Mars = + testimony
-Moon is applying toward a sextile aspect with treatment offer significator Mars = + testimony

From my delineation of this horary question, the answer regarding the treatment offer is yes...
 

Mandy

Well-known member
Hi Victoria,

It’s really great to hear that your mum has come to be with you. I want to say that I can, kind of, understand what you are going through. I battled with anorexia in my teens and have known several girls in the same situation. One of the key things that kept me motivated against starving myself once I started to get better was the depressions that come with lack of nutrients going to the brain. I know anorexia is very powerful, but it only manifests within you, which gives you the ultimate last word on the matter.

Stop purging!-both of you! If you have done any reading on your condition, you would have noticed that you can give yourself a cardiac arrest by doing that. If the thought of a natural death, self-induced by such a scenario, does not frighten you enough, can I tell you the next part of the story, should you likely not die in such an event?

1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7318508.../t/eating-disorder-rootof-terri-schiavo-case/
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case

In terms of getting better, if you are going into hospital for the anorexia, so that they can help you eat, then ok. But, if you are going into hospital for a psychological problem, and you are not contemplating, or idealising, suicide, then you are doing it unnecessarily. Have you ever heard the phrase “the devil makes work for idle thumbs?” This would describe you being institutionalised or medicated, for the symptoms which you report here. From the professional perspective of your therapist, I can understand why she would encourage you to do both. This way, she is guaranteed, that in her care, nothing adverse happened to you and SHE did everything as per protocol stipulations = her job, her financial income, is safe. These are primarily her interests (i.e., not for you personally).

It would be in your best interests to avoid going into hospital or taking medication. Firstly, as far as I understand, being in hospital would mean you have to be medicated, since it is not a hotel. Secondly, I would not recommend you start rolling down the road of psycho-effective medications. This is because there is no reliable scientific (or otherwise) evidence that these work. They are grossly under-investigated, because science has not advanced far enough yet to understand the brain, and, given that you are having to hear this from me, and not from your therapist, would make me not trust your therapist enough to swallow anything that s/he prescribes.

It is a fact that there are also plenty of accompanying side effects to these drugs which are directly related to making you worse. It is a fact that suicide rates have gone up (drastically) as a direct result of Prozac since its release. Prozac is the most commonly prescribed anti-depressant and it is marketed under many different names. It is most commonly prescribed under the guise that “it has the least adverse consequences”. As true as that might be, these are still very, very serious and include: weight gain, suicidal ideation (which may not reverse back once you stop taking the meds), sexual dysfunction, inability to orgasm, problems urinating, and the list goes on. In such scenarios other drugs will be brought in to counter the side-effects mentioned (and other common ones), and many of these drugs are addictive and can do irreversible damage. By taking these things you are messing with your brain. You are tampering with brain chemistry. You are handing over all control of a situation (and yourself) of which you could come out of better and stronger than you ever were before, if you had not resorted to medication and institutionalisation. I’ve had several friends who have tried anti-depressants and they have all said it was the worst experience of their life. Be aware that by taking a drug, which is affecting your brain, it will affect your experience, which can be a bigger nightmare than you can imagine.

I think that by virtue of their interrelatedness confusing things, it is important to separate the eating disorder and the depression. You need to make it your priority to deal with the depression because unless you are strong in your mind, you are going to fail with the other thing. Get clear in yourself that to beat the depression you need to eat, the food is your medication. Once you are better, and feeing happier and more empowered, THEN you can successfully diet, exercise and shift any weight you want off you, again. But, now, that HAS to go sit in the back burner. Food is your medicine (and exercise is too).

Given that A) your worries are about losing control (i.e., of your mind; your weight etc.) and B) that you need your own control to get better, and to sustain your improvement, why would you want to give it up? There isn’t a good enough reason. If you need control, power, to pull the hand brake, then why would you give it up to something, especially when that thing has great potential to make you feel worse? There isn’t a good enough reason. This is the time to be strong and to fight – LITERALLY. I know the information I am giving you is bleak, but that is what happens when you give up the power you HAVE within you. Think back to a time when you were happy. Wasn’t it all great? That was the result of you and your own growth, and not medication.

If you think you will never get better then please understand that this way of thinking is a HABIT you have forged for yourself and not the truth. However hard or artificial it might seem, start thinking a different way, talking to yourself in a different way, and you will see that will become a new habit of yours that you are doing automatically, in the sunshine and above water; learning to swim.

Also, since there is no good reason to take medication, and no scientific proof for its benefits, you may as well try something herbal if you feel that you need a little help. I know that St. John’s Wort is a highly effective remedy (mind: if you are taking oral contraceptives it will make their job less effective) for alleviating mood depression, with no side-effects at all. But, you must take it with nutritious food to get the benefits.

I wish you so much happiness in the future. I have no doubt that if it is what you really want, you can get over all of this and move mountains one day; achieve anything that you want to achieve. Please welcome the changes that this all brings, they are for your good. Trust the Universe. Laugh more, the world IS a crazy place (and so are most people around you) and turn the music up. You don’t need to reply to me, just understand that I have your best interests at heart. My response is informed (I have a degree in psychology; I am undertaking post-graduate training in neuroscience; and I volunteer weekly on a suicide line). However, please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions.

All the best. xx
 

kimbermoon

Well-known member
I do believe that astrological counselling in depth can be as successful as traditional talk therapy. Your chart depicts that you are here largely to figure things out for yourself rather than to rely on others to fix your problems and correct your misunderstandings. Indeed you have repressed feelings of insecurity and worthlessness that need to be overcome but inevitabley the only validation that matters comes from ourself. When we expect it to come from others said:
I must agree again that being hospitalized needs some serious consideration...unless you feel totally out of control in your life and non-functioning, it is like giving your life over to the medical profession which has increasingly been showing it's more deliberately negative side [see Mike Adams, from inforwars.com] To set the record straight I would also note that in my case Prozac has definitely been the best thing in my life and I am here to say that it is inaccurate to listen to all the negative responses being circulated about that particular drug...I have never experienced any of the so-called side effects...I have personally researched such issues quite intensely and I believe in the workings of the serotonin re-uptake inhibitors which work very differently from traditional anti-depressants. As the brain chemistry gets out of whack sometimes it requires a combination of a couple of different drugs to work effectively. And I honestly believe that there is a spiritual purpose involved in working through depression. Just from my experience.
 

Mandy

Well-known member
I must agree again that being hospitalized needs some serious consideration...unless you feel totally out of control in your life and non-functioning, it is like giving your life over to the medical profession which has increasingly been showing it's more deliberately negative side [see Mike Adams, from inforwars.com] To set the record straight [not to discount your generosity on this thread, but you are not setting the record straight, you are talking about one person's experience.] I would also note that in my case Prozac has definitely been the best thing in my life and I am here to say that it is inaccurate to listen to all the negative responses being circulated about that particular drug [erm, lol, how on earth can it be "inaccurate" to gather for oneself FACTUAL information regarding a drug entering the brain, no less, that could have disasterous and, YES, life-threatening consequences?]...I have never experienced any of the so-called side effects...I have personally researched such issues quite intensely and I believe [with all due respect, your belief is completely irrelevant in all this. From a patients perspective it really doesn't matter whether the drugs in question are categorised as 'traditional' or 'current' or 'so new they are not yet realsed'. what matters is how they work and the fact, whether you believe it, or not, is that doctors do not know how it works. If they did, and if they are good people, they would ensure that it works every time.] in the workings of the serotonin re-uptake inhibitors which work very differently from traditional anti-depressants. As the brain chemistry gets out of whack sometimes it requires a combination of a couple of different drugs to work effectively [Victoria's brain is working just fine]. And I honestly believe that there is a spiritual purpose involved in working through depression. [well, is the depression a spiritual phenomenon or one preferably ameanable to artifical manipulation? You are contradicting yourself.] Just from my experience.

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If you didn't eat for four days and it was not some sort of spiritual fast, why didn't you eat, because you were depressed?

I'm not even going to bother with the horary, in my personal opinion a horary is not appropriate. Only you can decide if you want to voluntarily commit yourself to a hospital. As Dr. Farr pointed out it would be a good idea, but that's a given in my opinion, horary or not telling you it is so.

As you probably know, this place is not a place for medical advice. So I don't know if I can tell you you should go to the hospital or not. I'll just frame it as my personal opinion.

You've got Pluto in the 6th house, suggesting you've got control and power focused in your house of health, wellness, and daily routine. By not eating, you are exhibiting a kind of power and control over yourself, which is some how fulfilling on that Plutonian psychological level, since by default, as human being, you are going to want to eat.

If we move over the to house in Modern Astrology that Pluto is associated with, the 8th house, we find Chiron and Neptune. Neptune can indicate that you might be the kind of person who could do fasts for spiritual reasons, and maintain great control and discipline. With Chiron there, however, I cannot help but wonder if there is a "pleasure in the pain" scenario going on. Depression as you may know is buried anger, and it may be more pleasurable to bury this pain, this anger, thus obscuring it, than actually dealing with it out in the open. This would be a combination of Chiron and Neptune. You're also victimizing yourself by not eating, which I am sure is clear to you, but if not, now it is, since starving yourself without some sort of spiritual/ritual cleansing, or simply giving into the psychological pull not to eat, or simply not feeling like eating, is a victimization. Your body needs food. Period.

Since this is an issue with nourishment, looking at your Moon in the 12th, you may be inclined to deny or hide what it is you need to feel nourished, or look to the outer world, completely outside of you, for this nourishment. You gave that away when you said, "I feel better talking to all of you people." Of course you do, but that's not going to "fix this."

Putting this altogether (and my reading of your chart was incredibly light), I am going to say, IN MY OPINION (just wary of the rules), you should go to the hospital. Your therapist has perfect reason to be worried, talking with people here is not sustaining, and you need assistance to empower yourself properly to take care of yourself.

You really have no excuses, in my humble opinion. Get yourself well, take care of yourself, do the right thing, and in my humblest of statements, remember that this slow wasting away of yourself is selfish to those around you, and even more so, selfish to your own spirit that inhabits your body, and needs you to sustain it to thrive.

Bottom line is: you know what you need to do. I hope you'll take care of yourself; you have that power more so than ANYBODY else, and we all need a little (or a lot) of help from time to time, to do this.
 

Mandy

Well-known member
PersephonesDawn,

You have given Victoria a delineation of an horary chart as if it were a natal reading.
 

kimbermoon

Well-known member


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]not to discount your generosity on this thread, but you are not setting the record straight, you are talking about one person's experience.][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]erm, lol, how on earth can it be "inaccurate" to gather for oneself FACTUAL information regarding a drug entering the brain, no less, that could have disasterous and, YES, life-threatening consequences?]your belief is completely irrelevant in all this. From a patients perspective it really doesn't matter whether the drugs in question are categorised as 'traditional' or 'current' or 'so new they are not yet realsed'. what matters is how they work and the fact, whether you believe it, or not, is that doctors do not know how it works. If they did, and if they are good people, they would ensure that it works every time.] well, is the depression a spiritual phenomenon or one preferably ameanable to artifical manipulation? You are contradicting yourself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Contradiction is a way of getting people to remember that there can be two sides to every issue; and that conclusions are often based on incomplete or erroneous information. I contend that if I had no dangerous side-effects from the drug, that there are probably many others out there like me, so I think it is unfair to make a blanket statement that it will be harmful to everyone...and why is it still such a popular drug being prescribed for the condition if it is 'known' to be harmful? I guess that you think that personal experience is 'irrelevant' ...I think it is the more reliable source of information especially in talking about common issues shared by others...also what I meant about the connection of depression with spirituality is that once we have worked through the pain and dissassociation that depression brings, we MAY find in retrospect,as I did ,that what we have lost often opens the doorway to a greater re-connection with our inner divinity and that if we are aware enough we can see that 'the enemy' that comes from within can indeed be overcome and subdued; we can become victorious and all the stronger for it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Question: so why do you think that your opinions are more 'relevant' than mine? Are you depressed yourself? Are you a doctor? Are you a patient? What experience on the matter do you bring to the table, other than opinion? [/FONT]
 
PersephonesDawn,

You have given Victoria a delineation of an horary chart as if it were a natal reading.


Oh. Thanks for pointing that out. Well, it seems astoundingly appropriate regardless. So maybe a "horary" is appropriate, if only as a snapshot of what the person is doing and why, and what is impelling them to behave the way that they are. The chart says "go to the hospital," in my opinion. Moreover, the Moon in the natal is square Pluto, thus issues with control around nourishment: just a highlight of the theme I put out in my initial reading. Moon is in the 11th: thinking the group can nourish, again its still going outside of the self, Pluto in the third house (or I'd put it there), which again just goes back to issues with communication: person does not want to understand own feelings. Neptune rules 6th, squaring chart ruler: person avoids taking care of themselves and responsibilities, would rather do what feels good/gives into temptation. I guess if anything my reading of the natal would be a bit harsher. I don't intend to be it's just with that Chiron in Cancer at the top of the Chart, squaring again, the Chart ruler, the person has serious issues with self-worth, taking care of one's self, needs to work on that "Libra balance." I mean, I'll happily admit I interpreted the wrong chart, but strangely enough, my delineation wasn't that far off.
 

Mandy

Well-known member


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]not to discount your generosity on this thread, but you are not setting the record straight, you are talking about one person's experience.][/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]erm, lol, how on earth can it be "inaccurate" to gather for oneself FACTUAL information regarding a drug entering the brain, no less, that could have disasterous and, YES, life-threatening consequences?]your belief is completely irrelevant in all this. From a patients perspective it really doesn't matter whether the drugs in question are categorised as 'traditional' or 'current' or 'so new they are not yet realsed'. what matters is how they work and the fact, whether you believe it, or not, is that doctors do not know how it works. If they did, and if they are good people, they would ensure that it works every time.] well, is the depression a spiritual phenomenon or one preferably ameanable to artifical manipulation? You are contradicting yourself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Contradiction is a way of getting people to remember that there can be two sides to every issue; and that conclusions are often based on incomplete or erroneous information. I contend that if I had no dangerous side-effects from the drug, that there are probably many others out there like me, so I think it is unfair to make a blanket statement that it will be harmful to everyone...and why is it still such a popular drug being prescribed for the condition if it is 'known' to be harmful? I guess that you think that personal experience is 'irrelevant' ...I think it is the more reliable source of information especially in talking about common issues shared by others...also what I meant about the connection of depression with spirituality is that once we have worked through the pain and dissassociation that depression brings, we MAY find in retrospect,as I did ,that what we have lost often opens the doorway to a greater re-connection with our inner divinity and that if we are aware enough we can see that 'the enemy' that comes from within can indeed be overcome and subdued; we can become victorious and all the stronger for it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Question: so why do you think that your opinions are more 'relevant' than mine? Are you depressed yourself? Are you a doctor? Are you a patient? What experience on the matter do you bring to the table, other than opinion? [/FONT]

I really don't want to argue with you on a thread of a girl who could do with less hassle in her life, so if you must pursue this topic further, please keep your statements relevant to the OP question. Your use of a contradiction in this thread is irrelevant because the OP is aware that there are two sides to every concern which she has. For example, she is aware that she can fulfill something inside her by not eating, but she is also aware that her body needs food. Similarly, she is aware that anti-depressants can/do help some people. However I was concerned that she was possibly somewhat naive to the fact that, not only is this not the case for others, but that the usage of anti-depressants can actually make people worse, to the point I have mentioned above. To be clear, this is not an opinion, or a belief, this is, as I have clearly stated, a fact. I consider it highly relevant because it concerns the well-being of a vulnerable individual.

It is also true, of course, that many people experience no negative side effects when taking psychotropic drugs. This is also a fact, and therefore I would not deny it (when you find where I have said that anti-depressants are "harmful to everyone", please do show me). How anti-depressants work, on the other hand, which you claim to know, is at present not a fact, but instead your opinion. Even if you have gathered your information from the most sophisticated of literature, this claim is still unsupported, so, to keep it funky and in the present, I will not go into those reasons here.

Personal experience is very relevant, especially when talking about psychotropic drugs used on vulnerable individuals. Without the benefit of personal experience as feedback, how would we know the effects? We wouldn't. So, if you look you will see that I did not say personal experience is irrelevant. However, it does depend on what you are trying to use it for. If I say to you that me and my friends have taken ecstasy, or cannabis, for years and had no side effects from it, would you consider my personal opinion relevant in your choice of mood altering drug, insofar as that you would be inclined to follow my footsteps? I assume that you would not, because, in that case, my personal experience/opinion/belief, would bring to light counter-EVIDENCE, such as the population of people who have reacted negatively or sadly, lost their lives by taking these psychotropic drugs. See it? It is important to consider the facts when making a decision about psychotropic drugs.

Why do some people experience undesirable effects and some no undesirable effects? Effectively, this depends on many factors, but to name probably the most important one, it is, fundamentally because everybody's brain is different. Also, brain chemistry, which reacts with substances ingested that cross the blood-brain barrier, is largely dependent on nutrition. Whichever drug one takes, it will have a variable effect on a person who is deficient in important nutrients. And, so, in Victoria's case, this is an important consideration. Should Victoria experience undesirable side effect/s to this drug, in her malnutritioned, starved state, she will have less power to fight though the consequence of this, which your 'intensely informed' advice does not acknowledge. My one example does by no means exhaust this list of individual differences in brain chemistry and composition, or indeed the consequences of side-effects in this one example, however, again, thats what education is for.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you would probably leave your judgement of these topics to the reports written by the 'people who know', that is, doctors. A doctor is not always one's best friend. There is also a world of difference between doctors, all of whom are called 'doctors'. It is thorough my personal experience, but also formal education, that I have learned that it is always good to exercise one's own (informed) judgement, even if it goes against the prescription made by a doctor. Indeed, many doctors would give you the same advice.

If you would like to be of help to people, then I think adding this information to your list of 'intense research' would be a good idea. To reiterate, every brain is different. Your brain and/or your experience is not the same as Tom's, Dick's, or Harry's. For that reason, when trying to help someone (including yourself), it is good to approach that whole enterprise with an objective mind set, and not one borne out of deeply subjective, personal, emotional, experience. Indeed, this is what doctors and therapists try to do.

Out of all of the contradictions, I think it is particularly important to remind the OP of the fact that she does have a choice: Eat/not eat/drugs/not drugs/depression/no depression. There is always a choice, even if the cause is not yet apparent, she just needs to make it like she means it. Whatever Victoria decides, she will be the ONLY one reaping the consequences of her choices, which is why I felt it was important to contribute to this thread, in the way in which I have, with the information which I have, and, also, to make a statement about your input. If you are interested in where my knowledge comes from, or the validity of it, you can find that information in my initial post.
 
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