Ways to heal Chiron wounds

[Radu]

Hi people

As Mercury is now in trine with Chiron for quite some time, I thought it'd be a good time to ask about this topic: what do you do about the Chiron wounds, how do you go healing them, are there specific techniques, say directed prayers or meditations?

Thanks.

[flea]

Interesting Question,

Chiron wound needs to be indentified. Most people cover and hide the wound very well so they are not aware of it. My experience is that when you know the issue, and have an intennt to clear and heal it.....all done. The long road to finding that place that you dont want to touch is the hardest and needs the most compassion and security, to ensure your self entity does not splinter from hurt and realisation in the process therefore creating other wounds.

Mercury now trine would help the revelation I suppose, time to retreat and contemplate the cave of the mind.

To get to those places I use a kinesiologist and support from things like art and flower essences etc among other things as I feel I need them.

Love Light Flea

[EJ53]

Hi Radu,

Given the recentness of this planets introduction to astrology, I guess the best we can do on this at the moment is to "fly a few kites" and see where that takes us.

For me, Chiron seems to present individuals with the tasks of recognising, understanding and learning to live with/accept their own unique wound - which can never be healed completely. In general terms, each wound can be recognised by the Chiron sign and the house shows where it impacts most in life. But, that only points the individual in the direction of his/her search to discover the specific way(s) in which it affects/influences them - possibly shown in detail by other features of the birthchart. So the healing process is in the search for self-understanding (in relation to the wound) - and, through achieving the latter, we can become "Chiron healers" ourselves.

As such, this seems to be a planet that may de-skill astrology - making it relatively straightforward for the "uninitiated" to understand/work with the key psychological issue in their chart/personality. But, I'm drifting off-topic here.

EDIT

I agree with Flea's comment - posted whilst I was drafting mine.

Also, as I've pointed out in other threads, pluto has for some time now been dancing over a point that is semi-sextile/sextile the Forum Capriciorn chiron/Aquarius sun - providing opportunities for members to heal its inherent wound. So, for the benefit of anyone interested in doing that, chiron in Capricorn points to a deep-seated "fear of not being heard by those in authority" - which all members have to recognise in themselves/others and learn to live with/accept. (Preachy - but valid nevertheless.)

EJ:)

[Jeremy]

EJ is for me the top Chironologist on this board and has motivated me to look further into the Chrion topic. I have since read Melanie Reinhart's pioneering work on the asteroid and more recently Martin Lass' work on Chiron too. I now have a copy of Barbara Hand Clow's work on the subject also which is conisidered to be the best of the three (quite possibly - I'll let you know).

EJ's remark about Chiron 'de-skilling' astrology is right on the money by the way; it's a get out of jail free card during consultations for sure :) but I would qualify that by saying it doesn't seem to work until the client has experienced their half-return.

I have been developing my own feeling about the subject of Chiron over this time; and (for what it's worth) it seems to represent an opportunity. I say this because whilst it may well be true that we cannot heal the Chiron wound directly, I think we can transmute it by learning to heal others according to the quality of the Chiron placement. I am frequently counselling those with say Chiron in Taurus who may have body-image and food issues, to think about how they might counsel others with the same problems; this appears to be an extremely effective way of bringing the Chiron wound into the light because invariably they discover that they have real wisdom on the subject which they only become aware of when they are hypothesising about how they would counsel somebody with say, an eating disorder.

This leads me to suspect that the Chiron placement is almost a directive to "heal others or require healing yourself". Logical I think you'll agree considering this insight.

I found that after EJ opened my eyes objectively to the nature of my own Chiron placement that I have been able to really help others with a failing sense of the numinous and divine (Chiron in Pisces).

As for Chiron in Capricorn, one interpretation of that particular placement according to Lass is a wound of being igonored or not taken seriously; seems pretty apt for this forum wouldn't you say? :D

[flea]

Jeremy,

I like what you say about the capricorn interpretation, I can see the not being taken seriously can hurt big time. I wonder if we will be seeing any stories in the media regarding such wounds.

I am not sure what EJ means by deskilling astrology... is that where the client can really see their own wound and so can counsell themselves to a degree??

Would be cool to have a thread about chiron placements. I kind of think Pisces could also be about a sense of individuality that is lost, being more aware of and part of the continuum. I always had a faith in something bigger, just not able to identify that with human organisations. I was fine when I went my own path, yet still struggle with individuality and a sense of self?

Love Light Flea

[Jeremy]

My feeling is with Pisces that Chiron speaks to a loss of faith, this is usually exposed through issues with victimisation, in turn leading to a "why me?" moment which itself opens the pathway to healing through really exploring "actually, good question: why me?" We transform ourselves from being a random victim of blind happenstance into an integral part of a greater and transcendant scheme. Thus it defies logic, defies a breaking down type of understanding (as with the polarity of Virgo).

For you, there is something of that loss of faith connected with the parental axis, something to do with your father being the trigger for a spiritual crisis (maybe the mother of course, 10th/4th conundrum), possibly through being disinterested in you, possibly because he was more interested in his other children or too tied up with his career. Actually, both of these themes seem to be true. Possibly he had an extra-marital affair that was very upsetting for you and caused you to reassess your faith in the benefic nature of the Universe.

Possibly :) I hate trying to interpret things for other astrologers, because just by dint of being an astrologer, a person tends to be slightly more evolved than the run-of-the-mill type, but I am sure you understand that already.

[Radu]

As EJ said, I find the process of self-understanding my personal Chiron wound quite difficult. This is because I'm constantly using an approach based on other people's patterns of dealing with that topic. I haven't found my own yet.

This is why I was particularly inspired by Jeremy's comment:

I am frequently counselling [...] to think about how they might counsel others with the same problems; this appears to be an extremely effective way of bringing the Chiron wound into the light because invariably they discover that they have real wisdom on the subject which they only become aware of when they are hypothesising about how they would counsel somebody

A perfect meditation topic!

Off meditating...

http://www.sufimeditationcenter.com/images/meditating.jpg

[Julie]

I am not sure I will ever really get the meaning of my Chiron in Taurus/9th. Although with readings I have got from different forums. Everyone thinks I would do well being a teacher to young people. I can't even teach myself never mind the little one's :rolleyes: . Probably has a lot to do with my Venus/Jupiter 5th/11th axis, yet Chiron squares my Jupiter in 11th. I think there is a wound about a lot of things in life. Chiron is often a hard won wisdom.

In Anguish the centaur seeks to pull the arrow from his thigh. But all his instinctive skill and knowledge cannot take away the pain he suffers, nor heal the wound of it's corrosive poison. Yet despite the darkness which surrounds him, the light of the Sun illuminating with merciless clarity that implacable unfairness of life which constitutes the true nature of his hurt - can draw forth wisdom and compassion to render bearable that which cannot be changed. ~ Liz Greene.

[flea]

Jeremy,

I know what you mean..... insights from others always help you see things from different persepctives. I am very aware of my child wounds, done heaps of family focused healing/investigation. I yes there was a huge division between me and both my parents that has closed over the last few years. I suppose astrology illustrates the gulf... they dont get it, ridicule it even or show a fear. So the lack of interest derives in part from me having different aims ideas thoughts etc that are naturally not received by them. As a child that is a hugely defeating experience just as you are starting to form your own just formed gooey perceptions of life yourself.

So mypotential gift of chiron maybe an understanding the imperceptible wounds a child experiences so deeply yet is of no concern to the parents because it is beyond their ken is some way. A child does not need to hear right or wrong, just listened to, and attended to, as the self learns in its own sweet way. It was neither strong father or mother incident, just lots of little things... and it was the littleness of the things that was significant, and deep. Career and affairs would be the obvious ones, but neither touched me, I suppose it was the ordinariness of events that made them so wounding.....

So that brings me back to the wounding of self..... At the same time I was designed to be perceptive to these occurances, other people it may not have touched at all....

Love Light Flea

[tsquare]

I don't know if it's better to dig for this bugger in a chart, or through simply working with recalls of ones past, starting there instead....
If one uses the chart I have had the theory that mabie the first chiron oppositon may show some insight into the first this life moment of the deep wound that may repeat itself as it roles along the chart, showing up specifically in squares, mabie easy times durring trines.
Mabie by checking out that specific aspect, then by a loose form of date and locate through concious recall....
There is also the problem of this being a deep wound, so I imagine layers of dub in...inactual copies of the asctual incident..it is hard to get accurate copies of traumas.....at least at a first pass and it can be vey painfull....
But I would say confronting the first moment of the wound would either cool this wound off or handle it for eternity.......yet is one ready for that?
THe mind tends to block out that which one can't handle, as a form of protection, yet sometimes it does too good a job.

The thing that bothers me about chiron is that, NOBODY, can help others in an area that they canot help themselves in....it is a bit like learning from a failure...what good does it do? THere is the old saying, those that teach can't do...that isn't always true, yet it seems the true experts would rather be doing then teaching unless they feel a real need to spread information and knowledge for the pure sake of the subject matter, to make a difference....


It seems to be similar to an unconfronted personal aspect of life, in which one seeks to escape the wound and having experienced it, while extroverting it on those that have a similar, even if they may have similar, "saving" them from the trouble that "they" have had, when it is really the trouble one has had theirself.
With chiron it seems that helping others is an escape from dealing with personal issues, that were painfull enough to throw one out of ones own identity and path......


Trouble is, the word heal, it means finished, done, for eternity, cleared up....not a cover up of symptoms........We can save the world or others from things that have happened to us in the past, a survivng victim may make it their duty to save other to be victims, yet do they ever get over the wounding incident and live their lives again, without that sense of duty...? It is in a way selfish, and caused by not healing ones own wound, because it is, "unhealable"...and if so it may be very very deep wound..
Can we really learn to help ourselves, in a specific area, by first helping others, in that area, which we canot actually do very well ourselves?
Or is this simply the cause of a trama?

The above is speculation of course......and I feel a bit off of it....
Tsquare

[Nexus7]

I am stilkl trying to get a sense for Chiron too, here were endless arguments on one forum I know where it was questioned whether or not it really was as much about self-wounding as has so far been claimed. It was suggested that it was more to do with where we sabotage ourselves.

It made its second and last pass to my Moon recently and not I have had the Chiron return. Good okld Liz Greene linka it to the change of life, and I hope, not just yet, anyway, it has fallen a couple of years shy of the prescribed one and fifty.

Maybe my Chironic placement does insure against follow any particualr party line 100%. That is what occurs me now, there were expereinces that look place that certainly did, well, reopne old wounds from the point of view of getting caught up in internet politics, elsewhere.

[flea]

I think of chiron as interactive and fluid.... You work with your stuff.... or you do in my case.....experiencing self good and bad, this time and not... etc etc etc. It is not prescriptive... so as always the 100% party line obscures the details and only focuses on a particular result. It is a boundless story that we unfound ourselves, and chiron and its pattern in the chart can only guide what we are open to and ready to deal with.

Love Light Flea

[EJ53]

I wonder if we will be seeing any stories in the media regarding such wounds.

Here in the UK, Hauliers blocked motorways last week with a mass "slow drive" to London to protest (yet again) that the government is refusing to take seriously their complaints about rising fuel prices threatening to bankrupt their businesses.

I am not sure what EJ means by deskilling astrology... is that where the client can really see their own wound and so can counsell themselves to a degree?

Chiron is said to be a "bridge between Saturn/Uranus/Jupiter" because of it's orbit path - but a bridge to what? I'm speculating that (using the grounded/earthed wisdom of jupiter) Chiron will bridge the restricted (saturn) view of astrology (uranus) - making it available to the masses (uranus) rather than the indoctrinated (saturn).

As an example, it took me over 15 years to learn from my chart that the source of my problems in life is a "deep-seated fear of being manipulated by others" - only to find out about six months ago that this accurately describes my Chiron placement in Scorpio/3rd house. Had I read that (and been ready to face it) 15 years ago, the underlying detailed astrological problems in my chart would have become clear to me almost immediately - because they are merely symptoms/effects of that one underlying cause.

Would be cool to have a thread about chiron placements.
It would.

I kind of think Pisces could also be about a sense of individuality that is lost, being more aware of and part of the continuum. I always had a faith in something bigger, just not able to identify that with human organisations. I was fine when I went my own path, yet still struggle with individuality and a sense of self?

This is why I think Chiron is about "individuals" working on their own unique wounds. Generally, Chiron in Pisces can be about anything associated with that sign - victimisation, fear of being hurt, loss of faith, etc. So, only the individual can know what it means for them specifically - but, astrologically, they now have fewer places to look for the root cause of their problems. And, my guess is that people will soon be discussing their respective "chiron wound" signs as readily as they now do with "sun signs".

Speculating rather than campaigning for padded walls at home.

EJ:)

[tsquare]

If you want to teach someone a subject you do not know yourself, let him measure the length of some object unknown to you, and he will learn the measure you did not know before.- Leonardo Da iVinci

[blueheron]

As EJ said, I find the process of self-understanding my personal Chiron wound quite difficult. This is because I'm constantly using an approach based on other people's patterns of dealing with that topic. I haven't found my own yet.

This is why I was particularly inspired by Jeremy's comment:



A perfect meditation topic!

Off meditating...

http://www.sufimeditationcenter.com/images/meditating.jpg




My chiron is conjunct my Jupiter in Libra (1st house.) And my relationship problems have only strengthened me. Each one seemed karmic, and though the romantic tragedy thing did occur, in some Right Action uncanny way, each one greatly illumined me further on my path.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm87/Pamelia_and_Stormi_SongBird/candles/serenitycandleprayer.gif

[EJ53]

As for Chiron in Capricorn, one interpretation of that particular placement according to Lass is a wound of being igonored or not taken seriously

Jeremy
I'm using Lass too and suspect the semantics here may be important. He seems to invariably refer to chiron wounds as creating feelings/fears. So, the wound quoted above is one of "feeling ignored or not taken seriously."

This seems pedantic, but my view is that all psychological/chiron wounds stem not from what happens to us but from how we felt at the time or fear will happen in the future. For example, as Flea states, what "wounded" her might have gone unnoticed by a less sensitive child. So, the key to "healing" is confronting our "feelings and fears". How they originated might not even need to be addressed, thereby enabling us to avoid re-opening wounds/memories that we might never be ready to face.


I am not sure I will ever really get the meaning of my Chiron in Taurus/9th...... Probably has a lot to do with my Venus/Jupiter 5th/11th axis, yet Chiron squares my Jupiter in 11th.

Julie

You probably know this already but my view is :-

According to Lass, Chiron in Taurus/9th creates feelings of insecurity that affect how you conduct your 9th house affairs. But only you will ever know what that means (assuming you tell no-one) - because it cannot be ascertained from the chart alone (as others have pointed out).

The Venus/Jupiter/Chiron T-Square will reveal how the wound is affecting you, but not what it is. You can resolve the problems of Venus/Jupiter by changing the "undesirable" behaviour patterns - but, the Chiron wound can only be eased by confronting the hidden feelings/fears/insecurities which are the cause of those patterns.

EJ:)

[EJ53]

..... insights from others always help you see things from different persepctives...so mypotential gift of chiron maybe an understanding the imperceptible wounds a child experiences so deeply yet is of no concern to the parents because it is beyond their ken is some way.....

Flea
Maybe your chiron gift is to provide the insights that help others to see things differently? Learning to do so without self-consciousness then becomes the purpose of the childhood trauma; constantly having those insights explains the pluto/uranus focus (and chiron tail) in your natal chart and relating to a wide spectum of people/others clarifies why (natally) seven of your planets contact chiron. My guess is that not confronting the chiron wound was never an option for you - it's a "calling".

And who knows what happens when progressed/transitting planets pass through 17-21 degrees of Taurus - setting off the incomplete natal hexagon formed by chiron/mars/neptune/uranus+pluto/moon?

EJ:)

[Jeremy]

This seems pedantic, but my view is that all psychological/chiron wounds stem not from what happens to us but from how we felt at the time or fear will happen in the future.

Have no fear: Ur/Pl rising in Virgo; I have no fear of pedanticism :) Actually this is the great marvel of the subjectivity/objectivity paradigm of astrology and illustrates it very well.

Now speaking of Lass; I found the book to be very difficult reading; I am considered to be reasonably clever (despite my Neptune in the 3rd - I learn by absorption) but I had to really muster my focus to make sense of it. I think it was the style, rather than the content (what is that? style under content?) I also read Melanie Reinhart and found that to be (often) plain wrong. It was early for the subject though, but I really felt that she was just trying to underwrite her own erudition. Now I am onto Babara Hand-Clow and I am finding it so much easier going. I must recommend it.

I am working with a very interesting case just now of a Sa/Ch square, actually Sa is t-squared in Leo/6th from a Ur/Ch opposition. This suggests a big problem with the father which is borne out by Sun conjunct Venus. Isn't it the case that this is often found in parent-child relationships where the father turns into a big disappointment? I have seen it a few times. I have asked my client about this and she is composing her thoughts as I write this - so you can read something into that for sure :eek:

The only other Sun aspect is a tight square to Pluto which crossed natal Moon by solar arc at age 23. I am intrigued to hear the story but the point for me is the configuration of Saturn with Chiron, which indicates wounds incurred from the father, but evidently with Chiron it is just about as subjective as it gets, as you say.

I am rambling :) but I do have a point in here somewhere. Hand Clow talks about Chiron representing the alchemical transmutation of Saturn to Uranus (base metal to gold, suffering to emancipation, rigidity to freedom and so forth) and actually it is fascinating to me how important Chiron is suddenly becoming. Buzz-phrases like "paradigm-shift" are making their way into language with bizarre frequency, but it all started when I was studying Java programming at college 15 years ago and my lecturer's couldn't go a single lecture without mentioning the paradigm shift between procedural and object-oriented languages. Now paradigm shifts are everywhere and nowhere more so than in the internal debate raging in us all about the transmutation of base metal into gold (or money into true wealth, materialism to spiritualism, whatever). This is the vibration of Chirotic energy in the world surely?

I am going to digress just a second because this for me has an application to the argument between traditionalists and moderns in astrology: namely that the evolvement of consciousness shrugs off the limitations of static rulerships; we have known that Uranian forces are at work but we call them generational because it takes an improbable leap to straddle the alchemical divide, it is too far to go, so traditional rulerships are enough, but then along comes Chiron and we can bridge the gap and personalise Uranus at last.

I am growing dissatisfied with some dogma regarding Chiron; not least because it is such a new study and even the experts seem confused quite often. If Chirotic energy is so new then it is a new skill to work with it for sure, who is to say that utterly untypical responses are not possible? I am not convinced that we cannot heal Chirotic wounds, maybe it is tied up in the concept of healing because we can always heal more.

I would liken this to my understanding of solar force in the nativity: if you are a Scorpio, you can never be powerful or controlled enough. If you are Leo you cannot ever be powerful and magnanimous enough, even if you are King Arthur, you could still improve you will think, in your kingly majesty.

I think the key message of Chiron is "heal or require healing." This presents us with a stark choice to either become a healer or become ill. Actually Chiron himself did heal, by the selfless act of sacrificing his greatest gift to ease the suffering of Prometheus. Actually even this is slightly misleading because it was not actually selfless; he was miserable living in pain this way.

So we all are. We are miserable living our selfish, grasping lives, and then we make a paradigm shift and by giving up our time and energy to the objective of healing others (without thought of material reward), we realise the great leap in consciousness that bridges the yawing chasm between Saturn and Uranus (and maybe beyond).

That's my view, but I am still working on it :)

[EJ53]

Tsquare

I don't know if it's better to dig for this bugger in a chart, or through simply working with recalls of ones past, starting there instead....

I like this very apt spelling of chiron - and agree that "healing" the wound requires recall/confrontation of the past. But, I have a feeling that "easing" the wound might be enough - by accepting/addressing its effects in the present rather than its cause(s) in the past. Maybe this is a wound that we shouldn't even try to heal - maybe the message is "you are who you are - so, live with it".

If one uses the chart I have had the theory that mabie the first chiron oppositon may show some insight into the first this life moment of the deep wound that may repeat itself as it roles along the chart, showing up specifically in squares, mabie easy times durring trines.
Mabie by checking out that specific aspect, then by a loose form of date and locate through concious recall....

You've really hit on something with this! As suggested, I checked on my chiron half-return, and the memory bank reminded me instantly that this was the most soul-searching time of my life :-

According to Martin Lass, my Scorpio/3rd chiron wound creates a "feeling that the world is against us, that others seek to bring us down, that others may be plotting against us, and/or that others manipulate us and/or undermine us". And at the chiron return, I was threatening to become a "whistle-blower" unless a UK professional body changed the first/most important rule in their Code of Ethics. Anyone who is/has been a member of such an institution will understand just how isolated/manipulated/undermined that made me feel at the time - but, suffice to say, pray it never happens to you or anyone you care about. (The rule was changed but, in the circumstances, I could no longer remain in that profession - so "well done you then" said my wife/children.)


There is also the problem of this being a deep wound....it can be vey painfull....But I would say confronting the first moment of the wound would either cool this wound off or handle it for eternity.......yet is one ready for that?

My wound stems from being manipulated by my mother from as far back as I can remember...........I was able to confront it only after her death, when I was 45 years old.........and it still hurts now, at the age of 60.

....it is a bit like learning from a failure...what good does it do?

There is a rare breed that learns from the mistakes of others......and I've been an excellent source of material for some of them.

But, you're referring here to those who fail to confront rather than those who make mistakes whilst doing so..........so perhaps the lesson there is that we should confront.

It seems to be similar to an unconfronted personal aspect of life, in which one seeks to escape the wound and having experienced it, while extroverting it on those that have a similar, even if they may have similar, "saving" them from the trouble that "they" have had, when it is really the trouble one has had theirself.
With chiron it seems that helping others is an escape from dealing with personal issues, that were painfull enough to throw one out of ones own identity and path......

Every chiron wound seems to be unique/personal and probably has to be confronted "alone" - perhaps eventually removing entirely the role of third party support mechanisms, such as astrologers and psychologists.

Trouble is, the word heal, it means finished, done, for eternity, cleared up....not a cover up of symptoms........

I have a problem with this too - it's the wrong word (and therefore may be sending us in the wrong direction). In mythology, the pain of chiron's wound stopped only when he died/gave up his immortality - until then, he showed people that it is possible to be in great pain ourselves yet be concerned only with helping others. So, is Chiron about healing or about helping/easing the pain of others without any thought for ourselves?

The above is speculation of course

And it may be some time before we can do anything other than that.

EJ:)

[smilingsteph]

Chiron wounds,
Hell it has been awful. I have become so verbally nasty, I am telling people off left and right- only to feel really good about giving it to them. I then feel badly after the incident and apologize, I feel better afterwards, but I know it is unhealthy.
Chiron is opposing my mars too, I have been short tempered lately and I have been releasing this energy by running, working out and remembering to take my time.

[blueheron]

Well you people finally have me looking at chiron. I guess that dates me.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/whew.gif

It seems like everyone is snap, crackling, and popping these days. I'm wondering if this might have something to do with chiron's conjunction with Neptune in Aquarius.

Maybe the collective mind is Aquarianizing? Rebelling? Craving humanitarianism? Ovewhelmed with electronic tech? Spiritually yearning for equality? Demanding respect for human rights, and individuality? Paradigm shifting?


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/astrosigns/aquarius-3-1.jpg


Hmmmmm..........

[EJ53]

Nexus7

.....It was suggested that it was more to do with where we sabotage ourselves.

This has been the result of my "chiron wound driven" actions, appearing in every house area but always relating to inappropriate communicating by me. So, I'd say how we sabotage ourselves rather than where - but the suggestion seems valid to me.

....Maybe my Chironic placement does insure against follow any particualr party line 100%.

This is an astute observation, but I suspect it may turn out to be a characteristic of the planet itself rather than it's placement. Maybe that's why (everytime I/others consider the meaning/role of chiron) I find myself questioning the currently accepted texts/expert opinions on astrology generally.

Flea

....chiron and its pattern in the chart can only guide what we are open to and ready to deal with.

Agree fully. And, when we are open/ready, I suspect chiron will guide without the need for input from experts/professionals/etc. "When the student is ready, the master/chiron will appear" - delivering a message that only the specific individual concerned can hear/understand.

Tsquare

Having computer probs, overheating.

I think you may have picked up a virus at the site protesting about Tibet.

Jeremy

...Lass.......Reinhart......Hand-Clow

I'm finding that timing is the key to acquiring the best publications on most astrology topics - the latest incorporates all that has proved valid in previous publications; generally adds something and often is much clearer. Or am I just being cynical here?

In reality though, my guess is that you are learning more about Chiron through your client consultations than you ever will from books.



....this for me has an application to the argument between traditionalists and moderns in astrology....

I'm hoping the traditionalists don't know where you live.:D

Maybe the orbit is symbolic too - bridging Jupiter/traditional/pisces and Uranus/modern/aquarius and Saturn/traditional+modern/capricorn. So, I'm thinking in terms of Astrological Ages :-

"give someone a fish and feed one for a day" (pisces) - "teach someone to fish and feed one for life" (aquarius) - "organise the fishermen into an efficient unit and feed everyone for life" (capricorn).

For me, the key (I'm using that chiron word a lot these days) is that chiron merely "acknowledges" Jupiter/traditional but strongly embraces Saturn/traditional+modern on it's way to Uranus/modern - and Capricorn (not Aquarius) is the more advanced Age. So, both traditionalists and modern seem to have a definite place in the "chiron plan".


I am growing dissatisfied with some dogma regarding Chiron...

I feel the same way about astrology generally. For me, questioning the dogma seems to be a chiron trait.


I am not convinced that we cannot heal Chirotic wounds, maybe it is tied up in the concept of healing because we can always heal more

At present, my view is that the wound cannot be healed. In my own case, I can live with the wound and removing/healing it would destroy some of my fondest memories of my mother. Maybe it could be done - but I would not be the same person afterwards (the chiron death?), and not neccessarily a better one either.

Smilingsteph

This all seems very healthy to me - apart from the nastiness. Justifeid anger should always be expressed - otherwise how do people know they have offended you and decide whether or not they need to change anything? The problem is that we are conditioned to see anger as negative - even when used assertively and with constructive intentions.

Blueheron

......I guess that dates me.

You "outed" yourself on another thread (to-day is my birthday) - confessing to being even older than me! Maybe the fact that we've completed a chiron cycle will prove particularly helpful on this thread though.


EJ:)

[smilingsteph]

Thanks EJ!!!
I feel a million times better releasing anger, pain and hatred through an activity that releases that physically rather than verbally,
My thought:
What do you do when you are hurt?
Write, yell, sing, paint, organize????
Well do that then!
I tend to yell, so this is not conducive to being around people, so I displace my anger through sports....

[EJ53]

Thanks EJ!!!
I feel a million times better releasing anger, pain and hatred through an activity that releases that physically rather than verbally,
My thought:
What do you do when you are hurt?
Write, yell, sing, paint, organize????
Well do that then!
I tend to yell, so this is not conducive to being around people, so I displace my anger through sports....

Hi Smilingsteph,

We may be thinking slightly differently here. To me, releasing anger = letting go of the emotion - whilst expressing anger = stating how you feel (and why) to those who made you angry. We owe it to ourselves to release anger - and we owe it to others to express it (assertively).

With regard to releasing anger then, your thought seems excellent to me. But should we express it assertively; express it aggressively or not express it at all?

EJ:)

[blueheron]

With regard to releasing anger then, your thought seems excellent to me. But should we express it assertively; express it aggressively or not express it at all?


Decode the anger, and find the sorrow behind it. Then you can cry it off.

[EJ53]

Decode the anger, and find the sorrow behind it. Then you can cry it off.

Hi Blueheron,

Again, this is excellent advice for releasing the emotions.

But should we (unemotionally, objectively and constructively) express our anger to those who (unintentionally) caused it or not?

EJ :)

[blueheron]

Hi Blueheron,

Again, this is excellent advice for releasing the emotions.

But should we (unemotionally, objectively and constructively) express our anger to those who (unintentionally) caused it or not?

EJ :)

I don't know. I try to not do this because I think it's rather like pouring gasoline on a fire. If I can get my anger decoded, there's some hurt festering deep within it. I've found that I can handle the pain of grieving much better than the pain of rage (but then my mars is in Libra.)

However, sometimes there doesn't seem to be any other option but to roar.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/astrosigns/c06b432bed5af02713e21ffd6c017259-1.jpg

[EJ53]

I don't know. I try to not do this because I think it's rather like pouring gasoline on a fire. If I can get my anger decoded, there's some hurt festering deep within it. I've found that I can handle the pain of grieving much better than the pain of rage (but then my mars is in Libra.)

However, sometimes there doesn't seem to be any other option but to roar.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/astrosigns/c06b432bed5af02713e21ffd6c017259-1.jpg

Good/enlightening answer Blueheron - and superbly expressed. For me, it evokes the image of the lion roaring without malice; to avoid being aggressive and to inform others that they may have a problem - as I believe we should aim to do when/by expressing our anger.

Thanks:sunny:

[starlink]

Hi everyone, I am late coming to this thread, was one week totally occupied with family matters:
I like what Liz Green has written on the topic Chiron
In Anguish the centaur seeks to pull the arrow from his thigh. But all his instinctive skill and knowledge cannot take away the pain he suffers, nor heal the wound of it's corrosive poison. Yet despite the darkness which surrounds him, the light of the Sun illuminating with merciless clarity that implacable unfairness of life which constitutes the true nature of his hurt - can draw forth wisdom and compassion to render bearable that which cannot be changed. ~ Liz Greene.

This is exactly how I see it as well. I dont think we can ever heal our wounds. Easy or difficult aspects to Chiron might show how easy or how difficult it is for us to help others with the same problems or how much effort (squares, conjunctions,) we are putting into "healing" others with similar wounds. Trines could show less effort put into these things. I dont know, just guessing, but really healing yourself, I dont think so. We can learn to live with it, accept it, but never get rid of it.

In my experience, whereever Chiron is found in the chart, we find the most sensitive and difficult area of our life. In the 9th, like Julie's Chiron, I have had seen several times a great disappointment in oneself, even shame, to not having been able to get a degree (university) in some subject, and especially the first time the person failed, it puts a stamp on his or her self-esteem. This "failure" goes like a red tape through their lives and influences lots of decisions and often the person decides to really start developing that area to compensate for the "wound", like doing all sorts of studies where he/she does succeed and indeed often they then also want to teach others what they have learned.
Probably the "wound" feels like that because of the reaction that person got from others at the time and which made for such a negative impression or a feeling of shame.

Chiron in the 3rd might show a lack of lower education or "only" having a basic school education which for some seems to be too little whilst for others it is OK.

In talking to clients I think we just have to make a suggestion, we have to ask them and see what the answer is. It could also be (in the 9th) a feeling of not beeing all-round, not having enough general knowledge or cultural knowledge, whatever, or it could have to do with religion (which is condemmed by others) for instance.

Cheers, Starlink

[EJ53]

I am late coming to this thread.....

Hi Starlink,

I was wondering why you'd not commented on this thread - but now that you have, it was worth the wait.

....really healing yourself, I dont think so. We can learn to live with it, accept it, but never get rid of it...........(it's) the most sensitive and difficult area of our life.......goes like a red tape through (the life) and influences lots of decisions and often the person decides to really start developing that area to compensate for the "wound" ......

I agree completely with this. For me, the wound is so much a part of "who I now am" that I'd choose to live with it rather than have it healed and risk the possibility of becoming a "different person" that I might not even like.

In talking to clients I think we just have to make a suggestion, we have to ask them and see what the answer is.

This might prove to be the most important chiron lesson for astrologers. Maybe it's all we ever should do/have done anyway.

EJ:)

[Julie]

Thank you Ej and Starlink on your interpretations of my Chiron in 9th, I think you are both right (I won't go into details it's too painful :p ) I do genuinely think where Chiron is placed is a painful place to be, I think it is too hard for me to really analyse what it means. I do think I could have done more with my life, maybe intellectually but my confidence has always been very low. I also do try to compensate for it and will study a lot on different subjects, my bookshelf is getting crammed. Disappointments and bitterness are in the 9th house and my self worth probably does feel wounded.

Thank you both, I am a bit late getting back to the thread as I have been busy, it doesn't mean I haven't read the interpretations. I always appreciate it ;) .

[autumnleaf]

What a great thread on Chiron! Many thanks to you all for showing there's more than one way to look at our personal placements and aspects. Especially where Chiron is concerned since we all have wounds to heal.

[starlink]

I decided to also have a look at the midpoints of Chiron to other planets, especially Sun, Moon, Pluto,Mars (both Asc. rulers) and Venus (Sun ruler).

Natally I have Chiron in the 12th house (probably quite similar to Chiron in Pisces), in Scorpio at 4°, so that pain is really deeply hidden and the three aspects it makes are a square to Saturn (yes, being ignored is a possibility. In my case I think some hurt done by the father as well). Saturn also is ruler of my 3rd. , An inconjunct to the North Node at 2° Gemini in 7th and an opposition to Mercury in the 6th.
I have , through own experience) noticed that indeed the 3rd house, elementary school experiences, have been very painful for me. So Saturn does not only show lessons, limitations and difficulties to overcome, but the house it rules becomes very important in the Chiron experiences. I had a very difficult time in school, pestered by the other children and yes, ignored as well, AND also a female (Indonesian)teacher who always made fun of me in front of the whole classroom. I will never forget that.

Mercury rules my 11th, friends. Chiron's opposition shows few friends out of fear to be hurt I guess. I am and always have been very self reliant because of that and yes, lost faith in (the goodness?) of others (inconjunct NN in 7) and the 8th, life and death situations, transformation and facing crisis and support from others. Especially this last one. I never ask. I rather do everything alone than ask for help. Chiron experiences helped (what am I saying? forced me to transform myself.

Still, there is a lot of 12th house stuff I have not yet been able to un-dig really. I know it is there, but have no idea how to get at it, unless I let myself being hypnotised and I am afraid of that to be true. I really am afraid what would come up (square to Saturn again) and rather not know.

Back to the midpoints. One immediately caught my eye, the Chiron //Sun falls at 9° Leo in my chart and what is going to happen in August on 9° Leo? Yessurree, the total Solar Eclipse!!! I will keep a good eye on this one and will let you guys know what life throws at me then (IF it does of course).

Would midpoints between Chiron and other planets be of interest you think?

Must run, cheers, Starlink

[EJ53]

Julie/Autumnleaf/All

I'd also like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, which enabled me to work through what (I hope) might be the final stages of confronting/learning to live with my own Chiron wound.

Having done so, I agree with Jeremy that the wound might not be confrontable (or even apparent) before the first Saturn Return - which may explain why the input here seems to be from those who have. Certainly, my conscious confrontation did not begin until February 2008 (shortly after joining this forum) - and my astrological awareness of Chiron only began some 3 months earlier, around the time of my 59th birthday. So, I shall not be pointing fingers at anyone under 60 who chooses not to confront this planet - aptly described by Tsquare as a "little bugger".

However, for those who decide to do so in the future, I can now add the following about how the Chiron cycle appears to have worked in my life :-

1. Born with Chiron in Scorpio/3rd - "deep-seated scorpio fear of being manipulated, affecting how I communicate (3rd house).

2. First Chiron square at age 12 - death of grandmother who (with chiron hindsight) was the only "figure of authority" that never attempted to manipulate me. Also, first term in Seconday Education - when (with chiron hindsight) the main objective was to make me conform (by manipulation).

3. Chiron opposition at 35 - A time of considerable pressure by "my society" to make me conform (by manipulation), referred to elsewhere on this thread.

4. Second Chiron square at 45 - Throughout the six months prior to her death through cancer, I became aware for the first time of how my mother was manipulating me (and had always done so).

5. Chiron Return at 50 - although I did not realise why until now, this was when I began to reflect upon how my resistance to "being manipulated" by others had affected my life. (Note how that made me feel I'd displayed courage by resisting - rather than fear of something that might not actually have been happening.)

6. Currently at 59 and six months - Chiron has been setting off a tight Pluto/Mercury square in my chart. (With Chiron hindsight), that square explains the pride I have always had in being mentally strong enough to resist manipulation by others. And that pride has been the source of the "self-sabotage" to which Nexus7 refers in this thread.

Finally, I hope this helps others to confront their own Chiron wound despite the pain of doing so - because, I can confirm from experience that it is probably the underlying/hidden cause of the problems that we are consciously aware of. As Jeremy says, the Chiron message is "heal or become ill" - but it's also reminding us of the law of "cause and effect".

EJ:cheers:

[EJ53]

Would midpoints between Chiron and other planets be of interest you think?

Yes - and I'm gonna ask the Mods to post you as AWOL next time you go "missing" from this forum.:D

EJ:)

[starlink]

Oh great EJ53!, I mean, looking at all those important Chiron hits. I will have a look at mine also and let you know (if I remember, because I seem to be good at covering up bad memories).

I'm gonna ask the Mods to post you as AWOL next time you go "missing" from this forum.:D


Oh, that is sooo considerate of you:)! I will announce all my vacations to avoid panic stations, ha ha!!!

Ciao! Star.

[smilingsteph]

Chiron's lessons:
to teach
to unlock
to find what is essential
to reconcile opposites (shaman)
to heal holistically
They say they are similar to Saturns lessons, if so, how? Any input?
Can we apply the same understanding to Chiron as Saturn?
I think I am getting the two mixed up as one of the same...

[Nexus7]

Having just had a Chiron return after transit Chiron conjunct Moon after Neptune made similar transits, it certainly does seem to me that Chiron is not Neptune. The Neptune transit could be cathartic, inspiring (though not all Neptune transits are not like that, they can also seem to engender a sense of loss and disappointment in ways that felt pretty pointless at the time with other transits), but the Chiron transits just seemed painful without anything cathartic going on whatsoever. And if there is anythng to this wounding idea, it, for me at least, still seems to me to be linked with all kinds of group politics, the wounding happening where the hidden dynamics are least understood, that is all. In that respect, 3rd-House placements for me at least, do make sense: school. Still, I've no doubt lots of people have woundings here, apparently most people, when asked to describe a school memory, go on to describe something unpleasant, even traumatic. In other words, you don't need to have any Chiron placement in the 3rd to necessary be totally unwounded by school expereinces at a tender age.

But then again, Rob Hand declares that 'school is Saturnine.' So there is one possible Saturn comparison.

[EJ53]

Smilingsteph

.....Can we apply the same understanding to Chiron as Saturn?...

Based solely upon my own experience of Chiron, I'd speculate that :-

Saturn encourages us to "know what we need to know"
Chiron encourages us to accept that "we know what we need to know"

For example, It takes me a long time to interpret and synthesise the individual components in a chart (Saturn) - yet I can "see" the result in minutes by looking at the chart (Uranus). However, having not yet "accepted" my ability to do the latter (Chiron) - I still confirm "what I know" by interpreting and synthesising the individual components. So, Chiron is the bridge between my grounded saturn knowledge of astrology and the uranus knowledge that comes from who knows where.

Nexus7

And if there is anythng to this wounding idea, it, for me at least, still seems to me to be linked with all kinds of group politics, the wounding happening where the hidden dynamics are least understood, that is all.

This makes sense to me, as the wound does always seem to the individual to have been inflicted by others. And the hidden dynamics might be stated as :-

Psychological wounds come not from what happens to us, but from how the event(s) made us feel at the time.

EJ:)

[starlink]

In that respect, 3rd-House placements for me at least, do make sense:
school. Still, I've no doubt lots of people have woundings here, apparently most people, when asked to describe a school memory, go on to describe something unpleasant, even traumatic. In other words, you don't need to have any Chiron placement in the 3rd to necessary be totally unwounded by school expereinces at a tender age
.
Hi Nexus, yes, you are right of course. School is never really a party!
I am talking about more extreme happenings. In my case it was really very abusive and not the normal bullying which always happens in school.
The fact that I can remember each instant says it all. I dont remember other things at that time so well.

EJ, I have now a case with a Chiron in the 8th in Pisces, conjunct Saturn (imagine) and opposed to a Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd. And a Sun square Mars. Sun rules Ascendant, in the 5th in Capricorn.Chart of a woman. Transiting Uranus is exactly conjunct her Chiron now! OOPS!!
Trans. Saturn cnj. her Ascendant .

I find 8th house positions always hard to explain to the client, I can feel it but have difficulty putting it into words that they understand and more important, willing to accept.

In my opinion this is a big time father issue, feeling a great loss of support from others as well (husband, financial). He has the title, she the money.
Uranus rules the 7th house.

Hope all goes well, I see her at 14.30 today. Also have to do her son's chart, so it is going to be a heavy session. transiting Moon will be going over my Uranus in Gemini, quite appropriate and entering my 8th house .

Cheers, Star.

[Jeremy]

Star, for what it is worth ;) my brother-in-law has the exact same configuration (sa/ch opp. ur/pl) so I am very familiar with it. His father (and my wife's father too of course) committed suicide when he was 16. His SA NN was square radix Sa/Ch at this time, so what can you say of that? Destiny?

There is no question that the wound and the father here are the same and they provoke some very uncomfortable control issues later on in life, with the 2nd/8th axis it is all about possession, about holding on vs. letting go, about gluttony vs. starvation, about more is more vs. less is more and about Sparta! Haha, I love the 2nd/8th axis, it rules my life :) :(

I can let you have an interp I wrote on this setup if you are at all interested. Only trying to help of course, not that you really need though :)

J

[EJ53]

EJ, I have now a case with a Chiron in the 8th in Pisces, conjunct Saturn (imagine) and opposed to a Pluto/Uranus conjunction in the 2nd. And a Sun square Mars. Sun rules Ascendant, in the 5th in Capricorn.Chart of a woman. Transiting Uranus is exactly conjunct her Chiron now! OOPS!!
Trans. Saturn cnj. her Ascendant.

Hi Starlink,

This sounds very much like Flea's chart to me. So, looking again at her comments/responses to them here might be helpful to you.

Basically though, I'd opt for childhood problems with your client's father making her feel uncomfortable about being different/her individuality (pluto/uranus). But, if she's got over that, she might now be a never-ending source of original ideas - like Flea.

Edit - with these planets/signs involved, maybe the 2/8 axis is purely about insecurity - in everything!

EJ:)

[flea]

Ahh thankyou EJ, Big energies for sure but well,
Starlink, with sun squaring that little combo I had fun and games when pluto transited my sun.

I feel it more with my inner father construct, or my understanding of masculinity rather than all about the father I have in this life. Relating to men is not the easiest thing for me, I can relate as friends, but have relationship, mmmmm. Think there is a lot of past life urghhhh. It is about bringing into balance my female and male sides. And allowing my male side to be strong enough to shut up for a while so my female side can breathe and come to life in fullness.

Connecting to my feeling side, my cancer moon that had been shut up for eons that really brought me back to loving life again.

I wonder if chiron's wound is the one of being mortal, all the pain we feel just to experience mortality. Making friends with life and being in the moment, but the pain and shame of the mortal existence, how do you heal that???

Loving the thread, giving me so much to think about. And yes EJ I relate a lot to Chiron, (and Neptune, lots of contacts) and also my NN is tightly conjunct my mum's chiron and widely conjunct my Dad's, soooooo. Cant esacpe the process of healing and parents. Sometimes I think I am a medium through which they heal?? I have a lot of progressed planets in aquarius at mo, 5 I think, and with neptune and chiron hovering over my MC for quite a while, I am sensing transformations.


Love Light Flea

[starlink]

Hi friends, well, just 10 minutes before I leave, thanks a million for your comments!! Yes Flea, this lady is indeed a very tough cooky, told me that her husband is better with the kids than she is, businesslike, but truly kind as well and we got along well the 1st time I did one of her other sons. After that she "dared" to let me do her own chart:)

Oh my EJ, suicide, mmmm.... I wonder what happened with her. Maybe she will tell me, or just leave it at: Yes, that was difficult or something like that.
I am interested in that interpretation. You can email it to me or PM it. Thanks in advance. Well, must run now! Wish me luck!
Cheers, Star.

[EJ53]

Oh my EJ, suicide, mmmm.... I wonder what happened with her. Maybe she will tell me, or just leave it at: Yes, that was difficult or something like that.
I am interested in that interpretation. You can email it to me or PM it. Thanks in advance.

Jeremy

I note Starlink is referring to you here - but, I'd also be interested in that interpretation. Any chance of a copy?

EJ:cheers:

[Nexus7]

'This makes sense to me, as the wound does always seem to the individual to have been inflicted by others. And the hidden dynamics might be stated as :-

Psychological wounds come not from what happens to us, but from how the event(s) made us feel at the time.'

I don't doubt that our own interpretation of events does matter, but I cannot agree that this is just a one-way process.

Suppose you are left-handed. Well, if you are lucky, that may never be an issue within the culture you grow up.

However, in some cultures, it could mean any manner of 'wounding' coming your way if the cultural attitude that this indeed means that there is something about you that is not quite right. There are taboos in some countries about using your left hand for many things, it may mean being forced to write with the right hand or being left alone, but being labelled as behaviourally challenged or just simply being made to feel clumsy, or even of being in league with the devil in some way.

But it depends on what you meet in something that is external to you and I would imagine - luckily, this did not happen to me, but it did happen to my mother - however brave a face you may put on it, being forced to write with your righthand can lead to neurologial difficulties later on - more 'wounding.'

[EJ53]

Nexus7

This is a good way of illustrating our different views, as I use my knife/fork "left-handedly" and, at primary school, encountered the same problem as your mother - but in a minor way that left no psychological or neurological difficulties. In essence, one elderly teacher identified me as a "Devil's child" and made it her mission to get me to eat right-handedly - rapping me on the knuckles with a spoon whenever she caught me doing otherwise. However, from the outset, I (and everyone else) identified her as being the "odd" one rather than me - finding it more a source of amusement than traumatic. So, as I had no "feelings of shame", it left no psychological scar.

But, in your mother's case, the "event" was more serious/severe and may have evoked that feeling of shame - either because she felt "odd/different" or because she was unable to prevent her individuality/left-handedness being destroyed by others. And that would indeed create the kind of deep-seated psychological problem that (I believe) is indicated by the Chiron placement in our charts.

The neurological issue then does become a factor - but only if it re-inforces the sense of shame.

:sunny: (Thanks. This "event vs feeling" issue is fundamental to my views on Chiron - so having it questioned/disputed by you/others helps me enormously.)

EJ:)

[EJ53]

Flea

....I wonder if chiron's wound is the one of being mortal, all the pain we feel just to experience mortality. Making friends with life and being in the moment, but the pain and shame of the mortal existence, how do you heal that???

This makes sense, as giving up his life (rather than his immortality) was how Chiron got rid of his pain.

On the "shame issue" though, the myth indicates that this was felt by his parents rather than Chiron. He was born "different" because they had transformed themselves into horses to hide their affair from the wife of his father (Saturn) - so he reminded them of their "shameful behaviour" (and he was abandoned/hidden to avoid others finding out about it). So, I'm wondering if our "shame" exists at the very deepest level - put there by the soul/Father at the time of birth and merely reawakened in this lifetime to be atoned for/lived with. Thus, in my case, I feel no shame about being manipulated - it comes from allowing that to happen.

Starlink

Would midpoints between Chiron and other planets be of interest you think?

Hope your consultation went well yesterday.

I've now looked at my own mid-points in the way you suggested and :

Natal pluto sits on chiron/south node; trines chiron/jupiter and sextiles chiron/saturn

Natal Mercury sextiles chiron/uranus

Because of the south node involvement, maybe the pluto contacts are about what I should not be doing - trying to eliminate/heal the wound by applying jupiter "wisdom" and saturn "discipline".

No ideas yet on what the Mercury contact means, but the chiron/uranus mid-point is semi-sextile pluto (which Mercury squares exactly).

All

I think I'm getting close now to a "suggested approach to the Chiron wound" - based on a sample size of one chart and one person's experience (mine). However, I have not a clue how to explain it here!

EJ:)

[QuaOs]

I have Chiron closely conjunct Caput Algol at Yod's apex in Taurus 3rd. That has been pretty painful all the way to now. You can see from my chart right here:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/imagehosting/53024825d5ce7fd51.png

Since in the circle of childhood friends/cousins and in school I have been quite subject of mocking and bully for my weirdness/differences from others.

And until these days I still have to struggle with my speech, often frustrating myself and others who find my words hard to understand. This have to do with both physically feeling uncomfort and being full of phlegm in my throat almost all the time, and mentally when trains of my ideas often get blocked and come out from my mouth in odd rhythms that seem out of sync with other normal people. Still to be proven if it is really "unhealable" wound or not...

(But I can do far better in writing)

[EJ53]

QuaOs

You seem to have a good understanding of your Chiron wound and how to "live with it" by written rather than oral communications. I do not use fixed stars, but understand that Algol can make you "lose your head and/or fail to see the obvious" - so, I can see how that would affect your trains/rythms of thought. However, the yod does point to this wound becoming a strength after some kind of self-transformation through your career and involvement in large groups. Maybe some of the comments in this thread will help you with that.

All

Using my own life/chart/wound to work through the suggestions/ideas posted on this thread, I'd now speculate that the chiron wound and it's influence might be clarified by the following process :-

Step 1
Re-draw the chart showing only Chiron, the planets within aspect orbs to it and any planets that aspect a Chiron/Planet mid-point.

Step 2

Attempt an interpretation of the planets in aspect, in the light of the text book general meaning of the Chiron placement.

Step 3

Attempt to interpret the natal planet/chiron mid-point contacts

Step 4

Identify the timing of conjunctions made by transitting Chiron to each planet aspecting natal Chiron - and the timing of squares/oppositions/return to its own natal position.

Step 5

Ascertain (from memory) what happened at the time of the Chiron transits in step 4.

Step 6

Prepare yourself for the "pain and shame" of the realisation that we are indeed the architect of our own misfortunes.

This needs an illustration so, using my chart as drawn at step 1 :-

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/imagehosting/thum_64094848d75903290.jpg

Step 1

My natal chart above shows Chiron and the planets it aspects (in green) - with the planets that aspect Chiron/Planet mid-points (in red)

Step 2

My textbook (Chiron by Martin Lass) says that Chiron in Scorpio inflicts a "feeling that the world is against us, that others seek to bring us down, that others may be plotting against us, and/or that others manipulate us and/or undermine us." He also suggests that, in the 3rd house, this will most likely be "played out in the arena of knowledge, the mind, communications, media and siblings". So, my task is to determine which (if any) of these generalities actually applies to me - something that only I can ever have all the information to do (unless I choose to share it). The first step towards that is to attempt an interpretation of the 5 planet aspect configuration in the chart - Chiron + Sun + Jupiter + Saturn + Uranus - as follows :-

The parental 10/4 axis reveals a father who believed education and originality bring success (uranus in gemini/9th and on MC) - and a mother who feared that "rising above our station in life" brings unhappiness (Jupiter in detriment in Capricorn/4th and on IC). Both parents were highly skilled in knowing how to manipulate me through my natural desire to please them (uranus/jupiter aspects to sun/chiron) - and both considered social standing/position and "office work" as THE indicator of success (uranus/jupiter aspects to saturn in Virgo/11th).

This exactly describes the early/childhood influences on me that ultimately led to pursuing a career in accountancy (for money/status). But, as the uranus placement shows, that meant suppressing my individuality - becoming a "closet astrolger"/uranian in a very saturnian environment.

Step 3

Pluto sits on Chiron/South Node; trines Chiron/Jupiter and sextiles Chiron/Saturn. I'm hoping this indicates the wisdom (jupiter) and discipline (saturn) to understand the wound in-depth (pluto) - but, because the South Node indicates an "undesirable path", attempting to eliminate (pluto) ought not to be my objective. (That and the "inseparable closeness" of my sun/chiron may explain why I believe this wound needs to be lived with).

Neptune sits on Chiron/Saturn; sextiles Chiron/Jupiter and trines Chiron/NN - so, I'm hoping my Neptune/imagination is working correctly here.

Mercury sextiles Chiron/Uranus but squares Chiron/Nodes - and I'm guessing there is a danger here of allowing the mind to interfere with intuition.

So, the Chiron/planet mid-point contacts appear to show me how to move to an understanding of the wound - and when to stop.

Steps 4, 5 and 6

I've just lost 90 minutes of "saved" text on this to the ethers. Having that happen again would be about as welcome as a hernia to an overweight lumberjack on steroids and stilts, so I'll assume these steps need no further comment.

[Looking to Jupiter]

great thread folks....

I have chiron in the 3rd and my trauma is connected to my sisters......I'll never probably get over it, but the one thing that still leaves me from not losing the plot all together, (no, i still have a way to go :p) is that other people have chirons wounds too......

Simple, but its been helpful when I have most needed to feel ok ......

[starlink]

Jeremy

I note Starlink is referring to you here - but, I'd also be interested in that interpretation. Any chance of a copy?


Yes, indeed indeed. Typical Mercury retro again, sorry. I did mean Jeremy of course.

EJ, the consultation went very well indeed. No father who committed suicide though, Jeremy, but a very very strict one who did not tolerate any opposition. The whole house had to behave and do things the way he wanted it and now, she has the same issues with a (much weaker than herself, mind you!!) husband. She feels totally undeserving, always gets critisized (typical of an insecure person), feels like nothing she does is ever done well and never gets any credit for her efforts. She feels no support whatsoever coming from him for her (Saturn in 8, his 2nd house!), and even financially things are critical in his department, strongly influencing her.
Most difficult of course for a Sun in Capricorn in the 5th house and Leo.
Ascendant. Imagine!!
Still, that father issue is so deeply imbedded that she just took it all in, until now...... now that Uranus is conjuncting Chiron/Saturn and opposing Uranus/Pluto in the 2nd! AND she has Neptune conjunct her 7th house cusp, squaring her own Neptune in the 4th. Big changes, big confusion. I stressed the fact that she was much stronger than her husband and just has to do what she all along wanted to do, setting up her own business. She does not work, very surprising, but I guess this father issue + her Moon in 12 have always underminded her selfconfidence. I think she will now finally do something about it.

Nexus, this is totally true:
Psychological wounds come not from what happens to us, but from how the event(s) made us feel at the time.'

Other individuals who are less sensitive to certain negative input will probably not feel it as so painful, letting it influence most of their lives. It also very much depends on our individual psychological needs. If , like in my example of that client, she needs actually loads of attention and appreciation for her efforts (Leo Asc., Capi Sun in Leo house) then this denial of her father and now husband, do hurt tremendously.
Should she have been a Virgo Sun with Pisces Asc. and Neptune in the 6th, then doing what others order you to do comes so much easier and will not be felt like an impediment.

EJ:
I feel no shame about being manipulated - it comes from allowing that to happen.

Absolutely. It is comparable to rape. There also the victim feels shame because she allowed it to happen, even though under the circumstances she could do absolutely nothing to prevent it.

Thanks for the overview you created EJ. So very much the teacher :)!!
It is a good description of how to approach, not only this Chiron interpretation, but any planets interpretation and especially configurations. They should also be looked at "by themselves".

Cheers, Star.

[Svencanz]

Anger is an interesting one...

I have ready access to my anger; much of my earlier anger was fuelled by "fear of existence" - quite literally. I chose anger instead of feeling the fear.
I have done much anger work, and also much rebirthing and similar stuff; but one of the strangest things happened about 15 years ago, when I really got stuck into music. Suddenly one night, I woke up to see two warrior (they looked medieval or earlier) guys just walk out of my heart and take off...
These guys had been part of me a long time - they finally got bored with me as I was not exercising as much anger as they wanted me to - I was simply doing too much music.

Anger has also taken a bad rap during the Christian era; but authentic anger is very valuable for communication. Some of my best moments have been when people have yelled at me !!

The current-day problem, I believe, is not so much the anger itself - but that we have been programmed to disconnect from our anger.
People get angry, blow their mental fuses - which causes them to feel separate - then act on this separation/anger combination with violence.

There is, actually, no need to disconnect when you are angry!!
Instead, the trick is to ENGAGE in communication, then allow the anger to be communicated.

Anger is also a special animal for men (some women tend to flip into tears as a gambit to avoid the discomfort of anger) - because by feeling anger, men are often able to reclaim a denied reflection. I have done this lots myself, and seen many men do it. In plain English: many men deny a particular choice, using anger as a "buffer" to keep that choice away. By feeling the anger that is related to that choice, they (we) actually bring the choice CLOSER. In that way, expressing and feeling anger is a way of enlarging your experience. Wierd but true.

When I was working with hard-core mens seminars, a standard practise was to "push" men by yelling at them, holding hands and pushing against them, while looking them in the eye. It was ASTOUNDING to see what change and process that resulted in. (Including for myself...)
We taught one another we could be angry, and connected.

Sven

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi All,

Interesting thread my Chiron I am still trying to suss out it is in Taurus in 7th so think thats about self-worth it is conjunct my Sun also in 7th so I am wondering if that is father issues?

Does everyone have their Chiron square at around 12 years old?

Blessings,

Anna

[Jeremy]

Typical Mercury retro again, sorry. I did mean Jeremy of course.

How true, the file I wrote for this consultation is corrupt apparently; I emailed my b.i.l to send me back a copy and he cannot find it! :eek: I shouldn't even be surprised. Under the circumstances.

The Chiron square can occur at any time between the ages of 6 and 23 due to the highly elliptical orbit of Chiron; if your Chiron is natally in Pisces or Aries then it is likely to occur nearer the age of 20. Mine occurred age 20, and with my Chiron on the Dsc. my first serious relationship came to an abrupt halt at exactly that time.

Jeremy

[EJ53]

AnnaViolet

Chiron.....is in Taurus in 7th so think thats about self-worth it is conjunct my Sun also in 7th so I am wondering if that is father issues?.......Does everyone have their Chiron square at around 12 years old?

As you'll know, we can trust neither our software nor the "expert texts" on Chiron yet but :-

Chiron in Taurus creates deep insecurity - a fear of losing what we value. In the 7th house, that might translate as a fear of losing your partner. The Sun conjunction suggests that you and the wound are "inseperable". (I have the conjunction and firmly believe that healing the wound, rather than living with it, would make me less humane.)

My software indicates that your Chiron transit cycle is as follows :-

1. First square - Aug/Sept 92 and (maybe) again in April 93 (retrograde);
2. Opposition - Christmas 97 + May 98 (retro) + Sept 98;
3. 2nd square - Feb 2008
4. Return - Oct 2030?

Jeremy

When are you going to produce some easy-to -use Chiron software that can be relied upon?

(****** Mercury! I was looking forward to reading that interpretation.)

Sven

I chose anger instead of feeling the fear.

Well put - it's the assertiveness vs agression/acquiescence expressed fully in eight words!

Perhaps, with Chiron wounds, we choose avoidance instead of feeling the pain.

Starlink

Glad the consultation went well.

Maybe clients will benefit someday from a timed list of Chiron transits to itself and natally aspected planets. These do seem to produce "hits" on significant events - and (probably) safely, because those who are not ready to confront the wound are unlikely to recall the event. (But we need Jeremy's reliable software first).

Other individuals who are less sensitive to certain negative input will probably not feel it as so painful, letting it influence most of their lives.

After Flea's comment on the pain of mortality, I'm thinking "letting Chiron influence most of our life" is the major issue. Seems to me now that this may be a "soul-seated wound", with events in this lifetime merely bringing the karmic issue to consciousness for us to address. And, if so, failing to address it presumably results in more karma next time. (Those souls who fail to bring the issue to consciousness being less "accountable" than those who do but fail to confront it.)

Looking to Jupiter

I'll never probably get over it

With Chiron though, is our objective to heal/get over it or to learn to live with it? If you did not have this wound, would you be a better/worse person?

(In my case, I think I'm a better person because of the wound - so I'm choosing not to try to heal/get over it.)

EJ:)

[Looking to Jupiter]

With Chiron though, is our objective to heal/get over it or to learn to live with it? If you did not have this wound, would you be a better/worse person?

(In my case, I think I'm a better person because of the wound - so I'm choosing not to try to heal/get over it.)


I would not be me without my wound.....I have learnt to live with it I guess, and I guess i am grateful for the perspective it has given me on looking at the world....wouldnt change anything....

[starlink]

Hello everyone! I am having a difficult one coming up on monday. Young man, Sun in Virgo, Asc. Scorpio, Moon in Taurus in the 6th.

He is depressed at the moment (Progr. Moon conj.Progr. Saturn in his Pr. 8th house, but also in his natal 8th house (as he has Saturn there). Even his Solar Return 2008-2009 which is coming up in August, has Moon in Cancer in the 8th but fairly well aspected. Progressed Moon will be at 2°Leo (and dangerously close to the Solar Eclipse point at 9° Leo!).

His Chiron is in Aries in his 5th house and conjunct Jupiter retrograde (3°orb).
This conjunction opposes Uranus in his 11th and squares Saturn in his 8th (Chiron-Saturn exact same degree by the way), but it also trines his Sun/Venus conjunction in the 9th in Virgo.

The conjunction also is the Apex of a YOD with Mercury and the Asc./NNode conjunction. Actually, it is the midpoint of Jupiter and Chiron which is the Apex more exactly. Merc. rules his MC and his 8th house.

Ruler of the Jupiter/Chiron conjunction is Mars, in 7 and opposed to Neptune and square Sun/Venus, trine Pluto.

What do I tell this young man!?

His wound and "shame" is (I think) about his selfexpression (5th house) and self worth (Jupiter rules the 2nd). Transiting Pluto, now hovering around 28° Sag. and 1° Cap. is squaring this pair, and asking to transform his feelings about himself which obviously cause him great difficulty.

His depressed state of mind has made it (up till now) very difficult for him to finish his university studies. He is still at it at 33 years....

But what is the cause of his depressive state of mind? I have a feeling it has to do with his father. There is a T-square between Saturn in 8, square Uranus at 29° Libra and square this Jupiter/Chiron conjunction.

I am afraid he could want to give up on life. Solar Arc Pluto (his ruler) will exactly semi-sextile his Neptune in the 1st house and Neptune rules the house of endings, his 4th. Transiting Uranus is conjunct his 4th house cusp.
In his Solar Return (transiting)Uranus is also in 4 (the SR Ascendant falls exactly on his natal Ascendant, just 24 sec. earlier so what happens in the SR chart, also happens in the exact natal places), opposing his 8th house ruler, and trining his Moon in 8 as well as his Ascendant and squares Pluto, ruler of his Asc. It does look like "the easy way out" to me. I hope I am wrong.

Any ideas on this Chiron set-up? I would be very grateful as I can be biased because I know him. He is the son of my best girlfriend.

Thank you! Starlink

[flea]

I would think jupiter blows the wound out of proportion, so that the impact is seen as far more desctructive than it actually is. Venus in detriment and hidden by the sun could imply a lack of self love. So believing he is worth it. If university studies have gone on this long then there could be lot of sabotage going on. Is this really something that is important or is the situation prolonged because it validates a lack of self worth???

Maybe there was a really strong reaction to something in childhood that was misunderstood and then supressed into the subcon, that resulted in some neg behaviour patterns.

Thoughts that come to mind. Jup retro is a strange one to deal with. The best in life comes from going inside or the opposite way to most other people.

Love Light Flea

[Jeremy]

Star, I am having a little difficulty visualising this pattern but what I get is that Jupiter conjunct always broadens what it contacts, if that is our pain then it could signify an ever-expanding pain or wound; it might even find some philosophical pleasure in feeling depressed (if that makes sense).
What I will say is that Sa/Ur always gives unusual emotional tension and strain, it is the push-pull nature of this pairing that I find often gives a passive-aggressive reaction to life in general, one minute they are irritable, the next fatalistic and hopeless.
Chiron in the 5th might give unusual situations regarding sex, so I would not be surprised if there was something in that. On a less obvious level it would say something concerning the pain of not receiving enough (Jupiter) love and appreciation.

Okay, those are just a few off the cuff thoughts, I would need to see the chart to do better. Hope it goes well.
Jeremy

[starlink]

Thanks a lot Flea and Jeremy!

If university studies have gone on this long then there could be lot of sabotage going on. Is this really something that is important or is the situation prolonged because it validates a lack of self worth???



In this family university studies are very important, so I dont think it validates his lack of selfworth so much. I have a feeling that he maybe chose a subject that is really not what he wants, but did anyways, because he was expected to do it, or just to study something !(so often the case).
A lack of self-love, very obvious indeed. Mother is also a bit cool, not very motherly (Libra Sun, Gemini Asc.). Father very weak in my opinion.

That Jupiter broadens and makes things worse is very true of course, I thought of that as well. I could also mean that the hurt is extreme.

Jeremy, unknowingly, you have mentioned something which really makes sense to me with this comment: Chiron in the 5th might give unusual situations regarding sex. I have been thinking about this but would have great difficulties to comment on this. It is a touchy subject as you well can imagine.

Thanks for your insight, everything helps and different point of views are always very informative.

Cheers, Star.

[starlink]

I come back later, must go now. Probably tonight. Cheers! Star.

[flea]

Hi All,

I think quite a bit about chiron in my chart, as it seems so hard squaring sun and the uranus/pluto conjunction, so I kind of concentrated on that, forgetting the good stuff, which I have been considering recently, as each time I do healing on myself, good things result.

Venus is on my sun/chiron midpoint, and chiron sextiles mars and trines neptune and moon. Mars seems to be a planet that works very well for me, giving the energy and drive to deal with whatever the sunchironpluto T-square throws. Anyway back to the sun/chiron midpoint, my venus is a little detached, but maybe that is a good thing, being able to see the wound clearer. Venus in aquarius likes being different, following an individual path, but also has a connection to the greater good (paradox that one). I use art a lot, always done it, and that is a path I have following to explore my healing energies.

The only personal planet chiron doesn't touch is mercury, but then mercury is at my south node where I feel safe and easy.

My thinking I suppose is the sun chiron midpoint is a way to heal the specific issue of an individual. with Venus in Aquarius there, I personally become more my true self when I am exploring myself through painting and finding my own unique way through life, and often viewing it with disppassion like it is a mental puzzle.

Love Light Flea

[Julie]

The other day my partner met an old friend of his, and they were catching up on what was happening now in their lives. My partner's friend talked about how him and his wife were still struggling to have a baby after 10 years. The couple are going through IVF and have spent so long trying. It did cross my mind that this sort of unfairness in life would be linked to Chiron. Possibly in their composite chart they may have this planet in the 5th/Leo or connected somewhere in their chart strong. As I do think this is the kind of pain that is really unfair, maybe other factors in the chart are involved. I was saying to my partner how it must be heartbreaking for them to hear about all the teenage girls getting pregnant after first time sex, who are not even mature enough or emotionally ready to have a child, and often do not even want the baby.

It is interesting to explore Chiron and people's lives, Clint Eastwood has a 6th house Chiron in Taurus and I have read his dad was constantly looking for work, and there was a major struggle in life to work (6th) for what you have(Taurus) Clint went through many jobs himself quite a long list. Tyra banks has Chiron in Aries in the 10th house. She was the first black woman to be featured on the cover of Victoria secrets catalogue. Chiron is quite difficult in her chart it conjuncts her Arian Moon and squares Saturn. Maybe there is a wound to her identity (Aries) and a feeling of being dominated and suppressed, and how her identity as a female black model fits in society. Being a black model in her day was difficult for her along with the other black models of her time. Although she did become a big success she may always feel the wound of being an outsider on some level. I remember reading the battle she had with Naomi Campbell.

http://today.ccopinion.com/images/2005-11-tyra-banks-naomi-campbell.jpg



Tyra says,I was tired of having to deal with you… I was tired of the pain; I was tired of the comparison.





I was tired of constantly hearing that I got cancelled from this job or that, or hearing that this photographer was called, or that magazine was called and (told) not to use me.



For some reason she was really traumatized by what Naomi Campbell was doing to her.


Brief story below: I personally don't know why it effected her so much, but If it was her Chiron in Aries/Moon/Saturn being triggered than it probably was deeply painful for her. I might check out the mother/Daughter relationship as well, as Chiron is connected to the Moon/Mother in her chart. My little boy has has Chiron exactly on his Moon. I am interested in how other people have experienced this aspect in regard to the mother. Anyway story below, I interrupted with my comments again. Yabba, yabba, yabba.



http://www.hollywood.com/news/Naomi__Tyra_End_Hostilities_with_a_Tearful_TV_Make Up_Session/3469057



As people have said on the thread there is no way to heal the wound you may always have pain in this area of life, you may feel like an outsider, may feel you are wounded in some way. But you can have valuable teaching to offer other's.

[EJ53]

Flea

....The only personal planet chiron doesn't touch is mercury, but then mercury is at my south node where I feel safe and easy.

Maybe this indicates that the mind/intellect is not the path to heal the (karmic) Chiron wound.

...My thinking I suppose is the sun chiron midpoint is a way to heal the specific issue of an individual.

I have sun conjunct chiron, so both are technically conjunct sun/chiron mid-point - and what you say here seems correct. If sun = self expression, then the mid-point may be where/how we "self-express" (and thereby heal) the wound - with all aspecting planets helping/hindering the process, rather than only conjunctions. And, in my case, the sun conjunct chiron requires me to accept/express that the wound and I are "inseparable".

I wonder if chiron's wound is the one of being mortal, all the pain we feel just to experience mortality. Making friends with life and being in the moment, but the pain and shame of the mortal existence, how do you heal that???

According to the myth, Chiron was a "one-off" rather than a centaur - as he was half-horse only because his parents disguised themselves as horses to hide their affair. So, Chiron represents individuality of the highest order - absolutely the only one of his kind! And that's why his mother felt ashamed and hid him from the world. Thus, the shame came from something that happened before he was born (and was not his) - but, the wound was not inflicted until after he had already had a successful and productive life.

So, I'm thinking the "shame" relates to suppression of individuality before we were born (karmic) - and the wound/pain comes with the realisation that we have allowed this to happen again in this lifetime. That may explain why my memories of being manipulated are not painful but realising that I allowed it to happen is.

Julie

It is interesting to explore Chiron and people's lives, Clint Eastwood has a 6th house Chiron in Taurus and I have read his dad was constantly looking for work, and there was a major struggle in life to work (6th) for what you have(Taurus) Clint went through many jobs himself quite a long list.

Clint Eastwood is a good example of your point. As "Rowdy Yates" (Rawhide), he played "himself" - which Frank Sinatra also did in "From Here To Eternity". And both seemed to be more comfortable with "who they were" afterwards - so, maybe "psycho-drama" is also a route to healing the Chiron Wound.

...I personally don't know why it effected her so much

Perhaps Tyra Banks' Chiron wound is " a deep-seated fear of Naomi Campbell".

EJ:)

[Jeremy]

If sun = self expression, then the mid-point may be where/how we "self-express" (and thereby heal) the wound - with all aspecting planets helping/hindering the process, rather than only conjunctions. And, in my case, the sun conjunct chiron requires me to accept/express that the wound and I are "inseparable".

And that self-realisation is possible for you once you have awakened as a healer. I think you may be there already.

On a technical note, I have read a few times that the Saturn Uranus midpoint is the bridge in the personal horoscope that encompasses the rainbow-bridge theme of Chiron, thus progressions and arcs to that point can activate Chiron. for me, Sa/Ur=Mc, although only at close to 4 degrees, but the Sun and Venus cross the midpoint on the 20th and 23rd of this month, so we shall see what happens then.

[starlink]

Hello EJ! I am wondering about this:

According to the myth, Chiron was a "one-off" rather than a centaur - as he was half-horse only because his parents disguised themselves as horses to hide their affair. So, Chiron represents individuality of the highest order - absolutely the only one of his kind! And that's why his mother felt ashamed and hid him from the world. Thus, the shame came from something that happened before he was born (and was not his) - but, the wound was not inflicted until after he had already had a successful and productive life.


Now, when you hide someone from the world, then he must have been born already dont you think? She gave birth and oops, she saw that the baby was half horse and only then decided to hide him. So it must have been after he was born, not before. Am I right or wrong in assuming this? And because he was so hidden by his mother, he felt that he was something to be ashamed of, hence this feeling associated with Chiron I suppose.

[EJ53]

....Now, when you hide someone from the world, then he must have been born already dont you think? She gave birth and oops, she saw that the baby was half horse and only then decided to hide him. So it must have been after he was born, not before. Am I right or wrong in assuming this? And because he was so hidden by his mother, he felt that he was something to be ashamed of, hence this feeling associated with Chiron I suppose.

Hi Starlink,

The myth says nothing about him feeling shame. He seems to have accepted "who he was" and got on with life - becoming both successful and a teacher, before the wound was inflicted. The pain of the wound then drove him to find a cure, leading to becoming a healer to some and (later) a "compassionate healer" to anyone in need.

But, although his mother felt the shame when he was born, the related event had already taken place. In effect, the damage was done before birth and the shame recorded at the time of birth - in the parent/soul rather than Chiron/the individual. (My view only of course).

EJ:)

[Julie]

By EJ Perhaps Tyra Banks' Chiron wound is " a deep-seated fear of Naomi Campbell".

Yes Naomi's treatment of her certainly triggered off her Chiron wound to her own identity (and yes a deep seated fear of Naomi spoilt brat Campbell) But all said and done she learned some hard lessons from Naomi a woman who does not bow down to anyone, she calls the shots (Tyra learned some good Aies lessons from Naomi. Naomi herself has Chiron in Aries but Naomi also has Venus/Mars in Gemini square Pluto verbally she can murder you, if Tyra knew astrology she would totally comprehend the woman's personality.

I think as painful as it was to her Tyra now teaches other up and coming models to be strong in their identity and persevere through the hardest and most painful of times, always remembering who you are. Although she was hard on the girl in the clip below, I think she likes tough love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53sOpQQWOOA

[Jeremy]

My wife was in the same class as Naomi at school, she still has a hand-drawn birthday card from her when she was 12.

[Looking to Jupiter]

My wife was in the same class as Naomi at school, she still has a hand-drawn birthday card from her when she was 12.

:eek: I bet some people would pay a heap for that....

so was she a good card maker?:D

[Jeremy]

It was Italia Conti, a dance and stage school, apparently Naomi couldn't dance, and was usually given plenty of space on account of flailing elbows. Seems she hasn't changed much :)

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi EJ53,

Hello again thank you for the info ;)


AnnaViolet
As you'll know, we can trust neither our software nor the "expert texts" on Chiron yet but :-

Chiron in Taurus creates deep insecurity - a fear of losing what we value.Yes I do have that fear i mentioned in another thread about my mum leaving...i always thought about it the way round that I am fearful of losing people cos she left but I know someone who worked with an NLP practicioner on their childhood and they worked out that at a very young age they 'decided' that the world was an unsafe place and then went on to create situations which proved this.. In the 7th house, that might translate as a fear of losing your partner.Yep!I wish i wasnt so concerned with having a partner it is such a big focus in my chart. The Sun conjunction suggests that you and the wound are "inseperable". (I have the conjunction and firmly believe that healing the wound, rather than living with it, would make me less humane.)Hmmn that is a very interesting way of looking at it I am trying to get my head around that...One thing that I thought was very odd before I knew much about Astrology/Chiron was that when I lived in a shared house people said i was such a calming person to have around but at the time I was absolutly dying inside I was anxious and depressed...this is a pattern I have of being able to help others to feel balanced but not often being able to do the same for myself and later when I read about Chiron I realised how Chironic it is...
The first intuitive reading I had said this 'You are a healer but need to focus on self-healing ; some healers forget to start with themselves first'..
My software indicates that your Chiron transit cycle is as follows :-

1. First square - Aug/Sept 92 and (maybe) again in April 93 (retrograde);
2. Opposition - Christmas 97 + May 98 (retro) + Sept 98;
3. 2nd square - Feb 2008
4. Return - Oct 2030?

1. Had not long started secondary school was having a very difficult time at home and was acting out at school being totally wild cos it was the only place to let out my feelings...I was on report and got given detentions almost every day which I used to throw away and then be really fearful my father would find out.This is also around the time that my mum and my step dad who ended up being a true Dad to me said that we could come and live with them...
2. well October 97 I was a messed up teenager I felt so alone and depressed and that no one was there for me and I took an overdose my parents(mum and step dad) were so shocked and upset but also made me feel so guilty about it but one good thing about it was that my mum took me to a homeopath who really helped she gave me this remedy called homeopathic gold which is for when all of the light has gone out of your life which is truly how I felt...anyway I got on well with my step brother and my mum asked him to look after me and help me feel better he was 27 I was 15 but I got drunk with him and we ended up kissing and I ended up in an absusive thing with him for quite a few months..Also had another guy who was a 'friend' of the famiily take advantage of me aswell...I just couldnt say no to anyone..My step brother was also manipulating me to make things worse between me and my parents as he was bitter that his parents had split up. Then my parents threw me out when I was 16...One of the worst times ever...
3.Extreme depression and realising how much I still need to heal from childhood.

Looking to Jupiter

With Chiron though, is our objective to heal/get over it or to learn to live with it? If you did not have this wound, would you be a better/worse person?

(In my case, I think I'm a better person because of the wound - so I'm choosing not to try to heal/get over it.)
I find your insights on Chiron really interesting food for thought...In what way are you consciously choosing not to heal?I would be really interested to hear more...

Thank you,

Anna
EJ:)

[Otay]

the thing that bothers me about chiron is that, NOBODY, can help others in an area that they canot help themselves in....it is a bit like learning from a failure...what good does it do? THere is the old saying, those that teach can't do...that isn't always true, yet it seems the true experts would rather be doing then teaching unless they feel a real need to spread information and knowledge for the pure sake of the subject matter, to make a difference....

It seems to be similar to an unconfronted personal aspect of life, in which one seeks to escape the wound and having experienced it, while extroverting it on those that have a similar, even if they may have similar, "saving" them from the trouble that "they" have had, when it is really the trouble one has had theirself.
With chiron it seems that helping others is an escape from dealing with personal issues, that were painfull enough to throw one out of ones own identity and path......

Trouble is, the word heal, it means finished, done, for eternity, cleared up.....
Tsquare

Ya' know, these are excellent points to re-frame in terms of perspective and what healing/teaching means. Erase the word "expectation" of the natal Chiron being "healed".
If you have firsthand experience of what happened to you when you took the wrong antibiotic and have permanent damage to your immune system, you could warn someone else and prevent them from being harmed by what wounded you.

I think Chiron is related to "knowledge sharing" plain and simple. The myth says Chiron "mentored orphans". (Who is not orphaned in this world, who is not alone in their perceptions, this is a natural human condition of becoming an individual).
If you were caught alone in the wilderness (and this world is a wilderness without a doubt) you discovered ways of protecting yourself and staying warm or splicing branches to make a shelter and can share that knowledge so another can benefit........

Which brings us to Darwin's Theory. That's what I think Chiron is for. No need always to dive into a deep bucket of unknowables.:D

[Otay]

Oh, a few more thots on Chiron.
Most people with chiron conjunct their suns are born teachers, some formal, some not. Chiron was a mentor. Learn one, teach one.
Chiron was above it all, non-mortal....which is a way of saying "something which is unmanifested and unborn" until it finds expression in the moment usually with a shock, and shocks are related to the real world and has no reference point because this moment of discovery is fresh (most times where one has to think fast to survive).
It has nothing really to do with our parents, I think. Chiron was not related by blood to his students.

Chiron does throw us into a state of emergency and learning "on the spot"
and is related to surviving, adding something to our genetic line that hasn't been done before (a constant Darwinian thing) and doesn't allow us to rest until it's over. Chiron takes us up in the air with our legs kicking and doesn't set us down until it's over.

Of course, Chiron also has to do with physical vulnerabilities which can be quite literal, ie., chiron is aries can give 'ya big fat migraines (but usually I've noticed needs mars/saturn aspects literally).

I met my teacher, who now lives in the marrow of my bones when Chiron went over my sun (my life was so in-the-moment and groundless, very painful I was so lost yet open and endlessly inquisitive and curious). But there were other transits accompanying it too. Saturn conjunct NN in gemini and jupiter and neptune transiting the SN in saj.
To this day I can't nail the experience into any category or say he gave me special attention because I was "spiritually high" or because I was one of the most "hopeless" and impossible to deal with.

Chiron in my chart is in early Scorpio. I was never sexually abused. But I did pick up my first psychology book at the age of 13 at the chiron opposition. The psychological abuse in my family was stellar in magnitude. But I was equipped enough to know these views of reality which I was taught couldn't possibly be right or real. This led to voracious curiosity and reading every philosopher I could find, every classic, every psychological school of thought including Piaget.
It was banging into negative signposts that led me there, pure pain and desperation, a lot of sadness and sheer aloneness that fueled that fire to know "what is real".:confused:

[starlink]

Hi Otay, you wrote:

Chiron in my chart is in early Scorpio. I was never sexually abused.


Do you feel this is one of the interpretations of a Chiron in Scorpio? Mine is at 4° Scorpio, in the 12th (of all places!!!) and square Saturn. Also Moon in 12 .This to me would be a big indication, but frankly I cannot remember anything from my childhood. I always suspected there was something, with my T-square of Pluto with Sun and Moon, but it could also be the realisation that the marriage of my parents was problematical (they never divorced, my father was adoring my mother. She was the problematical one).
And frankly,I adored him, so maybe he took disadvantage of that and I did not realize what was going on.As far as I know I had a wonderful childhood, apart from being pestered by children in school. But that also changed when I was about 16-17 and was chosen to take up a function in our school students society. From that moment on I was always liked and never ever had any trouble with others.

Strangely enough, when my father died, I felt nothing. I looked at him how he lay in his coffin and just said: "look at his beautiful piano hands". He was a great pianist. But I was not sad at all and I still dont understand anything about my totally untypical behavior. Would that have anything to do with my Chiron position?, having learned to cover up beautifully my pain and loneliness? I still do feel lonely in a crowd, it's like I cannot really connect, even though I might be the life of the party, or so it seems. I constantly analyze people's behavior, wonder why they do this or that. That's why psychology and psychological astrology fascinates me.

Starlink

[Julie]

Here is Barry Cowger's reading on Chiron in Scorpio/8th and it corresponds to what has been said on the thread of abuse and delving into psychology.

What about 8th House/Scorpio? Chiron is probably right at home here.

Barry: Definitely! This can get pretty ugly here. Rape, abuse, violations of all kinds, etc. Chiron was the result of a rape actually. So, when we go into our 8th House Chiron we're likely to have to meet the darkest aspects of what humans do to others for all kinds of roots or reasons. On the other end, these are the people who are able to pull others out of the flames of their own self-destruction.

Janet: An example would be?

Barry: Psychologists and people who work with those who have been abused and abandoned. One thing always leads to another. So here you have a theme of the collective again. If one is willing to go into ever deeper and deeper levels of their own stuff, it will reveal deeper strata within the psyche. Jung and Grof come to mind.

Janet: The realm of "Mysteries", too?

Barry: Yes, good. Rituals of death, rebirth, dying to one form of our identity and moving into another.

Janet: Kubler-Ross comes to mind, too.

Barry: Yes, great! I'd like to know where her Chiron is placed.

Link to site -
http://janetboyer.com/Chiron_the_Wounded_Healer.html

[flea]

Kubler Ross' book on death and dying was published within a year of chiron being discovered. Her Chiron is in 1degTaurus sextile moon.

Love Light Flea

[Otay]

Hi back, Starlink!
You & me are probably just a few months apart since my chart receives the same square aspects from saturn & pluto (chiron 7.33scorpio in the first house libra 21.50 rising. My blessing & curse is a good memory, a photographic one (but still notice the human tendency towards inaccuracies in myself, which keeps things undogmatic and humorous).
At times I wonder about the wisdom of going too deep into one's own navel beyond what one needs to carry on or get beyond or grow above. I understand my parents are just people and my father is not Darth Vader nor my mother Medusa (although she certainly comes close). We understand according to how far we are able to stretch, and certainly I have the good fortune of being able to make good use of what I have suffered and am still a work in progress, and will continue this open-ended story until the day I'm snatched out of this world. "Either this wallpaper goes or I do" Oscar Wilde's last words.

I have been rejected outright by my family based on a falsehood, a rumor, which was never corrected by my father although he knew the truth. I was only 20 years old at that eclipse 11-02-67 on my chiron. My sun at 7.29aries was transited by saturn (check it out) like a bug skewered on a collector's pin. Amazing pattern.
To this day I am the one who carries the pain, the blame blame blame. I did not lie, cheat or steal or betray anyone. I was not even impolite. I carried all sorts of psychological projections for other people. I asked too many questions and was "shushed" every time. I don't owe my parents or other biological members anything...they are strangers.

So, I met the most genuine teacher on the planet. He wrote me love letters. He was the first person who ever TALKED to me when I met him at age 24. I was smart, I was a quivering mess.
Yeah. That's why I came to this crazy planet.

So far as your moon/saturn in the 12th, you probably have a moving family history you're unaware of that is quite dramatic and "hushed" into you being the innocent free benefactor from some deep sacrifice by a member or members of the side of your family ruled by scorpio. Worth looking into that family tree, 'ay?

Love,
Otay

The joint is jumpin' this morning, innit!
To add to above reply I sent to Starlink, methinks it's worth it to look at the sun's relationship to chiron. Chiron is in an 8th house relationship to my sun in aries. Aries ruled by mars is scorpio's co-ruler. My sun is in the 6th house in 12th house relationship to my sun. I have mars in the 5th house in pisces and have worked with children with serious developmental problems (which is not to say I was skillful or especially knowledgeable, just keeping it real).
Jung Jung Jung is my kinda man since early on.
After Jung is transcendance, folks. That's what comes next.

Life gives us plenty of fresh opportunities to experience both joy and pain. No need to keep a-sucking on old pain with our heads ******* on backwards. Understand what we can, learn one, teach one.

Then, cheer up!

[EJ53]

AnnaViolet

With Chiron though, is our objective to heal/get over it or to learn to live with it? If you did not have this wound, would you be a better/worse person?

(In my case, I think I'm a better person because of the wound - so I'm choosing not to try to heal/get over it.)
I find your insights on Chiron really interesting food for thought...In what way are you consciously choosing not to heal?I would be really interested to hear more...

I think this was me rather than LTJ, although she made the same point (so it may indeed be her response you want rather than mine here). I'm choosing to accept that I allowed myself to be manipulated when young and, in doing so, probably followed the wrong "soul path" for over 40 years. What matters now is that I'm on the right path (I think) and intend not to allow myself to be manipulated from it in the future. I am who I am because of all that has happened in the past - and I'm happy about that and (seemingly) "at peace with my soul".

Otay

Which brings us to Darwin's Theory. That's what I think Chiron is for.

and

Chiron .....is related to surviving, adding something to our genetic line that hasn't been done before (a constant Darwinian thing)

I've been trying (through the myth) to link the evolutionary process to the union of Saturn/Time with Philyra/sealife; the subsequent birth of Chiron/individuisation and the giving up of his immortality to Prometheus (who fashioned Man from clay) - so far, without success. So, I'd welcome any expansion of your comments on Darwin's Theory/Chiron (quoted above).

Starlink

Strangely enough, when my father died, I felt nothing. I looked at him how he lay in his coffin and.....was not sad at all and I still dont understand anything about my totally untypical behavior. Would that have anything to do with my Chiron position?

My Chiron is in late Scorpio/3rd, and that is exactly how it was for me when my father died. But, I've always felt it was because I knew him so well that he "lived on in me" - whereas this did not happen with my mother and my behaviour was "more typical" when she died.

EJ:)

[Jeremy]

I have an interesting case today especially in light of the Rainbow Bridge theory. Philip Sedgwick noted that Chiron transiting the Saturn/Uranus midpoint resolves the Chiron dilemma. This makes sense if we are to ever personalise Uranian energy. By activating Chiron it serves as a bridge from the inner to the outer planets (that is the Rainbow Bridge theory) and enables us to evolve spiritually and begin to master outer planet energies. This seems quite comfortable to me in theory, and it is beginning to make sense in practise as well.

Here are the chart details of my client:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/imagehosting/65604853ac3157c2d.gif

As you can see, it is a profoundly interesting configuration. Chiron is placed in opposition to the Sa/Ur midpoint; Venus is even closer to it and actually Sa/Ur is conjunct, Uranus is probably overwhelmed by Saturn in his sign, and you might say that Ur is accidentally debilitated in the 5th. Chiron joins with Venus, so the pain of love is configured in opposition to that peculiar stop-start, arrested tension quality of Sa/Ur.

I should add that there are some other interesting midpoint pictures here too: Ve=Ur=Me/Ur and Me= Su/Mo. That configuration is incredibly potent if you ask me. He also has 4 planets in rulership and (arguably) Chiron in its fall, also Venus and Uranus on the Aries Point axis!! Chiron crossed the Sa/Ur conjunction and thus midpoint in this chart in New Year 2002.

If you want the exact details and background please PM me and I will send them along. I am struggling with this configuration a little, so any insights would be appreciated.

Jeremy

[hermetic]

since this is a Chiron thread, I have few questions. Lately I got really interested in Chiron issues, and by all the descriptions I can feel it is important in my case, all the descriptions feel right on spot.
may I ask, when it is located at the exact far midpoint of bundle chart pattern, this would mean it is fairly significant, as it's opposing all other planets?
And this far midpoint Chiron is at the same time conj Algol, is this really bad, and how can it be manifested? all this is in the 11th house

[QuaOs]

since this is a Chiron thread, I have few questions. Lately I got really interested in Chiron issues, and by all the descriptions I can feel it is important in my case, all the descriptions feel right on spot.
may I ask, when it is located at the exact far midpoint of bundle chart pattern, this would mean it is fairly significant, as it's opposing all other planets?
And this far midpoint Chiron is at the same time conj Algol, is this really bad, and how can it be manifested? all this is in the 11th house

Hey, you might want to have a look at my post in page 2 of this thread. I also have that pattern, but my natal Chiron is in 3rd.

[AnnaViolet7]

Hi EJ53,

[quote=EJ53]
I think this was me rather than LTJ, although she made the same point (so it may indeed be her response you want rather than mine here). I'm choosing to accept that I allowed myself to be manipulated when young and, in doing so, probably followed the wrong "soul path" for over 40 years. What matters now is that I'm on the right path (I think) and intend not to allow myself to be manipulated from it in the future. I am who I am because of all that has happened in the past - and I'm happy about that and (seemingly) "at peace with my soul".

Thank you I can understand what you mean ;)

I will get there too..

Anna :)

[starlink]

Hi Jeremy!

Just a minute to have a quick look and something dawned on me in relation to that chart you posted. You talk about Chiron and the pain connected with love. I see that Venus opposes this Uranus/Saturn conjunction, both rulers of the 7th house of relationships. The Moon opposes Neptune and Mars in the 7th squares the Sun exactly. These aspects by themselves show what you are mentioning in relation to Chiron:

Chiron joins with Venus, so the pain of love is configured in opposition to that peculiar stop-start, arrested tension quality of Sa/Ur.


So I came to the conclusion that maybe Chiron underlines what is already clearly seen in this chart by the oppositions.

Question now is, what does Chiron in the 11th house mean?

In my excerpt from a book written by Richard Nolle about Chiron (I copied it ages ago) "Chiron: The New Planet in Your Horoscope.He actually talks about Chiron as our quest in life, not about pain so much. He says:

The best way to get oriented to the Cetaur Planet is to start with its most obvious relationships with respect to the birth chart as a whole. Most basic of these is Chiron's relation to the horizon, whether above or below. Above = diurnal, Below= nocturnal.

A diurnal Chiron represents a diametrically opposite orientation to the possibilities signified by the Centaur Planet. The individual tends to project the Chiron function outward from the self onot others. There is paradoxically
a heightened awareness of the need for self-transformation,m yet at the same time there is a feeling that someone or something else outside the self must act to catalyze this metamorphosis. This person usually looks for a guru or mentor.

A Nocturnal Chiron is in the realm of the subjective, the psychic, the reality that is felt rather than seen. Such an idividual is more likely to play the role of a mentor than someone born under the aegis of the diurnal Chiron.
They are drawn into circumstances that lead them to an awareness of their potential for self-transformation.

Chiron in the rising hemisphere signifies one who tends to emphasize the more intuitive and idealistic possibilities of the Centaur Planet's archetype and persones born with Chiron in the left hemisphere for example, may be better at teaching healing than at practicing the healing art; or better at astrological research than astrological counseling.

Chiron in the setting hemisphere inclines toward the individual who expects his or her mentor to funcion to exhibit extremes of practicality and orderliness. the person born with this hemispheric emphasis of chiron would tend to expect self-transformation to be a long an d arduous road. By contrast the one's with Chiron in the rising hemisphere are inclined to believe that self-transformation comes in an instantaneous flash of enlightenment.

Of course, the Chiron archetype as a whole holds more to a middle course between these two extremes, we are dealing with a matter of emphasis on one of two opposites rather than a total exclusion of one or the other.

The Western Hemisphere Chiron placement tends to take on a Saturnian, as distinct from a Uranian, coloration. The rising side is intuitive and impusive, the setting side is cautious and conservative.

OK, then he goes on about the 4 quadrants and the 4 elements wherein Chiron is placed. Too long to type it all out. After this the placement in the houses and now we come to the 11th house placement of this Chiron.

"As a rule, those born with an 11th house Chiron have a need to be at the cutting edge of the future. They feel alienated from their environment and are consequently driven to create a new world in some fashion or another.
They can seem excentric usually and bound to be different.
With the help of a mentor (and sometimes a mentor must be cruel to help), this individual ultimately finds self transformation throught affecting a change in his or her social evironment.
Chiron sesquiquadrate Pluto might underline this!

Then he writes about Chiron in Gemini that "awareness" the keynote is for this placement. The prime existential mission is to understand the way we think in order to effect changes in our mental realities.
Natives of Chiron in Gemini may find that the Quest for selfhood leds them into teaching roles of one kind or antoher. However they are not teachers in the sense of people who merely transmit information. Rather they are teachers or role moders of new perspectives, because they believe that the solution to nay problem begins with changing the way people think about it.

Jane Fonda is an obvious examplar of Chiron in Gemini in the 11th .

When Chiron transited her natal Jupiter she first appeared on screen at age 18. In the late 1960's, as chiron transited her natal Saturn and entered the ninth house, she became active in the anti-war movement.

But as I said before, Fonda has a very complex birthchart and from that alone , she could also have become the way so different and outspoken. It does not necessarily come down to having a Chiron in Gemini i.m.o.
Her Chiron opposes her Sun and Venus in the 5th and exactly squares Saturn in the 8th (9th really at 28°), as well as Neptune in the 2nd.
So Fonda's Chiron makes also difficult aspects to the same planets as your client (except Uranus, that one is in her 10th, also typical of course of how she acted in public).

Cheers, Starlink

[EJ53]

Starlink

I like what you say here about Chiron underlining what is seen in the birthchart. (This might be how it can eventually de-skill astrology.)

And with Chiron in my 3rd house, I'm very happy about this interpretation of Chiron in the quadrants, etc.

What does your book say about Chiron in Scorpio btw?

Jeremy

I think Chiron/Mercury/Venus are likely to be behaving as one "composite" planet here. And, having the venus/uranus opposition both exact and on the Aries point makes this the key influence in the chart. This may be someone with relationship issues, who believes their problems stem from being intellectually different from others. (But, Starlink has said this already.)

Edit - Mars in Aquarius/7th forms an easy opposition with the Chiron configuration - so, perhaps an unusual partner may help the client to live with/accept this wound.

EJ:)

[flea]

EJ... I missed your reply....this has been such an active thread. Yes I agree mercury is not the way for me to heal. To much left brain thinking, I am here to have the skill of rational thought but to expand that into the intuitive realms. Interesting my late dog had chiron tightly conjunct mercury in libra.

Chiron makes sense driving you to true self expression, making peace with your true self equals healing has a ring too it.... but how possible is that in the physcial world.

Thinking that intuitive thought enables one not to require experts in the field. I like the idea of astrology not being a hidden art but something that is everyday talked about.... kind of like it is here.

At the end of 2009... by solar return chart has a stellium of chiron neptune and jupiter right near the MC... (chiron also in 10th natally) so something in my career or public image will activate my chiron wound in a way that becomes public... but corruntly healing will occur to if I am flexible enough.

Love Light Flea

[Otay]

Hi Flea, you said,

"At the end of 2009... by solar return chart has a stellium of chiron neptune and jupiter right near the MC... (chiron also in 10th natally) so something in my career or public image will activate my chiron wound in a way that becomes public... but corruntly healing will occur to if I am flexible enough."

Love Light Flea[/quote]


Consider that maybe that stellium will soften and expand your career in a way that your ideals are fulfilled without credentials. Maybe it could be an effortless being ok just the way you are, in the right place at the right time.

People and their bodies heal through their own intrinsic intelligence which is effortless and I don't think we need to torture ourselves or turn mental gymnastics, which is unnecessary and sad. We all have limits to our thinking and periodically something or someone enters our lives to expand and stretch us quite naturally. I believe you are already flexible like a flower that could
use a little rain.:39:

[Svencanz]

Now, I really like this:

"Consider that maybe that stellium will soften and expand your career in a way that your ideals are fulfilled without credentials. Maybe it could be an effortless being ok just the way you are, in the right place at the right time.

People and their bodies heal through their own intrinsic intelligence which is effortless and I don't think we need to torture ourselves or turn mental gymnastics, which is unnecessary and sad. We all have limits to our thinking and periodically something or someone enters our lives to expand and stretch us quite naturally. I believe you are already flexible like a flower that could
use a little rain."

In a way, astrologers are some of the most anal people around: we think we know better, how it is supposed to de done, and why that is.
We have the logic and the houses to prove it; and yet, we're the ones asking the questions (this forum, ahem...)
For me, I think we have to be faster.
It's like that baseball guy on the green (or whatever it is called) - he sees the ball, and he catches it - or he does not catch it. It is not a big deal.
I've done this work a long time: and for me, a reading like the one I had two weeks ago pays for ten years standing on the pitch.
When the ball comes your way, you grab it.
Now, there is no way of assessing the precessional effects of this: if a storm blows in the Amazona, and a butterfly flitters its wings...
And that's EXACTLY where we astrologers get it Wrong.
We seek linearity. (I did this reading, so Bob did NOT leave his wife, so THEIR child got a MSC in nukes..)

And yet, our ideals migh be fulfilled without us having any credentials.

Time is expanding in an exponential manner; potential is worse. Light is so much faster, branching off into side alleys; if I think I am the astrologer who sees it all, my outlook is less than bright.
If I am the keeper that's ready to catch the ball, should it arrive in my sector, I have a purpose that cannot be faulted.

And yes, I'm sorry to say: we're back to Holden Caulfield and Catcher in the Rye all over again. It is our occupational hazard.

Sven

[flea]

thanks Otay.... I like the idea of becoming by being. I am flexible about most things, but learnt to be extra careful, with my sun sq pluto.... can bring some unexpressed ridigity somtimes, but mostly I go with the energies. There will be change, and mmmmm sometimes that gets me nervous as well as curious. The gentle stretching I like.

Love Light Flea

[tsquare]

Date and locate.

Date and locate is in itself a form of trama therapy.
when a moment of pain or loss is dated and located it takes it's pressure off of the now and places it in it's proper location from which it is impinging upon now in the time stream that the being is located in.both subjectively and objectively.
it's a telapathic universe.

The incients will actuallly be found in the astral body, I am fairly sure of...but dirrect perception of such takes patiecnce and practice....
At least peole her are confronting pieces and aspects of the mind.
Traumas begged to be uncovered....spoting even the fragements can bring great relief...going further leads to more of a cure...but things can get painfull, for there is loss involved and uncofronted aspects of the subconcious that is controlling the individual on a mechanical one way bases....people in tramas are actraully sitting in the traumas, and the pains and aches of today are ofthen of yesturday...
Even by putting this tuff back into order it show expansion of that particular univerese, and an ability to manuver in such to some degree.
The closer you get to truth the more painfull it becomes at first when dealing with traumas.

It is in regresion type therapies that a person confronts the aspects of the things that they are shattered within...and by sorting the truth and unmocking the lies which keeps the traums percistent there is an erasure..
that does not mena that a person looses the data...and some do cling to the need of punishemnt to make thenm more civilised..but people have a natural tendency towards being humane without the pain..the lesson remains intact, and is in more of a concious recall then a partial concious and partial concious recall.
Regression techniqeues done properly restore life back to the being, and straitin out the mind...like the disk defrag on a computer it puts scattered files in their proper locations...

Some avoid this by keeping theirself very busy, some use drugs, tv can be a drug, books can be a drug, anything that colapses the past, present and imaginary tracks of an individual can act as a drug, some things that act like drugs really arn't that bad at all, I'm just saying many things can act like a drug..
People avoid the mind, or aspects or parts of the mind, for within it is often unpleasent sensations, unpleasent thougths or emotions, which have causes in the.......it could be many things depending upon the individual...they know what it is, even if they don't know, let them tell you, if they can...it can be hard.

It's not even the reasons that matter so much...people seem to need a major significgance for their pain so will find one.
When someone has something, and they are seemngly stuck with it, wheiter it is good or bad, doesn't matter, they will find a reason for needing to have, it or why, regardless of the real why, they will create it...for if they know the real truth if the why behind a pain of a subjective or astral viariety, it will vanish, by the sight of the truth with no VIAs's all lies unmock, what is left is what is there..
Scars can become stripes, and badges to wear, people don't always know it, or know what it would be to be without, it may even be a way to survive or an old way to survive that does them no good any longer.



A simpe awarenss drill:
Not too heavy, not regression in the ordinary sence of driving deep the past to heavy tramas or damages, but it can run that deep if given the space and know how.....but a simple drill that goes some distance in increasing personal awareness, as well as general mood level, at least in the end.


1] FUTURE

4] COMPARE 0] PRESENT 2] COMPARE
TO PAST TO FUTURE

3] PAST

The process starts in the middle with Step 0.
Then it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3 . . . around the
outer ring, til it ends in the middle at 0 again.

Here are the questions, what they do, and how they work:

================

0] WHERE ARE YOU NOW?
[Describe PRESENT scene to satisfaction.]

1] WHERE MIGHT YOU BE?
[Describe FUTURE scene to satisfaction.]

2] COMPARE THAT TO NOW.
[Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction]

3] WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?
[Describe PAST scene to satisfaction.]

4] COMPARE THAT TO NOW.
[Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction]


IT'S AS EASY AS A, B, C:
A] START WITH STEP 0
B] REPEAT STEPS 1-4 TO "KNOW"(to where you are at know on that aspect or topic..you just simply know)
Most people's awareness is much like a television set displaying
a station selected by a remote control . . . in someone else's hands.
They are totally hypnotized by whatever program, picture, valence,
identity, advertisement, idea, etc. is currently displayed on screen.
They compulsively identify with whatever that is as "themselves".

When the picture flips to a different channel, it's still "them," as far
as they are concerned . . . and they have *NO* awareness that it's
actually a different channel and program. They can only duplicate
or comprehend one viewpoint at a time, and it's totally beyond their
awareness that they were just spouting a totally different party line.

The constant discipline of comparing builds the ability to view
two viewpoints, pictures, etc., at the same time. This forces
them OUT of the picture they have been IN, and gets them to
adopt the viewpoint of the being who is looking AT the pictures.
This DIFFERENTIATES them from the pictures they have been
compulsively dramatizing, and are now self-determinedly viewing.

If your attention is on only one item, you can interiorize into it
and BE it. When they confront two pictures and compare, it is
very clear that they are neither one, but the viewer of pictures.

This is an enormously important spiritual capacity to develop.
It builds enormous self-awareness of the Seeker as the creator
of his own universe, and greatly enhances his ability to knowingly
create himself and his future. This simple ability is far beyond the
realm of most individuals...it's too simple to be believed, people have trouble with that aspect of it.

While doing this , you will normally see many different kinds of weird
mental phenomena, known variously in different disciplines by many
arbitrary terms, appear with a vengeance . . . and disappear again with
no fancy complex rigid process commands, no chains of earlier similar
incidents, no tricky diagnosis or evaluation of what is wrong, or what
to do, no hypnotic suggestions, and no Seeker attention on the Witness
or the Process. It's simple, smooth, often easy, and incredibly effective.

Just describe similarities and differences as long as you have
interest. It might be a few words. It might be many minutes of analysis
and cognitions. You don't have to worry about geting all of it. If If you have more attention on it your attention will go back to it, and you can simply look at it again on the next merry
(or not so) go-round. You do NOT have to forcefull controll you attention and
follow the comands exactly on when to think about what, and when to stop thinking about it.


When you are satisfied you have seen what you want to . . . you move on.

At the very lest this could be tucked away for a time when you are alone and can atempt to tackle a wound, or at least take of some of the steam it contains....it's not too heavy not too light, very simple, but can have extrodinary effects.
It might be perfect for the Chiron wound.



Edit:

If the Seeker is heavily in DENIAL or DISASSOCIATION, it will
start to build CONNECTIONS between past, present, and future.
If the Seeker is in IDENTIFICATION, comparing past and future to
present separates them. It creates awareness of similarities and
differences . . . a basic definition of sanity. It pulls the past out
of the present, and lets it go to where it should be . . . back into the
past. It separates the Seeker more and more from the past into a
clearer and more sharply defined and understood present time.

The constant comparing to "where he is now" keeps bringing him
into the present. The entire process works as a "Havingness"
process, giving him an entire universe to have. The net effect of
this is to help him SEE THE PRESENT, MORE CLEARLY, AS IT *IS*.
This allows him to actually change his present, with a new thought.



BUMPS IN THE ROAD

The ONLY thing I have ever seen go "wrong" using this excersise is that it stirs
up "stuff" from the past and the Seeker starts to *UNKNOWINGLY*
DRAMATIZE that stuff. Of course, it is SUPPOSED to do that, but some
times it turns on too hard. This can manifest in many different ways:
protest, objections, complaints, criticism of the Witness, computations
of "this is stupid", "isn't working", "won't work", "can't work," ANY kind
of misemotion, and so forth. This can interfere with DOING the process
and STOP the session if the Witness does not SEE what is happening
and correct it by simply having the Seeker LOOK at what is going on.

The major handle is simply to SEE that "where the Seeker IS NOW"
is NO LONGER where he WAS when he started the session. The
process itself has moved something else in, or moved him to a
different place [take your pick of wordings for the same event].
You simply need to IDENTIFY where that new [old] place, feeling,
computation, effort, intention, identity or so forth . . . IS *NOW*.



So yeah...it stirs up Karma from the unconciousness.
Taking some of what is already being stired up from transits, and puting it thorugh this type of process will probably uncover trama at it's root.
I should warn that this is not easy stuff, and can get bumpy, with dishcharges of emotion, and such, and if left unhandled or unfinished durring certain times, when you know something is there, is like bieng a wwalking time bomb.....
But durring transits people do that anyway....people are always acting out there subconcious mind on others..that is unless they are completly unconcious, or without one....many supress all triggers, therfore bury that which seeks to come up to be handled or dealt with.....it is better to take it into meditation or session then take it out on an enviroment, or rcreate enemies from ones own unconcious motivations....seeing people as things you mabie are yourself.(A trick for that....when confronted with an aspect of another individual that you do not like, a good question to ask is when have you done that yourself, Ex: he's a thirving liar...when have you doen that yourself?..there are thiving loairs..but being extremely upset about such, when not much related to you, canindicate extroversion on another, or it can simply be there is a thieving laiar about...it is worth finding out for oneself....by spoting the time and getting it off ones chest one doesnot extrovert that quality on others, and one sees what is, it doenst mean there wont be any more thieving liars, it means youll stop making them from your subconcious onto othres...you'll see them as is without the shadowy veil)
This raises stuff from the unconciousness and raises awareness....so, if that is hapenening durrign a transit, then one has the possibility with this, to take it to it's root, or where ever it goes, taking of pieces of the conflicting forces one at a time little by little gaining free awareness as oe goes.

I do this when i have time and am alone for some time.....I have also found that even taking a dream up with it bring upon some serious insights...it is interesting to run dorring that stage where one is half asleep and half awake in the morning right aftre a dream...I have had some very interesting realisations while doing such, on the dream and it's place in the future...some odd phenomenon.


I don't have time to clean this up, so am posting it quickly.
This may be my last post for some time. I have been saying that off and on lately but somehow keep squeezing more time in, but that looks like it is about to come to a close, much has come up lately that needs my attention elsewhere, but i wanted to put something up for the unhealable, or, "unhealable" chiron wound, even if it's a bit messy, if it's too messy or frowned upon i'll pull it...this excersise, or process may help to take the edges off the beast, if one is creative with it's application.
It very much is a meditational tool, and I have found it usefull for some time in spotting some of the gunk I unknowingly sit in....it can be hard to leave that gunk for it becomes comfterable...
HTerea re times I have used this and realised how stupid I have been, how unaware...and that has been painfull at first...it has left me astonished, awestruck and slightly terrified at tiems, just to realise how low, andhow asleep I was or have been...at itmes it can make moe wonder how far i have to go....
This process or excersise never seems to run out fully..there is always something more..and i must say it speeds up ones karma, so mabie there should be a warning on that.....it brings things up that are already there that are hiding from one........that should be known, that if you leave something lie in the middle of something it can poke at you for a day ro 2.
If you are absoolutely crazy or simply having a very hard time, it may not be a good idea to try this untill your feeling stable.....
I have always found it odd that techniques desighned to increase awareness or sanity actually came with warnings not to use them if you were neither aware or sane...(laugh) but it is better to lean things when stable....the excersise helps to increses stability, but can also turn on instabiity........but the idea is to make it up and through the messy stuff with awareness that lies above not below it.
There is a differnece between the state of calm and light, and calm and heavy, but there are emotions in between as well as thoguhts.
I thik it is better to put this here then not so be it.

I am feeling slightly chicken in posting this, but it's just an idea on how to poke at this wound and mabie cleen it up, if one chooses, there may be better ideas or ways but I have found this to work for many different things..don't fear being creative.
Use at your own discression, don't blame me if the karma bug bites you.
If your looking at the above line and saying, "gezz sounds dangerous, or complicated" well you arn't that afraid of your mind are you?
It can open things up..that's what it's supposed to do..that's how one becomes more aware of how their past has effected their present and how their present is used o modify their future, it's for reorientation, and I find it better to reorient yourself if possible, after all, it's your life, you have been warned, but remember if you like, it's your mind.
What may be hest is to simply take up what you already have you attention on and start there...it's much like free asociation.
Standing at a present and viewing the past and where one is going is supposed to be a daily activity anyway...iits called thought or thought orientation, mabie towars a goal or a vcomon goal(at the least you may recall a few you had forgotten in the weight of too much), as well as self analysis or past analysis toward the direction of a present or a future in your creation..If you are having that much trouble with this or self actualisation, seek a professional, or some help elsewhere I'm just posting a process..


Tsquare
"There are always a few, better endowed than others, who feel the
weight of the yoke and cannot restrain themselves from attempting to
shake it off: these are the men who never become tamed under subjection.
These are in fact the men who, possessed of clear minds and
far-sighted spirit, are not satisfied, like the brutish mass, to see
only what is at their feet,but rather look about them, behind and
before, and even recall the things of the past in order to judge
those of the future, and compare both with their present condition.
These are the ones who, having good minds of their own, have
further trained them by study and learning. Even if liberty had
entirely perished from the earth, such men would invent it. For
them slavery has no satisfactions, no matter how well disguised."

From: "Discours de la Servitude Volontaire"
Written By: Éttiene de la Boétie, age 22, in 1552, while a
student at the University of Orleans, France
Translated by: Harry Kurz

=============================

[Wilmingtonian]

Does Chiron refer to one, specific wound you suffer in your life or does it indicate how you feel and assimilate all emotional wounds?

Just wondering...

[EJ53]

Does Chiron refer to one, specific wound you suffer in your life or does it indicate how you feel and assimilate all emotional wounds?

Just wondering...

A reliable answer to this will emerge only when a statistically significant number of people have (correctly) identified their Chiron wound - and we are currently a long way from that.

However, my guess is one specific wound - whose severity is determined by the cumulative effects/assimilation of all related emotional events.

I also think everybody's wound will be "the realisation that they have denied their individuality in some way". But each wound may appear to be different because no two people are the same, and nor will be the pressures upon them that result in denial. (And that leads me to believe Chiron is a slow moving personal planet rather than "generational" - so, its sign is as important as its house.)

EJ

[Looking to Jupiter]

Does Chiron refer to one, specific wound you suffer in your life or does it indicate how you feel and assimilate all emotional wounds?

Just wondering...

for me the one main wound I have had in my life, has been the thing that has set the pattern for dealing with all the minor wounds ive encountered since...its like it has set the benchmark for what my soul needs to deal with in this life....
As much as most of my wounds in day to day life are not life changing, they do mimic that original wound so much...I kind of think that if you do find a way to deal with the biggest wound we have, then you've kind of solved them all....
.........something to strive for anyway:rolleyes::D

[doublecrossed fish]

Try thinking about Chiron representing a wound that we enter this incarnation with. And, that wound has a reason for existing. What usually moves us to look beyond our mundane existence? Pain of some sort.

Saturn represents the outer border of our mundane existence. It's the last planet we can see with the naked eye. We need help to see beyond Saturn. And that's where Chiron is situated, in the asteroid belt between Saturn and Uranus. It acts as a bridge between our mundane world and the metaphysical. When we;re in pain we ask for help from spirit. This is exactly Chiron's meaning. It's wound is not to be healed, but to be experienced as a unique impetus that connects us with what lies beyond our duality, with the transpersonal energies represented by the outer planets.

Think of Helen Keller. Her inability to see, hear nor talk was like a Chiron wound. She could and did experience it as a victim. She couldn't heal it. Nor SHOULD she have tried. She USED it to experience some form of transcendence thanks to a very intense and unique situation. She could not have experienced what she did without going through her wound.

What we heal is our "split", our disconection with spirit. And, we do it through the wound. The wound is a gift. Use it as a bridge.

Barbara Hand Clow elaborates this viewpoint in her book about Chiron.

[starlink]

Doublecrossed Fish (DF next time!), you are presenting us with a very understandable way of using Chiron. I have read so many different interpretations from healing to "the quest" and what not, that I still did not feel entirely comfortable with each one of them. This description however, does give a very nice way of looking at the workings (or the reason for) Chiron in our chart. Thank you for bringing this up. Must have a look at Barbara's book!

Cheers, Starlink

[doublecrossed fish]

Thanks, Starlink. But, the idea comes from Ms. Clow. It's very important to me because my Chiron is in Aquarius EXACTLY one degree before my MC. I think every astrologer gravitates to certain planets or signs because of some personal resonance with them. Jeffrey Green has Pluto and he uses it as a jumping off point. And, I tend to use Chiron and Uranus this way. The wound and the trauma. Because my Chiron is in Uranus' sign, I struggled to differentiate between the wound and trauma. Eventually, I've come to the conclusion about Chiron that I elaborated, that we don't heal the wound, but use it as a bridge. And, with Uranus I've come to see it as lightning which can enliven and refresh whatever it moves through with relatively little resistance, yet destroy what does resist. So, Uranus only represents trauma when it's energies are resisted, otherwise, it produces much needed change.

I like to think of a hot, muggy day and how oppresive it feels as Capricornian. Suddenly, a storm comes. First comes the lightning (Aquarius, the water bearer) followed by the rain (Pisces, the water itself). And, if you continue this, isn't there a growth spurt (Aries) similar to the springtime spurt, right after a rainfall?!

[EJ53]

I like to think of a hot, muggy day and how oppresive it feels as Capricornian. Suddenly, a storm comes. First comes the lightning (Aquarius, the water bearer) followed by the rain (Pisces, the water itself). And, if you continue this, isn't there a growth spurt (Aries) similar to the springtime spurt, right after a rainfall?!

Excellent analogy, DF. I like it very much.

EJ:)

[starlink]

Hi DF! Thanks for your next post as well and as EJ (Hi EJ, how's life?) also mentioned, very good analogy. About resisting Uranus and therefore creating pain for yourself, I could not agree more. Same goes for Pluto actually. Just let go, dont hold onto things which have no meaning nor use in your life anymore. If you do that, you also feel like re-born afterwards!

Cheers, Starlink

[EJ53]

..Hi EJ, how's life?.....Pluto...dont hold onto things....(and you will).... feel like re-born afterwards!

Hi Star,

I had "minor" surgery on 3rd Sept - "letting go of something inside myself", as Pluto transitted my natal Uranus yet again. The operation went without a hitch, but I'm still recovering from the effects of the general anaesthetic and painkillers two months later. Re-born yes - but I'd forgotten how uncomfortable birth can be.

Best wishes and hope you are well.

EJ:)

[starlink]

Yes EJ, I know all about it. Anastetics is no small thing. It can stay in your system for ages, as do painkillers of course. Well, I hope you will soon be "your good old self" again.:) Take good care!
Starlink

[doublecrossed fish]

Hi folks,

Since I'm on a roll (Uranian inspiration!), I want to say a few off-the-wall things about Chiron/Aquarius/Pluto and more. Let's see how long this gets!

I agree with Starlink about Pluto being added to the Chiron/Uranus, wound/trauma comparison. Pluto is the third energy that I resonate with since my MNN is in the 8th, Saturn is in Scorpio in my 6th and Scorpio is my Desc.

First of all, the Chiron wound is always there and colors all of our actions and experiences to varying degrees. Uranus is experienced suddenly and seemingly out of nowhere. It is usually shocking. But, Pluto is very slow acting. Instead of coming from out of the blue, it comes from out of the dark. We experience Pluto very differently, especially physically. Because of the Scorpio/Taurus axis, Pluto is usually met with Taurean resistance.

When I work with clients, I show them ways to physically re-train their autonomic nervous systems to be able to accept a "sudden shock" as a welcome experience, the "taking a hit as a gift" concept I belive I already mentioned. That is designed to handle the Uranian energy.

But, how do you approach Pluto physically? I've been experimenting with something Taurean and trying to combine it with the remainder of the water triad, Piscean understanding and Cancerian nurturance. I suspect that my Taurus/Scorpio nodes are at work here. And, my Grand Trine in water. I like to look at polarities as needing integration and not balance. So, while the intense transformative process is seemingly antithetical to pleasure, it doesn't have to be. What if we approached transformation through pleasure, combining Scorpio and Taurus energies?

I've been using breathwork as a vehicle to both bring into consciousness and move out "stuck" energy. This is what occurs in transformation, the stuck energy is moved. Lately, I've tried to work with people who use sound to facilitate this process. Didjeridoo, crystal bowls and healing gong are three types of sound that I've played with. Each has their strengths. The Didj and gong can be dissonant and break free stuck energy. The bowls are more harmonious and help move the energy once it's been loosened. Combine them all and you have a potent tool for experiencing Plutonian transformation. You train the physical body to reach deep into it's core, physically and emotionally, and move what's stuck. It counters the automatic, autonomic reaction of resistance.

So, we have the outer planets involved here. Uranus (breath), Neptune (faith) and it's infantile expression, the Moon (nurturance), plus it's mundane expression in Venus (Taurean pleasure) and Pluto (transformation).

And, it just so happens that we have had Chiron and Neptune conjunct the MNN in Aquarius for more than two months now. I see that as the whole world needing to move forward (MNN) toward some unexpected and revolutionary changes (Aquarius) that bring us an experience of our collective wound (Chiron in Aquarius) and it's all experienced as incredibly confusing (Neptune). The Solar Eclipse in Leo brought out the urge to take a stand, but it opposed the MNN/Neptune/Chiron conjunction. Self vs non-self! And, of course, we're being presented with an opportunity to see this in a unified way instead of as a paradox.

If you add to this the fact that there has been a seven-series aspect between Pluto and Neptune since 2006 and which will continue for another year, and which is made even more profound with Pluto conjunct the galactic center, you get quite an extraordinary picture. It's as if we're being asked to go beyond our rationality to align ourselves with the energy from the center of the galaxy. A cosmic download and it can't be understood rationally. And, of course, Chiron is conjunct Neptune. And, when Pluto moves into Capricorn, we'll have all of the transpersonal planets in the last three signs. Pretty amazing time we're living in.

Finally, just to connect a few loose ends, what do you think we need at a time like this? I think it's practices that facilitate experiencing these energies in a receptive, co-operative way. That's why I'm being moved to work with breath and sound. Anyone else have any inspired ideas about this?

[EJ53]

It's as if we're being asked to go beyond our rationality to align ourselves with the energy from the center of the galaxy. A cosmic download and it can't be understood rationally.

In the late 80s/early 90s, various psychics/trance mediums published books in which they claimed to have had this message "channelled" to them from the spirit world and/or apparently non-human sources. Most presented a common theme - the "vibration" of the human race would soon be raised to understand/remember inherent abilities that are beyond the comprehension of the rational mind. And those who tried to understand rationally what was coming would be "destroyed"/unable to cope, as the only way to "survive"/cope would be to accept/embrace the changes without questioning them. In effect, we were about to go over Niagara Falls in a barrel - so, better to pray rather than attempt to influence the outcome ourselves.

At the time, I found these books/messages both incredible and amusing - but much has changed since then, including the things I believe and/or laugh at.

Praying for a sound barrel, yet nervously looking forward to the ride.

EJ:)

[Night Sky]

In the late 80s/early 90s, various psychics/trance mediums published books in which they claimed to have had this message "channelled" to them from the spirit world and/or apparently non-human sources. Most presented a common theme - the "vibration" of the human race would soon be raised to understand/remember inherent abilities that are beyond the comprehension of the rational mind. And those who tried to understand rationally what was coming would be "destroyed"/unable to cope, as the only way to "survive"/cope would be to accept/embrace the changes without questioning them. In effect, we were about to go over Niagara Falls in a barrel - so, better to pray rather than attempt to influence the outcome ourselves.

At the time, I found these books/messages both incredible and amusing - but much has changed since then, including the things I believe and/or laugh at.

Praying for a sound barrel, yet nervously looking forward to the ride.

EJ:)


I join you on that.... the world is about to change... but we should go with the flow... Neptune style...:D;)

[doublecrossed fish]

Yes, I remember that stuff, and I also thought it was "nuts". I still think it is! But, what I've noticed over the years is that most people tune into the flow of evolution in distorted ways. The Armageddon crowd is sensing the ends of some huge cycles, but their interpretation is "nuts". And, again, the problem is that we humans try to wrap our minds around things we're not ready to really understand. So, what we come up with IS "nuts"! It's a form of mind stretching taken too seriously and too literally.

[nejispirit]

Ah, this is a thread I should have posted at before;

I have two big configurations in my natal, 2 yods with my Chiron in it:

1) Gemini Chiron (10th) apex + Scorpio Pluto (3rd) & Cappy Neptune (4th) for the base
2) Pluto Scorpio (3rd) apex + Aries Sun (8th) & Gemini Chiron (10) for the base

I know what the first yod is all about, but the second one I only recently discovered and have not quite figured out it's purpose yet; I am no expert to Chirons and have only read bits and pieces of it- but I can say that when it comes to my "public image" I can have great anxiety, also I can have anxiety when it comes to communication, which fits since Gemini is ruled by Mercury.

[EJ53]

...Pluto Scorpio (3rd) apex + Aries Sun (8th) & Gemini Chiron (10) for the base....when it comes to my "public image" I can have great anxiety, also I can have anxiety when it comes to communication, which fits since Gemini is ruled by Mercury.

In his book "Chiron", Martin Lass gives the following example of this planet in Gemini/10th :-

...might express as the wound of feeling intellectually stupid, ignorant and/or unrecognised - expressed in a career choice that is either physically and/or emotionally based but does not require too much thinking. Alternatively, it might be that our feeling of not being a good communicator or of being inept in social circumstances might be most prominently expressed in our chosen career, such as acting or politics (eg. Woody Allen).

So, taking Sun in Aries/8th as being valued by others for our self-expression/openness, we can see how overcoming this wound might lead to Pluto in Scorpio/3rd as being about transforming the power/intensity/impact of our communications.

EJ:)

[nejispirit]

In his book "Chiron", Martin Lass gives the following example of this planet in Gemini/10th :-



So, taking Sun in Aries/8th as being valued by others for our self-expression/openness, we can see how overcoming this wound might lead to Pluto in Scorpio/3rd as being about transforming the power/intensity/impact of our communications.

EJ:)
Ooh, thanks! Sounds like another Astrology book I need to purchase ;); actually yes, the communication anxieties can be horrific- all my life I have had fears of coming across as stupid/inept/someone who does not know what she is talking, I still struggle with it but it has gotten better thankfully :cool:.

I actually am working to become a field research psychologist, so not of one that would allow me *not* to face my fears; I love to research (I find that it is suiting for my rising, Virgo) and I want to share with others what I find out in the world and such, it is quite fascinating to me.

Ah yes, my Pluto in the 3rd, I think I am coming closer and closer to better understanding and dealing with this *wound* in a way that will bring me closer to "peace" so to speak. Or at least, better peace of mind with my Chiron.

Interesting enough, I have Gemini Chiron conj Gemini MC, so I know I am somehow going to share with the world the outcome of this struggle in my life (other things I have not mentioned, etc) and how they can use their struggles for their benefit, whether it be helping others in a medical field, or psychology, or teaching, or whatever.

[C1]

Chiron teachers and learners:

Thank you all (too many to list!)

Suddenly Chiron came out of hiding in my 12th at 8 degrees Sag (opposite Mercury). Before that, no planets or centaurs or plutoids occupied 10th, 11th or 12th houses in my chart.

Then the teacher came! On 12/12/05 (just 3 and 1/3 months after Katrina)
Chiron was opposite the mp of my natal Uranus 29 degrees Gemini in 7th and my natal Saturn 29 degrees Leo in 9th (Koch) house.

Then my 2nd Saturn return a couple years ago.

Now a present moment of universal soul evolution on sacred Earth.

Dear Chiron, like all of us, was injured (intentionally or not) by adults (usually parents) in early childhood (hated, reviled, abandoned, ignored, ridiculed, some children were beaten, assaulted; some caught up in years of war).

Thanks everyone for your insights about time, about not resisting the truth.

I agree we each have an individual, unique soul and hidden in the unconscious is a gem. And as we become self-aware as Earthlings, living in
the conscious Earth dimension, each with a unique gift, we continue on our
unique journeys to know ourselves.

Yes. This Chiron thread is weaving together many dimensions. As we learn
to respect our Self, our psyche, our soul and body we choose to
think, eat, believe ourselves into the bright new day, every day.

Sea one.
See one.
C one.

I was led here today and I spent time reading through the entire history of this delicate thread, thank you all! BTW starlink (my birthday is 5/5!)

[swanlimbus]

F-16 Take-Off with full afterburner (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1UXU2jt5nEo&feature=related)

big brother is stopping me talking to julia

Re: New Moon September 29 2008 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=100491#post100491)

you should refrain from censoring my private messages Radu

300 - Sway (the roof is on fire) (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pfWIKf0IfgA)

[GeminiSagRising]

In my chart I have Chiron in Gemini and I am also a Gemini Sun... I'm confused as to what this would mean... I'm very well spoken and I love to read, write, and express myself, but I'm not always good at fitting in...

[dub.tribe]

This is an amazing thread! It's too time consuming to catch up and read every post carefully, but I enjoyed what I've managed to read so far.



In the 9th, like Julie's Chiron, I have had seen several times a great disappointment in oneself, even shame, to not having been able to get a degree (university) in some subject, and especially the first time the person failed, it puts a stamp on his or her self-esteem. This "failure" goes like a red tape through their lives and influences lots of decisions and often the person decides to really start developing that area to compensate for the "wound", like doing all sorts of studies where he/she does succeed and indeed often they then also want to teach others what they have learned.

Starlink, you opened my eyes with this post. I never paid attention to Chiron in my chart before, and I had trouble astrologically explaining my attitude towards education. So I just have to share this revelation excitement :)

My Chiron is in 9th house in Taurus 1) conjunct MC 2) it's the apex of a t-square (square Moon in 12th and Venus in 6th) 3) square nodes

To make a long story short: I think all my emotional struggles are somehow related to the need for high university degrees. I did a lot so far but still haven't gotten any satisfaction and I feel very insecure. There is a lot more to learn and the academia is the only place I can see myself in the future. My driving force is a need for creating more stimulating artistic environments (probably because of aspects to Taurus MC, Moon and Venus) but teaching also helps healing this particular Chiron "wound".

I'm also very curious to see how this placement affects my attitudes towards religion in the future...

Thanks everybody for great posts!

[cathywh]

Hi everyone, I am late coming to this thread, was one week totally occupied with family matters:
I like what Liz Green has written on the topic Chiron

In my experience, whereever Chiron is found in the chart, we find the most sensitive and difficult area of our life. In the 9th, like Julie's Chiron, I have had seen several times a great disappointment in oneself, even shame, to not having been able to get a degree (university) in some subject, and especially the first time the person failed, it puts a stamp on his or her self-esteem. This "failure" goes like a red tape through their lives and influences lots of decisions and often the person decides to really start developing that area to compensate for the "wound", like doing all sorts of studies where he/she does succeed and indeed often they then also want to teach others what they have learned.

Cheers, Starlink

I am amazed. Been searching for my 9th house meaning and this describes it to the T. Thanks a tonne.

I have Taurus Chiron in 9H almost conjunct Vertex, POF and BML. I have been struggling to understand what it means. Imagine what, I had the same issue - I was considered to be brilliant as child but beyond my undergrad degree I could not move forward. As a compensation, now I have spent a fortune to get a postgrad, this rankled in my heart and brain till I completed it. I used to compare my progress in career with lesser intelligent peers and feel bad I lack a higher degree. Finally did it, but not to much avail so late in life. I am now considering teaching at the same place I have pursued my postgrad.

Chiron is in double T Sq with 5H Moon (Cap) at apex opposing Uranus Conj Venus (Sco) in 3H and another with Mars (Lib) in 2H. All along I was trying to understand thru aspects than placement.

Thanks for opening my eyes here.

What does Chiron in Aries 8H mean? Can you help me with this too.

[cassanra]

I just noticed my chiron return happens in 2010. I had not realized I was coming full circle! Will the squares and oppositions tell me what I can look forward too? Can anyone share their chiron return.
Natal Chiron is at 27 degrees in Aquarious on the 12th cusp. Aquarious, from what I read, is the wound from the collective? the fight against the group or unwillingness to go with the group? And teh 12th is the collective wound?
At the opposition, I had just moved to another state with my new husband, my 1 year old son and was living with my mother-in-law(I would not recommned that). I was yet again cut off from my known world and began this soul searching which lead to my baptisim (complete submerssion). I remember feeling this need somehow to start my life over free of some inner deamon.
At the square my father was accused of molesting my 3 year old daughter I fought a long battle with social workers, attornies 1200 miles away (chiron was conjunct jupiter in the 8th) and eventually the case was dropped. This was in the middle of my husband and I's separation with him stirring the pot.
Can this be the fight against the collective? social workers and relgious salvation? I guess so....in one way and in another.
Would the return be something again reflecting the principles of the aqurious/12th theme would I simply do another return chart?

[EJ53]

...What does Chiron in Aries 8H mean? Can you help me with this too.

Chiron in Aries indicates issues with self-image. These will affect 8th house events. For example, the person may be afraid of being assertive (Aries) - so having too much respect for the values of others.

...Can anyone share their chiron return.

1. Born with Chiron in Scorpio/3rd - "deep-seated scorpio fear of being manipulated, affecting how I communicate (3rd house).

2. First Chiron square at age 12 - death of grandmother who (with chiron hindsight) was the only "figure of authority" that never attempted to manipulate me. Also, first term in Seconday Education - when (with chiron hindsight) the main objective was to make me conform (by manipulation).

3. Chiron opposition at 35 - A time of considerable pressure by "my society" to make me conform (by manipulation), referred to elsewhere on this thread.

4. Second Chiron square at 45 - Throughout the six months prior to her death through cancer, I became aware for the first time of how my mother was manipulating me (and had always done so).

5. Chiron Return at 50 - This was when I began to reflect upon how my resistance to "being manipulated" by others had affected my life. But, I'm still working on this at 60.

..Would the return be something again reflecting the principles of the aqurious/12th theme would I simply do another return chart?

I'd expect it to be a time when you begin to understand how your deep-seated Chiron fear affects your behaviour, and how that behaviour has produced problems in your life. This may be triggered by a specific event or, as in my case, by a "middle-aged" relection of your life so far.

EJ:)

[blueheron]

In my chart I have Chiron in Gemini and I am also a Gemini Sun... I'm confused as to what this would mean... I'm very well spoken and I love to read, write, and express myself, but I'm not always good at fitting in...

One factor about not fitting in would correspond with Uranus in the 1st, on the Asc.

[blueheron]

Great post, and great thread. Interesting. I haven't looked much at chiron either, (old school Western, and very much into vedic.) But this is fascinating.

Chiron would seem to correspond with the vedic concept of the "bhadaka" planet, which is complicated to find. It's the "kicker" of the chart.

So interesting... thanks for the posting.

[cathywh]

Chiron in Aries indicates issues with self-image. These will affect 8th house events. For example, the person may be afraid of being assertive (Aries) - so having too much respect for the values of others.

EJ:)
You are right, bang on!

Not just too much respect for values of others but even defining life's values based on others perceptions, he cannot judge on his own was my complaint all along. Now I know why it is.

How would you interpret if in same chart the NN is in same house but different sign, Pisces 8H? It redoubles the effect or as it is Pisces now I say about spiritual matters?

[EJ53]

...Now I know why it is.

The semantics are important here so (being pedantic), you know what it is (Chiron in Aries/8th) and how it influences him (too much respect for the values of others) - but only he can know why it is (the painful childhood experiences which are now logged in his subconscious). Thus, only he can resolve the problem - by reviewing those experiences with adult eyes.

How would you interpret if in same chart the NN is in same house but different sign, Pisces 8H?

(Assuming the orb is too wide to be a conjunction) North Node in Pisces/8th is about serving others selflessly and learning to respect their values as he respects his own. So, it's those last 4 words that need attention - since the true servant considers himself the equal of those he serves (which Christ demonstrated by washing the feet of his disciples). Thus, he cannot achieve the NN purpose without overcoming his Chiron wound.

And, if the NN and Chiron are conjunct, he will help others to overcome their own Chiron wound if/when he has overcome his own - so, maybe that is the selfless NN service he is here to provide.

EJ:)

[cathywh]

(Assuming the orb is too wide to be a conjunction) North Node in Pisces/8th is about serving others selflessly and learning to respect their values as he respects his own. So, it's those last 4 words that need attention - since the true servant considers himself the equal of those he serves (which Christ demonstrated by washing the feet of his disciples). Thus, he cannot achieve the NN purpose without overcoming his Chiron wound.

And, if the NN and Chiron are conjunct, he will help others to overcome their own Chiron wound if/when he has overcome his own - so, maybe that is the selfless NN service he is here to provide.

EJ:)

Thanks a million!

But him learning to be selfless?!!! That's impossible I imagine, in this life time - selfishness is his life blood (Scorpio Sun and Mercury?) May be he will have to reincarnate again in this world to become selfless and serve others. :D

This is quite interesting and I believe it fits the context perfectly - but are these two not contradictory (Chiron and NN interpretations)?

[blueheron]

Healing Chiron's wounds...

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll204/yanaar/meditating-1.jpg

[EJ53]

...but are these two not contradictory (Chiron and NN interpretations)?

As Blueheron indicates, meditation and reflection are the key to change. And, often events/circumstances in life force such reflection if we fail to do it voluntarily.

His Chiron/NN are in fact complementary, as he cannot achieve the latter without addressing the former. So, maybe his values/beliefs will be changed by future events/circumstances in his life.

EJ:)

[cathywh]

As Blueheron indicates, meditation and reflection are the key to change. And, often events/circumstances in life force such reflection if we fail to do it voluntarily.

His Chiron/NN are in fact complementary, as he cannot achieve the latter without addressing the former. So, maybe his values/beliefs will be changed by future events/circumstances in his life.

EJ:)

I think it is circumstances, you are so right! 8H also corresponds to other people's money, right? Chiron / NN in 8H can also be learning to respect others values thru circumstances like misuse of others money? :) That fits perfect at this moment in his life.

[R4VEN]

I think it is circumstances, you are so right! 8H also corresponds to other people's money, right? Chiron / NN in 8H can also be learning to respect others values thru circumstances like misuse of others money? :) That fits perfect at this moment in his life.
Realise, also, that Chiron in the 8th will uncover issues to do with (and to quote Barbara Hand Clow from her (amazingly wonderful) book on Chiron:
a gigantic karmic crisis over Plutonian issues (sex/death/money/power), and since learning is always experiential, the results are murky and very traumatic for everyone around the native. These individuals are the most dangerous to self and others when they have no power of their own......................
The resolved and high side of this position is an absolute mastery over desire resulting in a deep and essential knowing about the motives of others.

As I've experienced it with myself and others, one of the most significant steps in working successfully with Chiron wounds is to be able to clearly name them.

[R4VEN]

I just noticed my chiron return happens in 2010. I had not realized I was coming full circle! Will the squares and oppositions tell me what I can look forward too? Can anyone share their chiron return.
Natal Chiron is at 27 degrees in Aquarious on the 12th cusp. Aquarious, from what I read, is the wound from the collective? the fight against the group or unwillingness to go with the group? And teh 12th is the collective wound?

EJ53 shared a bit of what she experienced at her Chiron return, and I'll just throw my cap in the ring also.

Without my Chiron return @ around age 50 I doubt very much if I'd still be here. For me (Chiron in Scorpio in the 10th, with a handful of quite heavy aspects, including a square with Pluto - great!) the first square was too early in life, and the wounds became deeply internalised in my physical body (Chiron also squares my natal Saturn).

My experience of the Chiron return was that every major wound sat up in front of me, and for the first time I was able to view them as an adult, and not as the hurt person I'd been. It was like someone removed my blinkers, and I was able to at last get angry and direct this in a healthy way. My mother died just before my return began, and that also freed me up somewhat, since she'd been an agent of some deep wounding early in my life. With some of the money I received after her death I paid for some heavy-duty healing sessions which allowed me to release a gut-load of grief and anger - such an irony that her $$ freed me to heal wounds she'd passed on to me from her own childhood!

Barbara Hand Clow's writing suggests that Chiron in Aquarius people have a wound around connecting their physical selves with their higher consciousness - Chiron can provide the ultimate bridge between the body (Saturn) and higher consciousness (Uranus). The wound can manifest in many ways, but this generation of people come in with great ideas and dreams, but can have difficulty in bringing these ideas and dreams into some kind of physical form. In other words, Ch. in Aqu. people feel `not really here' until they learn how to connect ideas with the physical realm. What I've heard from this generation has been a collective cry of "I don't know what I'm meant to be doing," or "Why am I here? There must be a reason, otherwise I wouldn't have been born."

And to sum up, I find the Chiron Return to be something to celebrate, an opportunity to make major amends to yourself.

[R4VEN]

Well, I'm not sure what planet I have been on for the past few days, but it wasn't Earth!!

I took a look back through the posts on this thread early in June 2008, and as a result have had what can only be called an epiphany!!!! Thanks, EJ53, Starlink & Jeremy - your questions and answers re the nature of Chiron wounds has helped me to recognise some essential things, and in the following order:
I'm currently bang smack in the middle of my 1st Chiron square since my Chiron return (am I blind or what?) Chiron is currently 18 deg Aquarius, while my natal Chiron is 18 deg Scorpio.
What I've felt were difficult personal circumstances in my life currently, with males close to me being so awful to me!!!!! have actually been the revisiting of the Original Wound - which I thought/believed to be childhood bullying by my brothers - wrong! - they were not the first................
And now to name my original wound - it was my sense of being bullied by the Dr who delivered me @ birth - which involved both induction and forceps - after I'd already `decided' that this life was obviously going to be too hard for me, and I'd rather check out, thankyou.
My Chiron/Saturn natal square probably describes the paternalistic/manipulative (at least, in my opinion) role the Dr took, rather than anything much to do with my own father, and the Chiron/Pluto square describes the continual struggle I have had to stay on the planet. My private thought is always, `Well, I'll see how tomorrow turns out, and if it's OK, I'll stay' - a continuing repetition of the pre-birth decision.So, thanks - in particular EJ53, cos I reckon we're close in age, and your revelations about your own Chiron issues back in June have hugely helped me today. But thanks to all who have debated the issue of the nature of Chiron wounds and do we heal them or what? For me, to clearly name them is a first necessary step.

And to finish this post, I've found this Chiron square a whole lot harder than my Chiron return @ 50. Back at 49-50 I was prepared for it, had done my reading about it, and found it to be cathartic and freeing. This square just crept up on me, and I obviously wasn't paying attention, so I was resisting what it was trying to get me to do.

[EJ53]

...EJ53....I reckon we're close in age, and your revelations about your own Chiron issues back in June have hugely helped me today. But thanks to all who have debated the issue of the nature of Chiron wounds and do we heal them or what? For me, to clearly name them is a first necessary step.

Thanks R4VEN.......no doubt everyone who participated in the debate will be as pleased as I am to hear that it has helped you.

My natal Chiron is at 29 Scorpio btw, so I guess you and I are indeed around the same age.

EJ:)

[cassanra]

Chiron in the 11th in Aquarius...I think that seems to be this feeling of disconnect and I am not sure why I feel that way. I am sure my sisters could tell me. But I am becoming more and more aware of this in my work and I am wondering why I feel the way I do and how to change it. I recognize on some level that I 'reject' first and I suspect that others feel my rejection..but it is more something else? My own rejection as a child? would that be where I would look? I can not seem to understand chiron in the 11th or in Aquarious...anyone else?

[R4VEN]

Chiron in the 11th in Aquarius...I think that seems to be this feeling of disconnect and I am not sure why I feel that way. I am sure my sisters could tell me. But I am becoming more and more aware of this in my work and I am wondering why I feel the way I do and how to change it. I recognize on some level that I 'reject' first and I suspect that others feel my rejection..but it is more something else? My own rejection as a child? would that be where I would look? I can not seem to understand chiron in the 11th or in Aquarious...anyone else?
cassanra, you have described very clearly the feeling of one with Chiron in Aquarius and the 11th. Yes, it appears to be an expectation - based upon your own deep-seated beliefs about your place in the world - that you will be rejected, left out, excluded, the last one picked, etc, so to exclude yourself before anyone has a chance to `reject' you - because for you, rejection by another is the worst of all wounding.
Ironically, you were born into the generation from early`55 - early`61, all of whom possess this wound, although in different areas of their lives. Within your age-group you would all have some kind of rejection/acceptance/disconnection wound, so whenever you reject someone (of your age) before they reject you, their own wounds of feeling rejected are then activated! It's a bit like tag-chasey.

Some Chiron in Aqu people I know express it the following way - and they have each had rejection issues in their early lives - which may or may not have been actual rejection, but this is how they perceived it:
a woman I know feels `like an alien' (and spent a couple of years wanting the aliens to abduct her, so she could `go back home'), but also grew up amid a lot of anger and abuse, as her father had been in a prison camp in WW2
another woman was rejected - cast out actually - by her family, so now she is so needy about being accepted by others, that others continue to reject her (cos she is so annoying!)
another woman I know was actually cast out of her religious sect (interesting that she got her sense of belonging from being in a group which preached separateness and exclusivity - ironic!!) when she began to associate with a man fron outside the sect. Now, some 24 years later, she has mild OCD, and won't let go of anything; her place is so cluttered, and I'm sure this is due to her sense of `losing' her support structure.
my brother is a farmer in a remote area, and so he lives and works almost in isolation. He was a `late baby' to my parents, and always felt he wasn't wanted. He's very attached to his wife and his kids - his new family. A number of years ago - probably during his Chiron opposition - he contemplated leaving his wife. There was no real trigger for this, other than he said he was `sick of being married'. Now, he got through this, but I feel that he may have been contemplating `leaving her before she left him' - a very common Ch in Aqu reaction to avoiding being wounded.There seems to be a recurring theme there, in that a person with Ch in Aqu is born bringing with them the necessity for healing wounds related to rejection and not belonging. As these wounds are activated with each square, opp and then the Chiron return around 50, then you may be faced with a repetition of these wounds in your daily life - such as losing a job or a relationship, a sudden sense that you no longer `connect' with a person, or an activity. If you can connect with some of the original woundings - of rejection, isolation, feeling you are `not really here', - from earlier in your life then that is beneficial, and it makes it easier to:
name the wound (the feeling it gives you)
your usual reaction to this wound (in your case that may be withholding or rejecting others before they reject you)
express the hurt in a way which doesn't spread your wound and damage others
begin to look at how you (may) continue to experience the wounding by expecting it to occurFrom that point there's quite a lot of work to be done in reacting in a more conscious way to the wounding (and perception of possible wounding) in your present day.
For myself, this is a daily awareness campaign. I'm 60, and I feel that my Chiron wounds may never actually be fully healed, but I'd like to be able to live with them without expecting certain types of people to be bullies and manipulators.

The core wound of those with Chiron in Aquarius is actually the sense of being disconnected from the Divine (or God if you prefer), and this is then acted out in the physical world by feeling `separate' from others. Some express this wound by separating themselves first, whilst others become try-hard-to-belong types. In all cases, there appear to be issues related to your right to be here, in the physical, your groundedness on the planet. Body work - massage, physio, Bowen, Alexander technique, and more - can work very well for those with this Chiron placement (and you have it in 11th house also, which is a double-whammy effect) as the wound itself can cause a person to remain in their heads, where they feel safe and in control, and not get their consciousness down into their bodies, which is where the wounds are generally held.

My friend who wanted to be abducted by aliens didn't even acknowledge that abuse took place in her childhood home until I prompted her to talk about her childhood. She'd been such an angry person, always getting mad at her kids, and I knew there had to be a reason for this. It was only when she began to review her childhood honestly that she was able to acknowledge that her feelings of anger and rejection began there. Once she was able to get beneath her anger, she found hurt, and mainly hurt experienced by feeling rejected by both her parents. Again, whether her parents actually rejected her or not is immaterial - it is her sense of being rejected which she has had to acknowledge, because she brought that with her from the age of 5 right through to now.

I could write so much about this Chiron placement. It took me years to understand it, but as Chiron is now in Aquarius again, these wounds of rejection, exclusion, disconnection are being observed all around us, in so many areas of life.

[R4VEN]

Chiron in the 11th in Aquarius My own rejection as a child? would that be where I would look? I can not seem to understand chiron in the 11th or in Aquarious...anyone else?

Undoubtedly you'd have to look at early childhood, and the earlier the better.

Group situations, such as family, early school experiences, friendship groups, Sunday School, school camps, any groups you belonged to in your childhood.

Also useful to look at the first Chiron square, because the original wound is generally reactivated at this time. This would have been when Chiron was in Taurus - mid `76 - late `84, but more specifically, if you can determine the dates when your actual Chiron square took place, then this might help you to create a starting point.

[cassanra]

Thank you so much!! I will have my chiron return this year so perfect timing to get working on this. Interesting ...what you said about not connecting it from head to hear. Both my sisters talk about the feelings they have of rejection from parents but I can only listen to then as it does not feel to me. I do not think I have any real tragedy just two parents who were very ambitious and unavailable and grandparents who ridiculed me about my weight (old school thinness) but I will check out the dates of the Chiron. Maybe that will explain a lot to me. You have helpd me so much!

[R4VEN]

Thank you so much!! I will have my chiron return this year so perfect timing to get working on this. Interesting ...what you said about not connecting it from head to hear. Both my sisters talk about the feelings they have of rejection from parents but I can only listen to then as it does not feel to me. I do not think I have any real tragedy just two parents who were very ambitious and unavailable and grandparents who ridiculed me about my weight (old school thinness) but I will check out the dates of the Chiron. Maybe that will explain a lot to me. You have helpd me so much!
I'm glad to have been of help, cassanra. I've spent almost 15 years pursuing knowledge of the effects of Chiron and Chiron wounding. I have needed this knowledge in the first instance for myself, but am aware that to spread this knowledge around where it's asked for is also part of my own journey.

I took the liberty of looking up your personal profile in search of a DOB. As a Gemini, the tendency to feel safe in your intellect - ie. to live inside your head - can tend to block your ability to actually feel your own wounding. No matter, I'm noticing in the current planetary energies that true intention is everything. If you set your intention to identify your own core wounding experiences without the intention of wounding anyone else (i.e. maybe your parents) then I'm certain all will be revealed in time.

[starlink]

I've spent almost 15 years pursuing knowledge of the effects of Chiron and Chiron wounding.
This is good to know! There is so much still we dont know about Chiron, so if I have a question in the future, I know whom to turn to:)

About this not connecting with the pain. I have Chiron in my 12th in Scorpio and it squares my Saturn. I think the 12th house also is very "helpful" in forgetting what happened to you. I cant remember anything up till I was 14 years old!! I suspect I have been and am still hiding most probably a lot under the carpet for myself......

[cassanra]

Starlink, your memory of events or lack thereof is interesting. Since Chiron is within 2 degrees of the cusp of the 12th I took note of your comments. My sisters will talk of events that were big deals and I will not remember any of it...I have certain areas that are blank. Maybe it is simply remembering different things but maybe it is more selective memory. My need to not be rejected would not allow me to see things. If you have siblings connecting with them on their perception of events may be telling or talking to other family members in general. I think in your case it is very telling...

[cassanra]

You have no idea how much this has helped me...I woke up this morning feeling rejuvenated and purposeful. It has helped me begin to solve some mystery. Interestingly enough, my solar chart for next year has jupiter, neptune, chiron and the moon in a stellium in the 10th with the north node conjunct the MC. All of this trines the sun in the second and squares mercury in the first. With chiron returning to its natal point or chiron return, this may be an illuminating year.

[starlink]

Hi Cass, well, the first time I sort of realised that not all could have been applepie in my life, was when a cousin of mine told me that she always felt so sorry for me because I had to take responsability for my parents so much. I was absolutely amazed at this because I really never ever felt that way.

Looking at my chart it is also very clear that things could not have been pleasant in my early childhood, notwithstanding the fact that I lived a very protected life. So there must have been "darker things", not really obvious things that happened. I was thinking of maybe sexual abuse as that is often connected with Pluto-Sun and Pluto-Moon aspects and after all I am having a T-square between Pluto (apex) with Sun in 6, Moon in 12. This of course could also point to my birth which was very traumatic.

Then I discovered after my fathers death, letters from my grandfather (my moms father) to her where he repeatedly asked her to please tell him what she was so afraid off. She never told him I guess because I have letter spreading over several years until his death and all the time he repeats this question. My mother left my father when I was about 6 for a year or so to have psychological treatment. I read letters from him to her during that time and he asked her if she would not want to come back, maybe she could send ME back to him! Now, I also had a brother at that time, so why did he only want me to come back? I always felt close to my father (his Moon in Scorpio conjuncted mine in Scorpio, oh oh!) so I still have no idea what could have been the problem, except that my mothers fears for whatever that was, must have rubbed off on me. I am a very careful person. I have thought about getting hypnotherapy but dont know if at this time in my life it would still bring anything.

Whatever my Chiron wound is, I honestly have no knowledge of it consciously. Wished someone could throw light on this.

[freedomlover]

Whatever my Chiron wound is, I honestly have no knowledge of it consciously. Wished someone could throw light on this.

Is your chart posted anywhere, Starlink?

[cassanra]

I would be careful about hypnotherapy as, not intentionally, memories can be implanted. Memories are usually triggered by some trauma. Does your brother remember anything? If you were one or two you might not ever remember but the atmosphere of the home might be quite affected by it.

[R4VEN]

This is good to know! There is so much still we dont know about Chiron, so if I have a question in the future, I know whom to turn to:)

About this not connecting with the pain. I have Chiron in my 12th in Scorpio and it squares my Saturn. I think the 12th house also is very "helpful" in forgetting what happened to you. I cant remember anything up till I was 14 years old!! I suspect I have been and am still hiding most probably a lot under the carpet for myself......
A couple of things jump out for me in relation to Chiron in 12th in Scorpio, square natal Saturn..........

You were obviously born between Nov`46-Nov`48. Many of those born in the years following WW2 have the Chiron-Saturn square. It's complicated, but in a nutshell, the mothers had to be both mother and father to their children, and as a result were tough on their kids. Many of those born with this were suppressed and dominated - perhaps having their power stripped - by the dominant parent. The post-war parents felt powerless, and to have to pander to powerful little Chiron in Scorpio kids was a step too far for many!

Chiron on 12th is a bit interesting, but usually leads to a denial of what has really occurred in the past, since there is a perception it is way too confronting to be honest about it. There's a tendency towards secluding oneself, or hiding yourself away, perhaps in your job, or your ideology. One young woman I know who has Chiron in Gemini in the 12th hides herself inside a fantasy world in her head. She watches a lot of DVD's, and has almost no genuine connection with the `real world'. It's almost as though she writes this never-ending novel with herself as the main character - so she never has to look at the truth of her life. Perhaps, starlink, it's your family's silence over `what happened' which has led you to hiding it from yourself.

Chiron in Scorpio brings issues to do with power, manipulation - which includes abuse of all kinds - addictions, death. Death is the big one with Ch in Scorpio, as almost everyone I know from my class in primary school (and pretty much all of us had Chiron in Scorpio) has been powerfully affected by death - a parent, a sibling, a partner, a friend or close relative, even their own, through serious accidents or suicidal tendencies.

To discover your wound perhaps it's best to look at how you've set your life up. What is it you avoid, or guard against? It could be all or some of the following:
loss of power
loss of someone you love
loss of property, finances, jobs
loss of your own life
loss of autonomy and/or free will (a bit like loss of power, but more specific)The list is longer, but I just wanted to give you something to think about. When you identify truthfully what it is that scares you the most, then that is a starting point.

[EJ53]

...I cant remember anything up till I was 14 years old!!

Star, what changed in your life around the age of 14? And why might that have caused your subconscious mind to stop suppressing memories?

You were obviously born between Nov`46-Nov`48. Many of those born in the years following WW2 have the Chiron-Saturn square. It's complicated, but in a nutshell, the mothers had to be both mother and father to their children, and as a result were tough on their kids. Many of those born with this were suppressed and dominated - perhaps having their power stripped - by the dominant parent. The post-war parents felt powerless, and to have to pander to powerful little Chiron in Scorpio kids was a step too far for many!

R4VEN, my parents were very lenient..... because they wanted their children not to experience the hardships they had endured themselves.

Otherwise though, everything you say here applies to me - with mother running the home, because father worked/travelled some 13 hours a day (except Sunday). And, the memory I suppressed occurred around the age of 12-24 months - when she used to deal with my "temper tantrums" by carrying me on her hip kicking and screaming until I was too exhausted to continue.

But, she never realised those "tantrums" resulted from my frustrated attempts to communicate with her when she was busy - or that her "solution" re-inforced the Chiron in Scorpio/3rd mindset with which I was born. Thus, the seeds were sown for a lifetime of expecting Authorities to find ways of not hearing what I had to say - a Chiron fear of manipulation (Scorpio) manifesting through 3rd House activity (communication).

EJ:)

[R4VEN]

But, she never realised those "tantrums" resulted from my frustrated attempts to communicate with her when she was busy - or that her "solution" re-inforced the Chiron in Scorpio/3rd mindset with which I was born. Thus, the seeds were sown for a lifetime of expecting Authorities to find ways of not hearing what I had to say - a Chiron fear of manipulation (Scorpio) manifesting through 3rd House activity (communication).EJ:)
That's interesting, EJ.

And I'll bet you've created many, many situations where an Authority doesn't hear you!

Interesting also that your mother found a way to `resolve' your early childhood outbursts of frustration (i.e. temper tantrums). Thus, the powerful little Chiron in Scorpio was suppressed/silenced from an early age.

I've heard many stories from those born during this time whose parents and older family members actively tried to suppress their child's will. My mother used to say to me: "You're so willful!" like it was a dirty word, or another one of her favourite words for me was "outspoken', like this was a really bad thing. I no longer hold any resentment towards her for this, but she did actively try to suppress me, believing that as a female I'd be better off in the long-run were I compliant and `nice'. Hah!!!

[EJ53]

....I'll bet you've created many, many situations where an Authority doesn't hear you!......

Oh yes!...........And taken great pride in my stubborn determination/efforts to make them do so..........until more enlightened members of this forum recently made me realise the problem was within (rather than outside of) myself.

(Maybe "that which we most pride ourselves upon" is another indicator of our Chiron wound?)

EJ:)

[R4VEN]

Oh yes!...........And taken great pride in my stubborn determination/efforts to make them do so..........until more enlightened members of this forum recently made me realise the problem was within (rather than outside of) myself.

(Maybe "that which we most pride ourselves upon" is another indicator of our Chiron wound?)EJ:)
I'd say so. With repeated behaviour in `fixing' the issue, we become so adept at the fixing (particularly the `hanging in there' until the job is done!) that the wound itself becomes an integrated part of our everyday life. Asking oneself `Why am I forever doing this?' tends to be overlooked until someone else points it out.

[CertifiedDiva]

I just stumbled upon this thread and after reading the postings I did some research on my natal chart. I am Chiron in Gemini in the 8th house.
I read about issues with communication; wanting to be heard, listened to and fearing ridicule if I ever spoke up. I have to agree I LOVE to be heard and listened to especially when it comes to giving advice but sometimes (like in public forums online) I opt not to reply to postings asking for advice because I fear it will be overlooked or someone will strongly disagree...
Also I read that with my Chiron being in the 8th house I would be a great sex therapist and this kind of excited me because I am actually pursuing my certification in Sex therapy and education for couples... Regarding healing my chiron I'm not sure where to start.
Any thoughts about my research? Feedback?

http://i39.tinypic.com/2zsuzc6.gif

[EJ53]

... Regarding healing my chiron I'm not sure where to start....Any thoughts about my research? Feedback?

Hi Diva,

Your Chiron opposes Uranus, which combine with Jupiter to form a tight-orbed "Easy Opposition" - and the Sun makes this a wide-orbed "Mystic Rectangle". So, you need to determine how the combined influence of these four bodies affects your life/behaviour.

As you probably know, the challenge of Mystic Rectangles is to get all four bodies to work together harmoniously - by recognising and overcoming the problems created by the two oppositions. Once achieved though, it provides a solid foundation enabling you to cope with anything that life might throw your way.

So, your starting point is understanding the Chiron/UranusRx opposition - then the Sun/Jupiter opposition (and finally the trines+sextiles) of your mystic triangle.

The forum already has an excellent thread on the Chiron/Uranus opposition :- http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=988&highlight=Chiron explaining that it's purpose is to force the individual to confront their Chiron Wound. So, in your case, the Chiron fear of having your communications ridiculed/ignored is compounded by having unusual/free-thinking views (Uranus) on Sagitarrius matters (higher education, religion, freedom of the individual, etc.). In effect, you probably hold views/values (2nd house) which conflict with others (8th house) - causing the latter to defend their stance by ridiculing/putting down yours without proper consideration - confirming your fear of having your opinions/communications ridiculed. (I'm not explaining this well - but you can see how the cycle works to make your Chiron Wound increasingly painful until you deal with it.)

So, perhaps not surprisingly, the Sun/Jupiter opposition creates the same problem in a different way. The Sun in Leo/10th is about your need to be recognised/ the centre of attention by those outside your home environment - and Jupiter in Aquarius/4th says you are happiest at home, where you can freely express your unusual beliefs. Thus, the astrological task of this opposition is to become recognised outside the home because of your unusual views.

Hopefully, this gives you an idea of "where to start" on your work with Chiron - but, that's a long road for us all (albeit extremely rewarding). For now though, my guess is Chiron requires you to "feel the fear (of ridicule) and express your views anyway - because it might be the mainstream view that's wrong rather than yours". (See R4VEN signature.)

EJ:)

[autumnleaf]

EJ~I find I like reading what you have to say almost as much as I do Flea's. Very insightful and informative. One can tell you two have actually worked through your issues and lessons, not just reading responses from abook. I find myself stopping to read Flea's posts even if the topic is of no particular interest to me. I may have to start doing that with yours now. Thanks a lot, more reading to do! :rolleyes: ;)


Chiron is a fascinating subject though I still have difficulty trying to figure out its meaning/purpose in my chart. It is retrograde in H6 in Aries. My temper and lack of patience and my using the threat of violence, IMHO, are all the result of Chiron here. Anger is a comfortable emotion for me and makes me feel "safe" by pushing away those intense feelings of fear & hurt/pain. It's all I allow others to see of me. I think I have too much water (6 planets). I'm not counting the nodes or my asc which are in Pisces and Scorpio. I have that typical "stay away from me" vibe that someone mentioned in another thread is due to my Venus-Saturn opposition.

I have found only a few people whom I feel safe enough around to allow my sensitive and compassionate side be seen and felt. It's all so new to me and when I try to let myself feel and experience them I get all uncomfortable and make pukey faces, which makes these people laugh. I find it unnerving having them watch me grow in this department. Two of them have strong Leo in their charts. They use emotions I find HIGHLY uncomfortable, love and a gentleness and understanding one would use with a child, to help me in my healing. They just come strutting along and point out my fears and what they are based on and I'm like :eek: and just who the hell are you?! How the hell do you know all this?! How unnerving for a typical Scorp like me, especially when I think I've been doing a wonderful job in hiding my sore spots from others. My Leo bf made the mistake of prattling off almost to a "T" exactly what happened to me and why I act all tough and full of bravado. I freaked out and thought he was someone from my past who had betrayed me and went through my journals. I found the lamest excuse and used it to run him off and didn't talk to him for eight months. Come to find out, he knew exactly why I had run him off. So unnerving to have someone know me that well without me saying a word. Come to find out he has a Pisces Moon. I can't hide anything without him feeling my vibes and instinctively pin-pointing what's going on in my over watery thoughts and feelings! :mad: :p

It will be 4 years we've been together this March. I'm still terrified at the thought of marriage. According to this fabulous chart reading another member directed me to, I have Sun trine Black Moon Lilith to thank for my love of independence, freedom and non-conformist ways. I have issues with authority and I don't like having to answer to anybody else. Where are you going? Who will you be seeing? When will you be back? Who knows, who cares and when I get back!! :mad: :p :D

[EJ53]

EJ~I find I like reading what you have to say almost as much as I do Flea's.......

"Almost", AutumnLeaf...........almost?

(Just kidding...........actually, I have the same high regard for Flea as you do. Thank you very much,)

Chiron in Aries/6th points to self-esteem being an everyday problem for you - and anger can be a way of hiding that from both yourself and others. So, what you need to do is try to see yourself as others do. (Your boyfriend and the two Leo's must value you highly, as they continue to "be there" for you despite the temper issue. And, since you clearly value their views generally, it should be easy to accept that their assessment of you is likely to be correct as well.)

EJ:)

[autumnleaf]

"Almost", AutumnLeaf...........almost?

(Just kidding...........actually, I have the same high regard for Flea as you do. Thank you very much,)

Chiron in Aries/6th points to self-esteem being an everyday problem for you - and anger can be a way of hiding that from both yourself and others. So, what you need to do is try to see yourself as others do. (Your boyfriend and the two Leo's must value you highly, as they continue to "be there" for you despite the temper issue. And, since you clearly value their views generally, it should be easy to accept that their assessment of you is likely to be correct as well.)

EJ:)


:D

Now see, comments like that are exactly what bring out my "pukey pukey barf barf" expression they laugh at. Fine! All of you are right. I hate being outnumbered!

[R4VEN]

Chiron in Aries/6th points to self-esteem being an everyday problem for you - and anger can be a way of hiding that from both yourself and others. So, what you need to do is try to see yourself as others do. (Your boyfriend and the two Leo's must value you highly, as they continue to "be there" for you despite the temper issue. And, since you clearly value their views generally, it should be easy to accept that their assessment of you is likely to be correct as well.)EJ:)
Yes, I agree with what EJ53 says about Chiron in Aries. As a generation, (because I find that Chiron's placements in the signs is easier to 'unlock' if I look at the whole group of people with each sign.) I find that those with this Chiron placement deal with it and/or express it in one (or all) of several ways:
by feeling the need to prove themselves in some way - usually through over-achieving in work, sport, business, or some kind of endeavour which others can recognise. [Those with stelliums in their natal charts tend to fall into this category. My niece, born with 6 planets in Virgo, 4 in stellium, and with Chiron in Aries in the 1st, was, for the first 35 years of her life such an over-achiever. She now (at 40) seems to be settling down and looking to please herself rather than her parents, who hardly noticed what she was doing anyway!]
this can include going out on a limb and being the first ever to do something
putting others' needs ahead of your own - an expression of deep feelings of worthlessness. This can lead to a habit of `living one's life through others.'
aggressive (and often futile) reactions to what we see as criticism from others (which probably is a reflection of your own self-criticism and other negative self-talk.)The thinking behind that last dot-point is that you must keep others at a safe distance for fear they'll get too close and so recognise that you actually are damaged and even worthless (in your opinion.)

I have also observed that those with Chiron in the 6th (and this is a complicated house for Chiron to occupy, by the way) tend to oscillate between being serious and steady and rational, and even co-operative with others, and being totally aggressive and freedom-seeking. One of my sons has Chiron in the 6th. He currently lives with me, and his push-pull moods (he's currently experiencing something v. difficult in his life, but all the same.....) are driving me nuts!!!

[autumnleaf]

Yes, I agree with what EJ53 says about Chiron in Aries. As a generation, (because I find that Chiron's placements in the signs is easier to 'unlock' if I look at the whole group of people with each sign.) I find that those with this Chiron placement deal with it and/or express it in one (or all) of several ways:

by feeling the need to prove themselves in some way - usually through over-achieving in work, sport, business, or some kind of endeavour which others can recognise. [Those with stelliums in their natal charts tend to fall into this category. My niece, born with 6 planets in Virgo, 4 in stellium, and with Chiron in Aries in the 1st, was, for the first 35 years of her life such an over-achiever. She now (at 40) seems to be settling down and looking to please herself rather than her parents, who hardly noticed what she was doing anyway!]
this can include going out on a limb and being the first ever to do something
putting others' needs ahead of your own - an expression of deep feelings of worthlessness. This can lead to a habit of `living one's life through others.'
aggressive (and often futile) reactions to what we see as criticism from others (which probably is a reflection of your own self-criticism and other negative self-talk.)The thinking behind that last dot-point is that you must keep others at a safe distance for fear they'll get too close and so recognise that you actually are damaged and even worthless (in your opinion.)

I have also observed that those with Chiron in the 6th (and this is a complicated house for Chiron to occupy, by the way) tend to oscillate between being serious and steady and rational, and even co-operative with others, and being totally aggressive and freedom-seeking. One of my sons has Chiron in the 6th. He currently lives with me, and his push-pull moods (he's currently experiencing something v. difficult in his life, but all the same.....) are driving me nuts!!!


:eek:

I can't deny any of it, except the over-achieving part. I think I was that way before the trauma occurred and sent me spiraling. I did the opposite. I gave up everything and became a recluse and adopted the MUST KEEP OTHERS AT A DISTANCE as my new "goal" in life. I never put others before myself either. My sister used to get so mad cuz it was all about me. I was accused of being selfish, thoughtless and self-centered. I am still struggling with the negative thinking about my being worthless and damaged goods, but thankfully those thoughts just don't come into play as much now that I don't drink or do drugs anymore.

[flea]

Blush... what can I say...but well....I am honoured by you guys. I often talk in the first person, well about myself and my experiences, maybe that is my JupR in gemini conjunct the ascendant. And I do enjoy so many people here, those present and moving on. EJ and Autumnleaf ... I definitely enjoy your posts too.... you guys keep me coming back here, learning sharing , growing.

Anyway I have found out that My NN is conjunct my mothers chiron in gemini, and my mothers NN is conjunct her mother's chiron in aquarius (plus my venus copnjunct). My grandmothers saturn is conj my mums sun. And my mars is sq my mums mars.Speaking rhetorically you think there could be some pattern here playing down the generations???

I have done a bit of family tree healing and most of what comes up is down this line. We all share a water grand trine too. And have a teaching focus in careers. Oh well the universe is teaching me about the ancestor thing.

Anyway I have come to the conclusion that we got together in this life time to transmute something that anyone of us could not singly do. The wound got expressed over a couple of generations and I am the one investigating it and doing the clearing and deciphering work.

My grandmother passed just after Jupiter crossed her chiron....another link.

Oh... I do have a tight T-square Sun square Chiron and Sun square Pluto/uranus. Not surprisingly I had an emergenrcy caeser and had breathing difficulties. My mothers waters broke a few days before and the nurses did not believe her.... I had this gorgeous norman helmet head on enertering this world. Oh gemini lunar eclispe between the waters breaking and my birth. And the space craft gemini 7 doing a circuit round the world.

Anyway, I am untangling my own wounds ( i do the odd past life clearing as it comes up) and looking at my mother and grandmother give me some demonstrations of the collective wound.

At heart the chiron wound must be the spearation from the universal ground of being. Authority issues ( I have a few) can be interpreted as the ego not willing to accept divine will, you know the equilibrium of nature and all that, we fight it. But as a consequence we block our true selfs and do not feel accepted, as we have in some way rejected the divine. Maybe us rejecting the divine is at the core of all this chiron stuff. I know in loving my mum, wound and all, it softens and opens up, transmutes, we become aware.

Oh for the lotus to truely flower in each and everyone of us.

FleaXX

[autumnleaf]

:cheers: There

[autumnleaf]

Dang computer. There isn't a good emoticon here that gives hugs, so cheers to you flea.

[autumnleaf]

At heart the chiron wound must be the spearation from the universal ground of being. Authority issues ( I have a few) can be interpreted as the ego not willing to accept divine will, you know the equilibrium of nature and all that, we fight it. But as a consequence we block our true selfs and do not feel accepted, as we have in some way rejected the divine. Maybe us rejecting the divine is at the core of all this chiron stuff. I know in loving my mum, wound and all, it softens and opens up, transmutes, we become aware.

Oh for the lotus to truely flower in each and everyone of us.

FleaXX


We have in some way rejected the divine :confused: No, it's generally because whoever is in the position of authority is simply an A$$!!! :D

Seriously though, I think you may be onto something here. For me, finding my Higher Power,aka divine, again and being humble and owning up to my part in what's happened to me has been where all of the healing these last four years has come from. And as long as I don't lose that humbleness and try to start controlling things everything works out for the best.
It's funny to note that all those years that I dissed any kind of higher power, nothing good ever came from anything. Nowadays, I have more blessings than I ever hoped to receive and I just know there are many more awaiting me.

An interesting note: Aries is the "it's all about me" sign, yes? Get this, one of the most healing things I have ever experienced has been when I forget about myself and am freely, generously doing something for others without expecting anything in return but a good feeling that I helped someone else....volunteer work! It's hard to explain but I feel powerful yet humble at the same time and the good feelings that come from it are like nothing else. I go at things like a pit bull. When it's being done for personal gain I get nothing, but when I'm doing it for others my cup runneth over. My Higher Power is pretty slick too. Because I like the "high" of feeling good about myself for a change, I look forward to going back and seeing what I can do the next time.
I'll quit now as I'm rambling on in my excitement. :p They used to call me motor mouth in my pre-trauma days. Can't imagine why!

Many blessings to everyone on their individual paths of healing and enlightenment.

[flea]

Aries is an inetresting one for me.... Intercepted! I have had a journey about expressing my intent will etc to my detriment. 6th house sun merc nept with sun on descendent.... I identify with the other far more that myself....helping the other is where I am comfortable SN in 6th too. Identifying my needs is my challenge and NN 12th points me to my spiritual needs or my needs in the context of higher good.... within the whole matrix of life. So learning what is best for me, that has no negative on anything else.....None of us do this by the way that's why we are here. That elusive equilibrium with nature and the cosmos. Our ego gets in the way and fears we will lose out to something or someone else.

My point is we all have our different paths and learing in life. Mine focuses on the more nebulous and spiritual with chiron and satrun in pisces and NN in 12th. Some need to learn to care for others... then some to care for self. We all have to learn to do for ourselves.... but sometimes the path to this is finding that there are people our there without the strong ego needs of being a winner or loser (dumb concept) allows us to beleive in a better world.

FleaXXX

[EJ53]

.... I identify with the other far more that myself....helping the other is where I am comfortable SN in 6th too. Identifying my needs is my challenge and NN 12th points me to my spiritual needs or my needs in the context of higher good.... within the whole matrix of life. So learning what is best for me, that has no negative on anything else.....None of us do this by the way that's why we are here. That elusive equilibrium with nature and the cosmos.

Hi Flea,

I have Cancer/Capricorn intercepted, with Pisces duplicated on 6th/7th house cusps (and Virgo on 12th/1st). As you know, this means that something about my attitude to the 6/12 axis activities adversely affects those of the 1/7 axis - with the benefits/positive characteristics of Cancer/Capricorn being delayed until the attitude is resolved.

Turned out I had to learn that we must take care of ourselves (6th) in order to stay healthy enough to take care of others (12th). The "wrong" attitude involved always putting the needs of others before myself - which, if not corrected, would lead to physical/marital breakdown (1/7) and problems both at home and in my career (Cancer/Capricorn).

Interestingly, I now see that "wrong" attitude reflecting Piscean values (sacrificing self for others) and the new attitude as reflecting Aquarian values (maximising the individual's contibution to the group).

EJ:)

[R4VEN]

Hi Flea,

I have Cancer/Capricorn intercepted, with Pisces duplicated on 6th/7th house cusps (and Virgo on 12th/1st). As you know, this means that something about my attitude to the 6/12 axis activities adversely affects those of the 1/7 axis - with the benefits/positive characteristics of Cancer/Capricorn being delayed until the attitude is resolved.
EJ:)
OK, so pardon my slowness to uptake new information......................
Had always tended to gloss over the ol' intercepted and duplicated signs - probably since I don't have any myself, and I'm a Leo, and heck, isn't it all about me?? (seriously not so - just kidding!)......................

So what you're saying EJ is that the issues of intercepted signs cannot be worked upon effectively until one balances the (out of whack) attitides of the duplicated signs - and their houses, I'd say.

Is that how it is?

[flea]

My interceptions are all in cardinal signs....which makes me think of manifestation. Still working out my skewed values in 2-8 houses....self worth, money, sexuality......having a positive expression of all those, releasing outdated religious dogma, could well be my issue.

Then comes the healing to express self worth and balance of all, Aries libra, and then being able to create my hopes and wishes.... 5 -11 houses. With Chrion on the 11th cusp.... it shows an eventual healing of the issues of this house... so I am working on bringin my highest hopes into being which assists and is in align with in the highest hopes and wishes of all.

You have given me food for thought as always EJ....the picture becomes clearer. I like the Picses Aquarius thinking.... it works well for me.

FleaXXX

[EJ53]

......So what you're saying EJ is that the issues of intercepted signs cannot be worked upon effectively until one balances the (out of whack) attitides of the duplicated signs - and their houses, I'd say....Is that how it is?

Yes......Intercepted Signs and Duplicated Houses go hand-in-hand.

Most textbooks state something like "the benefits of Intercepted Signs, and any planets within them, are delayed until later in life".......but (I think) only relatively recent ones attempt to explain the "why" through Duplicated Houses, along the lines of :-

Something about the natives attitude to the lower numbered house on each duplicated sign axis creates a problem in the higher numbered houses which, until resolved, prevents him/her from being able to fully exploit the positive characteristics of the Intercepted Signs (and any planets within them).

And, I have my own theory that the inappropriate attitude may reflect Piscean Age values needing to be updated to Aquarian Age values. So, interceptions might really be about learning to help others to fish rather than doing the fishing for them.

EJ:)

[R4VEN]

Something about the natives attitude to the lower numbered house on each duplicated sign axis creates a problem in the higher numbered houses which, until resolved, prevents him/her from being able to fully exploit the positive characteristics of the Intercepted Signs (and any planets within them). EJ:) Now that makes such sense to me. Thanks heaps, EJ.


And, I have my own theory that the inappropriate attitude may reflect Piscean Age values needing to be updated to Aquarian Age values. So, interceptions might really be about learning to help others to fish rather than doing the fishing for them.

EJ:) I like this theory..........
It kinda rings true.

[natasa812]

What about retrograde Ch. I have in 1o in Aries (intercepted)- in oposition with Pluto and Uranus, trines Sun, Jupiter and Neptune, squares Venus?
Natasa

[flea]

sounds like a good idea for a new thread....interceptions in the age of aquarius.


ThankEJ

[EJ53]

What about retrograde Ch. I have in 1o in Aries (intercepted)- in oposition with Pluto and Uranus, trines Sun, Jupiter and Neptune, squares Venus?

Hi Natasa,

You asked a similar question on another thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=108752#post108752 where I replied as follows :-

Chiron in Aries/1st suggests a lack of self confidence.
The trines indicate a willingness to confront/overcome the Chiron issues.
The lack of confidence causes relationship problems (Chiron/Venus square)
Uranus square Venus attracts unusual people.
Sagittarius Sun on MC points to your career success as an interpreter.

After overcoming your subconscious Chiron fear (by reviewing through adult eyes those childhood events which caused it), you will become an inspiration to others.

So, adding to that in the light of the additional information you give here (ChironRx intercepted and opposed Pluto/Uranus) - "your Soul is determined to resolve it's Chiron issues in this lifetime, but it may take a long time to do so".

In essence, the childhood causes of your Chiron wound should be relatively easy to recall consciously and it's effect (self-doubt) will be apparent in relationship problems - enabling you to see clearly what needs to change. However, successful change will not be achieved until you have addressed the "attitude problem" indicated by the houses with duplicated signs on them. (Currently though, you have not told us which houses are duplicated).

EJ:)

[natasa812]

I answered on the other post!!!!!!!!!! OH! Another Mercury retro issue!
Here is the answer and sorry for the ``double`` subject that occured in here.
Thank you again

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ53
Chiron in Aries/11th suggests a lack of confidence in groups/social situations.
The trines indicate a willingness to confront/overcome the Chiron issues.
The lack of confidence causes relationship problems (Chiron/Venus square)
Uranus square Venus attracts unusual people.
Sagittarius Sun on MC points to your career success as an interpreter.

After overcoming your subconscious Chiron fear (by reviewing through adult eyes those childhood events which caused it), you will become an inspiration to others.

EJ:)

Dear EJ, first to tank you and to admit that your memory is much better than mine. Second, to write twice a similar post, it must be my Mercury retro in natal... :) , third, to answer about my intercepted houses - ALL OF THEM exept the 5th one which is in canser. I have difficult aspects in my natal, searching the best way to aply and to use in positive way what is given to me by birth.
Thank you again
Natasa

[flea]

might be better to just post your chart Natasa, tere seems to be a misunderstanding of intercepted houses. My chart is in a link at the bottom. I have aries and libra intercepted (wholly within) in houses 5 and 11. The Cancer is on the cusp of both 2nd and 3rd house, and capricaorn on the cupsp of both the 8th and 9th houses....these are my duplicated houses. Check out my chart and and you might be able to see where your duplicated signs on the house cusps are.

FleaXXX

[R4VEN]

On the topic of intercepted houses/signs........................

I started a thread on this topic elsewhere, but it's not had any bites. Since this issue seems active here I'll ask a question which has been bothering me..

I know this person (aged 21, almost 22) who has Libra & Aries intercepted, houses 3 & 9. She has Mercury, Jupiter, Venus & North Node also in Aries in the 9th, and doesn't express them terribly well, other than through sudden and extreme outbursts of rage, from which she then immediatly distances herself. She has such a difficult time in saying what she means, asking for what she wants, etc, which has been exacerbated by her parents being English and teaching her that she must be `nice', and put the needs of Others (usually the parents) before any needs she may have.

The trouble, as I see it, is that she also has her Sun/Moon MP in Aries in the 9th house, in conjunction with NN, Merc & Jupiter.
She's currently lost in a kind of Libran la-la land, where all the fairies and the elves and the gnomes will care for her forever! (Her tr. Pluto conj Neptune has just begun, too)

Would this MP being in an intercepted sign cause her to avoid accessing the higher side of Aries (i.e. the strength of will), or will it force her to take herself there, however difficult this may be for her?
In other words, is the MP placement a cure or a curse?

[EJ53]

...I started a thread on intercepted houses/signs elsewhere, but it's not had any bites (yet).......So,......Would a sun/moon MP in an intercepted sign cause us to avoid accessing the higher side of Aries (i.e. the strength of will), or force us to take ourself there, however difficult this may be for us?..........In other words, is the MP placement a cure or a curse?

I don't see interceptions as a "confront or avoid" mechanism.........More like "will the interception prevent us from accessing the higher side of Aries and the positive qualities of the Sun/Moon mid-point." And, my answer to that is "Yes, until we correct/update the attitude problem of the lower numbered houses with duplicated signs."

As Starlink points out on other threads, unlocking the interceptions might be easier when the intercepted sign progresses onto a house cusp, and transits over the sign/planets within it focus us on the lesson to be learned - but, I think success comes only after modification of our outdated duplicated lower house attitudes/values.

(Note : On another thread, Archergirl correctly points out that the problems revealed by interception can also be shown through other chart indicators - which I see as emphasising these areas for our attention.)

EJ:)

[flea]

I agree with EJ that there is not preventions. It is a way of describing the story we need to play out. I have S/M midpoint in Libra with this axis intercepted. This point is opposite my dad's sun, and chiron in pisces is on the cusp of the 11th. Saturn in 10th. MC is well progressed into Aries now..... so I can really relate to EJ mentioning Starlink's comment about those angles, and Archegirl's comments bear out in my S/M midpoint and my dad's sun, focusing attention. Leo has just become my progressed ascendent too. I am well into dealing with my authority figure issues, and defining self needs and assertion of my own power etc etc. It has been quite a journey and not finished.

Maybe there is a point that our personalities are not static they are always changing and evoloving as we experience life. Any astrological pattern can be interpreted on many different levels of understanding. Astrology helps us to get to the core issue....and therefore release some of the tension so we can move on.

FleaXXX

[natasa812]

might be better to just post your chart Natasa, tere seems to be a misunderstanding of intercepted houses. My chart is in a link at the bottom. I have aries and libra intercepted (wholly within) in houses 5 and 11. The Cancer is on the cusp of both 2nd and 3rd house, and capricaorn on the cupsp of both the 8th and 9th houses....these are my duplicated houses. Check out my chart and and you might be able to see where your duplicated signs on the house cusps are.

FleaXXX

Very useful.
A help comming from colleague (I see Sun in Sagittarius). Now I understand the difference between intercepted and duplicated. So, my intercepted are: the Leo in 6th and the Aquarius in 12th. And duplicated are: the 5th and the 6th with Cancer on the cusp. I will also post a chart.
Thank you, thank you
Natasa (Sagittarius / Pisces)

[R4VEN]

I am well into dealing with my authority figure issues, and defining self needs and assertion of my own power etc etc. It has been quite a journey and not finished.

Maybe there is a point that our personalities are not static they are always changing and evoloving as we experience life. Any astrological pattern can be interpreted on many different levels of understanding. Astrology helps us to get to the core issue....and therefore release some of the tension so we can move on.

FleaXXX
Thanks flea, and EJ for that clarification re intercepted signs.

The person in question now has progressed Aries on 9th house cusp conj her Sun/Moon MP in 8th house. Her issues currently are to do with natal duplicated sign - Scorpio - on her 4th (& 5th) house cusp; her parents, father in particular, have virtually taken over her life and her choices, using control through fear, and they are unfortunately very good and very skilled at this. They also did this with her 2 olders brothers - both of whom also have intercepted signs on natal chart - and this had quite devastating consequences (one brother left the family altogether, and the other attempted suicide) but no-one appears to have learned from this.

Now, I can only stand by and watch and wait. I have a vested interest in this situation, but am not prepared to elucidate further.

Thanks all for your input. Had previously only had a vague and generalised understanding of intercepted and duplicated signs.

[angeldust]

Hi Radu,

Given the recentness of this planets introduction to astrology, I guess the best we can do on this at the moment is to "fly a few kites" and see where that takes us.

For me, Chiron seems to present individuals with the tasks of recognising, understanding and learning to live with/accept their own unique wound - which can never be healed completely. In general terms, each wound can be recognised by the Chiron sign and the house shows where it impacts most in life. But, that only points the individual in the direction of his/her search to discover the specific way(s) in which it affects/influences them - possibly shown in detail by other features of the birthchart. So the healing process is in the search for self-understanding (in relation to the wound) - and, through achieving the latter, we can become "Chiron healers" ourselves.


EJ:)
one question does this mean in the synastry if ones chrion is conjuct my son 0.3 degrees that this person is supposed to bring deep wounds inside of me out?

[R4VEN]

one question does this mean in the synastry if ones chrion is conjuct my son 0.3 degrees that this person is supposed to bring deep wounds inside of me out? That's certainly one interpretation. What you can be certain about is that together you will have a lot of `work' to do.

[DVANZETT]

I don't see that anyone has asked about Chiron In Libra ,9th house. My natal tells me I have a T square in the cardinal signs(Saturn,Jupitor focus Mercury). Grand air trine (Uranus,Neptune,Sun,Venus). Talent triangle (Uranus,Pluto focus Neptune). From what I have been reading my wounds will never heal. I wish to know what wounds the 9th house rule? I'm in my 5th Jupitor return. I have always been a nervous person but the last 2 years have been very painful in every area of my life especially my health. Can you give me some insight, please.

[Moon Shadow]

Hi everyone,

I think chiron's experience is not easy to be understood. I have checked on many sites ways for understnading and explaining Chiron, but the best i found on a book which is partial available on google books.
Link bellow:

Chiron By Barbara Hand Clow (http://books.google.com/books?id=4rnvfxrc4LwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=chiron&ei=fbrcSantCZ_AzATsneTZDg#PPP1,M1)

I hope it brings some light.

[EJ53]

I don't see that anyone has asked about Chiron In Libra ,9th house.

Your chart displays Equal Houses DANZETT, putting Libra Chiron in 10th house.........where I'd expect the wound to be about difficulties in relationships with colleagues/those outside your intimate circle of friends and family......(EDIT: With Placidus, Chiron is indeed in Libra/9th as R4VEN points out in a later comment)

My natal tells me I have a T square in the cardinal signs(Saturn,Jupitor focus Mercury). Grand air trine (Uranus,Neptune,Sun,Venus). Talent triangle (Uranus,Pluto focus Neptune).

I'd say you have a tight Mercury/Jupiter square (discounting the wide-orbed Saturn aspects)........and a Sun/Mercury/Neptune/Pluto T-square (discounting Uranus, again because of it's wide orbs).......But, many astrologers would agree with your conclusion (and I believe that "if it feels like a Tsquare/Grand Trine/Talent triangle to you, then that's how it should be interpreted).

It might be better to discuss these on another thread though, keeping the focus here on your Chiron issues.

...I have always been a nervous person but the last 2 years have been very painful in every area of my life especially my health.

North Node in Gemini/6th could indicate nervousness and health problems due to difficulty in everyday communications...........and that could link up with the Chiron issue of difficulties in relationships with "those who do not know you well".

Do my "chiron comments" make any sense to you?

EJ:)

[R4VEN]

Your chart shows Libra Chiron in 10th house, DVANZETT......... I found the posted chart to be a bit hard to read, given the MC and ASC have only 2 houses between them, so I created a chart for the poster on Matrix, and indeed she does have Chiron in 9th, in Libra, conjunct Jupiter.

As Chiron describes your wounds - generally something you have been born to address during your lifetime - this placement of Chiron firstly is about Chiron in Libra. My observation of this has been that people with this prefer to be in relationships, but these relationships can be quite trying or difficult in some way. One of my brothers was born with Ch. in Libra, and he once said to me that were his wife to leave him or to die, he would have to find someone else straight away, because he cannot be on his own. When he was young he always had a girlfriend, and was never single for more than a few days. His wife is very difficult and demanding, and I believe also wounded and wounding. This is the placement of one who needs to measure themselves according to the relationship, and it is the relationship which often overwhelms their sense of themselves as an individual.

The 9th house placement of Chiron gives an enduring search for meaning in life. There can be a sense of continually searching for answers - to all those unanswered questions - and this may have taken you down a lot of different pathways - education, religion, personal study, travel to faraway places. Having Jupiter close to your Chiron in the 9th would tend to exacerbate this sense of having to find the answers, which you may believe are somewhere `out there'. No sooner do you settle upon a source for these answers, and your searching nature will take you in another direction. With your Moon being in Sag also, you may enjoy this journey, just for the journey's sake.

One with a 9th house Chiron must be on the lookout for those trying to cash in on your desire for knowledge. This placement can lead to a dependence upon others as a source of all knowledge. That is, the desire to belong to the group who have found the answers can be risky, especially with your natal Neptune in the 9th also. There can be a tendency to follow guru-type people, or even to set yourself up as the source of the answers, and to desire others to follow your lead.
The guru-experience is an extreme manifestation of this placement, but it does happen! I know of someone born in around 1950 whose natal Chiron is in Sag and the 9th house. She has spent most of her adult life in a constant search for answers to Life, and this has led her into some pretty weird religions, and ultimately becoming dependent upon the people who convince her that they preach The Truth.

Sorry for this long-winded post - got carried away (again!)

I hope this helps.

[EJ53]

I found the posted chart to be a bit hard to read, given the MC and ASC have only 2 houses between them, so I created a chart for the poster on Matrix, and indeed she does have Chiron in 9th, in Libra, conjunct Jupiter.

Well fielded, R4VEN..........Placidus puts Chiron in 9th.....The posted Equal House chart puts it in 10th..........So, I regard yours as the valid interpretation.....But I've left mine in for those using Equal Houses.

EJ:)

[Moon Shadow]

Hi R4VEN, and thanks for your 9th house Chiron explanation. I also have it on 9th house, conj. to venus in pisces.

[freedomlover]

R4VEN,

I found your analysis explaining alot concerning my Chiron, as well. I do not have it IN the 9th, but it is co-ruler of my 9th. Apparently some of that is interchangeable to include the ruler of the 9th.

Thanks! You are great, as always!

FL

[Nexus7]

I have just had a Chiron return.

Chiron is in my 3rd conjunct Moon by 5 degrees and as mentioned before, school was 'wounding,' so was the fact that at home neither was there much time for me, and yes, it certainly hurt.

I did get involved by chance with an organisation that puts on art exhibitons to collect money for children who are not going to get better.

I teach now, sometimes children too, certainly have occasion to see how adept national curriculums can be at producing neurotic over-or under-achieving children, and also have had occasion to see how horrible children can be to other children.

In the last two years, I have also seen and experienced more than I ever wanted to on other forum on the 'dark side' of Net interractions.

The 'planet' board has finished Pluto. Did nobody want to write anything on Chiron here? I have something on Ceres and Eris to put up at some point that includes a litle on Chiron, but it is a question I would address to everyone, just in case...........

[R4VEN]

Chiron is in my 3rd conjunct Moon by 5 degrees and as mentioned before, school was 'wounding,' so was the fact that at home neither was there much time for me, and yes, it certainly hurt.

I did get involved by chance with an organisation that puts on art exhibitons to collect money for children who are not going to get better.

I teach now, sometimes children too, certainly have occasion to see how adept national curriculums can be at producing neurotic over-or under-achieving children, and also have had occasion to see how horrible children can be to other children.

In the last two years, I have also seen and experienced more than I ever wanted to on other forum on the 'dark side' of Net interractions.

Nexus7, yours is a pretty succinct description of the Chiron in the 3rd wound, along with the working with this wound, one way of which is to work with young children. In helping these children, you not only help heal your own wounded self, but have come face-to-face with the systems which assisted and facilitated that wounding.

My observation is that in the journey through one's Chiron placement, facing the original wounding - generally in the form of some similar wounding in the present day - and feeling it, but as an adult, is the key to journeying through it.

"the 'dark side' of Net interractions".......
Is this the Chiron in Aquarius connection?

[Nexus7]

Hi Raven

I'm not a great one with children at all, though I have had a few more individual young students recently. Worth bearing in mind always that adults were children too once.

And yes, seeing the dark side of social interractions on the net is as probably as good as any a way to see the action of Chiron in Aquarius. And I did come across one person in particular who was a self-professed healer - but in fact was into, well, wounding and later on, there was worse. I have hung around goth culure quite a lot and these things tend to come as no surprise exactly. I do think the kind of society we have tends to let many people down profoundly, I think that kind of thing can be symptomatic of many other social ills, really.

[DVANZETT]

Hi everyone,

I think chiron's experience is not easy to be understood. I have checked on many sites ways for understnading and explaining Chiron, but the best i found on a book which is partial available on google books.
Link bellow:

Chiron By Barbara Hand Clow (http://books.google.com/books?id=4rnvfxrc4LwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=chiron&ei=fbrcSantCZ_AzATsneTZDg#PPP1,M1)

I hope it brings some light.
Thank you Moon Shadow for the advice. I will order the book and hopefully it will give me insight about Chiron.

[smilingsteph]

Using placidus I have chiron in the second house- taurus 11degrees
Using equal I have chiron in the third house

I must say I have not really looked into the equal house system, however I do identify better with it here...(I think taking a look into my other placements may be warrented too!)

Chiron in the second:
I do not need material comforts to feel loved, happy, comfortable....
I do not place my self worth on what I have, however sometimes having nice things is good...Not to say that I depend on them....financially I have been pretty lucky, I always get jobs (jupiter 6th house square chiron), nonetheless I do find that making money is a tough job, but has never been a real issue of stress...(one thing that is not that stressful in my life, yikes! I can say the only thing)
Chiron in the third:
I do have issues of self-worth when my family does not reciprocate love. (my sisters!)
I had a hard time speaking as a child from underlying hearing problems, which were corrected when I was 8.
I constantly get hurt when I feel as though others are never listening to me.
(chiron conjunct mercury)
I have always had trouble making myself heard!! I have to go away from a situation for a few days, think about what to say and then go to the situation, if not I end up always saying the wrong things!
I have a huge lack of self-confidence (saturn squares dont help!), and I felt as though I was never good enough, turned to my sisters for help always. I am so lucky to have them!

I now love to stand up and educate other nurses during new nurse orientations, my self-confidence is getting there...which helped when I got my degree. I am always looking to find the voices of others...
OMGosh!!!!
My niece is four years old and has been diagnosed with speech problems, one cannot understand a thing she is saying, she gets frustrated and upset! She too has chiron in the third house!!!
How great is astrology!

[Moon Shadow]

Thank you Moon Shadow for the advice. I will order the book and hopefully it will give me insight about Chiron.

Welcome DVANZETT, i hope it helps. Take a sight on google books and check how you like it.
~Blessings~

[C1]

(((chirotic!)))

MOONSHADOW wrote:

Hi everyone,

I think chiron's experience is not easy to be understood. I have checked on many sites ways for understnading and explaining Chiron, but the best i found on a book which is partial available on google books.
Link bellow:

Chiron By Barbara Hand Clow

I hope it brings some light.
__________________
"Nothing is impossible unless you think it!"


(I guess it is necessary to scroll up in this thread to MoonShadow's actual posting in order to get to the link.)

Yes, it certainly brings some light to me to read what BCH says!

Chiron return for me happened several years ago, I reckon...and I'm just now assimilating the teachings from this great healer.

I do hope someone steps forward as Nexus7 has offered, and
volunteers to write about Chiron in a focused and succinct way for
the Forum's Education Board!

This thread is a wealth of study in itself...thanks.

Nexus7 and others have recalled the Hands
(Barbara Hand Clow (BHC) and brother Robert Hand) who have
written about Chiron, and there are others. MoonShadow's link
brought me back to BHC this week and it was very enlightening.

BHC writes in her book on Chiron (I'm paraphrasing):

Chiron's placement in natal chart is a holographic mapping of a the unified field of consciousness -- Soul's formation into matter from our birth to death in this lifetime. The "chirotic point" of Chiron's placement is where dimensions intersect.

The 4th dimension is an archetype of space & time as we know it.

I'm currently deep into research on water and the galactic "motor" of electro-magnetic-water-light waves (of which our so-called physical "being" is almost entirely constructed).

The holographic nature of our existence is expressed in a unique solar/astrological/psychic awareness that is multi-dimensional.

BHC: Our access to the whole universe is by means of attunement to the solar forces because the rest of the Cosmos communicates to us through our Sun. The planets are expressions of solar consciousness.

BHC: (paraphrasing again) So, our galaxy's planets and their relative, ever-changing positions in relation to each other and to our natal charts create an electromagnetic field of information that is sent to Earth on Solar wind.

Pluto pushes to to e-v-o-l-v-e.

Uranus rules transformation.

Jupiter helps us understand Venus and Moon
and helps us "get" our Mars energy into gear in a harmonious way.

As BHC tells us in her book, CHIRON was an immortal, the mythological child of Saturn (the son of Uranus, whose partner Gaia is our living Earth soul). CHIRON has the strange centaur horse/human body because "bad dad" Saturn took the shape of a horse to rape the Sea nymph Phylria, Chiron's mom, who rejected Chiron at birth. But our Chiron work is not about bad parents. (I have changed my mind since an earlier post of mine.)

BHC reminds us that CHIRON married a water goddess and their daughter was the astrologer Thea, which means "Shining of the Moon."

Thea ascended to the stars as Pegasus, the flying horse...and Chiron became the constellation Sagittarius.

For our current moment of evolutionary experience as humans on Earth,
BHC gives us subtle clues to CHIRON:

1) BHC says that CHIRON is the guidepost to Neptune, the great dissolver and standard-bearer of the Age of Aquarius;

2) CHIRON is the bridge from Saturn to Uranus (higher awareness and illumination...also, lightning-bolt disruption of old structures so new ones can emerge);

3) A "key" to CHIRON (ruling the 6th house) is in the sextiles: 4th and 8th houses.

All the above is just to say thank you to Barbara Hand Clow.

We are holographically walking through the electromagnetic galactic
information on the CHIRON bridge...universally creating what is a brilliant
soul retrieval into the Age of Aquarius, if that makes any sense to the astrological community.

Thanks to us and to the All.

C1

[cassanra]

Interesting read, Chiron by Barbara Hand Clow...I have chiron in the 12th and she was actually right on the mark on the 'having a teacher' I joined a Gurdjieff group for 7 years which is classified as esoteric christianity and is quite practical ...in fact one of the last things that was said to me before the order moved was 'we are never practical enough' which is right on the mark ofwhat Clow says about chiron as ruler of the 6th and that those with Chiron in th 12th must do is develop that practical side (as I understand what is written) to develop greater 'mystic' experience. I may have to reread that but found it quite 'amazingly' on target.

[C1]

Hi Cassanra,

Just saying...multizillion thanks for that powerful healing message which, like an arrow, goes perfectly to the heart of the matter for me..another one, as you are, having Chiron in 12th. (My Chiron -- the only planet or anything in my chart in houses 10, 11 and 12 -- is opposite my Merc in 6h).

So...thank you!

(I'd completely forgotten that helpful CHIRON insight of BHC's,
and it really applies to me.)

:-)
C1

[C1]

...oh, and transiting Saturn half-way through my 9th house (...as if additional planetary aspects were needed to remind me of the gentle push
I'm getting toward creating practical new forms and acquiring higher learning).

Everyone has such a specific combination of planetary aspects and energies...and
I hope none of us worries or fears too much about the current flow!

:-)

C1

[cassanra]

Too funny, C1...Saturn is going through my 6th! I still have to think about that ...how being practical can help us become more mystic:) but I see its truth though it seems to be the opposite of what we imagine. And to add to the fact I have Chiron in Aquarius which makes me an "air-head":0 (according to Clow) and need to learn to keep my feet on the ground I guess...connect uranus with saturn?
Well this year is my chiron return... maybe I will have a mystic experience;) or not...hmmm...

[C1]

Hi Cassanra,

"It is what it is," some people say...and so
I'd say that you are what you are: a practitioner of mystical!

My natal Chiron @ 8* Sagittarius in 12h opposite natal Merc in Gemini in 6h (natal Taurus Sun and Venus in 5h) -- I guess puts me in the realm of wounded deep thinkers or philosophers, or something :-)

As women, aren't we all sitting in this hella messed up Mother Earth with plenty in our psyches and on our minds and in our hearts?

I'm glad I finally searched and found this thread under "Karmic Astrology" -- I'd forgotten where it was, and there are lots of Chiron threads floating around! :)

Regardless of whether we're dealing with karmic wounds or just the human condition of being spirit in a body in a crazy *&%ed-up society, the mystical, for me, is to know and feel that we are held
in a sacred place, in balance....there are other bold energies in me, regardless of the "wound"...and thank goddess!!! that
transiting Saturn is sitting and behaving himself for the moment in mid-9h
conjunct my Part of Fortune! A momentary respite...

My point is: that's how it is. All of us human beings on this Earth are holographically here, part and parcel of not only a personal wound
(our psyche demanding to come back from the underworld with gifts...and
to use those gifts!) but also,
with the Chiron return, we're transforming...

beyond the personal level of mind. To me, consciousness (heart) expansion is practical...at its best!

We have reached a point in life where we've enjoyed some planetary "kneading" and massage; we've had the benefit of years of magnetic/solar/life experience (i.e., we've been "baking")...so that by the time of our CHIRON RETURN, we're "done" -- we've
had Uranus opposition and Saturn return and Pluto square, so we're
already participating in the group healing now.

From "personal" wound to "global" healing:

-- one 12h Chiron to another --

Group hug!!!

Enjoy the coming years, and, I guess...thanks to all us Chiron returnees and everyone not yet 50, but also currently experiencing the Chiron, Neptune and Jupiter conjunct coming soon in the airy sign of Aquarius. Yippeee for the Age of Aquarius!!

Gratitude is the attitude, so many thanks to all of us for deciding to be here on Earth during this time.

:-)
C1

[Moon Shadow]

Another interesting connection to Chiron is kundalini energy...
Anyway i was observing transit of chiron on the 6th of my beloved, and make the connections to what is written on BHC book on chiron on 6th house and it makes much sense :p
I think it is the best book on enlightening on chiron experience.

:rolleyes:

[C1]

Hi Moonshadow,

Yes, for me, too, BHC resonates...Can you say what is the 6th house and/or kundalini chiron connection that you observed as it is described in BHC's book?

EJ53, I agree...yes, we're "half-baked" :-) --

and in an earlier post I even wrote that "Chiron return for me happened several years ago...and I'm just now assimilating the teachings from this great healer." (Actually, my Chiron return happened almost ten years ago!)

However, probably I am a slow learner. :-)

My sense is that many are now aware of the Chiron return sooner.

And one can prepare and consider what it is about one's "WOUND" and the Chiron return earlier in life thanks to authors and astrologers (in forums such as this).

So, maybe (...and I'm just thinking out loud now)...the Chiron return experience is integrated into both the personal and global in a way that reflects the current quickening of the experience of time itself.

Something about what BHC says and how the Sun and planets and galactic center energies are forming a pattern of conscious evolution right now...makes me think of increasing speed, like telepathic communication.

Possible?

C1
"...bake for 26,500 years"

[EJ53]

EJ53, I agree...yes, we're "half-baked" :-) --

I see.........Thank you C1........My Chiron is in Scorpio/3rd conjunct Sun and qxc Uranus in Gemini/9th on MC.......Part of that wound involves learning how to make general/impersonal comments in a way that others do not take personally......Consequently, I find myself yet again removing a forum comment (that was intended to help many) because it has upset someone........And it's frustrating!

However, this misunderstanding does demonstrate the point I had been trying to make........I remain unable to contribute effectively to groups because I have not yet learned how to "live with" my Chiron Wound.......And I believe that may be true of everyone rather than Just myself.

I am sorry for unintentionally offending you C1........and angry with myself for doing so.

EJ53:mad:

[astroman1]

Hi guys. Going to jump in and ask,

What wounds are indicated with Chiron and Jupiter in Cancer conjunct in the 10th house?

[Kwabena]

Would these links help:

http://www.aquarianage.org/west/planets/ch-nat01.html

http://www.aquarianage.org/west/planets/ch-zane.html

KWABENA

[R4VEN]

Hi guys. Going to jump in and ask,

What wounds are indicated with Chiron and Jupiter in Cancer conjunct in the 10th house? OK, I'm going to jump in here, having Chiron in 10th myself, and so have grappled with that one for some time. I'll try to put it all together, but I may not be successful....................

Chiron-Jupiter conjunction gives a person the drive to fight for what they believe to be right, to oppose injustices, to take on moral/ethic/religious causes, and to hang in there until the fight is won. Many people with this have later become martyrs or heroes - eg. Martin Luther King, Xanana Gusmao (for those of us near East Timor, he was gaoled for a very long time, in the same way as was Nelson Mandela) Whilst young, you may offend those close to you with your strong views and convictions.

It would be worth knowing your moon sign and placement, given Chiron is in Cancer..............however,
With the Chiron-in-10th-in-Cancer, you have issues surrounding feeling rejected by a parent - probably your mother - and so proving your worth and value may be a focus in your life. Your attempts to be worthy in a public way may not work out all that well until you find a reason to be achieving which is not dependent upon the reactions and/or approval of others. You may go into things with an `I'll show you!' attitude, and this can be draining, and can also lead you down paths you had not planned to go down.

You can be confused by the desire to be doing what you consider important as opposed to what family (mother?) expect of you. In some ways your perceptions of what it means to be a member of your family can (even unconsciously) direct a lot of what you do. You can be very self-protective, almost to the point of posing as someone you're not in order to `get by'.

Working with this wound will involve firstly being honest with yourself, and also in perhaps guiding and mentoring others as they try to find their way in the world. You probably have an aura about you where people trust your judgement, and rely on your support and advice. Be careful not to abuse or use this for the wrong reasons.

Not all of what I have written will apply to you, so take from it what you can.
Essentially the wound of one with Ch in the 10th is in finding a direction in life which suits you and your values - not those of anyone else.

[Moon Shadow]

Hi Moonshadow,

Yes, for me, too, BHC resonates...Can you say what is the 6th house and/or kundalini chiron connection that you observed as it is described in BHC's book?


Hi C1,

Glad you resonate to the BHC's book, so do i and seems to fit to some people i know.
I am sorry for confusing, it Chiron was transiting the 5th house not the 6th, he has natal Chiron on 6th, so here Chiron seems to help in healing spiritual/religiously, almost lost his wild/animal nature. In Aquarius, some say Chiron is in own domicile, manifesting clearly both human and animal nature in all aspects.
Chiron in Aquarius and uranus in pisces, shows a mutual reception between chiron and uranus.
Uranus seems to be responsable to awakening and rising kundalini energy, and it is obviously chiron has also a sexual influence, so do some mental connections...
The person i am talking had transiting chiron in 5th house, which is house of love, fun, games, entertaintment...this person did not had sexual relationships for years, but when chiron was transiting his 5th, aquarius, also activating other points of his natal chart, he had some sex/love as long as Chiron was in his 5th, after that he lost his sexual appetite, or not expressing it as a desire (funny, isn't it?).
Anyway from my experience, it is also important if Chiron is direct or Rx in a natal chart and perhaps in transits too. Rx natal Chiron (depending also on the aspects), do not require others to help in healing, but has to work hard in self healing, but also wounds himself easier.
This is a large topic for discussion...i will stop here for now...:)

[C1]

EJ53 said:

I see.........Thank you C1........My Chiron is in Scorpio/3rd conjunct Sun and qxc Uranus in Gemini/9th on MC.......Part of that wound involves learning how to make general/impersonal comments in a way that others do not take personally......

...but, you did succeed! My bad pun was unfortunate, perhaps, but you were clear and correct!

Your Chiron in Scorpio/3rd cj SUN qux Uranus in Gemini/9th on MC is a major chirotic energetic point where the qux tension may be felt as though the energies involved are adjusting each other.

Skeletal adjustments by a good chiropracter enable the vertebrae to align.

With CHIRON cj your Sun qux Uranus in Gemini/9th cj MC (not to mention Sun in Scorpio in 3rd house) there's a lot of focus on communicating...CHIRON is actively involved in this adjustment...I'll quote R4VEN here:



My observation is that in the journey through one's Chiron placement, facing the original wounding - generally in the form of some similar wounding in the present day - and feeling it, but as an adult, is the key to journeying through it.

I am agreeing with EJ & R4VEN, and I'd add that we each have a personal karma/fate that is associated usually with uncomfortable feelings that arise from time to time. CHIRON will help us work with the personal pain/anger wherever it attaches itself to us in this life (think: body of a horse attached to torso of a human) so we "heal" it.

MOONSHADOW said:


Chiron in Aquarius and uranus in pisces, shows a mutual reception between chiron and uranus.
Uranus seems to be responsable to awakening and rising kundalini energy, and it is obviously chiron has also a sexual influence, so do some mental connections...
The person i am talking had transiting chiron in 5th house, which is house of love, fun, games, entertaintment...this person did not had sexual relationships for years, but when chiron was transiting his 5th, aquarius, also activating other points of his natal chart, he had some sex/love as long as Chiron was in his 5th, after that he lost his sexual appetite, or not expressing it as a desire (funny, isn't it?).

Too true...how we are dealing with chiron in ourselves and each other...


Anyway from my experience, it is also important if Chiron is direct or Rx in a natal chart and perhaps in transits too. Rx natal Chiron (depending also on the aspects), do not require others to help in healing, but has to work hard in self healing, but also wounds himself easier.

That's me!

Sorry for the long post, and for not getting back sooner, but I am having a tooth ache which is really hurting and which I must deal with now...it's my
chiron/karma/fate!

Here's a link to a 3-part article regarding the coming Chiron/Jupiter/Neptune conjunction in Aquarius (opposite a generation of people born with Pluto in the last degrees of Leo):

http://www.northpointastrology.com/articles.html

Peace,

C1

[DVANZETT]

Yes the quotes make sense to me and I'm sorry it took so long to respond to all the emails I received. I was away for awhile, then I couldn't get on to the site until yesterday. How can Chiron help in making relationships better? What should I change or do to make it easier to warm up to people again. I never had problems like this until 1998. I was always outgoing, had alot of friends and great relationships with co-workers. Now I'm basically a loner and have become shy. The same way I was when I went to school from grade 1-6. Then I became popular, well liked by most and alot of fun to be around.What has happened to bring this big turnaround in my life? Can you help explain Chiron's role here? Thanks, Di

[Moon Shadow]

Hi, i just found some documents about Chiron in my system and uploaded it here. Please check the attachments.
I don't know the author of this texts, but i hope it helps.

[DVANZETT]

Thank you for your response. I will read it at the office tomorrow.

[EJ53]

.....How can Chiron help in making relationships better? What should I change or do to make it easier to warm up to people again. I never had problems like this until 1998. I was always outgoing, had alot of friends and great relationships with co-workers. Now I'm basically a loner and have become shy. The same way I was when I went to school from grade 1-6. Then I became popular, well liked by most and alot of fun to be around.What has happened to bring this big turnaround in my life? Can you help explain Chiron's role here?

Chiron might not be the problem here, D.

In you progressed chart (at 27/01/2009), you have Pisces/Aries intercepted in the 12th/6th houses respectively.......with Cancer duplicated on the 4th/5th house cusps and Capricorn duplicated on those of the 10th/11th.....which indicates that something about your current attitude to the 4th and 10th houses is adversely affecting the affairs of your 5th and 11th houses, preventing you from reaping the benefits of Pisces/Aries until resolved.

Since your progressed 4th house also contains the Mars/Saturn conjunction of your natal chart's 7th house, this is the more likely astrological "cause" of your current relationship difficulties........particularly as progressed moon is also in intercepted Pisces.

I'd consider posting your question on the "progressions" board, where this possibility can be looked at in more depth than here.

EJ:)

[Moon Shadow]

Since your progressed 4th house also contains the Mars/Saturn conjunction of your natal chart's 7th house, this is the more likely astrological "cause" of your current relationship difficulties.......

EJ:)

Hi EJ

Can you please extend a little bit the above quotation? how are progressed houses, you mean houses from the progressed chart superposed on natal chart?

Thank you.

[EJ53]

...Can you please extend a little bit the above quotation? how are progressed houses, you mean houses from the progressed chart superposed on natal chart?....

Hi Moon Shadow,

In the progressed chart, 4th cusp is 2 degrees Cancer and 5th cusp is 23 degrees Cancer.......Natal Saturn/Mars are at 18 and 21 degrees respectively of Cancer, so falling in the progressed 4th house.

I compare the Progressed Chart directly against the natal chart, for movements of both planets and points/cusps.

EJ:)

[DVANZETT]

E J 53, thanks again for the info on progressed charts. I will follow up on your kind advice. Without astrologers this would be a very sad world. Di

[DVANZETT]

Thank you Moon Shadow for the links to Chiron. Best to you .Di

[AspieTaurus]

I have Chiron in Gemini in the 7th house conjunct Venus and BML and opposite Saturn and Uranus in the 1st house, and all my life I have struggled with communicating my thoughts. I have a severe stutter and, like many people on the autism spectrum, think primarily in images, not words. The later gives me issues because I have "tip-of-the-tongue" moments a lot, not remembering the word for some basic, simple, everyday objects and it cam be very embarrassing.

[Chiron Rising]

I need some serious and immediate help here.

I have Chiron in conjunction with my ascendant in Aries, plus North node pulling against my sun (almost perfect opposition).What does that say about me?

All planets (but Saturn) are on the right side of my chart. It looks like Chiron is pulling against them as if they were inside a net. As a fisherman would do.

If anyone can please take a look at my birth chart and help me understand it better froma Chiron based perspective, it would be greatly appreciated.

I was born in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) at 18:00 (6:00PM). On September.22.1968.

I feel like Chiron is a central powerful figure in my Chart for the way it is located. And now that My Natal Chiron is under a triple transit of Uranus, Jupiter and Mercury; it seems a enormous opportunity for healing and growth that I must not miss. However, I do not have enough knowledge to take advantage of it.

PLEASE HELP.

[Svencanz]

Just going from your notes - not looking at the chart, since at work....

What was your birth like?
Chiron in Aries conjuct Asc could potentially be about a bloody birth - have seen this before.
Could also imply a "presenting wound" some scar or similar that people would notice?

Sven

[R4VEN]

Good point, Svencanz. The only person I can think of off the top of my head with Chiron on ASC had the umbilical cord around his neck, and so his birth was somewhat touch & go.

The sign Chiron is in will be significant, also. In your case, Aries. How does this manifest in your life? Generally the Chiron in Aries wound is about feeling a strong drive to have to prove one's worth, like: I am worthy of being alive, I am. Look at how successful/hard-working/wealthy/wise I am!! i.e. the Chiron in Aries wound can generally be described as the wound of (generally unconsciously) feeling that you have no right to be here. Aries ASC is generally very dynamic/active, so you may not have much of an idea about how it is this wound manifests for you.

The child I mentioned in the opening paragraph is now 10, has Ch & ASC in Sagittarius, and is always pushing his parents' boundaries to do with what it is they believe in - and believe to be `right'.

Haven't looked at your chart (busy with other things) but by what you describe, I would suggest that Chiron is a very significant part of your overall chart, and so the `wound' itself will no doubt be highlighted as Uranus - in particular - forms a conjunction with your Ch-ASC. Uranus alays brings the unexpected, but with (sometimes) hidden benefits.

[Chiron Rising]

Just going from your notes - not looking at the chart, since at work....

What was your birth like?
Chiron in Aries conjuct Asc could potentially be about a bloody birth - have seen this before.
Could also imply a "presenting wound" some scar or similar that people would notice?

Sven

My birth was through an unplanned Cesarian. I wasn't coming out. SO the doctors decided to cut me off before I asphyxiated. Someone once said, that was a sign that I was refusing to reincarnate.

[Chiron Rising]

The sign Chiron is in will be significant, also. In your case, Aries. How does this manifest in your life? Generally the Chiron in Aries wound is about feeling a strong drive to have to prove one's worth, like: I am worthy of being alive, I am. Look at how successful/hard-working/wealthy/wise I am!! i.e. the Chiron in Aries wound can generally be described as the wound of (generally unconsciously) feeling that you have no right to be here. Aries ASC is generally very dynamic/active, so you may not have much of an idea about how it is this wound manifests for you.



I am not active neither dynamic. I have low energy. And I feel that I am a complete failure, because I haven't lived my full potential. Hopefully, this triple transit will bring me a good surprise. I long for becoming the person I am meant to be, even though I have no idea how that person is.

[R4VEN]

My birth was through an unplanned Cesarian. I wasn't coming out. SO the doctors decided to cut me off before I asphyxiated. Someone once said, that was a sign that I was refusing to reincarnate.
The 10-yr-old boy I mentioned in my above post did not want to be born at all. His grandmother is my best friend, as is very sensitive, and she picked this up while his birth was in progress.

Much of what Chiron represents tends to be unconscious, and so will be `dealt with' quite effectively by us, even without conscious input. It is only when we get stuck and unable to move, or petrified and unable to act that the conscious mind has a real need to enter into things.

[Chiron Rising]

The 10-yr-old boy I mentioned in my above post did not want to be born at all. His grandmother is my best friend, as is very sensitive, and she picked this up while his birth was in progress.

Much of what Chiron represents tends to be unconscious, and so will be `dealt with' quite effectively by us, even without conscious input. It is only when we get stuck and unable to move, or petrified and unable to act that the conscious mind has a real need to enter into things.

Thank you for coming out of your way to answer my question.

Continuing what I was saying above. Whatever the explanation is, I just can't find fulfillment, motivation and my mission in life. For the position that he occupies in my Natal chart, I think Chiron is the key (as Chiron symbols shows) for the solution. With all the pulling against the other planets, the load is very heavy, and Chiron is getting exhausted, and all the work seems meaningless.

Thanks again.

[R4VEN]

For the position that he occupies in my Natal chart, I think Chiron is the key (as Chiron symbols shows) for the solution. With all the pulling against the other planets, the load is very heavy, and Chiron is getting exhausted, and all the work seems meaningless.

Thanks again.
Chiron Rising, I think that your Chiron position is important, but perhaps not the most significant one on your chart.

You have a Yod formed by your Neptune-Pluto sextile and with both these planets being inconjunct to your natal Saturn. This is the reason that you feel that nothing is working in your life. With Mercury-Venus also being opposite this Saturn that will colour your thoughts so much so that you feel like a failure, even when you are not.

There are some quite useful (but very long) threads on AW in relation to Yods - how they work, what their effects may be. I'd suggest that you do some reading................

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10310&highlight=Yods+unaspected+planets
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15271&highlight=Yods+unaspected+planets
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=827&highlight=Yods+unaspected+planets

I think you will relate to what other forum users have found about how a Yod colours their lives.

PS: This thread may be the best place to begin..........

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19016&highlight=Yods+unaspected+planets

[R4VEN]

Further to what I wrote above.......................

My niece was born a month before you, and possesses the same Yod (different houses, though) on her natal. From beginning her working life as a professional, she has had `itchy feet' all her life. A couple of short-term marriages, numerous (and I mean numerous) changes in career, she has travelled a lot and lived life, even though she has nothing material to show for it - no husband, no kids, no money, no house, no car, etc, etc.

In her case, I believe that this has been the best way for her to live her life. She would have been bored with a husband, kids, house in the `burbs, house by the beach, large retirement fund. She learned early in her life that she lives & breathes - even thrives - by challenging herself. She does not judge her life or her choices - VERY important - and she is at this stage in her life, very happy.

Those with Yods - or unaspected planets - in their natal have a different, and unique, path to tread in life. Do not judge your life by the lives and choices of others.

[Chiron Rising]

You have a Yod formed by your Neptune-Pluto sextile and with both these planets being inconjunct to your natal Saturn. This is the reason that you feel that nothing is working in your life. With Mercury-Venus also being opposite this Saturn that will colour your thoughts so much so that you feel like a failure, even when you are not.

Thank you very much, R4ven.

This piece of information is actually very good news for me. I had never heard of the Yod before. Now, I know that it is like a giant flashing neon sign pointing to what I must choose to do. In my case that would be whatever Saturn in Aries and 1st house means.

I feel that I am lucky because my Saturn is part of a "magic trinity" (I don't know what else to call the arrangement) too, with my Mars and Midheaven. I mean, they relate to each other in trines forming a triangle. I believe that the "magic trinity" gives me a lot of resources to realize the potential the Yod.

Now. I have to find how to develop the potential of this Saturn of mine. It may require a Herculean work... or better Promethean (the myth of Prometheus could be a metaphor for Saturn in the 1st house in Aries, I believe). At least, now, because of your help I know where to work towards.

Thank you very much again.

[Chirongirl]

My feeling is with Pisces that Chiron speaks to a loss of faith, this is usually exposed through issues with victimisation, in turn leading to a "why me?" moment which itself opens the pathway to healing through really exploring "actually, good question: why me?" We transform ourselves from being a random victim of blind happenstance into an integral part of a greater and transcendant scheme. Thus it defies logic, defies a breaking down type of understanding (as with the polarity of Virgo).

For you, there is something of that loss of faith connected with the parental axis, something to do with your father being the trigger for a spiritual crisis (maybe the mother of course, 10th/4th conundrum), possibly through being disinterested in you, possibly because he was more interested in his other children or too tied up with his career. Actually, both of these themes seem to be true. Possibly he had an extra-marital affair that was very upsetting for you and caused you to reassess your faith in the benefic nature of the Universe.

Possibly :) I hate trying to interpret things for other astrologers, because just by dint of being an astrologer, a person tends to be slightly more evolved than the run-of-the-mill type, but I am sure you understand that already.


Your post helped me to find my Chiron wounds. Thanks a lot for this post!

[MaeMae]

I've been told my notion of Chiron is radical. I don't think it is.
In order for Chiron to heal others, I believe the wound in oneself' has to remain open. It is the impetus for healing, intimate knowledge of the pain.

Like a scab on heal, Chiron gets rubbed and re-opens with the other wounded. The pain resurfaces, the treatment and care is undertaken to re-heal it, and then it is rubbed again. It's a cycle.

I don't believe Chiron is a holy remedy in a chart. It is an ongoing point of suffering, which, until one completely closes the wound, covers it up with protective coatings, will continue to cause pain and suffering.

I believe, and from experience, know, that when I let my need to heal others assume precidence over my own wound, I will feel the hurt once more. I have come to the conclusion that it's best left to somebody else.

(Chiron conj. SNode Pisces in 8th)

[C0rnholio]

I've been told my notion of Chiron is radical. I don't think it is.
In order for Chiron to heal others, I believe the wound in oneself' has to remain open. It is the impetus for healing, intimate knowledge of the pain.

Like a scab on heal, Chiron gets rubbed and re-opens with the other wounded. The pain resurfaces, the treatment and care is undertaken to re-heal it, and then it is rubbed again. It's a cycle.

I don't believe Chiron is a holy remedy in a chart. It is an ongoing point of suffering, which, until one completely closes the wound, covers it up with protective coatings, will continue to cause pain and suffering.

I believe, and from experience, know, that when I let my need to heal others assume precidence over my own wound, I will feel the hurt once more. I have come to the conclusion that it's best left to somebody else.

(Chiron conj. SNode Pisces in 8th)
I think your view of Chiron is very spot-on. It's like a scab that itches, never heals, but if you scratch it then it feels good but it also bleeds. Yours is a special case though, being conjunct the South Node. No activation of the South Node brings any benefits or long-term satisfaction.

[R4VEN]

Yours is a special case though, being conjunct the South Node. No activation of the South Node brings any benefits or long-term satisfaction.
Good point, C0rnholio, and I agree totally. Especially with SN conj Chiron in Pisces, the wound which is brought in is profound and deep. The wounding is felt at the cellular level, and even outwards to the generational level.

I also agree with what MaeMae observes about the nature of Chiron. I have Chiron in Scorpio, and at 62 I am still raw in that place which senses any attempts at control from outside of me. It will most likely always be there, but I am able to live with it. It renders me very sensitive/aware and suspicious of those who desire control over others.

[MaeMae]

quote from R4ven - "I also agree with what MaeMae observes about the nature of Chiron. I have Chiron in Scorpio, and at 62 I am still raw in that place which senses any attempts at control from outside of me. It will most likely always be there, but I am able to live with it. It renders me very sensitive/aware and suspicious of those who desire control over others"R4ven- this is interesting to me. I have generally assumed that this kind of awareness you speak of, some of which we discussed in the Neptune/Chiron thread, was due to the psychological principle of projection, which I've always viewed from a Sun in 7th matter. As I think about what you write, it starts to take on a new light.

As COrnholio writes about planets conjunct South Node, nothing beneficial in it, is a good indicator that this Chironic type of healing is not a path forward in my instance.

[nuthatch]

I've been told my notion of Chiron is radical. I don't think it is.
In order for Chiron to heal others, I believe the wound in oneself' has to remain open. It is the impetus for healing, intimate knowledge of the pain.

Like a scab on heal, Chiron gets rubbed and re-opens with the other wounded. The pain resurfaces, the treatment and care is undertaken to re-heal it, and then it is rubbed again. It's a cycle.

I don't believe Chiron is a holy remedy in a chart. It is an ongoing point of suffering, which, until one completely closes the wound, covers it up with protective coatings, will continue to cause pain and suffering.

I believe, and from experience, know, that when I let my need to heal others assume precidence over my own wound, I will feel the hurt once more. I have come to the conclusion that it's best left to somebody else.

(Chiron conj. SNode Pisces in 8th)

I like this view of it. It reminds me of Pema Chödrön's definition of the Buddhist concept of bodhichitta, which she compares to the rawness of a broken heart that allows us to feel compassion for others in our situation and even others not in our situation. If we cease to feel that pain, that primal anguish so deep it feels physical (and sometimes is), we no longer have that common ground with others. And it's just part of being human, I think: having some irreparable brokenness that we can't quite control or even name, however in control we may feel of everything else.

My Chiron is in Gemini. For me, it's related to the pain of being (or feeling) unable to express myself, that what I communicate of myself is not what others perceive of me. I actually study communication in school now, and one of my focuses is on factors that inhibit the feeling that communication is possible in a given context--whether it's ideological conflicts or learning differences or social disadvantages. Frustrated communication and the anger and helplessness that can come with it is, somehow, going to be my life's work.

I also find it interesting that my father's Sun is in Gemini, and I've had a very difficult relationship with him my entire life. We spoke easily about intellectual topics, but we had a lot of emotional problems, and that's a major source of pain and doubt and fear for me.

But as much as I often feel inarticulate or powerless or ignored, I've come to feel that I don't ever want this wound to go away.

[R4VEN]

I also find it interesting that my father's Sun is in Gemini, and I've had a very difficult relationship with him my entire life. We spoke easily about intellectual topics, but we had a lot of emotional problems, and that's a major source of pain and doubt and fear for me.

But as much as I often feel inarticulate or powerless or ignored, I've come to feel that I don't ever want this wound to go away.
Your post is very well-expressed, nuthatch.

Like you, my Chiron sign - Scorpio - was shared by my father's sun sign, and his sun was conjunct my natal Chiron. At the time of his death, tr Pluto was very closely squaring my own Sun/Pluto MP. I am still in the process of unravelling the complex web of the outcomes of his time on earth, and how this has and still affects those of us who came after. Control, manipulation, lies, deceit - all regularly perpetrated by this very powerless man.

[MaeMae]

Nuthatch -

The fear of reopening a wound is a very natural response. We know what the pain feels like once it's been re-opened or scratched. I think Chiron lacks the learning gene on that one. Often re-looking for trouble because it's the only thing it understands - rut producing, actually.

My understanding grows consistently regarding chiron - much of a libra & piscces influenced planet- put the fear ahead of oneself - certainly we won't die from it, we know it too well - but will it ever help us to grow and thrive?