Bullying

[Yoi]

What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.

[Neptune Rising]

Hi Yoi

Maybe one aspect is Pluto square Saturn. I think there is a lot of power there and if its not owned by the owner of that aspect, then someone else will use it against them...

NR

[Wilmingtonian]

I might also look for problems in the 11th house. The bullied are often those who seek acceptance from a peer group but somehow fall short of it.

[aquarius7000]

What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.
Bullying can also be triggered by a powerful Scorpio sign and/or house (8) occpancy. If Pluto (=power, control, manilpulation) is either placed in the outer world houses like 10 or 11 or even 1 (your own house), and negatively aspected (through Mars or Saturn esp), then such tendencies exist, and if there's a Jupiter also involved then tendencies are enhanced.
Pluto = power, control, manilpulation; the house it is in itself and/or the houses of the planets it adversely effects, is where we tendentially exercise Pluto's 'qualities'.

[Rasalhague]

Actually I was a victim of bullying in elementary mostly. Highschool I just kept to my own. College is actually where I made my first friends that are still with me today. I never bullied others. My 8th house is heavily occupied: Sun, Moon, Merc, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Pluto (bordering 9th though). I find it dangerous to attribute poorer social skills to those that are bullied (Yoi). Though I'm sure something is 'lacking', even I wouldn't have the word to describe what it exactly is. So I understand where you're coming from. Though a lot of my planets remain in the 8th house, a lot of them are in libra. Whatever you do, just be careful to point out people based on this as 'on the bullying side' or 'the bullied'.

I think that Wilmingtonian has a point, I might want to add that I think it is the opposite that has the same effect. People that don't seem to seek acceptance nor demand it from others envoke the same mechanism (I'd look for a strong Uranus or freely placed Sun). A lesser degree of demand in this area is often not understood and it is a very Uranian quality. For their emotional security (4) people like knowing others 'look asif' they are dependent on them, making the environment stable and secure. Anyone that is not in their eyes displaying a dependency on their grace can be perceived as a threat. We could argue whether interdependency is part of social skills and group relations (11). There are probably very good reasons to include it if it is in final belief only dependency is the glue that holds groups of people together. Reading this I know it will create an eerie uncomfortable feeling in your gut no matter how positive you stand on the subject. This is probably where it all starts. I'd look in the direction of house 4 to see what's going on with the bullied / the bully.

Sorry if I seem somewhat disagreeable, but I had to share my story (and thoughts) on the subject.

[lillyjgc]

Yoi, (et al)
I have observed, in the natal charts of those who claim to have been bullied, planets in signs where they are not strong-especially mars.In Libra and cancer, mars can be somewhat ineffective and mars does involve our defensive actions.
However, one could argue that almost, if not all, of the planets could potentially be involved in configurations that cause the native to be ineffectual in defending him/herself.
A major problem I have encountered is difficulty in determining whether or not the native has been the subject of bullying or the perpetrator of it.I have seen a mars square pluto aspect play out *both ways*.
In order to determine the strength of the native as a whole being, one must consider the whole chart.No aspect plays out in isolation of any other aspect.
I would expect to see Chiron afflicted in the chart of a bullying victim-yet I have seen this in the chart of a bully also-.
Some people love to be the *victim*-or to perceive themselves that way.This can be effectively projected onto others, and the fulfilment of the *script* occurs in the synastry between *victim* and *perpetrator*.
Also a person can be a bully in one context and a victim in another.
cheers, Lillyjgc

[Lin]

I think this is a great subject and if some people who were bullied in primary school would post their birth data, someone might take up the challenge of drawing the charts and seeing what they had in common.

I was bullied at home (by parents) but never in school. I sometimes wondered why, as I was a bit shy, but I was also taller than most of my classmates in grade school and also have Scorpio rising..LOL.... that might have had something to do with bullies targeting other girls and not me. I was a little overweight also during the years of 5th grade through 10th, but rarely was this mentioned. However, I went to school many years ago and it's possible that today I WOULD be a target.

Women I worked with later in my life would often say they were sexually harrassed, but again, I think my Scorpio rising and Mars near my MC sort of made men I worked with think twice before trying that with me.

I do remember the first week of one job in a brokerage house, where I was a secretary, one of the brokers taking one look at me and asking, bluntly, "YES? or NO?" and I said NO!!! And that was that. I might have been intimidated had I been younger, but as it was, it was the exact right answer, and very fast.... I never gave myself time to think about it. NO was my first word as a baby. LOL.....
LIN

[Yoi]

Hi Rasalhague,

The reason why I put in lack of social skills is because practically every article I have read about bullying cites the lack of social skills of the victim as one of the chief (but not sole) reasons for bullying. Of course it is no excuse for the bully but they does seem to be a general perception that this is one of the main reasons why certain kids get singled out for bullying. Of course I haven't had much personal experience with bullying myself and the articles could be wrong...

Just speaking from my limited experience - I disagree that people who don't seek acceptance or demand it (e.g. strong Sun, Uranus) tend to provoke the same mechanism that causes bullying. One of my best friends was like this in school. She came from a very unconventional background, openly took on the "cool" crowd and she not only did not suffer any repercussions she got a lot of friends and was the centre of a large social group, including some of the "cool" crowd. I would say her popularity ended up being equal to the cool crowd. Not that she cared. If people abandoned her because they didn't like her taking on the cool crowd she wouldn't have cared. Accept me as I am or don't - I don't care. I know her well and I know this wasn't an act. It was just the way she is. I don't think it is so much the rejection of the individual of the group that causes bullying (in fact this could even be considered "cool" depending on the individual) as it is the rejection of the individual *by* the group. Given this, putting an emphasis on House 11 may be correct. If you are accepted or even embraced by the group you can be as individualistic, weird, a loner or even as disagreeable as you like (think of some of today's celebrities...). It's hard to describe, but you know if you like someone you can more easily excuse their bad sides and mistakes but if you don't like someone the exact same issues are harder to tolerate? In the end it may come down to just like/dislike on a group-wide basis.

I would also look at the 10th house as a lot of bullying is done by authority figures e.g. teachers, bosses and also one could argue that it is the lack of an authority figure stepping in and stopping bullying that could contribute to it continuing.

[Neptune Rising]

I was bullied at school, primary and secondary, my chart details are in my signature. I've been studying a bit about Saturn lately and have the following aspects that may have contributed to my bullying:
Saturn inconjunct with Venus
Saturn trine Moon

I think, Saturn inconjunct Venus means I dislike the female aspect of myself, or had difficulties with this until I matured enough to see this. So because I could not accept or was uncomfortable with this part of myself, I attracted bullying from people to confirm my negative beliefs about myself (if that makes sense..). In secondary school the bullying was only from a group of girls. It could also be because I seeked approval from others, also the opposite sex, to prove my beliefs about myself wrong.

And Moon trine Saturn, not so sure about that one, could show a neediness that attracted bullies.

NR

[23]

Well I kind of got picked on a lot at school for being odd and different. I was a loner. I didn't stand up for myself as I couldn't be bothered to and had oddly low self-confidence (sun opp sat) but thought that I was better than them and thus, never bothered to gain social acceptance. I also got bullied at work, by that stage, I developed confidence, and although this person kept on bullying me (and others), I think I showed them. I think the reason why attracted it though was because people see me as nice and a pushover. Things like asc trine nep, jup trine nep, chiron in 1st, a pathetic saturn, libra moon must make me look like a softie.

My details are:
Sun/merc rx - Aqu/10
Uranus Sco/7
Moon/pluto rx Libra/7
Venus sag/9 (unaspected)
Jupiter 1st (conj AC)
Chiron 1st
Saturn rx Cancer anarectic
Neptune sag/8th

Aspects
1: Neptune (Sag) Sex [Lib] Pluto - sep 1:31' - power: 63.05
2: Mars (Gem) Opp (Sag) Neptune - sep 1:32' - power: 38.10
3: Jupiter (Ari) Opp [Lib] Pluto - sep 6:09' - power: 28.88
4: Jupiter (Ari) Tri (Sag) Neptune - sep 4:37' - power: 27.25
5: Mars (Gem) Tri [Lib] Pluto - sep 3:04' - power: 26.00
6: Saturn [Can] Squ (Sco) Uranus - sep 7:40' - power: 16.33
7: Sun (Aqu) Opp [Can] Saturn - sep 2:52' - power: 12.48
8: Mars (Gem) Sex (Ari) Jupiter - sep 3:05' - power: 10.94
9: Sun (Aqu) Squ (Sco) Uranus - app 4:47' - power: 10.43
10: Mercury [Aqu] Opp [Can] Saturn - app 3:13' - power: 9.50.
11: Mercury [Aqu] Squ (Sco) Uranus - sep 4:26' - power: 8.91
12: Sun (Aqu) Con [Aqu] Mercury - app 0:21' - power: 4.83
13: Moon (Lib) Opp (Ari) Jupiter - sep 2:48' - power: 4.32
14: Venus (Sag) Tri (Ari) Jupiter - sep 8:16' - power: 1.75
15: Moon (Lib) Con [Lib] Pluto - sep 8:57' - power: 1.31
16: Mercury [Aqu] Tri [Lib] Pluto - sep 9:09' - power: 1.27
17: Moon (Lib) Tri (Gem) Mars - sep 5:53' - power: 1.23
18: Moon (Lib) Squ [Can] Saturn - app 8:38' - power: 0.96
19: Sun (Aqu) Tri [Lib] Pluto - app 9:30' - power: 0.94
20: Moon (Lib) Sex (Sag) Venus - app 5:28' - power: 0.12

[gaer]

Actually I was a victim of bullying in elementary mostly. Highschool I just kept to my own. College is actually where I made my first friends that are still with me today. I never bullied others. My 8th house is heavily occupied: Sun, Moon, Merc, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Pluto (bordering 9th though).

That's strange, because using the data you provided, I see Pluto in the 9th. AC is 10Cap48. I must have made an error.

Your Sun, if I have the right data, appears to be unaspected when considering major aspects. But let me make sure if my data is correct before making any more guesses.

I think that all of us have the potential to be bullied or to bully, but most of us develop boundaries that allow us to protect ourselves and self-control to keep from being unfair or unkind to other people, even in anger. At least most of the time.

Any indication of lack of self-confidence could potentially cause someone to be pushed around or bullied. In addition, when people are outsiders and are not confident about being that way, they may attract abuse when young before developing "protections" to guard themselves, as they get older.

I was such a person, and when I was very young, I didn't realize I appeared different. So I was a target. In a fairly short amount of time (before 6th grade) I realized I was vulnerable and learned to protect myself by keeping most of my feelings and thoughts to myself.

I find it dangerous to attribute poorer social skills to those that are bullied (Yoi). Though I'm sure something is 'lacking', even I wouldn't have the word to describe what it exactly is.

"Social skills" may be no more than the ability to sense how other people see us and the experience to filter what we project so that we are able to protect ourselves. I would include under "social skills" being able to intuit which people I can trust and which would use my honesty as a weapon or tool to manipulate, dominate or discredit me. I had to develop those skills.


Sorry if I seem somewhat disagreeable, but I had to share my story (and thoughts) on the subject.

I didn't see anything disagreeable about what you said.

Gaer

[pudinnpop]

my daughter gets bullied alot and has poor social skills.She also has a very controlling grandmother whos taught her to be afraid of everything.My daughter is picked on daily at school and has no freinds at all..She plays by herself.Only seems to get along with children younger then her.Its all very sad.When i try to get her new freinds she seems to turn them off because she has been so spoiled by her grandmother and told so many wrong things,that she simply cannot relate.

This has been goin on since shes been born.grandmother another topic(shes extremly mentally ill),but needless to say shes a fearmonnger and it sems her lessons have held on tighht to my daughter.

At any rate my daughter is behind socially and has regressed mentally..The courts will not take away visitations to the grandmother,but..it seems i may be in for some luck soon after 11 years of battle...Ms grandma may finnaly be stopped..

My daughters chart would be a good refrence for bullying but i will not post it.If anyone cares to see it send me a message.

Bullying hurts big time and it damages and scars and as a parent of a child whos is bullied on a daily basis,i know and see the effects of it:(

[Natasha]

Its an interesting and complex subject and many different planetary configurations could set us up for bullying
But a few ideas came to my mind - some propted by prior posts
- Often there is a polarity with an astrological signature eg the signature can indicate one who is bullied or could bully
- following from that it is possible that others may sense our power when its unacknowledged by us. THose others may rise to seeminly protect themselves from our power or try to take that power from us.
- I agree with prior posters that when one has some powerful signatures in our chart like Pluto in aspect to luminaries, Saturn Pluto in aspect, a stellium in the 8th etc we may feel very visible

[lillyjgc]

Raselhague,
I've had a look at your chart too- I notice pluto is part of a yod that apexes with Chiron in Taurus..You also have mars closely conjunct your node in the seventh house-of others, also enemies who are known to you.Mars rules both your third house of mental activity (among other things) but also communication.Mars also rules your tenth house of career/reputation/interactions with authorities.Uranus is in that house (using placidus cusps) and opposite chiron.
As you have experienced being bullied (and honestly I think we *all* have to some degree!) maybe it is these aspects that need to be considered,
Cheers, lillyjgc

[aquarius7000]

- following from that it is possible that others may sense our power when its unacknowledged by us. THose others may rise to seeminly protect themselves from our power or try to take that power from us.
- I agree with prior posters that when one has some powerful signatures in our chart like Pluto in aspect to luminaries, Saturn Pluto in aspect, a stellium in the 8th etc we may feel very visible

I can only endorse, what Natasha has very aptly said, on my own account.
I have always been completely confused about why people (mostly women) get jealous and even go on the defensive (and then attack) in my case. I have a powerful Pluto squaring my Moon conjunct Mars. To crown it all, I have a Leo Rising... (check out the Thread: Leo Rising).
So it doesn't matter, if I consider; no, even believe myself to be a friendly, do-good and help-all soul because people actually tell me in my face that I come across as very powerful (only I know my deep-ingrained fears) :confused: and all-present person (and I'm of average height and of a narrow-bone structure, so it's not the stature; Pluto shines through ;)

[Amit89]

Intresting thread.

I got picked on at high school, mainly in my latter years. I had a speech problem and this was the sole reason I got picked on. I also got picked on outside of school as well. I have pluto (scorpio) in house 3, opposing moon (taurus) in house 8. Pluto was also squaring mars (leo) in house 11 and moon sqauring mars, so this formed a t-square. I was shy at school and timid, I also had no self confidence and was very defensive, this is because I feared that something might happen to me if I told anyone. I shifted the power to them.

Now I'm older and more mature, I'v built a lot of self confidence and I'v transformed. I'm not any more defensive and I'm much more stronger.

If anyone wants to have a look at my birth chart:

DOB: 28/06/1989
Time: 11.28am
Place: Birmingham, England

[Hey]

my daughter gets bullied alot and has poor social skills.She also has a very controlling grandmother whos taught her to be afraid of everything.My daughter is picked on daily at school and has no freinds at all..She plays by herself.Only seems to get along with children younger then her.Its all very sad.When i try to get her new freinds she seems to turn them off because she has been so spoiled by her grandmother and told so many wrong things,that she simply cannot relate.

This has been goin on since shes been born.grandmother another topic(shes extremly mentally ill),but needless to say shes a fearmonnger and it sems her lessons have held on tighht to my daughter.

At any rate my daughter is behind socially and has regressed mentally..The courts will not take away visitations to the grandmother,but..it seems i may be in for some luck soon after 11 years of battle...Ms grandma may finnaly be stopped..

My daughters chart would be a good refrence for bullying but i will not post it.If anyone cares to see it send me a message.

Bullying hurts big time and it damages and scars and as a parent of a child whos is bullied on a daily basis,i know and see the effects of it:(


Uhh, geeze. Maybe you should get her away from her grandmother!
You're hurting your daughter by putting her near that woman.

[Michael]

I was bullied at school because I was different, and my father also suffered the same fate as a kid. Now, I am scared of children.

[Hey]

I know someone with Mars square Pluto, and Pluto conjucts the Ascendant, in the first house. He'll argue at the drop of a hat. It's impossible to have a conversation with him because he finds everything annoying. It's best if I stay away. He's just trouble.
Mars square ascendant can have a bullying problem. Mars opposition ascendant in the seventh house can have bullying problems in relationships. Mars opposition Midheaven, or in the fourth house, can be bad for the home. Fights with your siblings, breaking your furniture, possibly.
Mars square Saturn can hurt others without realizing it, I hear. I'd agree.

[Hey]

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.

[23]

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.

More like wounded! Look at my stuff above.

Is there any more opinions on bullies themselves?

The work bully which I put up with was gem sun/pisces moon (inner conflict) with mars conj saturn and merc squ mars. Shame I don't know what time they're born.

[aquarius7000]

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.
Yes, that's quite right, I've also noticed this in many charts. Currently the bullier (the person bullying others) at my place of work also has Chiron (in Taurus) though technically still in 12, but very close to the ASC, though unaspected.
Bur she also has Sun, Mars and Venus all in 12, so she should be making many enemies, thanks to her attitude, shouldn't she?

[Hey]

I see it in one person. Someone I know has Chiron conjunct the ascendant in Gemini, and she verbally abuses everyone. She's made quite a few enemies along the way, including her poor family. Her frequent phrase is, "Are you stupid?"
I'd say she's quite successful at what she does.

[pudinnpop]

um no.....ive tried for years in the courts...they will not take vistations away..But like i said theres a new day comin and i may be able to get the visits lessened.

[zekar]

Being bullied is a self-esteem & social acceptance thing.
This means look all things Leo.

[Miss Saturn]

Yes I think it can be a social issue sometimes with bullying. I was wondering the other day what makes people popular, I was thinking more Sagittarius and Jupiter perhaps. I was only thinking this because I do wonder why some children are popular while others are cast out and bullied. I was bullied when I was younger, and my teenage years were ****. My sister was not and she has a more Sagittarian chart, her personality was more outgoing, I think my Sun/Saturn across the Asc/Dsc axis, really affected my self esteem, I could never come out of myself. Although I had 4 good friends at school, so I wasn't totally alone. I do have Jupiter in Leo 11th what happened to my many gazillion friends, Jupiter expands doesn't it :rolleyes:. I have a few planets in Pisces, which I think overall described my weaker personality.

[zekar]

expansion and positive energy are not exactly the same thing. think of the movie Akira. dude keeps expanding and ends up destroying everything in his path. people fear that, they run away. Jupiter in Taurus might be more favorable, i.e. financial expansion.

also, do you have any aspects to Jupiter?
and where is your Moon?

[Miss Saturn]

Hi Zekar :) ,

Jupiter squares Chiron in Taurus in 9th, opposes Venus in Capricorn in the 5th. Trines, Moon/Mercury in the 7th and trines Uranus in the 3rd.

[aquarius7000]

expansion and positive energy are not exactly the same thing. think of the movie Akira. dude keeps expanding and ends up destroying everything in his path. people fear that, they run away. Jupiter in Taurus might be more favorable, i.e. financial expansion.

also, do you have any aspects to Jupiter?
and where is your Moon?
Yes, Moon's placement, I think is very important when it comes to social integration and acceptance -> a 2-way street. I've noticed that Airy Moons and those in Fire signs do very well in this regard (I have an Earth Monn & that's in Capricorn, it can make you lonely)

Also, look for if any & what planets are there in 11. Venus, Moon, Sun, Jup might be very helpful in making one popular (menaing well-liked) in his social circle. A Saturn on the other hand (as in my chart :( ) might bring about the reverse effect.

[Miss Saturn]

Actually the more I think about what you said Zekar your right, Jupiter in Leo 11th does get self inflated, but I also feel the sting of loss of self confidence and self worth probably due to Chiron squaring Jupiter, and Jupiter being disposited by the Sun which is opposed Saturn. It is a problem at times, especially in group situations. I have lots of positive feelings, and energy for people but end up always feeling rejected. A lot of it is due to me going overboard at times and I do more harm than good.

P.S I will see what the movie is about. :)

Is this the film Akira (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC-QM8W0kx4&NR=1)

[23]

Based on previous comments, I have moon in libra, jupiter conj asc (1st) and was still picked on. I think it had to with my sun-saturn-uranus t-square where I did not seek social acceptance/low self-confidence behind my veil of Aries AC. I also have chiron in the 1st. I have absolutely no leo in the chart as well.

[aquarius7000]

Based on previous comments, I have moon in libra, jupiter conj asc (1st) and was still picked on. I think it had to with my sun-saturn-uranus t-square where I did not seek social acceptance/low self-confidence behind my veil of Aries AC. I meant that, in general an air/fire sign Moon helps you show your emotions/ feelings more openly & makes one more of an extrovert, so others find it easier to relate to you etc.
A t-square in itself is a difficult combination of aspects as it indicates the need to overcome many obstacles. Also, over a longer span of time, it is the higher octave planets (like Saturn, Uranus, Nept, Pluto) that cause deeper problems and have a more intense effect. Also, they they are stronger than an airy (Libra) Moon, which alone could hardly have helped you in your situation. You have quite a challenging T-Sq. directly involving your Sun.
I also have chiron in the 1st. I have absolutely no leo in the chart as well.
Here's an excerpt on Chiron in 1. Think, it accounts for a lot in your case..

Chiron is associated with the emotional wounds we receive early on in our lives. The sign Chiron is in will dominate but the house placing will show in which area the personality is motivated and into which they will put their efforts. In the first house, it may indicate a journey of self-discovery. Possibly, there were restrictions in early childhood that will have had the effect on you of either retreating into yourself or having to fight to be noticed. There will be a need to find personal meaning in existence. Some will do this by being overly aggressive, others by withdrawing.

//aquarius7000

[Miss Saturn]

Thanks for your thoughts 23. Lots of other things in the chart can really affect other natal placements, which are usually seen as positive or social, so the bigger picture of the chart is always needed. :)

[zekar]

23, everyone has leo in the chart somewhere. i wonder where he comes into play in your chart, as well as the 5th house overlay...

aquarius7000, i agree about the Moon being important as well, especially Moons in Leo or Aries, where attention is an emotional need.

Miss Saturn, yes that is the movie, watch it right away ;)

[Miss Saturn]

Thanks Zekar :) .

[zekar]

23, your T-square is definitely significant but i don't see how it's indicative of feeling bullied. on the other hand, a more understandable social anxiety might come from having Libra Moon and Aries Rising. The fact that they are in opposition to each other causes a lot of friction between your emotional needs and how you'd like to be viewed by the world. The Moon wants you to relax and enjoy life while your ascendent wants you to be a go-getter.

[23]

23, everyone has leo in the chart somewhere. i wonder where he comes into play in your chart, as well as the 5th house overlay...

Sorry I'll rephrase that. I don't have any planets, asteroids or major points in leo. Leo rules my 5th house and you can see by the sun what mess it is in!

And yes, Aries AC opp Libra moon does not help! I certainly did not appease others at school but at home and later on in life I did. I got told by someone that I wanted everyone to like me. That really hit home and since then, I've definitely have been conscious about it and have been more self-focused rather than worrying about others. I think it was partially aggravated by the lunar return I had at the time. I also heard that a 7th house moon and planets really makes you concerned with what others think and feel about you.

Edit - The t-squ involves a sun-saturn oppostion - low self-esteem, surely bullies would pick up on that.

[23]

Actually I had a few more ideas when I had my morning shower just then.

I must add that the bully that I dealt with at work that I mentioned a few posts back was someone I dealt with during my lunar return. I think the reason why they disliked me was partially because they saw me as competition. We are of the same gender and my mars makes 6 deg conj to their sun. They were thoroughly envious of me. See below...

*Also* I have pluto in the 6th conj my DC so that would attract people with big egos, power issues. You've just solved a problem that I have been thinking about for years, that is, "why do people get jealous of me?" I've noticed that people get very jealous about who or what I am and I've always found it odd because these people have always got more than what I have. I think this has played in bullying as well. A lot people have bullied me out of jealousy and because I have not given in at times (I have mars trine pluto). Thanks very much for making me think about this, I've never noticed this!!

But anyway, I think we should get back to the topic and not make this a 23-centred thread.

EDIT - PPS something else has just occurred, I have jup conj AC in 1st house. Jup-Pluto opp, jealous of my personal "luck"??

[aquarius7000]

Edit - The t-squ involves a sun-saturn oppostion - low self-esteem, surely bullies would pick up on that.
I agree with that, self-expression + self confidence get restricted with this opposition; both energies are working in opposite directions.

[aquarius7000]

..I have pluto in the 6th conj my DC so that would attract people with big egos, power issues..., "why do people get jealous of me?"
I think you've made a very valid point there 23.
Pluto usually plays a role in some way with both: the one bullying & the one being bullied. I have a powerful, highly-aspected Pluto (in 2, Libra); and I face the same problem as mentioned in your quote. I've also been told that I come across as a powerful personality (and I have problems believing that mself!). I think it's the Pluto that oozes through, and makes others (who seem to sense those Plutonic energies) go on the defensive. As we all know, attack is the best form of defense, so there you have the bullying by such people coming in..
Just the way I clarified this issue to myself

[23]

Thanks for seeing the pluto thing, Aquarius7000.

I'm on a bit of a roll. I was looking at this post:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8481
BML in the chart

....and then I got thinking about what someone said to me many years ago on this website to me (that infuriated me, probably partially my fault in hindsight):

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1313

Specifically refer to CJayne's post of 04-04-2006, 01:01 AM. It talks about BML and its effects. I've been trying to call it up on astro.com and can't seem to locate it (is it h13??) I seem to remember my BML being at 9 deg Aries in the 12th, and this would oppose my pluto. So in a very convoluted way, I can't help that this has something to do with bullying and maybe its a bit parallel to what happened on this post??

Edit - aha, I have located it, yes my BML is 9 deg aries in 12th.

[Jeremy]

I have seen a mars square pluto aspect play out *both ways*.

It looks to me (and appeals logically too) that there is no single aspect that tends to bullying, either giving or receiving of. I can say that I have this aspect, Mars in the 3rd and Pluto just under rising in the 12th and I was bullied quite badly.

I went to a proper English boarding school in the 1970s, the bullying was systematic, institutionalised and perfectly terrifying for an 11 year old after first leaving home. I don't even want to think about it particularly, but I was a mass of cuts and bruises for the first year, then I learned to fight, because that was the only alternative to continual suffering. Very often I found that people who bullied me became firm friends after I fought them; usually I won; having lots of Scorpio planets made me a dangerous opponent I think; I learned to go in very ruthlessly when I was forced into a confrontation, acting quickly and with finality usually stopped the situation.

It all stopped for me when one kid in the year above waloked past me and told me that after he had gone for a drink he was going to come back and beat me up. I followed him to the water fountain and as he was drinking I punched him in the back of the head and he broke his nose of the fountain; after that nobody ever picked on me again. That boy also became a good friend of mine afterwards.

It was cruel and really unpleasant I know but I think it shows how the Pluto Mars square goes both ways.

I want to add that I have not since school been remotely violent to another human being and I only acted that way at school after two years of mental and physical abuse on a scale that would today be considered medieval; I certainly did not behave in that way because I derived the remotest pleasure from it, quite the opposite, I was scared and miserable, but it was the only way I knew to stop being punched and kicked by other children.

Even now I shudder when I think about my school days.

[Jeremy]

I think it explains a lot.
First of all, I should say that in my view, it is not necessary to look at anyone else's chart to understand your situation; everything is included in our own nativity to determine our own destiny, even if you understand what motivates this other person it is irrelevant unless we have understood ourselves first.

Issues of control are entirely Plutonic. My daughter has Pluto in the third; she comes home from school every day telling me of who is plotting her downfall / is destroying her life / has it in for her / is the antichrist, I never say that these people are not doing these things of course, but I also try to tell her - very gently - that she might see darkness without realising that it is only a shadow cast by the Sun, if she changed her view it would not seem so dark.

That is Pluto. For you with Pluto t-squared, you have a lot of issues with seeing darkness, especially with those who you associate with out of a need to earn money. Add into this the fact that you feel a lot of tension when somebody is trying to thwart your dreams of success (Saturn in 11th) and the difficulties you cause for yourself by being very strong-willed and maybe a little abrasive when you are just trying to enjoy yourself then I think you do not need to complicate things much more.

Your Pluto has a double Venus placement as well; anything that upsets your feeling of ease and harmony is going to really upset you and you have a great deal of energy and intensity which other people might find hard to handle. Anyone with Pluto strongly configured is often the focus of irrational hatred from other people: why does it happen? Because you tweak their Plutonic self and a power-struggle - often to the bitter end - is the result. The only antidote to Pluto problems is finding the heart of compassion within yourself. If you can feel sympathy and love for this person, they are obviously very threatened by you and their actions are motivated not by hatred but by fear, self-doubt and insecurity, then you can find Minerva, not Pluto and transform that relationship.

I should also say that you have both Jupiter and Uranus in Peregrine (In Tyl's sense, not Ptolemys) so you probably come across as pushy, over-enthusiastic, loud, bombastic, cranky, odd and abrupt. I am not saying that just to be mean, it is quite clear; it also gives you great power potentially; if you can transform that Plutonic paranoia into Minervan compassion then you have the opportunity to develop into a person that is unique, noble, compassionate and quite possibly brilliant.

Rise above.

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

Do allow me some, well what should I say, feedback or response as below
Feedback is good :)

I think it is out of a need to keep my values intact (sort of keep the faith, also assoiated with house 2- where my Pluto is) more than "out of a need to earn money"
I understand what you are saying and yes, that will be a part of it, but I don't know anybody who lies awake at night worrying about their values: money on the other hand... ;) Okay, I know what you mean by this, but all I was pointing at is that Pluto in the second signifies obsessions relating to money; more specifically with Libra configured it would suggest obsessive financial relationships. I think it is worth thinking about how the 2nd operates in keeping with the 6th and the 10th. The 2nd (actually this is not my idea but Donna Cunningham's, and I think she makes a lot of sense) as the 2nd determines factors of work which we do only for money, as opposed to the 6th which suggests work for its own sake (or the work ethic) and the 10th, which is all about status as you know, but rather the career is simply an expedient means to realising status which is why it has become the house of the "career". I can relate to this as well, because I have several planets in the 2nd. Anything in the second, and the ruler of it, gives an insight into what work we do just for money, rather than because we want to, or are ambitious for fame or whatever. That was my reasoning: since Libra on the second would somewhat suggest relationships that we make just for the purpose of making some money, and let us not forget that Libra, in keeping with its opposite Aries, is extremely competitive; so it is fair I think to consider competitve relationships that we endure because we have to make money.

On a more vaguely philosophical note it is worth remembering that none of us are very good at Pluto. It is after all where we most need to change and are least able to. Why should we have this difficulty? Only because we cannot see that we need to change. If you say that you have a need to keep your values intact rather than a money issue that is fine; I was not saying that you had a problem with money although I know people with Pluto in the 2nd and they really are quite fixated on money. Maybe with Libra you might be drawn to marry someone rich, but whatever the minutiae, I would be surprised if money wasn't a blind spot for you with Pluto placed there, and so tensely configured too.

All of which I say without knowing the first thing about you or your situation of course; I perhaps make a lot of talk here on these boards and I guess I do tend to the didactic, but I put that down to an unaspected Mercury in Scorpio, sharp, perhaps with a reception with Pluto it makes my communications uncomfortable and slightly tactless. I have no idea really, my intention is only to learn and to help where I can.

This bit about the double Venus.. I can't understand, perhaps I missed that, can you explain please?
It is only a reference to having Pluto in Libra in Taurus' house, thus double Venus. That's another way of saying life must be pleasant... or else :)

Actually I sympathise a lot with your situation. My last job I programmed software systems for Nortel, the Canadian Telecomms company and I made plenty of money although my employer - actually a middleman between myself and the actual company itself - stole a quarter of a million dollars from me after which I lost my house and everything of much financial worth in my life. I know what it is to have irrational and difficult experiences connected with your career, maybe it is because I have Ur/Pl rising, so I am sympathetic. I also know that it takes a real power of compassion to forgive someone for destroying everything you have worked for over a decade, but I managed that and in fact I am coming to see that in a very real way, he did me a big favour by ruining me; I would not go back to being the person I was before the swindle, that's for sure.

Whatever happens, I hope you can come out intact. Some people in this life there is no answer for, so perhaps you just have to know where to pick your battles and where to retire. There are always other jobs.

I wish you luck and happiness,
Jeremy

[gaer]

Even now I shudder when I think about my school days.
It's a sad commentary on society that peaceful people are so often forced to fight. To me it means that we are not respected for being peaceful until we prove that being peaceful is a choice, not a weakness. :(

I had a similar experience in school, but nothing anywhere near as drastic as yours.

Gaer

[Rasalhague]

gaer; you are correct. Pluto is in my ninth! I typed it out by memory, which was wrong! I think your comments were very striking. I guess I've been through the same: not noticing you're perceived different in the beginning. I'm unsure whether the bullying truely was provoked out of lack of self-confidence. I felt more like I knew where I was going, but the rest just saw something else. I was oblivious to it for a long time, then I proceeded to think that it's 'not the way it should work'. You know the deal, probably;) As for the disagreeable part; >.> Mars in 7 kind of makes you weary about opening your mouth too much. I've grown accustomed to clearly state my intentions, and I guess that's what the whole bullying thing has taught me in the end. To this day people have trouble assessing me as friend or foe, I get really skittish reactions. So I always feel like I must compensate by explaining everything to not scare anyone off.

lillyjgc; Is that the Neptune/Pluto/Chiron yod? It's a Yod shared by a lot of people, but I guess the house locations are very important. I was teachers pet, unfortunately. lol. I didn't want to be I just ended up liked by the teachers. On the other hand, they didn't think much of me. So the theme returns! I make an entirely different impression than how I feel inside. They thought I was too tender and shy to make something of myself, so they recommended a very low education. I have a bachelors now and if it weren't for the low advice, perhaps I would have had a masters (ran out of funds). I could have done it easily. The "omg, are you attacking me" thing seems to occur to me frequently as well as people completely freezing up. They look rather unsure whether I'm "good" or "bad".

[NeptuneAscendant]

If Pluto (=power, control, manilpulation) is either placed in the outer world houses like 10 or 11 or even 1 (your own house), and negatively aspected (through Mars or Saturn esp), then such tendencies exist

I have Pluto in my tenth house and Saturn is squaring Pluto from the first house. I was bullied horribly throughout school. It never seemed to stop and it only got worse. I didn't have any friends, had low self-esteem, and didn't stick up for myself. My chart details if anyone is curious:

May 8, 1993 at 12:45 AM
New Brunswick, NJ, USA
74w27 40n29
And yes, it was daylight savings time.

[aquarius7000]

I have Pluto in my tenth house and Saturn is squaring Pluto from the first house. I was bullied horribly throughout school. It never seemed to stop and it only got worse. I didn't have any friends, had low self-esteem, and didn't stick up for myself. My chart details if anyone is curious:May 8, 1993 at 12:45 AM; New Brunswick, NJ, USA; 74w27 40n29
Hi and a belated happy birthday to you with lots of good luck for your new solar year ahead.
I will have a look at your birth chart for you (as a birthday present from my side :)).
Btw, I find it amazing that you are into this sphere of life - astrology - at the of 15 itself ;)

[Wilmingtonian]

My daughter's school does monthly anti-bullying programs. All of the teachers in the state go every year now to seminars teaching them how to prevent bullying. I have heard that the problem is rampant.

Is there an astrological reason for the dramatic rise in bullying in the last 10 years?

[aquarius7000]

..Is there an astrological reason for the dramatic rise in bullying..
Check these websites out for possible answers

http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/05/28/defining-the-pluto-in-scorpio-generation/

http://www.astrofuturetrends.com/id29.html

//aquarius7000

[NeptuneAscendant]

Haha, thank you, Aquarius7000. :D

I think the two bullies of the zodiac are Taurus and Aries. Having the Sun, Moon, or Ascendant as Taurus or Aries could indicate bullying tendencies. This is, of course, very general. I have a Taurus sun and it would never cross my mind to bully someone else.

[Wilmingtonian]

Thanks for the articles, Aquarius7000.

I can see how the Pluto in Scorpio generation could be susceptible to bullying. I don't see Scorpios as the primary candidates for bullying, but they're not to be pushed too far, either. An immature Scorpio can be very damaging to those around them--especially if they feel threatened. They can also be calculating, patient in their retribution, and downright cruel at times. The sort of pressuring or manipulating other students into picking on the unfortunate few is a trait I kind of associated with Aries, but I can certainly see how a strong Pluto in Scorpio could fall into that trap as well.

[aquarius7000]

Thanks for the articles, Aquarius7000.
I can see how the Pluto in Scorpio generation could be susceptible to bullying. I don't see Scorpios as the primary candidates for bullying, but they're not to be pushed too far, either. An immature Scorpio can be very damaging to those around them--especially if they feel threatened. They can also be calculating, patient in their retribution, and downright cruel at times. The sort of pressuring or manipulating other students into picking on the unfortunate few is a trait I kind of associated with Aries, but I can certainly see how a strong Pluto in Scorpio could fall into that trap as well.
Bullying comes from a bruised ego, and a big portion of inferiority complex and insecurity within oneself.
The three signs known in astrology to be more predisposed to egoism are Scorpio, Leo and Aries. (The earth signs Taurus and Caps don't lag much far behind when it comes to being eogistical, but it takes a lot to stir these signs up and push them that far. It's more the stubborness and headstrong attitude with both these signs. Taureans, at least, are generally very relaxed and patient)

In my opinion, the difference between Aries and Scorps when it comes to bullying is that

Aries have no qualms about outright openly bullying those, who they feel deserve it, especially if they are coming in their way to climbing that ladder higher and higher. So it's more the 'me first' and 'elbow you others out of the way' kind of thing when an Arien bullies around. Btw, to a large extent the sister fire sign, Leo is also quite like Aries, and can also be quite a loud bullier, esp if they are not getting their due attention. It's more the agression and bossiness when the fire signs bully, you see. But, it usually all happens openly, so you know, most of the times, where you stand with them, which makes things easier to handle. The good thing (if you can call it good) about the bullying fire signs is that when the 'fire' dies out, Leo's and Aries forget and forgive just as easily as they flared up, but with Scorps, there is no forgetting and certainly no forgiving, if Scorps feel they have been wrongly done by :(
Being bullied by Scorps, ouch!!!, that would give me sleepless nights (it actually did) because Scorps don't bully around simply by being loud and agressive, so you at least know what's next that you'll be facing at their hands. It's quite the contrary, it's the Plutonic tactics that apply here: secretiveness and manipulation (Pluto=extremes), depending on how badly you have managed to ruffle a Scorp's feathers. There's nothing light-hearted with a Scorp, it's all very high-voltage stuff giving you the 'shock of your life', in the real sense of the phrase ;) But the other extreme (positive) is also loyalty
Sorry, the above is only my opinion, and there's no malice intended towards any sign, please. :)

Peace to The Magnificent 11
from the 12th one: aquarius7000

[gaer]

Although the certain signs may tend to dominate in the charts of bullies, I think it's more fair and more accurate to simply say that each sign bullies in a different way, when showing its most negative side.

For instance, Pisces (when prominent and showing its worst side) can bully people as much as any other sign, but it tends to do it in a way that appears passive, and it's very hard to pin down where the negative energy is coming from.

Any sign can bully. Libra, my own Sun and Moon and sign, can bully anyone who does not adhere to its own code of fairness and balance.

The problem is that there are countless ways to bully, and all of them hurt if you are the victim.

[Wilmingtonian]

I agree with you, Aquarius7000, about Scorpios. I think of bullies as outright meanies, which is probably why I think of the nastier side of Aries. But the very last person I would want as my enemy is a Scorpio.

If you'll pardon a crude analogy from "The Godfather", Sonny Corleone bullied the way an Aries would. Loud and in your face and with a temper that burned red hot. Michael Corleone was like the Scorpio. He'd let you think he was your friend, he'd take his time, but in the end he'll be twisting the knife in your back while he's smiling at your face. I don't really think of them as bullies, but Scorpios (myself included) can manipulate in an unholy way. (Of course, I try not to.)

And I agree with you, Gaer, that there are different types of "bullying". Pisces can be very, very passive aggressive. I'm thinking of two Pisces that I've know that just love to be victim and always seem to end up in that position (glorying in it, I might add).

And then there are Cancers. I've known a few to weave a wicked web of manipulation to go along with a lot of pouting and woe-is-me-ism.

Every sign has it's weaknesses and when we're immature or insecure, they manifest in horrible ways. There isn't a sign that's immune from it.

Speaking of which, there's a very funny book (entertaining, if not actually helpful) called Nasty Astrology by Richard MacDonald. It's one of my favorites.

[gaer]

And I agree with you, Gaer, that there are different types of "bullying". Pisces can be very, very passive aggressive. I'm thinking of two Pisces that I've know that just love to be victim and always seem to end up in that position (glorying in it, I might add).

Whenever I talk of signs, I'm talking about far more than Sun sign. I assume you are too. :)

It is amazing how people, playing the victim, can take over other people's lives. The thing about passive-aggressive people is that they can flip in a heartbeat too. Victims will suddenly go on the attack, and it can be quite brutal because it is totally unexpected. But I don't want to link this with Pisces, only with Pisces energy misused.

And then there are Cancers. I've known a few to weave a wicked web of manipulation to go along with a lot of pouting and woe-is-me-ism.

Every sign has it's weaknesses and when we're immature or insecure, they manifest in horrible ways. There isn't a sign that's immune from it.

That was my point. :)

Speaking of which, there's a very funny book (entertaining, if not actually helpful) called Nasty Astrology by Richard MacDonald. It's one of my favorites.
That reminds me of "You Were Born on a Rotten Day" by Jim and Jerry Hopkins Critchfield. I read it years ago and thought it was very funny. :)

Gaer

[Miss Saturn]

I would disagree in saying Libra bullies because others are not adhering to it's own codes/fairness and balance, suggesting that Libra is always fair in it's reasons for bullying. Is there a "right " reason for bullying :rolleyes: . whereas Pisces is just "negative", and will bully passively. I think if both signs are bullies it is coming from a negative place not just for Pisces but from Libra as well. No matter how it is justified.

[gaer]

I would disagree in saying Libra bullies because others are not adhering to it's own codes/fairness and balance, suggesting that Libra is always fair in it's reasons for bullying.

You misunderstood my point. Libra is not always fair. It just thinks it is when it is arrogant, insensitive and—well, other things that are very negative. I tried to express that it can be as negative and cruel as any other sign, regardless of what the reasons are.

Is there a "right " reason for bullying :rolleyes: .

No. Not in my opinion.

whereas Pisces is just "negative", and will bully passively. I think if both signs are bullies it is coming from a negative place not just for Pisces but from Libra as well. No matter how it is justified.
I agree completely, and I don't know why anyone would disagree. :)

Gaer

[Miss Saturn]

The more I have thought on it your right :) . I was thinking if a Libra feels anger what it is angry about, usually seeing the situation as being unfair, or people not treating them equally perhaps. A Pisces angry is when they feel they have sacrificed for everybody, and then the Martyr comes out. They can bully through guilt perhaps. Although I would have to think on this more. :)

[gaer]

The more I have thought on it your right :) . I was thinking if a Libra feels anger what it is angry about, usually seeing the situation as being unfair, or people not treating them equally perhaps. A Pisces angry is when they feel they have sacrificed for everybody, and then the Martyr comes out. They can bully through guilt perhaps. Although I would have to think on this more. :)
About four decades ago, a much older man told me that I was not a kind person. He was someone I admired, and because of that, the comment hurt. It hurt because it was half-true. I was young, very proud of my mind, and I was arrogant.

It's not true that I was a totally unkind person, but I was far to rough on people, often with little or no reason. Usually that will not happen today unless I'm angry, which is still not an excuse, but I don't think any of us are at our best when angry.

That's why I think there are an infinite number of ways to bully people. It's really about misuse of power, and I think when we are young we don't always realize it when we intimidate people, make them feel inferior, make them feel little.

So the in the end, the exact reasons why we are cruel, for any reason, in any situation, are not important except for understanding how to stop being that way.

Signs, aspects, houses, transits—they should never be used as excuses for how we are, just as tools to understand why we are as we are and how we need to change. At least that's my point of view.

Gaer

[aquarius7000]

..That's why I think there are an infinite number of ways to bully people. It's really about misuse of power..

I guess, all we've been trying to say is that all signs bully and misuse power, but this comes from a different motivation each time.

So Aries bullies if you are coming in their way to achieving their goal

Aquarius would do so, if their independence/freedom is being threatened

Taurus when in fear of losing their prized 'possessions'

Pisces out of martyrdom

Scorpio more out of jealousy, or is their another reason !?!

However, due to planetary rulers (and you have to agree that Pluto and Mars are more powerful than the Moon) some signs might bully more outright and actively than other signs, I have to say.

Peace :)
aquarius 7000

[Miss Saturn]

Hi Gaer,

Maybe you were not aware of your more angry side because your Mars/Pluto is in the 12th (I think that's where your placement was). I was always told growing up I was too nice, always compromising all the time, I was always sensitive to what people said. I was this way for a very long time. Too long. Because I also had Mars in Aquarius square Uranus in Scorpio in my chart with my 7th house Pisces planets, this side of myself was left unintegrated completely into my personality. I would read the descriptions of it, and reject it as at that time it was not me, or who I thought I was. Psychologically for years it was unconscious, only in the last couple of years have I really recognised this self willed character underneath, who gets opinionated, and it's cage gets rattled very easily now. All the years of compromising especially to my mother and then bullying partner has left this aspect fuming, underneath. This is why now the slightest comment directed my way and if I see someone offending me I react way overboard to it. I do believe the aspect can counterbalance my more giving in qualities and over agreeable side. But because I am still finding it hard to give constructive expression to the aspect it comes out self righteous, arrogant, self willed etc.

[Venusian Grin]

At any rate my daughter is behind socially and has regressed mentally..The courts will not take away visitations to the grandmother,but..it seems i may be in for some luck soon after 11 years of battle...Ms grandma may finnaly be stopped..

Is this grandma your mum or your daughters fathers mum? I hope you get her away from this evil grandmother of hers, shes a bad influence on your daughter. I'm guessing you mentioned this in the courtroom, how her grandma influences her in a bad way?

[MantisReligiosa]

I think it can be a combination of things, but I say it always has to do with transits.

I was bullied all throughout high school, which coincided with transitting Pluto first squaring my Venus, then my Sun(in my natal chart, I have Sun conjunct Venus, on the DC). So Pluto was transitting my 4th house, squaring my Asc-Dc(with my Sun and Venus on it) axis.
This is a T-square formation, and as we know, T-squares backfire in the opposite point of the squaring planet, which, in my case, was the 10th house..so, yeah.
No regrets, though. what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, as they say..that's especially true for Pluto transits.

[Venusian Grin]

I've been bullied throughout school, now I don't get bullied anymore. Somehow, I do have difficulty trying to be friends with people the same gender. I have the grand cross in my birth chart. The planets that are mostly involved in the oppositions/squares are sun (taurus), moon (leo), saturn (aquarius) and pluto (scorpio).

When I look back now, I just wonder what I did wrong. Somehow, my mind is always telling me it wasn't my fault. I just didn't have the strength to stand up for myself. It didn't help, the way my parents were tough on me, when I got bullied. I never got much support, my dad wouldn't do anything about it, he would tell me to go tell mum or he would tell mum himself, then my mum would get all angry that I've been bullied. I would get a yelling at or beating.

This has ruined me badly. Most of the time I tell people to "GO away and leave me alone" or I just ignore people. I can be a really happy or really down person. This had a big effect on my mood swing.

Is there anyone out there who has the same experience? :happy:

[JayM]

Happened to me before highschool in grade 7 and 8 because I was in a bad school (so I was told later), if it was transits I think transiting pluto was going over my uranus and my merc which are in my 10th (im 26 now and my natal pluto is 4 degrees scorpio in the 8th).

I was very shy at the time, and I have mars is in pisces, 1st in a trine less then 2 degrees with my pluto in scorp in the 8th (mars is intercepted because pisces is squished in the first, as my AC is aquarius), also saturn in scorp is square my venus, AC and opp my moon, so shy and mars wasn't helping back then although Im not sure if being intercepted has anything to do with it.

Power games have to do with something that you can hold over someone (or something you have that others dont), in the case of school social skills can be it but its not the only thing, bullying is also about powerlessness in the bully because they try to get a rise out of you.

I dont know if it is saturn or pluto but they both might have something to do with it, I have been bullied and I have hard saturn aspects and easy pluto aspects but my pluto is very dignified.

[bigblack]

I thought I would pitch in my two pennies worth.

But first I have only skimmed this thread. So those accuracy fascists and off subject fascists you are warned.

I think that there is another element here that has not been mentioned. This is being born different. Most interpretations are from the point of view of normality ie a normal person commenting on what its like for a normal person to be bullied. But what as I have mentioned if the person is just different. In this case according to the social rules and as bart simpson once put "always pick on the one who is different". Of course this is not about astrology - although it may be explained by the chart. Deformity can do it quite nicely. But would uranus and neptune be involved in some way. I have netune conj the asc(appearence) in the twelve and uranus in virgo in the tenth(reputation).

[Ruka_5]

What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.


I think it's Pluto, too.

I have Mars-Pluto, Moon-Pluto, I've always attracted bullies and still do.

[danashock]

I will definitely have to say scorpio rising and/or pluto aspecting the ascendant. This makes people project their dirt on the person with these placements. and yes i think you are right,mars/pluto can is directly related to the issue but i feel that mars/pluto is bullying on steroids usually,as it is very often found in the charts of both criminals and victims!

[virgo18]

It is tricky to spot astrologically who is prone to be a bully or a bullied.

People might say generally, is an issue about Mars, Pluto, Aries, and Scorpio.
And the ones who suffer it will have a strong Moon, Neptune, and could be also Pluto that will play like a double edged sword... because pluto can be extremely sensitive or insensitive depending on the planets is aspecting.

Other People say that Mars in Libra or Cancer will be prone to be bullied... but I really don't think that a weak Mars is the fault of it. You have to check all the chart.

This issue is about psychology and family environment of either (bully and bullied)... And I will related to the 3rd, 1st, 4th, 5th, and could be 2nd. The planets which are there and the rulers. As well as Mercury, Mars, Moon, Sun, and Venus. (Also how the outer planets are affecting them)

Why the bullies bully? Because much of them have an Ill family environment (check 4th and Moon), there can be violence(Mars), their parents may regard them with material stuff to compensate their absence (2nd Venus), parents are very busy (Saturn), parents may give them incorrect advices (Mercury), father hits mother, superficial spiritual education (Jupiter). Also parents may feed their ego (5th and Sun) incorrectly (1st or 8th, Mars or Pluto). THEY GROW WHITH MUCH ANGER (MARS PLUTO), OR INCORRECT OFF THE CHARTS SELF WORTH (MARS) AND STEEM (SUN)
Also they are always insecure about their own attributes that's why they are always proving their own selves molesting people who appear weaker than them. They will NEVER bother people who appear stronger, because of their own fear to bring down all the self esteem. Instead they will have the need to develop a superficial friendship relationship with such people to feel more powerful. Also this guy may not treat good animals, plants, subordinates, and their own stuff. The things is that sooner or later in adult life, working environment, or romantic relationships someone will "BRING DOWN THEIR EGGS" (Spanish quote when someone breaks your superficial self esteem, or arrogance)


Why the bullied are bullied? Because of an obsessive overprotective mother (Moon-Pluto) that do everything for her child not letting it to develop self-sufficiency. The child will not develop social skills and will appear over emotional and insecure when its away from the mother... The perfect spot for a bully. They will also have an affected 2nd and 5th house by outer planets which block self worth and self-esteem. They mother wont let them feel emotional pain, or she will tell them everyone is a good person. So the child will not develop emotional strength, or cleverness to deal with difficult people and situations.
Maybe the family will cause some blockages in them telling things like: "You can't do this, you can't do that... you will never achieve this and that"
This kids will meet their first painful experiences in school, and they grow up fearing large groups of people and also school, as they experiment their first wounds in it. THis child can also turn into a bully when it grows up, and cause damage to other people.


The child will need balance.

So if you don't want your kid to be a bully or a bullied. Check your own natal chart and Learn to give them "balance". Half of independence, half of affection. And be aware how you ARGUE with them. Try to be not very rude, and not very soft. Just squared.
The character and either strength/sensibility of the child need to be developed since it is a baby and they have to go hand to hand.

Check which are your weak points in your natal chart and try not to discharge them with your future kid.

[Ruka_5]

I will definitely have to say scorpio rising and/or pluto aspecting the ascendant. This makes people project their dirt on the person with these placements.and yes i think you are right,mars/pluto can is directly related to the issue but i feel that mars/pluto is bullying on steroids usually,as it is very often found in the charts of both criminals and victims!


...I actually think that extends to anyone who has Pluto prominent or highly active in their chart in some way, whether it's aspecting angles, luminaries, or inner planets as well.

Pretty much all my life at various points I've been singled out, demonized and targeted by people. As a kid and even up until the last few years of my life, I largely blamed myself for it because I didn't know any better, I didn't know anything about projection so I went based on the external feedback I was getting and figured that since I keep having such negative experiences with people, I must be the bad one and the problem. I spent a lot of time beating myself up mentally and jumping hoops trying to please people and change myself because of it.

Once I learned a bit about human nature and the human psyche and my astrological knowledge grew, then I sat down and did the math about my own behavior. I realized there was nothing I was doing to justify any of the hostile and/or predatory behavior I'd been on the receiving end of, and that it had to be something else going on, something that had nothing to do with me.

I think Plutonian people end up being lightning rods unfortunately. A lot of people have unresolved Plutonian issues, some that aren't even aware they have those issues in the first place, or they've deeply repressed them. So then a Plutonian person walks past them and they immediately project all that energy onto them and in their mind, it suddenly becomes that other person that is the problem. At which point they prey on and terrorize the Plutonian person, in an subconscious attempt to fix themselves.

If they manage to successfully beat the Plutonian person into submission, (whether through words, fists or some other means), they go into a state of peace and contentment, which doesn't last long because, unbeknownst to them, that other person wasn't the problem in the first place, the problem is what's going on inside them, which still isn't resolved or healed. Those issues then eventually become a primary problem again and usually get vomited out onto the next Plutonian person that comes along and they then continue the cycle.

Once I really understood this, my whole approach to these situations, changed. Rather than try to defend myself, thinking that would make them back off (it doesn't; if anything, they use it as confirming 'evidence' in their own head that you are the problem and continue or even escalate their abuse) I know now to just completely ignore it and outright refuse to respond or engage them in any way. When you just don't acknowledge them at all they eventually move on and, unfortunately, target someone else.

[bigblack]

Generally speaking those who are picked on are different. Whether anyone here cares to admit it or not. Those who are picked on still want to be part of the pack/majority so even those who are different will readily use the points that those who are not different will use to describe the situation. I also feel that those who are different are usually completely surrounded by the majority, so thay are unable to form independent thought and/or theories as to why it is happening.

I will not do this. I know I am not usual and am not in denial or use the terms that the majority uses.

Its all uranus/neptune not pluto/neptune/moon.

[Still thinking]

This is just very simple.

Criticizing somebody is a nature of Saturn.

i see enemies,strangers and outsiders from 6th house. If 6th house is somehow connected with Saturn then you may be bullied by someone.

so many have not mentioned their birth details so i can't see by INDIAN METHOD.

Two horoscopes i saw just now was of Leo rising and Virgo rising who were once bullied. Reason is lord of their 6th house is Saturn.

One was Scorpio rising. This person was bullied at home not outside because for Scorpio rising Saturn is lord of 4th house.4th house stands for family and home environment.

[Venusian Grin]

This is just very simple.

Criticizing somebody is a nature of Saturn.

i see enemies,strangers and outsiders from 6th house. If 6th house is somehow connected with Saturn then you may be bullied by someone.

so many have not mentioned their birth details so i can't see by INDIAN METHOD.

Two horoscopes i saw just now was of Leo rising and Virgo rising who were once bullied. Reason is lord of their 6th house is Saturn.

One was Scorpio rising. This person was bullied at home not outside because for Scorpio rising Saturn is lord of 4th house.4th house stands for family and home environment.

I have saturn in 10th house. My ascendant is Aries. Both my saturn and 10th house are in Aquarius.

[Still thinking]

Reply to Venusian Grin

I follow Indian Astrology.i may need your complete birth details.

Saturn in 10th or 1st house give people suspicious nature.

saturn in 10th its own sign make people Hard worker.They do their task in a very systamatic manner.

This suspicious nature don't give them strightforward behaviour.they play good trick to know hidden truth.

Saturn in 10th may give you critizing nature.

i follow sign-house system.As per that your Saturn is in 11th house and aspectes your Aries rising.this increses your agressive thouths and make you highly rebelion.

[Cold Fusion]

I think capricorn is the most domineering and heartless sign of the zodiac (the bully), if there was a sign you can attribute fascism and nihilism to, capricorn would be the sign.

[Venusian Grin]

I think you described my suspicious side really well!


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab173/psychedelic111/AstroNatalChart-1.gif


I follow Indian Astrology.i may need your complete birth details.

Saturn in 10th or 1st house give people suspicious nature.

saturn in 10th its own sign make people Hard worker.They do their task in a very systamatic manner.

This suspicious nature don't give them strightforward behaviour.they play good trick to know hidden truth.

Saturn in 10th may give you critizing nature.

i follow sign-house system.As per that your Saturn is in 11th house and aspectes your Aries rising.this increses your agressive thouths and make you highly rebelion.

[Venusian Grin]

I 100% agree by far! I find Capricorns and Saturn the biggest bullies ever in the zodiac! A lot of those politicians suck and they're big bullies, because they want domination and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! These politicians have Capricorn traits from what I read.

I think capricorn is the most domineering and heartless sign of the zodiac (the bully), if there was a sign you can attribute fascism and nihilism to, capricorn would be the sign.

[Still thinking]

I may not be fully correct about Aquarians but i think they are nice people but not open minded.

Aquariuans and capricorn both are ruled by saturn so it's natural both wil have traits of Saturn.but after all they both are two different sign so there must be difference between them.

symbol of capricorn is half crocodile and half deer.Exactly i don't know.

We have observed crocodiles. How they pretend to be calm but inside they are waiting to attack.Due to this capricorns understand the TRAP system very well.

And if we we find moon and saturn in capricorn then that person may be highly suspicious and will always be in a fear that people are trying to Trap him.

As per my knowledge capricorns are mean.

[Still thinking]

As per Indian/vedic Astrology

http://leogold.com/OnlineHoroscope/Result.aspx?BirthDetails=;Male;10/05/1992;06:00:00;New%20Zealand;Dunedin;;;45:50S;170:3 3E;180E;Standard%20Time

As per this Horoscope you have saturn in Capricorn in 10th house and aspected by moon from 4th house.

[Still thinking]

i must thank you for starting this subject of bully.Because when you asked then only i started thinking.

I visited my friends's house.i felt she was not treated well.But now i realize that she was Libra Rising which means lord of 4th house was saturn.

[Cold Fusion]

I 100% agree by far! I find Capricorns and Saturn the biggest bullies ever in the zodiac! A lot of those politicians suck and they're big bullies, because they want domination and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! These politicians have Capricorn traits from what I read.

I attribute Pluto more to domineering then saturn, saturn people are generally shy, I have Sun conjunct Saturn, I could care less about domination, nor do I want to be dominated, but if you attack me I will attack back, I don't turn the other cheek.

[Cold Fusion]

If you go by fixed stars, then this can answer alot, I don't think polis is truthful.

Spiculum
The Lagoon Nebula Eye trouble, blindness, depression, hopelessly doomed, morbid religious outlook, no concern for human life; a nebula in the upper part of the Bow of the Archer. 1° Cap 04 1° Cap 12 Unfortunate Mars/ Moon M8 Sagittarius
N (red) Mg.6.0

Alnasl Eye trouble, blindness (or bad eyesight). A double star, with other weaker companions, in the middle of the Bow of the Archer. 1° Cap 16 1° Cap 24 Unfortunate Mars/ Moonγ (Gamma) Sagittarii
K0 (orange) Mg.3.1

Polis
A Foal Martial desires, high ambitions, domination, keen perception, success; horsemanship, truthfulness; spiritual power. A double star at the top of the Bow of the Archer 3° Cap 13 3° Cap 21 Very Fortunate Jupiter/ Marsμ (Mu) Sagittarii
B8 (blue) Mg.3.0 var.

[Flowergirl]

Two people I know who love to bully, criticise and disempower have Pluto in the first house and personal planets in Cap. It always amazes me how these people tend to get away with the bullying and how the bullying is often so low key and at such a psychological level and so damaging to other's self esteem. :andy: It is like this, they have been criticised so much about their bullying, that they revert to other under-cover, decoy-types-of-ways to bully.

Often when you are at the receiving end of bullying, it is hard to understand how people can do these things. It baffles the brains really.

[JayM]

I was also thinking and I have libra on the cusp of my 8th house and my 1st house venus in aqua is square saturn in the 9th in scorp, some of the bullying I have seen has been where people will pretend to be your firend but they will spread rumors about you or try to show you up or humiliate you in front of others. I also have cancer on the cusp of my 5th and 6th house and my taurus moon in the third opposes saturn, which is my cap suns ruler and my aqua AC's ruler.

The cusp of the 8th house colors the 8th house influences so an afflicted 8th house ruler might show bullying in whatever form it might take.

[Caro]

it will be the aspects between the two charts ie the victim and the bully.

I have experienced bullying behaviour from gemini's in the past at work.(sun sign gemini) Im an aqua sun. Thinking back I pushed his buttons. however this particular person was like this with others too - used to build people up then try and destroy them.


I have pisces planets. so this would have sq his gemini sun.

have seen a gemini sun married to a pisces sun - the gemini was the bully and the pisces sun walked out and left!(this is a reality tv star)

for hidden controlling behaviour I would look to pluto too not saturn.

[m0ney*p0wer*re$pect]

Two people I know who love to bully, criticise and disempower have Pluto in the first house and personal planets in Cap. It always amazes me how these people tend to get away with the bullying and how the bullying is often so low key and at such a psychological level and so damaging to other's self esteem. :andy: It is like this, they have been criticised so much about their bullying, that they revert to other under-cover, decoy-types-of-ways to bully.

Often when you are at the receiving end of bullying, it is hard to understand how people can do these things. It baffles the brains really.

I have a first house pluto in Scorpio and my classmates always tell me in my younger days I was a bully. And I was I always picked fights it was a poor way of dealing with my anger because I brooded alot. In 4th grade I got my *** handed to me tho lol but I stop bullying when I found football. It was a way to unleash the energy and anger inside. I have a 12th house libra mars too but I think my first house Pluto contributed to wanting to be strong over others in my early years

[Flowergirl]

Thanks for sharing MPR. Yes, it is true that bullying can be as a result of being bullied and sometimes it is the only reason why people bully: to release the anger of being disempowered and dishonoured by another. Thankfully we mature and see the error of our ways and change. The two people that I mention have thankfully moved out of the situations where they were being challenged and low and behold, their bullying behaviour and anger gradually left them. I guess it is part of life and part of our learning to become human as spiritual beings.

[Still thinking]

There may be variations.

some people bully simply to have fun but some people seriously mean what they say(while bullying).

If Saturn is connected to 6th house then people are likely to get bullied but if saturn and mars togerther influence 6th house then that situation may turn violent.

[bubuza_dulce]

I think capricorn is the most domineering and heartless sign of the zodiac (the bully), if there was a sign you can attribute fascism and nihilism to, capricorn would be the sign.
I was bullied by this person! (Here is the chart). We were friends at first but she changed through the years and became obsessed with money. I still find it so hard to believe that Caps are mean since I've been helped by so many!
When we first met (we went to the same college) she seemed the nicest person around! Even now I remember how she used to be and I can't believe she's "gone"!
So she has Mars in the first house, her interest is in her career (Moon in tenth) and lately she "walked on corpses" to put her career in order, the Sun in Cap.What else? And me,Mars, Pluto and Lilith in seventh, opposing the Ascendant. In Libra. So it was a problem! But still, I have the Asc in Aries and Sun in Leo and I've never bullied anyone. On the other hand, she challenged me until the point I couldn't bear it and I stood up for myself. Speaking about Cap, she respects nothing but the brute force. It doesn't matter if you're right or if she wants something unlawful. She will leave you alone only if you stand up for yourself and you prove that you are stronger. BTW, could you tell me if I'll ever have problems with this person? I haven't had in years, but I still remember! In the present I practise kickboxing so as to never have this kind of problems again, but imagine the effect she's had on me since she made me transform like this! (because the only way to determin her to stop bugging me was to beat her up, and before that I wouldn't have touched a fly!)

[Sweet Pea]

I see bullies as indicated by Nessus (the centaur). Nessus placements can show where we will not take "no" for an answer, where we are pushy, stubborn and insistant, and where we force things to turn out our way. As it is slow-moving, lots of us will have it in Taurus which rather compounds its effect.

[astrologer50]

I see bullies as indicated by Nessus (the centaur). Nessus placements can show where we will not take "no" for an answer, where we are pushy, stubborn and insistant, and where we force things to turn out our way. As it is slow-moving, lots of us will have it in Taurus which rather compounds its effect. I couldn't find it in taurus anywhere :unsure: plus it is mentioned in *sidereal* rather than Tropical (the majority on AW)

http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Nessus

this is still very much mythology with very little writtent about it.

http://www.astrologycom.com/fixedstars.html#Taurus

http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/fixedstars.html (http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/fixedstars.html)

[Mark]

I see bullies as indicated by Nessus (the centaur). Nessus placements can show where we will not take "no" for an answer, where we are pushy, stubborn and insistant, and where we force things to turn out our way. As it is slow-moving, lots of us will have it in Taurus which rather compounds its effect.
I know nothing about Nessus, but the description you've provided is the same I would have provided for the lunar apogee. I refer to the lunar apogee (the furthest point of the Moon's orbit) as the "real" Lilith. Asteroids are generally named by astronomers, not astrologers, so I usually avoid trying to read meaning into asteroid names. The "invisible Moon" idea is another matter entirely. I believe the lunar apogee meets the criteria for the abuse and neglect of the Universal order (which is Peace and Harmony) and therefore describes (by position) the manner in which we are most likely to be selfish. It was named "Lilith" by astrologers. The story of Lilith is the embodiment of the description above.

[soratothamax]

i am mars in pisces, and though I would rather appear strong (Venus in Aries), i am often a victim of being bullied or pushed around, and instead of standing up for myself I passively withdraw. I don't have much social skills. I have tons of friends, but I'm not a person who likes to hang out all the time. I like time to myself, and i sometimes don't even want to hang out with the friends I have. I just never "feel" like it. but i was always quiet and a bit shy in school, so people always thought I was an easy target...until they get hold of some of my other qualities which are much more aggressive. ;)

[Sweet Pea]

You know, I don't mention asteroids unless I have looked at them in charts and found a correlation between the myth, and the reality of a person and what they are like, and what they happened to do when their Nessus (for example) was activated.

Is it not possible that the astronomer who named the asteroid was 'impressed' by an intuitive knowing of the quality of energy that the asteroid was giving out?

People who work with asteroids have found the most uncanny correspondences between their mythical meanings, and the myths that people are playing out in their real lives.

You can find Nessus by using the box under Extended Chart Selection on the astro.com site.

[theV]

I remembered coupled time when I was younger my class made a petition and groups and announce that they hate me most of boys mocked of me I was physically abused and bullied by my teacher who used to hit me with Plastic rod cause i was stammer and till today I am being bullied

[crazedrat]

Any planet placed in purvabhavapada (final 13.2 degrees of aquarius for sidereal, ~middle / late pisces for tropical) will show a person who's been victimized by society. It relates to both the victim and the persecutor, often people who've been victims will transform into the persecutor.

[Abby83]

What in a chart do you think indicates someone who has a tendency to be bullied?

Bullying is about abuse of power so I suspect a negative Pluto and Mars influence. People who are bullied often, but not always, have poorer social skills than the norm (making them "outsiders" and hence more likely to be victimised) so I expect to see this in the chart as well.

That's true but unfortunate. My communication is poor verbally and as a result I am a definite target for those who are beautifully skilled in the area. My north node is in Gemini, poorly aspected - go figure. Mars is poorly aspected. And pluto and Saturn are in the 12th house. You are definitely right. I don't originally see myself as a victim, but ppl do target me out of the blue and i've always wondered why. I am different, and like being different, but this irritates others and is a prime situation for a bully.

[Abby83]

i am mars in pisces, and though I would rather appear strong (Venus in Aries), i am often a victim of being bullied or pushed around, and instead of standing up for myself I passively withdraw. I don't have much social skills. I have tons of friends, but I'm not a person who likes to hang out all the time. I like time to myself, and i sometimes don't even want to hang out with the friends I have. I just never "feel" like it. but i was always quiet and a bit shy in school, so people always thought I was an easy target...until they get hold of some of my other qualities which are much more aggressive. ;)

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. We all seem to have the same things in common. So y does this attract bullies. Do they see our need for space as a weakness or something. I personally feel im too far evolved and mature for these bullies to even bother, but unfortunately they interfere too much and persist.