Dumb question...What does the Sun mean in a Natal??

[Junke]

ok, the question might seem kind of...simple...but the more that I think on it, the more I realize that I don't understand it.. I understand the Moon so much better than the Sun, which seems odd because the Sun is so much more commonly written about...

Anyway, I know it means something about the "Ego", but what does that mean? The ego as opposed to what??

What does it mean to have the Sun placed in a certain sign? A certain house?

What does it mean for a planet to aspect the Sun? Some people try to write it off as saying it just gives the qualities if the sing ruled by the planet aspecting it, but that seems...odd..

[lillyjgc]

Junke,
To me the sun represents *how we shine* in our life, and the house it's in shows me *where we shine*.Aspects to the sun are, in my humble opinion,very important.Negative aspects to the sun may impede our ability to *shine* and the houses related to the aspects give insight as to how those obstacles may present.For example, I have my natal sun square my ascendant....and I have not enjoyed robust health, but as my ascendant is capricorn, I have a lot of physical stamina/endurance/capacity to withstand, such that that square is less damaging than it otherwise might be.And as Saturn is involved,as I have aged my health has improved.This is just an example.

The sign one's sun is in greatly influences the sun's ability to act (shine)...again referring to my own chart as an example, my sun in Libra is weakened, but its in my tenth, so strengthened by being high in the chart and angular.
As to the sun representing *ego*,well that's one facet of the sun.As *shining* may be regarded as an ego based activity I guess the ego comes into it but the sun is our essence, our vitality, our potential.
To me, and others may disagree, the sun represents our enjoyment of life, our happiness quotient, if you like.A twelfth house sun placement for example, may in itself reveal someone who *hides their light under a bushell*,so to speak, but if say that sun was in a comfortable sextile with say, the moon,the native might be quite comfortable to be a *behind the scenes* type of person-like a writer or someone who needs seclusion to fulfil their potential.However, if that same H12 sun was opposed by say, Saturn, we might find a person who suffers from sadness and loneliness.(These are just examples to illustrate the importance of house placements and aspects.)
feel free to post your chart or natal data if you would like me to relate what I have said above to your own sun.
Hope you found that, shall I say, *illuminating*? (!)
Cheers, Lillyjgc

[wilsontc]

Junke,

You asked:
What does the Sun mean...What does it mean to have the Sun placed in a certain sign? A certain house?

Self-expression. The Sun is about how we express ourself to those around us. It is about our "Identity Security", how we become secure with who we are by "showing off" ourselves to others.

SIGN modifies PLANET focused on HOUSE. So in the case of the Sun (self-expression):

SIGN modifies Sun (self-expression) focused on HOUSE. The sign indicates HOW the person's self-expression (Sun) "behaves" and the house indicates where the person's self-expression (Sun) is focused.

For a review of the astro-basics, see Step 5 in the link below.

Sunnily,

Tim

[Junke]

Thanks Y'all, it really has helped me understand a little better.

It's cool that you'll look at my chart, examples always help me..


(should be below)

[starlink]

Hi Junke, I must say, Lilly gave a very good explanation there.

Looking at your chart you see that your Sun "shines" in the 9th house. This house is related to long distance travel, philosophy of life, publishing, university education, journalism in combination with traveling, foreign cultures, religion and such and with both rulers of your 10th house there AND your Sun and Mercury, ruler of your 5th house of selfexpression (so actually 2 things pointing towards selfexpression in this house!!) this becomes a house of high focus and importance to you.
It could well be that you have great literally interest, maybe even like to write, because Mars is also ruler of your 3rd house.

With the traditional ruler of your Ascendant, Saturn, in your 12th, trine your Moon in the 4th, you need to be alone at times and you are a very private person, so writing in solitude, at home (ruler 6 in the 4th) would fit the bill.
I wonder if this is true, but it certainly is a posibility.
You have a mutual reception between Uranus and Saturn, also showing your need for independence and solitude and I think that you are a person who likes to help the underdog with that Uranus in the 11th trine Neptune in the 7th.
Starlink

[VENUS]

hello
i have my sun/aqua. and venus/aqu. in my 4th house natally, and my joy is to be at home and have my company and friends over every single day, and we always do creative/artistic things to decorate the house. so i guess it is where your sun is want shine with what house its in. ;)

[Jeremy]

This is an interesting and useful discussion; quite often it's all too easy to get bogged down in detail and we forget often to fully consider the basics. My own tuppence-worth on this subject then; after these excellent thoughts and suggestions is this: The Sun acts very much as an executive, kind of an organisational head or leader. Imagine that your entire being is a company, then the Sun would be the CEO, very much the public figurehead, the one who approves all the press releases, determines the overall strategy of the company, how the capital is invested, the branding and so forth. This describes to me the very subtle distinction between the Sun and Mercury. In this sense your Mercury might be the marketing team, or the sales team even, and while they might have their own priorities and personality, they are still constrained by having to act in a manner that is broadly in keeping with the CEOs vision of how business is done. If your sun sign is Libra then, it doesn't matter that your Mercury is in a hard-sell sign like Aries, you still have to adopt a diplomatic approach, because that's company policy.

This way, the Sun acts like the CEO and defines the company policy of your being, it therefore filters everything you express about yourself and everything is therefore coloured by it, which is exactly why all Sun signs are broadly similar in a very non-specific but fundamental way, they may all be trying to express radically different personalities, but they all have a broadly similar policy as to how they should be expressed.

People with weak or afflicted Suns are like companies with weak or afflicted CEOs. Imagine a company whose CEO is afflicted by a Saturn square. He might take business very seriously but his slow deliberating approach and expectation that everyone take him seriously might make his employees and clients alike find him difficult to work with, thus he might not get the respect he craves. This is why afflicted Sun placements often experience difficulty with respect. Similarly, with an affliction to Mars, our CEO might be a mad risk taker, incurring the enmity of others through his aggressive manner, his blunt speaking and the fact that he doesn't take other people's feelings into account, many clients faced with such a CEO might decide to take their business elsewhere!

I find this way of visualising the Sun is very helpful - for me at least - although I very much agree with many of the previous viewpoints especially that last one about the heroes journey, it seems very relevant too.

Peace,
Jeremy

[blennus]

Not that this is important, but Merury can never stray more than a sign away from the Sun, so Sun in Libra, mercury in aries isn't really a possibility. Again not important, everything else was spot on.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I've been wondering about this too and was searching for thread on this topic. If the sun is the CEO or the method of self expression, what does that make the Ascendant? Does the Ascendant rule the physical body only?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I find the concept of personality rather difficult to pin down. I find it hard to see how a personality can be greater than the sum of its parts. In this case the parts are the other planets, especially the moon and Venus which rule habits and tastes, which as far as I can see, are the constituents of personality.

The only thing I can think of is that the sun rules the manner of expression of personality, and not the personality itself. If this is the case I get Jeremy's thing and that's a useful explanation. But if Jeremy's thing is true then what role does the Ascendant have, as I've always read it revolves around the mask or manner of expression people use to convey their sun, which shows their personality...

[R4VEN]

I've been wondering about this too and was searching for thread on this topic. If the sun is the CEO or the method of self expression, what does that make the Ascendant? Does the Ascendant rule the physical body only?
My reading, and my observation of many people and their charts leads me to believe that the ascendant describes several things:* it's the `filter' which the newborn is born into as it leaves the mother's body to enter the world as an independent being
* thus, whenever a person begins again in any way - eg. new job, new relationship, different project - then the energy of their ascendant - the original new beginning in this lifetime - is reactivated.
* it frequently describes a person physically - eg. a man with Taurus rising generally has a thick (`bullish') upper body, whilst a woman with Taurus rising tends to look `Venusian', or very feminine, and often quite delicate in appearance. Another example being the late Princess Diana, who along with her son, Prince William, had/have Sag rising, and both have that colt-like grace, long legs, and a long nose like a horse.

For many reasons - one being that the sun is the private and `real' part of us - it's generally easier to identify a person's ascendant, since that's the public and open face of a person.

[starlink]

Hi Raven, well, another interesting thing I have seen is that in life, we start out by showing our Ascendant and Moon qualities and much lateron in life, when we have (hopefully) acquired more selfconfidence where needed, that we then much better come to express our Sunsign qualities.
Only when Sunsign and Asc. are the same, you dont really get this.

[astrologer50]

I've been wondering about this too and was searching for thread on this topic. If the sun is the CEO or the method of self expression, what does that make the Ascendant? Does the Ascendant rule the physical body only?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I find the concept of personality rather difficult to pin down. I find it hard to see how a personality can be greater than the sum of its parts. In this case the parts are the other planets, especially the moon and Venus which rule habits and tastes, which as far as I can see, are the constituents of personality.

The only thing I can think of is that the sun rules the manner of expression of personality, and not the personality itself. If this is the case I get Jeremy's thing and that's a useful explanation. But if Jeremy's thing is true then what role does the Ascendant have, as I've always read it revolves around the mask or manner of expression people use to convey their sun, which shows their personality...

The Asc sign is your phsyical body, mode of expression and mask and persona that we ALL wear when we first meet people. Think of a glass milk bottle, the milk inside is your sun sign and bottle is your body. SO, the milk still has to come out via the neck of the glass bottle. The sun sign is our core beliefs, values, pride in the sign and house.

The aspects are just facets of our personality, as we are ALL multifacetd human beings......

Think back to your school days, standing in corridor with your friends and say, i really fancy **...... and then after dating **........ for 4/5weeks you say to your friends, aah but when you get to know him/her there not really like that..........that the mask slipping and the sun sign showing.

hope that helps;)

[waybread]

Just another take on the sun--I really think that it does show "where" (by house) and "how" (by sign) we "shine." I also will ask in looking at a chart, where and how does this person feel most like himself? Is it in a permanent marriage? (7th house) shared with someone who loves to hang-glide? (Aries) Is it in a lovely home, tastefully furnished (Libra in the 4th)?

I think the rising sign is extremely important. One of my primers when I first learned astrology was Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. I still just love 90% of this book, but I think he was incorrect in saying that the AS is like a mask that someone wears. But this threw me off for years. I think the AS is far much more than a mask. As one's body and personality, it is the personal "you" that others see and relate to. In the examples above, for instance, a guy who self-actualizes in hang-gliding with his wife will not show up that way in the office. A 4th house Libra's friends may not even realize how she feels about her home when they go out for coffee. They will see her rising sign.

BTW, Junke, with your Scorpio stellium including your sun and Pluto, and that sextile to your 8th house Venus/Jupiter, you seem to be majoring in "8th chord" energies. Planets aspecting the sun, notably a conjunction are going to colour how the sun operates.

[EJ53]

Maybe the Sun is that part of us which shines only when we drop the masks protecting our ego. When we no longer feel proud of our caring Moon, Mercury intellect, Venus attractiveness, Mars drive, Jupiter wisdom, Saturn self-discipline, Uranus independence, Neptune compassion for others and Pluto determination perhaps the only thing remaining is what we have in our heart/sun.

EJ:)

[Nexus7]

I do think things tend to get very black-and-white in any discussion of the Sun. Perhaps, that is because the popularity of sun-sign columns has trivialised it so much. For me, it reminds me of an analogy from someone who otherwise was all into the whole Crowleyan thing of everyone being a star, etc: it is a bit like the customer who never sees the person waiting on them beyond their prescribed role - well anyway, I think it can be very diminishing.

If all astrology is, is reducing people to their sun signs..then, I am not an astrologer.

One of the ironic things, is that this kind of typing can blind in such a way that all you then see is a stereotype, not a person, and it is on this basis that you decide whhat your attitude is to that person and deciding whether or not you are going to like them/bonk them/live withthem/work with them, or whatever. Apparently, there are towns where flatmates are advertised with such stipulations as 'no Leos please' and so on.

I remember first observing my schoolmates when first getting into astrology and being able to recognise their solar qualities, which were sometimes obvious enough, other times , not so obvious, though here, it was very much a question of knowing what kind of an an (all-too-human) ego you were dealing with.

I think the Sun does, very often, broadly and plainly, show up in body type and overall vitality and energy, but beyond that, I would hope that any spiritual essence of mine might be something to be defined by elements that might just lie beyond any birthchart or the cavalier generalisations of a gossip magazine.

[R4VEN]

Hi Raven, well, another interesting thing I have seen is that in life, we start out by showing our Ascendant and Moon qualities and much lateron in life, when we have (hopefully) acquired more selfconfidence where needed, that we then much better come to express our Sunsign qualities.
Only when Sunsign and Asc. are the same, you dont really get this.
Hi there, starlink -
Yes, I have noticed that also.
My observations have taught me that the sun sign characteristics can (Can, not always) be held quite close to the chest until, as you say, confidence allows the person to `expose' more of themselves to others. :sunny:

[EJ53]

....If all astrology is, is reducing people to their sun signs..then, I am not an astrologer.....

Not reducing to sun signs, Nex............more like making us conscious of our unconscious.......allowing the sun to shine fully rather than through only those planets that we happen to identify positively with..... "To be all we can be" (in this lifetime).

EJ:)

[Nexus7]

'Not reducing to sun signs, Nex............more like making us conscious of our unconscious.......allowing the sun to shine fully rather than through one (or more) planets that we happen to identify positively with..... "To be all we can be" (in this lifetime).'

Whatever, EJ53, but I couldn't stand the way this message was rammed down my throat and told that this part of me, this planet or that planet is not a valid part of me, it made me feel diminished and short-changed somehow, it did nothing for me, anyway.

[EJ53]

....Whatever, EJ53, but I couldn't stand the way this message was rammed down my throat and told that this part of me, this planet or that planet is not a valid part of me, it made me feel diminished and short-changed somehow, it did nothing for me, anyway.

Ok.....we seem to be saying the same thing then.

EJ:)

[starlink]

but I think he was incorrect in saying that the AS is like a mask that someone wears. But this threw me off for years. I think the AS is far much more than a mask.
OOPS, sorry guys, dont know why everything is enlarged all of a sudden, must be my computer. never mind.

Waybread, what I wanted to say about the quoted remark is, that indeed I also dont see the Asc. as a mask per definition. But it is very often the way people like to present themselves as well, putting their best foot foreward.
When I talk to someone who tells me that her marriage has gone sour because the man she married to seems to have changed (or is not the man she thought he was), then it is often seen that that someone has changed from his pleasant Ascendant sign to his Sunsign,showing different characteristics which he did not show when he met her. In order to woe her, he put on his Ascendant mask showing himself in a better light than lateron when he feels confident (sunsign) within the marriage.
When Sunsign and Asc. sign are one and the same, then you get what you see, no matter how unpleasant the person might be.

So to me, the Ascendant very often does show the person's mask. But apart from that, of course, the Ascendant shows much more than only that.
And of course it is the person and it's character others relate to. The only thing others dont get straight away is the fact that this person might be a bit different from what he makes you believe he/she is, no matter how conscious or unconsciously this happens.

That's why we so often hear: he/she is so different now from what I thought he/was. And these changes also very often manifest shortly after marriage.

[Nexus7]

When in love, people project a great deal and only see what they want to see, don't they? Even with two charts in front of you to look at, if Eros is in the front seat and not boring old reason, then a whole lot could be read into the synastry and somehow that tight Venus/Saturn link or the negative possibilities of Mars opposition Mars conveniently overlooked?

Anyway, what I have heard there is that when two people live together, it is neither Sun nor Ascendant, which I think both have more to do with self-projection in the big, bad world, but the Moon sign that gets noticed more and more (all those more intimate ways). And one thing that synastry writers have often emphasied is that incompible moon placements may be all the more difficult to resolve, as they deal with areas of life that are not really that accessible to rationality or reason.

[Awakened_Pisces]

Lets try it. ASC Ruler is the Sun. Sun is in 8th house for me. It's the lone "planet" or star in the 8th unless I add asteroids such as Juno and Eros both of whom are in the 8th. Juno Conjunct Sun BTW. But anyway Sun trines Pluto, giving the ego a power/confidence boost. Leo are already confident as is. So a taint of arrogance(to say the least :P) can be expected with the ASC. And the astrology translation of my Uranus-Sextile-Sun fits perfectly:

Hate the world as it is, hate the people in it. Yet I am ever the empathetic. Hopefully the vast stupidity can one day be helped :)

Neptune also sextiles the Sun(As well as Pluto) there seems to be a theme here of spiritual empathy and transformation. Not to mention the Pisces 8th house is ruled by Scorpio traditionally :).

[waybread]

Interesting comments, all!

Speaking of Steven Forrest, his wife Jodie Forrest wrote just a great book, The Ascendant. One of the few books on this topic to get beyond type-casting people by physical appearance, and to look at relationships via the AC/DC axis. The AC, according to her, is very much how we come across to spouses/partners/GFs/BFs. She has some hilarious material on how someone in a relationship would know if his/her AC was malfunctioning because of the kinds of complaints made by the SO. With Virgo rising, for example, the SO might bristle against the partner's perfectionism and nagging.

Nexus, I often feel frustrated by pop sun-sign astrology. I sometimes feel that the sun's house is more important than the sign in terms of seeing what somebody is up to in life. But then people know their birthdays, and often not their birth times.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Hey even though I name several members I'm aiming this message at everyone :)

Starlink- I guess the problem I have is that I'm a sun and Ascendant Scorpio. I think this is why I have such a hard time differentiating. But will keep an eye out for people maturing into their sun.

Raven- Your description of the Asc certainly fits with its role as the 1st house cusp. You said:

"it's the `filter' which the newborn is born into as it leaves the mother's body to enter the world as an independent being"

Now this fits in with Astro50's analogy with the milk bottle. And I think I understand this. But the bit I don't understand is what is in the milk. The Asc is the bottle, the sun is the milk, but I don't get this bit:

The sun sign is our core beliefs, values, pride in the sign and house.

I always thought our beliefs were shown by our 3rd and 9th house, and our Mercury and Jupiter. The IC and moon show beliefs as habits and culture instilled by our upbringing. I thought values were a 2nd house and Venus thing. This makes is difficult for me to see what the Sun adds on top of other planets. Jeremy says the sun here acts as a CEO, but if that was the case, and the CEO was really co-ordinating the other planets and whipping them into line, then isn't that the role of the bottle, or the Ascendant? In other words, if that was true then the sun is also acting as a filter, so how does one separate it from the Ascendant?

Now the only way I can see past this problem is that the sun shows our internal CEO, but it has an image problem, as despite it being Chief, people still see the Ascendant. So it is difficult for the sun to overcome the Asc as the Asc is how people see us. Just as we might find it difficult to demonstrate our personality when our body looks so contrary- ie I've met people who just have miserable faces in general when they are perfectly happy, but just look that way.

But if this is true, then the Sun isn't very good at its job. Maybe this is why we mature into it as we get older? Is the sun how we see ourselves? Nothing in my description makes reference to us 'shining' or modes of self expression. However I think these two phrases can be used in a more generic description of how we see ourselves and the power we have to create our own personality. This might mean that the sun shows our power to overcome the other planets, as the sun rules creativity. It is how we can change and evolve into should we realise that or self perception (sun) is inaccurate (because of other planets) and not like it.

Eg Imagine an Aries Asc, a Sun Taurus and all the other planets are in Cancer

This person will initially have values, thoughts, beliefs etc all of a Cancerian nature, about the home (4th house) because all the planets are in Cancer. These will be seen by others as being expressed very aggressively, through an Aries filter.
Now the sun here doesn't like this. As our conciousness, in Taurus, it says to itself- why do people think I am being aggressive (ie a question about peoples perceptions) and why am I so moody (ie a question about his actual personality.)
If he doesn't like perceptions about him or his personality- in this instance he may dislike the perception of aggressiveness more than his moodiness as Taurus is more compatible with Cancer than with Aries in this respect- he may want to change.

If he wants to change, then he must use his creativity and ego- his will. He must evolve. He may use his Taurus second house sun to change the perception of aggressiveness through material possessions- he may dress differently etc. But more importantly, he may consciously change himself- he may strive to adopt new values etc, which will modify his natal Cancer moon and Venus inclinations. In this instance this will be made easier by the sextiles to the Cancer planets.

Now if people think this might be true, the only other issue I have is where Mars and Pluto fit in. I thought Mars ruled will and Pluto ruled the power of regeneration. But once again one might say that these planets rule our natal will and regenerative abilities. The sun rules our conscious abilities. If Mars and Pluto are weak, this might have a knock on effect on our sun's ability to conciously change?


Have I cracked it? Does this make sense? Is this kind of what people are trying to tell me? I feel like I'm taking remedial astrology classes and want someone to tell me I've made the grade.

[starlink]

always thought our beliefs were shown by our 3rd and 9th house,
You are right. The 9th house shows religion but also your own life philosophy. Not the Sun. Should the Sun rule that 9th house or be in the 9th, than, you can bring your ideas or believes out through strong self expression. It will almost be a must for you to do so, the Sun wants and needs to express itself. Otherwise, Sun will express other things in the chart, related to the house it rules and is positioned in.

Sun shows the ego necessities. In a strong sign, your ego will come forth strong and maybe a bit egoistical, in a weak sign these tendencies are subdued.

[wilsontc]

Sundance,

You said:
the sun shows our internal CEO...the Sun isn't very good at its job. Maybe this is why we mature into it as we get older? Is the sun how we see ourselves? Nothing in my description makes reference to us 'shining' or modes of self expression. However I think these two phrases can be used in a more generic description of how we see ourselves and the power we have to create our own personality. This might mean that the sun shows our power to overcome the other planets, as the sun rules creativity. It is how we can change and evolve into should we realise that or self perception (sun) is inaccurate (because of other planets) and not like it...Have I cracked it? Does this make sense? Is this kind of what people are trying to tell me?

Here's a simpler way to look at it: instead of looking at the Sun (the energy), take a look at the HOUSE which the Sun naturally rules, the 5th house. The 5th house (self-expression) is right after the 4th house (home) and right before the 6th house (daily work). The 5th house is on the right side of the chart (others) and on the bottom of the chart (inner world).

Now if we take a look at the "life cycle" of the houses, after we develop an awareness of our home (4th house) as being a place that is "other" (i.e., separate from ourself) and still inward-looking, then we begin to "act out" our developing self-awareness of ourselves as SEPARATE from those around us in the 5th house. So we use our energy to show how we are "other"/different/special from those around us, and we want to be recognized for our differences. Later, in the 6th house, we work on PERFECTING those differences that make us special and "other", but right now, in the 5th house, it is enough to put those differences "onstage" and be recognized for them.

And the Sun naturally rules all this 5th house stuff I was talking about. So the Sun is the energy of how we "self-express" our glorious differences and want to get noticed for being the special person that we are.

Noticeably,

Tim

[R4VEN]

Sun shows the ego necessities. In a strong sign, your ego will come forth strong and maybe a bit egoistical, in a weak sign these tendencies are subdued.
Thanks, starlink, for another succinct observation re the ego connections of the sun sign.

Like nexus7 I get a bit freaked when people begin to try to analyse sun signs with no consideration for other features in the chart, like - say - the house the sun is in, just for a start.

Ego necessities - now, I really like that!! :sunny:

One book on ascendants which has been valuable in my own journey for knowledge and understanding is:
"The Rising Sign, your astrological mask"
by Jeanne Avery

[EJ53]

....Sun shows the ego necessities.

and,

....the Sun is the energy of how we "self-express" our glorious differences and want to get noticed for being the special person that we are

For me, both of these comments seem to focus on the negative/selfish characteristics of the Sun. However, I agree whole-heartedly with them if expressed as "the need of the consciousness to create something special".

EJ:)

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Thanks everyone, this makes more sense to me now. I'm just a little surprised that there doesn't seem to be some universal me-consciousness in the chart, as that is how I've always thought most people feel or experience life. Birthcharts always feel a little fractured for me. Maybe people don't see all their internal fractures in real life.

Or maybe it just means a birth chart cannot tell you everything, and there is an element of me-ness which transcends the chart. As if I was the dot in the middle of the chart, looking around and seeing the planets move, and while each describes a piece of me, none of them is me, as in truth I can jump off the page, while the planets are trapped there.

In other words, I thought the sun was more than it really is.

Tim, you truly are a master of adverbs,

Expressively,

Sundance

[AquaAqua]

So the Sun is the energy of how we "self-express" our glorious differences and want to get noticed for being the special person that we are.

Noticeably,

Tim

Yeahhhhhhhh. That issssss Sun!

Agreeably :)

Aqua