Astrology and Freewill

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I really don't know where to place this thread. I worry that placing it in any sub-forum would immediately draw the flavor of that sub-forum into it, even though this concept is applicable to each and every branch of astrology and does not need to be centered to one branch.

I would be interested in hearing everyone's ideas of astrology and its compatibility or opposition to the concept of freewill. Philosophically, astrology is very fatalistic. A child's fate is ascertained by their nativity, a situation's fate is ascertained by a horary chart, the fate of an enterprise is molded via the electional chart that normally accompanies it, and the future of nations are even set by the motion of the sky. It seems there is very little we can do to stop or redefine these fates that have been ascribed to us and it is a rather depressing concept that we cannot escape our stars.

Interestingly enough, it is this fatalistic nature of astrology that put it at odds with the church's doctorine. The church suggested that humans had the ability to shape their lives, while the astrological tradition that preceeded these claims appeared to suggest the very opposite.

So, I was just wondering what everyone here thought of these concepts and how compatible they are or are not in your view. :)

[KayBug]

I am having problems with this myself.

[Spectrum]

The western forms of astrology seem to be very fatalistic and you seem tied to your destiny, but you can overcome through self realisation and spiritual practice. It seems to lift you out of the turning wheel of fortune. I have noticed with many self realised persons they seem to be free of life's burdens and can enjoy a happy existence. Their lives get easier but I would say they are lucky. They have been prepared to rise above the fray and evolve through a spiritual mentorship with a master or guru.

As for me I just do vedic remedies and chant as well as meditate. I love yogic practice but I have had my share of life's ups and downs. I would like to know what the key is, but I guess we all come into this plane with a contract which binds us to circumstances on the Earthly dimension. Like yourself I find fate very unfair and have had my share of difficult life circumstances.

I have elected to have rituals done at temples to appease the planets. It has released me from difficult circumstances. The Eastern Astrologers say that you are not consigned to your fate, but here we are running away from it as though it were a frightening monster or something. Things seems to happen which defy comprehension, there will always be stuff that will cause mishap but you can get very weary with these happenings. I would look into rudraksha, vedic chant, ceremony, pranayam and meditation. I am sure many people know more than this but it is what I do. I have seem very spiritually advanced people get all manner of difficulty, it is just life unfortunately. I don't know how else you mitigate these things...

[Sivitri]

Astrology is a reading of each and every ones ego if you are reading a natal chart, it allows a human to know and develop his/her ego to a certain extent. So i tend to think of astrology as more of a hint to humans to be aware of their own ego. After a certain development of the humans ego, it is thus not governed by planets but by the rays of something i can't remember...(i'll come back to it when i've found out again) So i do think that humans themselves can change the way they live.

[EJ53]

I would be interested in hearing everyone's ideas of astrology and its compatibility or opposition to the concept of freewill.

Hi Kai,

I am a "modernist" who has been closely following your excellent thread on "The Houses: Past and Present" - and, I don't know what I shall believe by the time that ends.

Currently though, I believe soul development is the pupose of any incarnation and the natal chart contains (several) pre-determined/fated destinations. Which of those destinations we follow is a matter of free will - and how far we travel along the chosen path depends upon how well we learn the lessons encountered en route.

For example, the "fated destination" of a South Node path might result in material success/wealth whilst that of the North Node might be spiritual success/wealth. But, if I choose to follow the SN and later realise that my life is "spiritually empty", it is never too late to change course. It may though be too late to achieve the full potential/spiritual growth offered by following the natal north node from Day1.

However, it has taken me over a half-century to recognise that - when I thought I was exercising free-wiill - I was actually following the negative behaviour patterns in my natal chart. A "puppet of the gods" (and the church) rather than a person thinking for himself.

EJ:)

[Inside Out Orange]

Interestingly enough, it is this fatalistic nature of astrology that put it at odds with the church's doctorine. The church suggested that humans had the ability to shape their lives, while the astrological tradition that preceeded these claims appeared to suggest the very opposite.

That's an interesting comment ... I'm not too into the doctrine of church, but if they suggest people can shape their lives what role does a "god" have? I thought gods were meant to be omnipotent. But if they're not what's the point in believing in them if we can go and do our own thing.

As for astrology I'd have said it's the opposite of what you assert. I see astrology as providing insight into our strengths and weaknesses. An indication of the areas of life we will find things easy and where we will struggle.

For example, I have just one planet in a cardinal signs (Uranus in Libra). I'm quite a passive person and find it difficult to initiate projects. That I have Aries on the cusp of the 12th house means that when I do occasionally initiate things I tend to do them in secret. With most of my personal planets in fixed signs makes me someone who is much more willing to run with an existing project and see it through to completion.

[starlink]

Hello Kai, a good thread giving us food for thought, even though personally I have thought about these things for ages and whilst reading through the answers, two things sound very true to me:
First one:

I'm not too into the doctrine of church, but if they suggest people can shape their lives what role does a "god" have? I thought gods were meant to be omnipotent. But if they're not what's the point in believing in them if we can go and do our own things


I very much agree on this one, and that is exactly why I am following the Buddhist philosophy, because it is not a religion, telling us in which God we should believe, but rather to believe in ourselves, the God within if you like.

You told us that the Church proclaims that we can shape our own lives. I am not completely in accordance with this, because the Church also says that we should live and act according to the bible and what God tells us to do and what not to do. This is not entirely shaping your own life, this is not being totally free to do what you want.

Personally, I think, we can shape our own lives up to a certain extend.
That's why I also like the following:

I am fated in the sense that I have to work through complex emotions involving sacrifice, martyrdom, being sensitive to collective longings dreams etc which can all overwhelm me. It is my destiny to work through this energy, where free will comes in is how I handle these difficult energies.

Very true indeed (I think anyways).
I have also been thinking that there where we are "fated "by our charts, is probably the way we look at problems that face us. When we have a very strong Jupiter in favorable connection with our Sun or Mercury, making for an optimistic view of life, then we have far more possibilities to shape our own lives into a more positive direction, then when we have a Mercury-Saturn conjunction or a Sun-Saturn square.
These people will have a much more difficult life I think, because they have very often a negative look on situations, get into a depressive state much sooner when things become very difficult etc. They still have the possibility to try and make things better for themselves, but many dont have the energy or the faith(Jupiter) to hope for things to get better.

I think that a lot depends on our Jupiter and Saturn positions in our chart and there it is where we are "fated".

But we can always try to make things better for ourselves, avoid things when we know they are not good for us.

Life is surely easier for the optimists amongst us. We will never know when for instance natural disaster strucks and we are in the middle of it, or when someone we love runs away or dies, but we can choose how to deal with this. Jupiter can help us to carry on, Saturn could do us in (but not necessarily!!). A bad aspect between Mars and Pluto can turn someone into a murderer, but another person with the same bad aspect, can use that energy very positively, becoming a strong leader.

So all in all I think we can do a lot for ourselves:A lot of fate is at work but I will never rule out free will. I can choose to hurt someone or walk away, I can have self honesty or avoid my self at all costs. as Shining Ray so nicely put it.

Starlink

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

You told us that the Church proclaims that we can shape our own lives. I am not completely in accordance with this, because the Church also says that we should live and act according to the bible and what God tells us to do and what not to do. This is not entirely shaping your own life, this is not being totally free to do what you want.


Okay, apparently there is some confusion on this point and I apologize, perhaps it is the way I worded it. Christianity does have freewill installed in its doctorine, though. Certainly, the church tells us we should live the Bible way and follow the Ten Commandments and all that jazz, but we are not forced to. This is freewill. God gave us the laws and hoped that we would choose to live like he wants us to, but we have the ability to ultimately decide if we want to follow this or follow something entirely different.

If we were forced by fate to follow God's laws, there would be no other religion, ever.

That is the freewill of the church.

[starlink]

Yes, that is true, we are not forced to live like that. I understand what is meant now, thanks Kai.

[KayBug]

I'm having alot of problems with God, how I am suppose to be living and the bible in the last few months. Actually I have been having so many problems with it that it has made me physcially and mentally sick.

[Looking to Jupiter]

I like the comment that spectrum made about running from fate. I think this is one of the things that most of us, on first looking, tend to do. Run from the bad, to find the good. But I think with this, we are prolonging the inevitable. Whether we like it or not.
I dont think anyone has a problem with good fate. (enjoyable, light, easy, harmonious) . It seems it is only the hard fate (the challenging, difficult, unharmonius) that any of us struggle with, and therefore want to have freewill over. I have noticed for myself that it is only when you FACE this challenging fate, that freewill can have a chance to play. You see, I can run from fate, attempting to get ahead of it, but I think this is where I lose freewill. In turning to face fate, I can make clear intentions on how i will let it effect me. What a blessing astrology is to allow this fate to be seen before it trips us over. I mean we all have a choice to turn a blind eye to fate and have it mess with us while we have our backs turned on it (while running away from it), or we can stand firm take it as it is, and try to be in control of how we allow that fate to manifest in our lives.
I must admit, I am struggling with the way of expressing how I feel about fate, but I do believe having some knowledge of what is to happen through astrology, gives us the opportunity to put freewill into action.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I also feel like astrology allows me to fight against fate.

This is an interesting comment to make, as it agrees with the church's doctorine. Ironically enough, the church saw no problem with the concept of medical astrology; the decumbiture charts, they viewed it as an acceptable usage of the art as a medical science, allowing the physician to effectively understand, diagnose (sp?), and treat the ailment afflicting the patient. Elections also earned the stamp of the church's approval, it was seen as a wise usage of freewill to elect a chart for the best outcome. To be honest, I find a dire contradiction in this move by the church. Certainly it seems very creative to assert that elections are a good way to assert one's freewill on the universe, but then I think about how once that freewill is asserted and acted on, the endeavour is bound by fate to play out in the manner described in it's electional chart.

So, yes, the idea sounds cute and church friendly, but once the die is cast, things have to play out like the chart said it would from day one. I believe that's called fate.

Kaybug, talk more about it. Don't just sit there and bemoan the happenings. If it's relevant to the thread's conversation than just say it. I'm not trying to attack you or be rude to you, I just think you have a lot more to say about the subject, but it seems that you're waiting for permission from someone before you say what you're wanting to say.

[Looking to Jupiter]

I wouldn't say astrology allows me to fight against fate. Fate is fate. But knowing about fate, when illuminated by astrology, does give the chance to go with it, or struggle against it. I think this is the freewill. I think in accepting the fate, that we usually would not want to subject ourselves to, lessens its detrimental effect over us. I'm not sure I am being very clear here. Its a hard question and concept, to really verbalize, Kai.

I am not sure about the link with the church. The church has me stumped, and thinking about the church gives me a headache at the best of times, and adding them into the equation of this topic is confusing.:p

[KayBug]

Kaybug, talk more about it. Don't just sit there and bemoan the happenings. If it's relevant to the thread's conversation than just say it. I'm not trying to attack you or be rude to you, I just think you have a lot more to say about the subject, but it seems that you're waiting for permission from someone before you say what you're wanting to say.

I'm a sensitive person reguardles of my Scorpio Ascendent and Moon. I'm sorry if I sound like I am moaning. I have enought **** on my plate right now without dealing with this.

KayBug

[Looking to Jupiter]

I'm a sensitive person reguardles of my Scorpio Ascendent and Moon. I'm sorry if I sound like I am moaning. I have enought **** on my plate right now without dealing with this.

KayBug

Kaybug, I would like to second what Kai has said. You are feeling **** right now. So maybe you can add whether you think that it is fate, dictating to you? Do you think you have a choice to activate free will with what is happening to you? Do you think you have the power to change what is happening to you, through your interest in astrology?
Nobody is here to have a go at you, at most, I guess some here would hope to be able to help you somewhat.
Peace.

[EJ53]

....Elections also earned the stamp of the church's approval, it was seen as a wise usage of freewill to elect a chart for the best outcome. To be honest, I find a dire contradiction in this move by the church.....

and,

...knowing about fate, when illuminated by astrology, does give the chance to go with it, or struggle against it. I think this is the freewill...I am not sure about the link with the church.

I'm about to struggle with what I mean here too but :-

Like JTL (?), I believe true freewill turns out to be nothing more than choosing to accept/go with your chart/soul's purpose or reject it. But, when we resist/fight our "fate", it feels like we are exercising freewill.

Seen in that light, the acceptance by the church of astrological techniques that ease the path towards the soul's purpose seem OK to me. Thus, once I have freely chosen to accept my chart - it is Ok to use astrology to make it easier on myself by staying healthy (medical) and on the right track (elections).

In relation to the thread though, the word "church" is confusing me. Are we talking about Faith (Christian/Buddhist/etc) or Religion (Catholic/Protestant/etc) - because (for me) true Faith encourages us to think for ourselves, whilst religion suppresses free-thinking. Consequently, I have a different view of how each of these fits in with astrology.

EJ:)

[gaer]

Some things to think about, and this does no more than barely scratch the surface…

1) Don't forget how many views there are within Christianity. A little study of predestination and Calvanism might show you how extreme the idea of freewill is limited by certain belief systems.

2) There is a permanent break in philosophy between those who believe we live one lifetime, and those who believe we live many. If we live only one lifetime, life is unfair. Period. If we live many lives, there are countless philosophical ideas that might explain how our lives, plural, DO make sense, but only when looking at the large picture.

3) The kind of astrology we believe in tends to reflect out beliefs about life itself. :)

4) The idea that elective astrology, horary astrology or any other branch of astrology is even potentially infallable is an act of faith. I have never seen any proof that any astrologer who has ever lived could accurately predict the future, consistentely, without error. For that reason I don't see that any kind of astrology either supports or refutes the idea or possibility of freewill. Even if someone can prove a high degree of accuracy in prediction, there are always enough "misses" to allow me to believe that we have at least some ability to decide fate, at least so far as astrology is concerned.

5) The idea that our natal charts or our genetics predestine us to behave in a certain way or to experience certain "fates" might prove absolutely no freewill, or it might point to the fact that we, ourselves, have chosen to be born at a certain time, in a certain place, with a certain body, to learn certain things that we need to learn. Believing one or the other is also a matter of faith, since neither can be proved. Skeptics will always say that the burden of proof is on the believer and point out that there is no scientific evidence supporting the existence of God, life after death, or previous lives—such skeptics will always label mystics as delusional. Mystics will continue to believe that the skeptics, who rule out anything that they can't verify with their five senses and through scientific experimentation or testing, are missing the whole point, looking in the wrong direction.

In short, the whole discussion of whether or not freewill exists or not has been argumed for millenia, and the problem of whether astrology either supports the idea of freewill or precludes it has also been around for millenia.

So good luck working out an answer by the replies in this forum or through your own wisdom ;)

Gaer

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

In short, the whole discussion of whether or not freewill exists or not has been argumed for millenia, and the problem of whether astrology either supports the idea of freewill or precludes it has also been around for millenia.

But that's the whole fun of it! :D

In relation to the thread though, the word "church" is confusing me. Are we talking about Faith (Christian/Buddist/etc) or Religion (Cahtolic/Protestant/etc)

In this thread, the context of the word 'church 'relates to the views of the Catholic priests, cardinals, popes, and the official Vatican stance on the subject.

Seen in that light, the acceptance by the church of astrological techniques that ease the path towards the soul's purpose seem OK to me. Thus, once I have freely chosen to accept my chart - it is Ok to use astrology to make it easier on myself by staying healthy (medical) and on the right track (elections).

I actually think the church accepted these views for purely egotistical reasons. Certainly they accepted the idea of medical astrology (as the ability of proper diagnosis as we know it today was non-existant) to cure people's illness and assist the health of popes and cardinals. They also accepted the ideas of electionals because we could now elect for a pope to formally ascend to the head of the church at the most fortunate time. Make the pope's reign last longer, more prosperous, etc, etc. However, when it comes to natal astrology where the native had no say in the matter at hand, it was a totally different story. Many popes throughout history hid the exact time of their birth from astrologers so no predictions could be made against them or any evidence of scandals could be uncovered.

All this cleverly hidden under the blankets of exercising one's freewill.

1) Don't forget how many views there are within Christianity. A little study of predestination and Calvanism might show you how extreme the idea of freewill is limited by certain belief systems.

This is a good point as well. However, as I stated, I am specifically speaking of a Roman Catholic church. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused. This is a pretty interesting idea, though, I wonder what kind of attitude the Puritans would have taken towards astrology what with their predeterminism doctorine.

3) The kind of astrology we believe in tends to reflect out beliefs about life itself.

This is brilliant!! :D

So good luck working out an answer by the replies in this forum or through your own wisdom

I was never hoping to obtain an answer, I just wanted to see what everyone thought about this philosophical question. :) The only answer to this is a personal one.

[gaer]

I was never hoping to obtain an answer, I just wanted to see what everyone thought about this philosophical question. :) The only answer to this is a personal one.
But of course. :)

It's simply natural to ask questions about "the meaning of life". ;)

Gaer

[EJ53]

I actually think the church accepted these views for purely egotistical reasons. Certainly they accepted the idea of medical astrology (as the ability of proper diagnosis as we know it today was non-existant) to cure people's illness and assist the health of popes and cardinals. They also accepted the ideas of electionals because we could now elect for a pope to formally ascend to the head of the church at the most fortunate time. Make the pope's reign last longer, more prosperous, etc, etc. However, when it comes to natal astrology where the native had no say in the matter at hand, it was a totally different story. Many popes throughout history hid the exact time of their birth from astrologers so no predictions could be made against them or any evidence of scandals could be uncovered.

All this cleverly hidden under the blankets of exercising one's freewill.

Ah Ah!

If we are talking about the Catholic Church - I agree wholeheartedly. But, surely the basis of this "church" has always been wealth/power and control of the masses rather than the development of individual freewill?

So, everything I've said earlier isn't worth a "tinker's curse". (But, it still holds where Church = Faith.)

EJ:D

[Nexus7]

My problem with this question is that someimes, decisions on what is soul development and self-realisation can be defined in very prescriptive ways.

I did come across the idea, expressed in different ways, that it may be more a question of taking the chart onto different lvels rather than overcoming or transcending anythng.

Most people surely would not want to feel that they are going to be'doomed - doomed, I say' by, let us say, a hard Venus-Sautn aspect. Yet we know that such aspects can and do lead to unhappiness and rejection in relationships. Therein in the promise that any kind of self-work, introspection or therapy, or whatever, may offer: that such a person can get to understand the hidden compulsions and motivations that might lead to this initial heartbreak and rejection and ultimately find the way forward to develop more satisfactory relaionships - though the Venus-Satun theme may always be around in in terms of its symbolism in other ways.

[tetka]

Have you ever heard that the spiritually grown people are over the influence of planetary energies? i.e. over the influence of their own natal card? Like Yogananda, maybe Dalay Lama , some saints from India.....
tetka

[tetka]

Have you ever heard that the spiritually grown people are over the influence of planetary energies? i.e. over the influence of their own natal card? Like Yogananda, maybe Dalay Lama , some saints from India.....
tetka

[tsquare]

Have you ever heard that the spiritually grown people are over the influence of planetary energies? i.e. over the influence of their own natal card? Like Yogananda, maybe Dalay Lama , some saints from India.....
tetka
yes, Buddah too.
This is also discussed in magic as well.
The balancing of the energies, the elements in the human body.
Franz Bardon calls it magical equalibrium I believe.
It talks alot of work.
Initiation into hermetics is an interesting text, having somewhat to do with self analysis, atribuiting imbalances in ones self to the elements and imbalances and overcoming those imbablances so as not to be wholly the effect of them.
He also mentions that astrology effects the fates of man, yet one does not have to be wholly influenced by the stars, it just takes work, dedication, determentation.

[flea]

I have been following this thread with great interest... and have been reading some really great writing about life. It is a question I have been pondering a while. A friend of mine talks about life being a combination of Fate Chance and Choice. I like the idea of chance being involved... it seems to bear witness to the unreliability of categorical predictions of the future. EJ and shinning ray, I really relate to what you both say, concerning the soul developing through the pattern of the chart. We seem to have roughly defined energies to work with or patterns of behaviour to resolve, and how we chose to work those out is our choice. Yet we are interdependent with everypart of the universe. So I can relate to the idea of us all being expressions of the same One.

I have also thought about the idea of us all defining what god, ground of being, allah etc etc is, continually exapanding the boundaries of what is by choosing infinite solutions to life. Although I tend to a mystic form of christianity I also find it difficult not to be influenced and moved by some of the writings of many religions and spiritual teachings. My choice in the spiritual matter is to try to find out what I really deeply respond to and feel to be true to be at a particular point in time, yet not to be defined by it.

love light flea

[Looking to Jupiter]

Hi all,

This thread has been really bugging me. Its taken me a while to really work out how I think about astrology and freewill. (thanks for the inner turmoil Kai:p)
Am I allowed to change my mind on this?
I so dont want to be dictated to, by planets! I understand that is what happens when I'm unaware of them, but I am aware of them.;)

I asked a horary question the other day, that had good ol' saturn making a right mess of my question, restricting me on my desired outcome.
Somebody was telling me, that Frawley reckons that the strength of restrictions on perfection depend on the will of the querent. What do you think? I would like to think that will alone, and positive affirmations and a optimistic vibe can change most things.

Its this, that I am now sticking to. I guess the question made me wonder about my faith in astrology and I guess thats why it has been such a hard one. I truly believe awareness gives the upper hand here.

Cheers

[KayBug]

I've read all these posts and now I am really sick. All the posts r great. I'm sick with my own confusion.
KayBug

[EJ53]

I would be interested in hearing everyone's ideas of astrology and its compatibility or opposition to the concept of freewill.
And

The (Catholic) church suggested that humans had the ability to shape their lives, while the astrological tradition that preceeded these claims appeared to suggest the very opposite.


The first quote above seems to be getting a good airing here, but what are everyone's views on the second quote?

For me, the New Testament suggests that we can shape our lives - but the Catholic Church (and other religious doctrines) propose only that we can "save our souls" by following their interpretation of "God's Word". So, Religion's concept of freewill is confined to "do as we (God's representatives on Earth) say or burn in 'ell". And, the purpose of that intentional distortion of the New Testament message by Religions has always been to gain power, wealth and control of the masses - with (in my view) the Catholic Church as the best historical example of this.

(I note a possible link here between this distorttion and that of modern astrology in relation to houses (The Houses Past and Present thread) - but, doubt that the intent of the latter was to mislead it's followers in the deliberate manner that Religions almost certainly have.)

Also,
...will alone, and positive affirmations and an optimistic vibe can change most things.

Agreed (although I'd say will+visualisation) and it echoes the New Testament teaching - "Whatsoever things ye may desire, believe in your hearts that ye have them and ye shall have them" (note the use of present/future tenses here).

EJ:)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

For me, the New Testament suggests that we can shape our lives - but the Catholic Church (and other religious doctrines) propose only that we can "save our souls" by following their interpretation of "God's Word". So, Religion's concept of freewill is confined to "do as we (God's representatives on Earth) say or burn in 'ell". And, the purpose of that intentional distortion of the New Testament message by Religions has always been to gain power, wealth and control of the masses - with (in my view) the Catholic Church as the best historical example of this.

Apparently there's still confusion about this. There is freewill in the world in that there are atheists who do not believe in the Christian God. It doesn't matter that we are eventually punished in the afterlife for not believeing, just that we are not forced by God to believe (in that we are not born baptized and all that jazz, we are not born Christians, we are not born with knowledge of the bible in our heads, it is not our predetermined fate to be Christians at birth) and we can do whatever we want with our lives. As my old youth pastor explained to me, God doesn't want robots. He wants people to follow him because they want to, not because they have to.

The question basically is do astrology and the Christian God see eye-to-eye about this? Personlly, I don't think this is the case. The human experiance has always been dictated by the sky, so I see no need to suddenly separate the two, but this thread wasn't meant for my views on the subject.

Now I'm starting to regret ever having brought up the subject of the official Catholic stance on astrology. I just thought it was relevant in that they were also seeking to reconcile the fatalism of astrology with the freewill concept they sought to spread.

[gaer]

Apparently there's still confusion about this. There is freewill in the world in that there are atheists who do not believe in the Christian God.

You could argue that they are predestined to be non-believers due to their genetics, that they are hard-wired not to believe in God or any kind of higher power. :)

We could say the same thing about agnostics!

What we do or do not believe in does not prove or disprove free will.

It doesn't matter that we are eventually punished in the afterlife for not believeing,

(not all Christians believe this, and not all Catholics believe this either, though it is a very strong belief…)

just that we are not forced by God to believe (in that we are not born baptized and all that jazz, we are not born Christians, we are not born with knowledge of the bible in our heads, it is not our predetermined fate to be Christians at birth) and we can do whatever we want with our lives.

But it could also be argued that we are predetermined by the families into which we are born, even by the countries into which we are born. If we accept the narrow view that there is a Heaven only for Christians, and only for Christians who believe "the right things", and that furthermore it's not enough to be a Christian, you have to be a Catholic, you certainly are out of luck if you are born into a family that believes in Buddhism! :)

As my old youth pastor explained to me, God doesn't want robots. He wants people to follow him because they want to, not because they have to.

I would argue with him that God has not done a very good job in allowing much of the world not to be exposed or converted to his brand of Christianity, if following Him (God) means either becoming a "good Christian", in the conventional, Catholic sense, or being more or less condemned by "not seeing the light".

The question basically is do astrology and the Christian God see eye-to-eye about this? Personlly, I don't think this is the case. The human experiance has always been dictated by the sky, so I see no need to suddenly separate the two, but this thread wasn't meant for my views on the subject.

But again, it all comes to down to one thing: is astrology infallible? Or does it just "god so far", much like our genetics or our personal experience (nurture), in shaping us? If we knew enough, could we predict everything, which I think would disprove free will, or would there still be choices available to us? Do the stars dicate absolutely, or do they compel, pushing us very strong along a predetermined path that restricts our will but that does not absolutely control it?

Now I'm starting to regret ever having brought up the subject of the official Catholic stance on astrology. I just thought it was relevant in that they were also seeking to reconcile the fatalism of astrology with the freewill concept they sought to spread.
We can't talk to Lilly and to any of the famous traditionalists. Maybe they claimed that astrology was nothing but fate, in which case they would be in disagreement with the idea of free will. However, I challenge anyone, at any time, to prove that astrology is infallible, or that any astrologer has been infallible.

I would say, for instance, that if Lilly claimed he could predict everything, or that everything was predictable, preset, predestined by fate, he was at least partially delusional. Now, neither of us has a time-machine, so my opinion is only an opinion, but I don't believe he would have made such claims.

He was far too intelligent! ;)

Gaer

[EJ53]

Apparently there's still confusion about this.....the question basically is do astrology and the Christian God see eye-to-eye about (freewill)?
And,

In this thread, the context of the word 'church 'relates to the views of the Catholic priests, cardinals, popes, and the official Vatican stance on the subject.

Hi Kai,

You are correct, I am indeed confused. For me, Catholic=Religion; Christian=Faith; "Church"=both and the concept of free-will is different for Religions and Faiths.

However, as long as we finally arrive at a clear understanding of the question you are posing - I think my confusion might prove helpful in the end.

So, are you asking for views on how "modern" astrology is reconciled with the Christian/New Testament concept of freewill? (Since, presumably, traditional astrologers refute that concept anyway.)

I am happy to give an open/clear answer to an open/clear question - but, otherwise I just get confused.

EJ:)

[starlink]

Hi Jupiter, Kai, I think both your remarks are very much to the point, at least from my point of view.

Jupiter however, has trouble fitting this in with astrology.

Posted by Jupiter:(for me) true Faith encourages us to think for ourselves, whilst religion suppresses free-thinking. Consequently, I have a different view of how each of these fits in with astrology.


I dont have trouble fitting this in, because if we look at our charts and notice the unavoidable fateful occurrences there, than we should say to ourselves:"OK, this is what can happen to me (maybe, after all we really never know exactly how things will turn on us), but I am warned and I can prepare myself for this as best I can (not fight against it!!, but indeed accepting it and finding a way of softening the blow as it were). This I call having faith in myself (not religious faith) and just believing that I can overcome and work through any problems that will be thrown on my path. So I think that Astrology is a really good tool to indicate our fate, but we then have the free will to either accept or fight/ignore/take action/turn things to our advantage. Personally I do not see "a God" guarding over us, but I always do have the feeling that I am not alone. Maybe a guardian angel looking out for me, I cant really tell you what it is and I also cannot see a "guardian angel" as a person with wings like they are so often pictured. It is more something like a sphere that surrounds you. I dont call this a religious thought, I call it faith in the fact that something positive will eventually emerge. There is always a new beginning, a new view at things, a new approach and attitude available to us. It is our own doing (free will) if we act on this or not.
Personally, I always say to myself "you are not the only one and there are millions who are suffering 100 times more than you do, so stop feeling bad or lonely "or whatever it is that is bugging me at the time.

Posted by Kai:So, yes, the idea sounds cute and church friendly, but once the die is cast, things have to play out like the chart said it would from day one. I believe that's called fate.

Well...., things dont HAVE to play out like that, because that would mean that everything negative will turn out bad and positive always good in the end, which is of course never the case.

It is safe to say that our charts show future fateful events, either difficult one's or nice one's, but like I said before, we can diminish and even turn things around into our favor if we care to think about it. But even good periods are often not used to their best potential which is just as "bad" really, we let good opportunities pass us by.

I Posted by Jupiter:am not sure about the link with the church. The church has me stumped, and thinking about the church gives me a headache at the best of times. Yes, me too!!

Kaybug, I can understand that , when you did believe firmly in a God who is there to protect and save you from awful things, and when bad things DO happen anyhow, you loose faith in that God. See, here we have this church situation again. Try to NOT let your life be guided by something (Gods, fanatic leaders) or someone else, ever. It is your life and you should take own responsability for it;dont wait for something or someone good to offer you the goodies because that might never happen. Only you can do something about your own situation. You can ask for help, listen to it and then decide for yourself if the advice you get is something you can use or not. You can do it Kay, be your own woman! Wish you much strength and you know, we are always here to help one another out.

Cheers, Star.

[Looking to Jupiter]

Quote:
Posted by Jupiter:(for me) true Faith encourages us to think for ourselves, whilst religion suppresses free-thinking. Consequently, I have a different view of how each of these fits in with astrology.


I dont think I was the one who said this. Cant find who it is either, but I am tired ;)

[Sivitri]

Have you ever heard that the spiritually grown people are over the influence of planetary energies? i.e. over the influence of their own natal card? Like Yogananda, maybe Dalay Lama , some saints from India.....
tetka

Yes thats what i've been trying to put my words across to people here. Spiritually grown people are no longer under the influence of the planets. They are controlled by the seven rays of the planet. So, I tend to refer to astrology as a reference to our own ego-selves then a prediction to anything.However, i still do believe in the 80% accuracy of predictions about future. But still freewill is brought forth from the humans on how they use the energies that has been given to them from the planets since birth.

[Sivitri]

Hi Jupiter, Kai, I think both your remarks are very much to the point, at least from my point of view.

Jupiter however, has trouble fitting this in with astrology.



I dont have trouble fitting this in, because if we look at our charts and notice the unavoidable fateful occurrences there, than we should say to ourselves:"OK, this is what can happen to me (maybe, after all we really never know exactly how things will turn on us), but I am warned and I can prepare myself for this as best I can (not fight against it!!, but indeed accepting it and finding a way of softening the blow as it were). This I call having faith in myself (not religious faith) and just believing that I can overcome and work through any problems that will be thrown on my path. So I think that Astrology is a really good tool to indicate our fate, but we then have the free will to either accept or fight/ignore/take action/turn things to our advantage. Personally I do not see "a God" guarding over us, but I always do have the feeling that I am not alone. Maybe a guardian angel looking out for me, I cant really tell you what it is and I also cannot see a "guardian angel" as a person with wings like they are so often pictured. It is more something like a sphere that surrounds you. I dont call this a religious thought, I call it faith in the fact that something positive will eventually emerge. There is always a new beginning, a new view at things, a new approach and attitude available to us. It is our own doing (free will) if we act on this or not.
Personally, I always say to myself "you are not the only one and there are millions who are suffering 100 times more than you do, so stop feeling bad or lonely "or whatever it is that is bugging me at the time.


Well...., things dont HAVE to play out like that, because that would mean that everything negative will turn out bad and positive always good in the end, which is of course never the case.

It is safe to say that our charts show future fateful events, either difficult one's or nice one's, but like I said before, we can diminish and even turn things around into our favor if we care to think about it. But even good periods are often not used to their best potential which is just as "bad" really, we let good opportunities pass us by.

I Yes, me too!!

Kaybug, I can understand that , when you did believe firmly in a God who is there to protect and save you from awful things, and when bad things DO happen anyhow, you loose faith in that God. See, here we have this church situation again. Try to NOT let your life be guided by something (Gods, fanatic leaders) or someone else, ever. It is your life and you should take own responsability for it;dont wait for something or someone good to offer you the goodies because that might never happen. Only you can do something about your own situation. You can ask for help, listen to it and then decide for yourself if the advice you get is something you can use or not. You can do it Kay, be your own woman! Wish you much strength and you know, we are always here to help one another out.

Cheers, Star.

Ah... yes Star, I agree with you. I tend to believe god as life itself. So problems brought to the human in lie itself is basically a test to allow each of our souls to mature and grow spiritually. So kaybug if you really wish to overcome any problems do not just seek out a replacement and just blame it entirely upon it. Seek out the true problem in yourself, your spirit. What has gone wrong, don't just go blaming god for everything.

[tetka]

Sivitry totally got my point, thank you for sing it. :)


I also want to say my opinion about church and freewill:
In a first place church is institution not a religion.
I am orthodox Christian and you know what word orthodox means. But no matter if you are orthodox or catholic or protestant, my personal opinion is that Christianity doesn’t give any right of freewill thinking. Those two terms are not connected in any way. Christianity is with hard, closed up energy in itself (for god sake they all wear black color). From the other side there is Buddhism, maybe Hinduism, maybe shamanism (not sure) which have quite another energy, where is allowed and it is stimulated physical and spiritual growth in a human being. Inside of us we grow. God is not outside of us it, is in us. Concepts between Christianity and let say Buddhism, Hinduism… are different: in chr. you obey and follow –no free will, in others you follow and develop yourself, you grow up.
Simple example that happened in my country yesterday- the church come out with attitude that it doesn’t agree with any other way of making child but natural- it means they don’t agree with in vitro process. Why? Where is the meaning of the progress in medicine (in this case). Lets stay in 10th century then…… ( I am very angry about this statement of the church. And this is only one thing why I feel myself everything else but Christian. But also my natal card says so hehehe).

[starlink]

Sorry Jupiter, you are right,I think it was EJ53 who actually said this about fitting in with astrology. I am also getting a bit confused by it all, but still , I find it a very good subject to think and exchange ideas about!
You just take a rest now :) :), Starlink

[EJ53]

Sorry Jupiter, you are right,I think it was EJ53 who actually said this about fitting in with astrology. I am also getting a bit confused by it all, but still , I find it a very good subject to think and exchange ideas about!
You just take a rest now :) :), Starlink

Hi Starlink,

Yes, it was me who said this But I was referring to having differing views of how astrology fits in with (for me) the opposing views of freewill according to Faiths and Religions. Thus, I agree with your comment on this comment in relation to the Christian/Buddhist/etc concept of freewill But not in relation to the Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox concept of freewill.

Tetka,

I think you may be using the word "institution" to mean the same as my use of the word "religion" - ie. an organised body that deliberately suppresses free-thinking, for it's own ends.
If so, that illustrates the point that I have been trying to make throughout this thread - which is that the words used in the question need to be clearly defined to avoid confusion. Otherwise, we are all answering a different question - based upon our understanding of the words involved. AND, the word "church" in particular is open to several interpretations here.

All,

Many of the apparently differing views expressed in this thread might not actually reflect different opinions - but rather different interpretations of the question due to our individual (and differing) understandings of some of the words (and ideas) used therein. For me, the question itself is challenging enough without also being distorted by the semantics involved.

However, as I understand the question currently, the comments in Gaer's last post seem right to me - and I don't seem to disagree with anything said by anyone so far. In fact, we all seem to be "singing the same song" on this one - but maybe the theme is "we can use astrology to influence our destiny - whether or not that belief can be reconciled with the views of the church and/or traditional astrology".

EJ:)

[tetka]

Quite right ej53. I agree with defining the meaning of the words.

[starlink]

EJ53,
Thus, I agree with your comment on this comment in relation to the Christian/Buddhist/etc concept of freewill But not in relation to the Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox concept of freewill.

Indeed, so do I . This is actually the simplest way of putting it!
Cheers, Star.

[Nexus7]

Here are one or two other things to consider.

There is what the case studis of twins separated at birth shows - the extraordinary coincidences that seem to characterise their lives, despite their not knowing eachother: having identical tastesin cigarette brands, jelewelery, clothing: marrying spouses with he same name on the same date, having children with the same nameson the same dates and so forth.

John West has plates which show a picture of a pair of identical twins. But they were not biological twins, just time twins. He also includes many case studies of time twins whose lives also show similar parallel coincidences, like those of the examples given above.

It might be interesting for individuals here if they could find time twins and compare lives. I only met someone sharing my birthday in the dsame year once, when I was doing a psychic fair once. It was diffcicult, however, to see that many parallels and whilst he seemed to be a morning birth like me too, his Ascendant must have been different. And he was a man and mostl lilely, there is a diference in the way some key planets are expressed.

He was not expecially communicative,, so it had I had the cahnce to get to know him, more similarities might have emerged.

Anyone with any stories to tell of any time twins they have et, or of stories of time twins thexy have known personally, to share?

[gaer]

Here are one or two other things to consider.

There is what the case studis of twins separated at birth shows - the extraordinary coincidences that seem to characterise their lives, despite their not knowing eachother: having identical tastesin cigarette brands, jelewelery, clothing: marrying spouses with he same name on the same date, having children with the same nameson the same dates and so forth.

Here you are talking about what we usually call "identical twins". In this case, I think the similarities can be as easily explained by genetics as by astrology.

Similarties in "time twins", what I know of as "fraternal twins", seesm to me to be a much stronger suggestion of astrology.

For about a year and a half I taught twin girls, "time twins". There were similarities, of course (same family, obvious genetic connections), but we all know how completely different two sisters born even one year apart can be.

These two girls SEEMED to me to be rather different to me, at first, but the more I worked with them, the more obvious it becamse to me that they WERE very similar. First of all, although one appeared to be more advanced than the other, better at music, over time they were almost dead even in progress. They also shared many basic temperamental traits.

However, they were different enough that I would have a hard time trying to explain all the differences through the chance that they were born at different times. (I was never able to find out what the interval was between their births. It may have been mintues, or it could have been much longer. One was very stoic, quiet but cooperative and never complained. The other cried (total perfectionist) and was very moody. I had the mother in the room and constantly asked if I was doing anything wrong. The mother said absolutely not, that it was just her temperament, and that she was working on it!

Gaer

[KayBug]

There r things I have wanted to write on this thread but I never know at what time what I want to write.

I get tired of feeling bogged down by astrology and God. So today I threw them both out the window and did what I wanted to.

We shall see how this turns out.

KayBug

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

You are correct, I am indeed confused. For me, Catholic=Religion; Christian=Faith; "Church"=both and the concept of free-will is different for Religions and Faiths.

Well, stop thinking about it in differing connotations. I was speaking of the Catholic church and their official stance as they attempted to reconcile astrology with freewill, this battle occured between the 1400s-1500s, and eventually it took several people and their clever creativity to find a way to reconcile the two disciplines. That was the only point I was trying to make with it, and it seems everyone has enjoyed making it an obstacle to conversation.

So, are you asking for views on how "modern" astrology is reconciled with the Christian/New Testament concept of freewill?

I'm asking how people personally reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewil. It doesn't have to necessarily be the Christian idea of freewill, even though I'm not sure how it would change from religion to religion as freewill is freewill.

Gaer, your whole post made 0 sense to me. Sure, it can be argued many things, but I think you're trying to attack the Christian concept of freewill by coming up with several scenarios. At this point I don't care what can or cannot be argued, Christian doctorine teaches we have the freewill to do whatever we want with our lives, human life is not bound up by predeterminism. Astrology on the other hand dictates that everything is set by the stars. You can attack that or disagree with that all you want to and that's perfectly fine, but it is not the point of this thread to agree or disagree with the notion of freewill and create seemingly fated scenarios that argue for predeterminism. The point is just finding out everyone's views of freewill and how it is compatible or not compatible with astrology. I'm not sure what the infalliability of astrology has to do with anything, just because an astrologer fails to interpret it doesn't mean a chart doesn't say it and it doesn't mean it won't happen. It just means that nobody saw it coming. (in this paragraph when I said "Christian" I meant Catholic...oh, you know)

[Nexus7]

Gaer

Here are some questions that I do not intend in any with any spirit of sarcasm, but rather to look at this question as closely as we can without falling into either James Randi or Dawkins-style debunking or the conversion zeal of astrological fundies:

Has genetics been able to pinpoint tastes in cigarette brands and cardigan styles yet, then? Or in a tendency to marry spouses with the same name, or to christen heir children or their pets with the same name?

What does the law of probability say about coincidences such as these?

These biological-twin stories actually found their way into an English textbook of mine incidentally rather than either scientific or astrological journals, but for anyone interested, they focussed on the case of the so-called 'Jim twins' if that rings any bells, and a study purportedly carried out by one Prfessor Jim Bouchard a he Universiy of Minnesota.

I think folk wisdom has certainly known about time twins for some time, Thrasyllus purportedly saved himself execution by Teberius by telling the later that thery were time twins and that if, he, Thrasyllus were to die, then the emperor's own death would be sure to follow only too soon. Edgar Allne Poe wrote about a pair of time twins in William Wilson, where one becomes the dark Doppelganger of the other.

As for wins, I have certainly known identical twins and and frateranl wins, bt not ones separated at birth. Stephen Arroyo calims to have known adult twins who were at different levels spiritually, though judgements like these leave me a little queasy. Who is to say that chanting mantras is more evolved than listening to rock bands? The former could just be a fashion victim bending to what she thinks is more evolved spiritually, whilst the other could be displaying more genuine autonomy through her own brand of artistic honesty.

Finally, can anyone remember the story of the French King in Liz Greene's treatise on the topic of fate, the one where Nostodamus and Gauricus, both skilled astrologers of he day, each predicted the said King's death to the day and under the same ciscumstances.

Greene reckons that most people now havw more free will than do those living in Medival imes, thanks to the benefits held out in the Hermetic - or Gnostic promise - that redemption form the compulsive pull of he 7 planets can be found through introspection and therapy.

However, I would doubt that any modern king or oresident would fare any better than those born in Nostradamus's time - I should think that figureheads, due to timetables and obligations decided by their office might make them a whole lot more fated than your averga Joe Bloggs. Would President Kenndy, for example, have felt 'free' to develop political flu at the last minute on the strength of what an asrologer told him, even if he had been able to admit to employing an asrologer in the first place?

[DreamOfDawn]

This thread just remind of me of something interesting that I read a while back.....although, it has more to do with Chinese astrology. In Chinese astrology, it says that 40% of life depends on what stars and planets are in your birthchart (actually, quite similar to western birth charts), another 40% depends on the current year, then the last 20% depends on you (aka free will). Don't underestimate this 20%, because it could be a very poweful force.

[athan]

There r things I have wanted to write on this thread but I never know at what time what I want to write.

I get tired of feeling bogged down by astrology and God. So today I threw them both out the window and did what I wanted to.

We shall see how this turns out.

KayBug

I can totally relate to this Kaybug!

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

In the book The Fated Sky, the author recounts several tales of astrologers accurately predicting death and whatnot. The problem with these recorded predictions though, obviously, is whether they are true or not. Stories blown out of porportion or just downright lies.

One story relates to an emperor asking an astrologer how he (the astrologer) was going to die. The astrologer confidently explained that he already knew he was to be torn apart by dogs and accepted it as his fate. In an attempt to fight against fate, the emperor had the astrologer arrested, executed, and burned to ruin his supposed fate. However, the winds carried the smell of the burning meat into the direction of the forest, and a pack of wild dogs reportedly came from the forest and ripped the burning corpse to shreds.

Certainly the dogs did not kill him, but the astrologer did correctly describe his ending by their teeth. Fate or fable?

Girolama Cardano, a famous medical astrologer of the time, was called upon to cure the illness of Archbishop John Hamilton. After discovering the disease was a form of asthma and cured it, he was asked to look into Hamilton's future, to this he replied: "I have been able to cure your sickness, but I cannot change your destiny - nor prevent you from being hanged." History tells us that Hamilton was hung eighteen years later for treason outside of the palace gates of Queen Regent. Again, fate or fable?

Regarding skepticism and whatnot, Ptolemy shares this thought with us. "It has been supposed that even such events as have been truly predicted have taken place by chance only, and not from any operative cause in nature. But it should be remembered that these mistakes arise, not from any deficiency or want of power in the science itself, but from the incompetency of unqualified person who pretend to exercise it...The reproach...thus brought upon the science is wholly unmerited; for it would be equally just to condemn all other branches of philosophy because each numbers among its professors some mischievous pretenders."

[KayBug]

Ok, Now.....I am finally going to try to post to this thread. Most of you know me so please be kind with your answers.
I am 58 years old. I have been a christian all my life. I have always believed in God, Jesus dying for my sins and trying to live the life I should be living which I made quite a mess of. But anyway,
My Father was an abusive alcholic and my Mother was into her own problems. Both were crazy in my book.
When I was 8 yrs old, I use to pray to God, to take my Father or to take me or if nothing else to change things. I prayed this every night, night after night. Well, guess what? Nothing changed. Mind u I was 8 yrs old.
I now think, well why would he change my life when all these other young chilren r raped, murdered, etc.
Then when I got to be 25 my Father died. Bit to late to help me. My MOther finally acted like a real person and got lung cancer. I sat at the foot of her hospital bed and prayed for him not to take her becuase I needed her so much.
Well that prayer wasn't answered so I figured a few yrs later that he did me a favor by getting them out of my life so I could have a life.
And the bible says "anything u ask in my name I will give u".....ummmm huh thats a lie.
I am not bitter about all this stuff mind u, I have gotten to the point its all lies and life *****.
I don't know what my chart says about my life, actually I wonder if it would even matter.
I don't believe in anything anymore except for one thing. My Father told me, "If anyone said life was going to be easy, they lied".
I'm totally upset that my belief system exists no longer as we all need to believe in something.
KayBug

[EJ53]

KayBug,
The Cosmos gives us what we need rather than what we want.

Nexus7,
My mother was born one minute after her twin sister - and they were raised together. Physically, they bore no resemblence at all.

My mother married a boy/man she knew from the age of 4; had 8 children (all of whom are still alive); and died at the age of 73 (despite being in perfect health until my father's death 18 months earlier). They were financially poor throughout their lives, but always happy and excited about life.

Her sister married a wealthy man from outside her own social circle; had 1 child (who died at 40) and is still alive at 87 (having buried her husband some 30 years ago). She too has always been happy and excited about life - but that's about the only thing she and my mother had in common.

Kai,
The Catholic Church has moved on from the 1400s-1500s - with many of it's flock now describing themselves as "Jungian Catholics". Perhaps, traditional astrology needs to move out of the Middle Ages too.

Now that you're defining your question as "how (do) people reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewill" - My answer is that I do not see astrology as fatalistic, so have no need to reconcile it with the concept of freewill.

Isn't the current definition of your question now the same as asking how modern astrologists reconcile their concept of freewill with the traditional view that astrology is fated. Since this is a very different question to that first asked, maybe my confusion has indeed served a useful purpose after all.

Gaer - DreamOfDawn - Shining Ray

I agree with what the three of you say - and particularly like the Chinese Astrology view.

:)

[KayBug]

If the cosmos gives us what we need children would not be starving to death or does there chart say they will starve and die.

Better they not know it.

KayBug

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Kai,
The Catholic Church has moved on from the 1400s-1500s - with many of it's flock now describing themselves as "Jungian Catholics". Perhaps, traditional astrology needs to move out of the Middle Ages too.

No doubt the Catholic chuch has moved on, now they don't like astrology period. Is that better for you? Such a great change, right? You're totally missing the point...

Now that you're defining your question as "how (do) people reconcile the fatalism of astrology to the concept of freewill" - My answer is that I do not see astrology as fatalistic, so have no need to reconcile it with the concept of freewill.

Explain that. That's the whole point of the thread.

Isn't the current definition of your question now the same as asking how modern astrologists reconcile their concept of freewill with the traditional view that astrology is fated. Since this is a very different question that first asked, maybe my confusion has indeed served a useful purpose after all.

The question has been the same since the thread's creation, it's never changed. The only reason I used the Catholic Church as an example (I believe I've said this about five times now) is that it was an organization attempting to reconcile the two opposing viewpoints into one. It doesn't have to be a modern vs traditional thing, but thanks for opening back up that rift. Can there not be modern astrologers that see things as fated? Oh, well, I guess that runs contrary to the definition. Is it contradictory for traditional astrologers to accept the idea of freewill? So much for that stereotype. Your confusion has only served to knock this thread off its intended discussion...

If the cosmos gives us what we need children would not be starving to death or does there chart say they will starve and die.

I really liked this idea.

[Looking to Jupiter]

Bit off thread, sorry, but I really want to say this to Kaybug,

All you need to ask of yourself and God is to be happy. Dont worry about the particulars. Thats where I think you have got it wrong. You could find happiness in any situation, without being specific, if you ask. Tell yourself each morning that you are happy. Its like the timestables, you say them enough, your subconscious mind remembers them. You need to retrain your mind, to allow yourself to be happy. If you make your happiness conditional on things outside yourself occuring then you are bound to be upset with what happens to you. Is it possible that your father each day prayed to be alive? Do you get where I am at? Without changing the fate of anyone else, you can be happy. Really. All you have to do is tell yourself you are.
I know of a really good book that could help you. Its called MIND POWER IN THE 21ST CENTURY by John Kehoe. He helps you to work out the things you are saying to yourself that are actually the things that are making you unhappy.And how to change them. Take a look if you get the chance.

Much luck to you

Also, tell yourself that you are already happy. Dont ask to be happy in the future. Tell yourself you already are and you soon will be.:)

[Sivitri]

Why would people see death as something so bad, dramatic? Isn't it part of life to die? Dieing is just a death of the physical body not the death of a soul... Once a person dies they still go back into the circle of life and be reborn somewhere a better person in a better life... And their soul prolly chose this life because they wanted the knowledge... the experience.... You never know but your soul might have gone through the same experience before? You forgotten...
Nothing in life is without a purpose.... all things have their purpose in our lives....

[EJ53]

Why would people see death as something so bad, dramatic? Isn't it part of life to die? Dieing is just a death of the physical body not the death of a soul... Once a person dies they still go back into the circle of life and be reborn somewhere a better person in a better life... And their soul prolly chose this life because they wanted the knowledge... the experience.... You never know but your soul might have gone through the same experience before? You forgotten...
Nothing in life is without a purpose.... all things have their purpose in our lives....

and

Also, tell yourself that you are already happy. Dont ask to be happy in the future. Tell yourself you already are and you soon will be

I really liked these ideas.

Kai,
Actually, I don't care if the Catholic Church like astrology or not - why would I (or indeed anyone who thinks for themself)?

I have already explained why I do not see astrology as fatalistic and why I do see it as encouraging freewill. Why would I try to reconcile something that I believe does not exist with something that I believe does?

I've never come across a modern astrologer who did not believe in its inherent assumption that we can influence our destiny. Can you point to any traditional astrologers who accept the idea of freewill?

Is it my confusion or your question that re-opens the rift you refer to?

OK, time for me to go - to allow this thread/discussion to proceed in the direction you intended. It's been stimulating (and enjoyable) - many thanks for that.

EJ:)

[flea]

http://www.hasanyonetoldyou.com:80/

We can all chose to bring a positive brighter thought into the world. I think maybe we underestmate the vastly different world we would live if we all chose to think of a brighter tomorrow instead of one that is daunting.

Maybe freewill is as simple as that single choice.

love light flea

[gaer]

Kai,

I've never come across a modern astrologer who did not believe in its inherent assumption that we can influence our destiny. Can you point to any traditional astrologers who accept the idea of freewill?

I've spent quite a bit of time reading through various threads on the Skyscript site, which for obvious reasons is at least centered around what people there would most definitely call traditional astrology.

My impression is that the people there differ hugely in philosophy. You are assuming that most if not all people who use "modern astrology" believe in free will—and believe that astrology does not in any way preclude free will. For the most part, I would agree with that.

However, I believe you are also assuming an automatic link between traditional astrology (including traditoinal astrology as it is being used today) and fatalism.

It's not that simple. I think that believing that ANY kind of astrology precludes freewill takes a leap of faith, namely believing that the heavens don't merely have a huge effect on mortal affairs but completely control them. :)

Gaer

[EJ53]

I believe you are also assuming an automatic link between traditional astrology (including traditoinal astrology as it is being used today) and fatalism.

It's not that simple. I think that believing that ANY kind of astrology precludes freewill takes a leap of faith, namely believing that the heavens don't merely have a huge effect on mortal affairs but completely control them. :)

Thanks for this Gaer - I was making that assumption and it helps to know it is invalid/I need to think on it again.:)

My "understanding" of traditional astrology is (at best) scant, as I had never given it any consideration before joining this Forum in Feb 2008 - so, my "understanding" is confined to what has been said in this and a couple of other threads I've been following.

Regrettably though, my comments arising from that limited knowledge appear to have unintentionally diverted this thread/discussion away from that intended rather than served as a stimulus to learn. However, I am hopeful that I can still learn something here as an observer.

EJ:)

[Caprising]

Kaybug, I have come to believe that if one wants to enter earth in a physical body, in order to effect changes to the "lost" human race, then these "experiences" of violence, rape, pain etc. are the price some of us have to pay, we don't remember where we came from, (we lose our memory of our past on the earth plane),and religions and those who run the world generally keep us in the dark and feed us mostly ********. If you want to know more about the spiritual side of life, and make some sense of this place, I would highly recommend Michael Bonds book entitled "eve of the apocalypse". He has a website , but you may have to search a bit, sometimes I have trouble finding it (computer glitches I think!) , This isn't another 'positive thinking" book of which there are thousands, it's more of an indepth look at life on the earth and how to make sense of it, just to give you an idea of how clearly this guy explains things that I wouldn't have a hope in **** of working out, I will ask you a question about adam and eve in the garden of eden. As I remember, there were 4 of them, Adam, Eve, the serpent and god, one of these 4 was telling lies :eek: Do you know who told the lies? The answer will suprise you, it was the god telling the fibs....Don't believe it??? lie no. 1, god said to eve that if she ate the apple then she would die that very day! She lived to be around 9oo years old before she passed on, (the humans lived a lot longer back before they had their d.n.a. tampered with) Thats only one suprise, the book is full of pleasant suprises, as well as the odd shock, but you don't have to read it all at once, Oh, and life is meant to be very good, we have just been sidetracked into thinking that life should be tough. It shouldn't. If you want to understand why your probably not enjoying life as much as what you could be then this book is a must have. Do yourself a favour and buy it. Cheers Caprising.

[starlink]

Excellent suggestion Caprising!

[KayBug]

god said to eve that if she ate the apple then she would die that very day!


She did die that day. She died inside and all the total goodness was gone. She then had the knowledge of evil. She felt shame of her naked body. The death was not a phsycial one of the body. The body just being the shell/carrier for the soul here on earth.

[starlink]

Lupin,
Our charts reflect that,it gives us the life we deserve and it's up to us to learn the lessons we have created for ourselves.
Yes, I also believe this. I found it interesting to read what you said about the evolved individuals because that sounds very logical to me. These are the people who come back as spiritual teachers.

Kay, She died inside and all the total goodness was gone.
Well yes, I believe this is what was actually meant .

And Kay, please dont feel bad about the fact that your believe system has let you down. Thing is, you might finally have seen the light! You should not even think of having a "System" to believe in and expecting that system to make your life better and help you get out of trouble. It just does not exist. You can NEVER EVER expect anything or anyone else to make you happy and give you a good life. Some women marry rich men, because they think that these men will provide them with a good life. Most of these women are more miserable than a farmers wife who has to get up at 5 in the morning everyday milking the cows. Why? because they have no self value, they only value other people, other systems, other peoples money,etc. Like I said earlier on, there is a "God" within us, you can help yourself, you are the one who can make life better by thinking positively, by NOT letting sad things bring you down, but accepting them as a thing of life. Try to find happiness in the smallest things. Dont expect your children to make you happy, try focussing on something that gives you satisfaction, because satisfaction gives you a happy feeling. It can be anything from gardening to helping other people.

My sister is very very God loving and believing. She is so fanatic about it that she thinks that my astrology is pure blasphemy. She is the one who went from one bad experience into another. Still, she prayed and prayed for herself and the rest of the world.
Last week she called me and told me that she had gone to some sort of Christian meeting and was finally freed from all her pain and sorrows and loneliness and you name it that she had felt all those years. I was asking myself how she could have felt like this when her believe system (God) was supposed to make her feel happy and fulfilled (which she always claimed!! and tried to convince others to believe as well)I am afraid she is totally lost at the moment, even though she claims to have seen the light. She will be like that until she is capable to look inside instead of outside for help.

I know that this is very very difficult to do, but I think it is the only way. Rely on yourself, have faith in yourself. I myself follow the Budhist way of thought and that helps enormously. It helps to forgive, to love and to let go. that is all you need to become a happy person, even when life treats you rough.
Cheers, Starlink

[KayBug]

Star
My belief system, belief in God didn't let me down. I was just going through an extremely depressed period. I didn't lose my faith. I did as many christians can do when faced with emormouos odds, I questioned.
I have been going through some real internal questioning about myself, my religious beliefs, not my faith and belief in God, but just religious beliefs, and questioning what my purpose in the world is.
I had what I call a revelation last night which made me cry. I call them revelations. I'm sure other people have other names for what I am talking about. I cried again this morning when I thought about it. It was not sad weeping but one of somewhat relief that something good and beneficial had come to me with all the internal struggles I have been having.
The quest for the answers I am seeking is not over yet but the big ones have been answered so I feel much better.
I did have to go to the doctor this morning for ear infection, sinus infection, nasal drainage, headache etc. I have horrible allergies and this time of yr is killing me. I walked out of the office with 6 prescriptions and got 2 injections. Yellow pollen is so thick here u can wash the car off one day and write your name in the pollen again the next day. I did tell God he could have kept some of that pollen for himself and not given us quite so much of it. :D
KayBug

[starlink]

HOW ABOUT THIS ONE FROM AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN FRAWLEY:


Q: What about the free will and predestination issue?

The debate just shows how little people understand the concept of free will: when most people talk about 'free will', what they actually mean is 'free whim'. What the chart tends to show you, is what your will actually is - the end product. It's your final wish to the fairies, saying 'Put it back as was before please, take this sausage off the end of my nose!'

That's your will.

[starlink]

Dear Kaybug, well it is a relief to me to read what you wrote. It is a couple of days later, that's why I did not see your answer. I am very happy for your that you got a revelation as you call it and that it has helped you to feel better. It is always good to question things about your life, the direction you are taking, what is good for you and what you should avoid. I am questioning things most of the time which can make me moody and silent, wanting to be by myself. That is OK for me, because I know it is the right way to work through things for me. Especially when one is older, more and more things are being questioned and criticized and what not, but also appreciated more than when one is young. Take care of your health and oh yes, we also get that yellow stuff on our cars but later in the year. It enters your house, is just everywhere, absolutely awful. I know what you're talking about!!
Then we also have a huge tree nearby, producing once every 2 years or so some sort of cottonwool. Good Lord, when that comes of, it looks like it has snowed in your garden. That one is worse than the yellow pollen!

[lillyjgc]

Hello all,
This has been a fascinating discussion so thanks Kai for *putting the idea out there*!
I've been pondering this basically since I first became interested in horary astrology.However, one of my clients has demonstrated this idea to me. Let me explain.
A few years ago a client broke up with her partner.She was unable to cope with her decision to end their relationship so she asked me to construct a horary chart...*Will we ever get back together?*.The chart indicated that there was a real possibility that reconcilation would occur, but that it might take a *long time*....and that it would require her to eat a substantial amount of humble pie in effect as she had judged him wrongly and harshly and after she left him she tried to ruin his reputation.But the chart showed signs of possible reconstruction of the relationship.
So what did she do? Unwilling to embark on a long journey of seeking his forgiveness, and applying healing to the situation, she harassed, stalked and tried to manipulate the situation so she would *run into him* on a regular basis.Eventually she went to his house drunk and had an accident that then involved him in a complicated legal process.Her actions resulted in him having to relocate which cost him money and interfered with his peace of mind.
He has recently told her *again* in no uncertain terms, that there is no hope whatsoever of reconciliation *EVER* because the way she behaved since the break up showed him aspects of her nature he had not experienced before.
Of course she was quick to let me know *I got the chart wrong*!!!!But it was a very clear illustration of the way *free will* may *interfere* with our *karma*-I look to mars in the natal to describe whether a native is likely to act from an evolved perspective or not. In this woman's case, her natal mars was part of a grand cross, so it was the *use* of her freewill that sabotaged her wishes, or destiny.The horary did interestingly show that *mars* would be a big player- ie...the actions taken would play a big role in the outcome, and this part definitely played out.
Lillyjgc

[starlink]

Hi EJ, you wrote:

My "understanding" of traditional astrology is (at best) scant, as I had never given it any consideration before joining this Forum

Neither did I, but thanks to Horary (which is traditionally based)I am really getting hooked on it and I think that it indeed gives so much more details and information that I want to use it consistently from now on.

Star.

[Caprising]

Free will and determinism, which would you rather find? At the end of the day, we would rather find freewill, who would like to believe that we have no free will to change our circumstances or destiny? Not I............I know one thing, I will always be open to intuition,(or 'guardian angels" , call it what you will) it saved my life a few years back. I just wish that I had uranus in cancer, a direct emotional connection to intuition!

[tsquare]

Well, I guess this won't be oftopic, I thought it may, but how can fate and freewill not contain a slight vere into the realm of karma...?
I came across a no-bull, simply put deffinition of karma today and I had to laugh about it....then I looked at it again and I liked it even more....
Here it is.

To sum it up nicely: **** happens because people think that **** should happen to them because they caused **** to happen to someone else AND they are afraid to admit it.

Max J. Sandor Ph.D.


====================================
Laughing,
Tsquare

[Sivitri]

To sum it up nicely: **** happens because people think that **** should happen to them because they caused **** to happen to someone else AND they are afraid to admit it.

Max J. Sandor Ph.D.



Hah! thats funny!
About freewill.... I find it funny that i was once so into finding this real meaning of life... Only to find out that its really that difficult... Well not as if its difficult its just that my sub-concious mind actively rejects it... I cannot concentrate at all on this finding of true meaning of life... My life so far has been smooth and why do i want to go against all that i have believed in and go a difficult way then compared to my current life? Isn't that will not being used.... I know that strong willpower in finding this real meaning in life is what real will really means.... I've been trying to find this willpower to really deviate from my life and go against this current that i hope i am able to practice it once more.....

[Svencanz]

Aha, another of my favourite topics....

I have always remembered being sent down to this planet. I hated it. It was like a "debriefing session" with a few other souls: it turned out they had all passed, but I had failed and had to go back. There was a long story about what help I would get. I used to lie awake in bed as a kid (about 10) and think about this, turning my bed into a sweaty pit. Tormented with worry. There was a book they would lead me to, but I knew it was not the Bible. I was really worried about all this when younger. I have since recalled many past lives in process work, and the tension of all that has eased.
However, there has always remained a sense of victimisation at having to go back - and part of me wants to fail again, just to prove to "them up there" how futile it was to send me here.
It was only one or two years ago I got to a new take on this topic, brought to me by a skilled psychic in casual conversation.
"This is the Age of Aquarius," she said.
"Do you want to be the Sage or not?"
"We can all be the Sage."
It was not until after those statements that I realised I had created a double bind for myself by externalising "the people that sent me back".
So I am now working of reclaiming that aspect: the person who told me that I had to go back to earth was I.
Writing this now feels much less bizarre than it did a year ago - I am slowly getting there....:)

[Svencanz]

Sorry,

What did my previous post have to do with free will, you might ask?
Well, we have free will to be as stupid as we like.... (as proven by myself.)

[Spectrum]

Dear Kaybug,
You don't have to give up on your Christian Beliefs. You can go beyond the "religion" and embrace Christian mysticism. No belief is exact in its appraisal of God, no religion. Oprah follows a man by the name of Dr. David Hawkins who is considered a modern Christian Saint. You will enjoy his literature and go beyond what you already have. His stuff is for the discerning. I hope you will also look into A Course in Miracles which is a highly spiritual Christian text and find a study group in your area. Please don't give up. My first minister of religion had a huge faith crisis and ended up getting depressed and ejected by the church, they treated him like rubbish but he just needed to know more about God, like yourself. I think it is cruel the beliefs we get indoctrinated with, I used to see the elderly give up on God at deaths door because of what religion did to them. Look into David Hawkins, it is high consciousness and will open many doors. Please do not get upset or give up now, you are welcoming in the new. I would start with "Power vs. Force" and listen to his boxed set of "Highest Level of Enlightenement". Also look into Eckhart Tolle, one of the greatest minds this century, he has some CD's called the "Power of Now". As well as this I would recommend Baird T Spalding, "Life and Teaching of the Master's of the Far East" which will open you to the amazing travels of this man who hung out with eastern mystics who demonstrated the embodiment of Jesus to him and enabled him to grow in faith. You will be OK Kaybug you are just going through a crisis and you wanted to do the right thing with your beliefs. The stuff I have offered is not rubbish but will take you deeper and strengthen you more. It happened to me too and there are numerous ways out of your dilemma, it is just because our minds become rigid by what we were told.

God bless, you will have lots of fun with this stuff

[Das]

Kai, nice to meet you *S*

Do not worry about having no control. We are consigned to our fates yes, and all higher functions of a persons life are already mapped out for them, ready to invoke, and clear the karma set by the saturn principle.

However, by nature we are also free to do as we wish, which may seem a little confusing but all opposites are in fact the same thing. By freeing our minds of the concept of "controlling" the direction of our lives and leaving it in the hands of the movements of the spheres, ironically we free ourselves, from control, and from fear, i did this a few years ago and the shift in perception is subtle but noticeable, things just "happen" your way and come to you at the right "time".

Of course there are pockets of reality that are indeed free and unaffected by the planets, though they are always the instances that are free of karmic influence.

Just my two pence worth *S*

[Inside Out Orange]

I read a very good quote recently that seems apt for this thread ...

Life is like a game of cards. The cards that you are dealt are determined, how you choose to play them is free will.