Lilith [Archive] - Astrologers' Community

Kite

01-25-2006, 10:20 PM

Lilith seems to be coming up a lot lately. For me, she is especially meaningful as she sits within 3 degrees of my Aquarian Ascendent and within 3 degrees of my Chiron (so at the midpoint between Chiron and my Ascendant). With Lilith at 11 degrees Aquarius, I look to Sabian symbol at 12 Aquarius to try to give some insight into this position:

312__(12°)
LIFE'S BROAD STAIRWAY: EACH LANDING, A NEW GRADE OF LIFE Points of pause and tradition, where the soul can evaluate its progress. Graded effort. Necessity for divorcing the past.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective forward point of view and a genuine capitalization on all prior accomplishment, and when negative, frantic efforts to keep ahead of others.

When I read this I got a vision of Lot's wife ignoring his advice to not turn around and view the destruction of the city - she stopped, turned around and turned into a pile of salt as a result. So why this vision? I see our bodies filled with fluid - salt water like the sea. If we were to lose the water element, nothing would be left but salt. Perhaps this tells me that Lilith is related to some kind of emotional dehyration process as brought on by the paternal Gods prior to the Age of Pisces. Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - each causing a drying of our collective ambiotic fluid in the process.

A dried up Lilith could explain the characterization of her as the unwilling submissive to Adam, and the killer of children. Quite an archetype to deal with - especially in a key position in my chart. Dealing with the "Shadow" though has been a lifetime endeavor of mine. I learned at an early age that the path to higher consciousness led through a hall of mirrors known as the "Shadow". The interesting thing about this path is that at every milestone where another unclaimed part of myself is brought back to ownership and transmutation, I find myself to be a little more compassionate and a little less "salty".

I won't get into the specifics of what I've had to cope with in terms of Lilith although I will say that I had to deal with my sexual identity scrutinized both internally and externally beginning at the tender age of 13 (Saturn square Lilith). With Lilith on the Ascendent you could say that the most private part of my developing psyche was out there in public view. This of course opened the Chiron wound (or put salt on it let's say) and put me on a track to define myself on my own terms with the absolute requirement of total honesty. This sent me on the Hero's Journey to slay my internal dragons and rescue my dilapidated princess. Each step brings me newfound fluid and hope for wholeness.

Comments about Lilith?

Anonymous

01-26-2006, 04:04 AM

Kite,
Thank you for opening this thread. My ascendant is at 12 Aquarius. And I am also focusing on Chiron and Lilith these days.Lilith and what she represents is the dagger stuck in my heart that continues to turn at the hand of a world that represses what is truly feminine, and at the ways my subconcious continues to buy into these programs when I'm on the snooze.

"Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - each causing a drying of our collective ambiotic fluid in the process."

YES, I couldn't agree more.

To me, she is a fragment of the denied Goddess principle. She is the raped and broken feminine, and represents the loss of our collective creativity, and creation. She owns the deep dark between the legs, and is the ruler of the **** . Kind of an uncomfortable subject, eh? She is the old and powerful instinctual intelligence whose loss we are suffering as we flail through our lives disconnected, struggling for balance, and devoid of something big we can't quite wrap our noodle around : acceptance. Like our earthly waters, Lilith is our feminine who has been polluted with toxins meant to bleach the life out of her.,. simply because our collective macho mind does not have the power to control that life. She is the feminine who needs reclaiming and purifying, but this is no job for those unwilling to get their hands dirty. I commend your courage.

I am not an astrological "authority" on Lilith, but I know her, I also know what happens when I show her face publicly and it is entirely unappreciated. In my opinion, she is why so many of us are so damned scared to be our WHOLE selves around each other, because we're all operating on this collective paradigm that there is something within us that is just so bad that we can't possibly own it, let alone show it to each other. Systematically through hystery, I mean history, we have fragmented and shamed away the parts of ourselves that would nourish us and keep us safe, and this what is how I interpret Lilith as the "baby killer". This is my personal truth on who she is, but my perception of her is also rooted in her placement in my chart. She lives in my creative fifth house in Cancer, and is working in a cooperative conjunction with my (White) moon, Jupiter, and Apogee Lilith.

I got violently strangled by my dad at age 15 for refusing to go to Catholic church until they would allow a woman to become priestess, and all women to be honored as righteous spiritual entities. This left a clear sense in my soul that it is fatally dangerous to speak my truth , and I have a rather gnarly father image I am now ceaselessly reworking, but I don't regret a word of what I said, I see my experience as an example of the hell we have to go through to get the Goddess back, and the power we can experience in defending her. My dad has since rescinded his violently blind adherence to Catholic dogma and now writes letters to the pope asking him to allow women equal representation in the parish and also asks him to honor love between same-sex couples, because "love is love," He's changed. We've done years of (terrible) healing work and I am so proud that I cry when I think about it.

This is my Lilith work, my Chiron work, and my Saturn Return in Leo work all combined: the Goddess is not the ANTI-God, but just a complementary facet of a reality system that was meant to be so mind-blowingly beautiful and harmoniously interesting. The Garden is a sexually functional place, but creation will continue to be out of whack until we dig through the murk we've thrown on the feminine to realize she's just what we were searching for. My personal feminine is no where near '"cleaned" but for now, I'm wearing her, dirty reeking blood stains and all so that someday my soul can dance it was made to.

A sister in sludging,
Sita

Anonymous

01-26-2006, 04:02 PM

shoot. that was my post but i wasn't signed in. i hate that i spelled things wrong but can't get back in to edit.

Kite

01-26-2006, 05:09 PM

Thanks for your post Sita. That you consider me a sibling in sludging is flattering. How do you feel about a brother in sludging? We all have our gender sides to deal with to be whole.

Anonymous

01-26-2006, 08:39 PM

Kite,
I'm so embarrassed, and clearly confused. Somewhere long before this post I got the idea that you were female. I'm sorry and I hope I didn't offfend you.
Sita

Kite

01-26-2006, 09:17 PM

Not at all Sita.

Anonymous

01-26-2006, 10:19 PM

I am so blown away, so impressed by the gut level honesty and deep wise insights in both Kite's and Sita's posts. Wow you 2........Praise The Goddess for She has returned!

I haven't studied in-depth about Lilith but have always thought of Her as representing, as Kite so accurately said it, "Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - ". I think She does represent the beginning of the end of the Goddess Energies over the past 5 thousand years or so. The primary and deepest wound of the Patriarchal take over after the long Matriarchal period. That old polarity pendulum swinging wildly from one extreme to the other!

But here we all are now, standing with our individual and ancient collective wounds from far and wide, at the beginning of the Age of Aquarius where we are to finally move beyond this polarity game. We've done the Matriarchal learning period, we're at the finish-line right now of this Patriarchal learning period, getting ready to enter a period where these 2 are brought back together again and transmuted into a magical 3rd energy or state of being. The proof of this is Kite's and Sita's posts! :wink:

Out of curiosity, when was Lilith (astrologically) brought back from the nether worlds and returned to humanities consciousness? I have no idea, but this would show us when the main Goddess re-integrations and healings started in us collectively. She, in all Her aspects, has returned through us......and there's a hell of a mess to fix! But we are doing exactly that because it's time.

I intuit that this transit of Pluto across the GC will be dealing with 'The Goddess' issues in really big and intense ways also.

I have Lilith at 14 Pisces 36' - in my 1st house too, so we 3 must carry this archetypal energy right up front and personal!

Kite and I were talking in PM's about healing our Inner Female and Inner Male aspects recently and I'm SO glad Kite, that you started a thread about the Female aspect of this issue. It's so needed and timely. What do any of you think would represent the primary archetypal Male/God energy astrologically? The Sun? Chiron? Maybe because I've got these 2 conjunct natally that that's why I even need to ask this! I'd really like to have a second thread going to match this one that's for the really angry, fragmented, wounded and Homesick aspect of our Inner Male part too. He and I have been 'encountering' and 'working' with each other intensely since my early childhood. My Higher Self obviously knew that this one was going to take nearly a whole life time to integrate!

Thanks to both of you for such powerful, raw, and wise posts about this issue. They helped me very much. I honestly don't think that any of us totally understands how very much we're doing by loving and embracing these ancient fragmented and wounded aspects of ourselves now!

Lapis

01-26-2006, 10:23 PM

OK, I know I was logged in, so what's up? Anyway that above post was me.

Kite

01-26-2006, 10:45 PM

Lapis,

Thanks for your post. When I look at your chart I see Lilith at 19Cancer22. There are 3 Lilith positions I believe. I think your Pisces Lilith is the Asteroid position, the Cancer Lilith would be the point that is calculated in the chart. The other Lilith position has to do with the Apogee of the moon I believe.

When we look at your Cancer position though, it squares your Libra stellium and might account for the shadow male you speak of since Mars is in there conjunct Saturn, Neptune and your Moon. Lilith the Bad Dark Moon as this point is known, sits in your 5th house also conjuncting Uranus which also squares the stellium. Both Lilith and Uranus trine your Venus in 9 which I would think allows these shadow energies to play out in your relationships in ways you can handle.

Kite

Lapis

01-27-2006, 12:10 AM

Anonymous

01-27-2006, 01:25 AM

Lilith is the black moon

In Europe she was first discovered in 1720.She cannot reflect the light of the Sun,like our Moon and can only be observed as she casts her shadow on the Sun if she passes it.

In the bible and the talmud there is some information about her.In the language of symbols Adam is our Earth and Eve is our Moon.One says that Adam first had another woman,Lilith,who was rather wild and primitive and had a fur like an animal.(Every human embryo has,for a short time,in his development in the womb a fur,that falls out later,analogous to the times where Lilith had a bigger influence on mankind and granted him a fur).
The talmud tells that Lilith had a fight with Adam and left him.Three angels catched her and tried to persuade her to come back,but she did not.
So a new woman was created: Eve=Luna=Moon.Lilith was jealous of her and tried to seduce her descendants(that means we,all humans) to sexual games and murder.Her name means night,and is described as a vampire.

(information out of a book)

Lilith is someone who is a seducer,and I immediately think of lolita and lulu,names for girls in smoky nightclubs,with heavy makeup and sexy lingerie who are whispering in your ear,creating an illusion that can come true.You smell her perfume and she sits on your lap,dragging you into a world that doesn't exist....

I think Lilith is the seducer we should not be listening to....
It is something like cocaine,you feel great,but only for a short period of time,seducing you to go the easy way,a dead end street,leading you away from your real destiny we are all,deep in our hearts,aware of...

Kite

01-27-2006, 01:52 AM

Lapis - be it far from me to suggest your Lilith should submit to my Lilith :twisted: :)

I see that my Asteroid Lilith is at 24 Taurus conjunct my south node and part of misfortune (what happens to fortune when you get those two in the mix).

Here's some link thats hopefully shines some reflected light on this http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/lilith-dark-moon.html
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
http://nmazca.com/coeli/astroref.htm#lilith

It's not surprising to me that we have a hard time deciding on the true Lilith. Perhaps that's part of the shadow work we all need to do. Reminds me of the movie Body Heat...just when you think you've figured it out :oops:

Kite

01-27-2006, 02:15 AM

Here's some more info that might help:

Introduction to Lilith and the Centaurs
- Written by Philip Graves - 22 Jan 2004

What is Lilith?

Lilith is the name given to three altogether distinct phenomena, an asteroid, the Moon's apogee (sometimes known as Black Moon), and a hypothetical second Moon to the Earth (sometimes known as Dark Moon).

Asteroid Lilith

The asteroid Lilith (1181) has a geocentric period of about four years. Its glyph represents the upturned palm of a hand. It signifies conflict resolution (sometimes the incapability to attain this); divided loyalties; favoritism; issues of personal and sexual power, domination (particularly in male nativities) and violence; doubts over the integrity or loyalty of partners; female sexual assertiveness, fantasies, independence and lust; a lack of sexual commitment; love triangles; manipulative relationship behaviour; a non-submissive disposition, particularly with regard to gender roles for women; negotiation and compromise ability; repressed anger (sometimes leading to vindictive behaviour); personal independence; resentment arising from rejection; rivalry for affection, commitment or fidelity; sexual expectations or criticism; subterfuge in relationships; an uncompromising stance over beliefs; and the use of sex as a weapon of vengeance or domination.

Afflicted, Lilith can signify the inability to reach consensus before issues of power can be resolved; perceptions of femininity as being 'bitchy' or evil (particularly in male subjects); or even sexual abuse.

Transits to Lilith bring issues of comparison, competition, preference or rejection to the fore, often with some activity keeping partners relatively apart temporarily, leading to feelings of neglect and jealousy. They can also provoke confrontations with gender role stereotypes. When activated by transits, eclipses or progressions, Lilith placed strongly natally can manifest as a period of sexual disinterest or involvement in love affairs.

In synastry, aspects to Lilith indicate the necessity for those involved to negotiate compromises; and potential sexual difficulties arising from anger, fear, suspicion or rejection.

Apogee (Black Moon) Lilith

In the Moon's orbit of the Earth it periodically reaches its closest distance (perigee) and then its furthest distance (apogee). The longitude of its apogee is known as Lilith or Black Moon. Lilith in this sense is a much more major astrological consideration than either the small asteroid or the altogether questionable 'dark Moon'. The true position of apogee Lilith varies greatly from the often calculated mean position, and includes periods of retrogradation. The geocentric period of apogee Lilith is about nine years; while its glyph is a black Moon sitting over a cross.

Apogee Lilith is believed to be a point of instinctive and emotional intelligence, whereby individuals can gain contact with and feel their inner heartfelt truths and soul longings and passions. Since at Lilith the Moon is more distant from the Earth than usual, the Sun gains relative prominence, and Lilith is also associated with the unveiling of illusions, the illumination of self-defeating behaviour patterns, the exorcism of self-centred desires, and the coming into closer contact with Earth wisdom. A strongly placed Lilith favours art, creativity, detachment from social norms, emotional sensitivity and vulnerability, an uncompromising will, and unconventional relationships. Natal apogee Lilith retrograde is thought to offer past life indications judged by its sign and house placement.

Only conjunctions and oppositions to apogee Lilith within a three degree orb are considered in interpretation. Such aspects to Sun, Mercury or Venus in females are thought to heighten the expression of their sexuality in their public image; those to the Moon can indicate difficulties connected with pregnancy and childbirth; and those to Mars favour the expression of independence, sometimes attracting opposition from men.

In female nativities, a strongly placed Lilith shows consciousness of one's instincts, and confident governance of one's sexuality and childbirth needs; while more negative manifestations of the placement of Lilith can be social isolation stemming from unorthodox manners of functioning, and unsuitable sexual partners. In male nativities, a strongly placed Lilith attracts the individual to equal, fair relationships with strong females, who in turn are attracted to such types as him.

Transits from apogee Lilith bring pain and uncomfortable, uncontrolled emotions in matters connected with the transited planet, and sometimes manifest as vengefulness.

In synastric contacts, apogee Lilith brings a sense of soul connection characterised by a mergeance of personal and impersonal attributes, but with an inclination towards intensity, the uncovering of deep-seated desires, and some danger of obsessiveness and pain.

Hypothetical Moon (Dark Moon) Lilith

In 1618 there was a reported sighting of an apparent second Moon orbiting Earth. Sporadically ever since, speculative attention has been focused on this and other reports of such sightings, and the name Lilith has been given to them collectively, although the corporeal existence of such a Moon has never been proven and it stands to reason that almost certainly there is none and that the reported sightings had other explanations. Nonetheless, in 1918 the eminent astrologer Sepharial took the idea seriously enough to coin the name Dark Moon and publish a speculative ephemeris of its position, based on observations of perturbations to the lunar orbit. This idea was built on later by the astrologer Delphine Jay. Astronomically, Dark Moon Lilith is supposed to have a geocentric period of 119 days and to orbit at three times the distance of the Moon, while its diameter is said to be about one quarter that of the Moon.

Supposed influences of Dark Moon Lilith include objectivity, and a creative instinct that seeks impersonal expression through aesthetic, creative, mental or spiritual outlets. The glyph for Dark Moon Lilith is a zero bisected by a diagonal line from bottom left to top right that extends beyond its limits.

Kite

01-27-2006, 03:01 AM

And more than you ever wanted to know about the three Liliths and how to find their positions http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/message/12

I guess we better move on to a discussion of the asteroid Pandora now.

Kite

Lapis

01-27-2006, 03:50 AM

Kite,

Well no wonder there's so much confusion about Miss Thang! Geeesh, next time post the confusing 3 aspects stuff first OK? Me and my 3 faces of Lilith are outta here! :twisted: :) to do some reading.

Kite

01-27-2006, 01:59 PM

Sorry Lapis - I made the mistake of assuming all of us astrologers were working with the same one of the three :oops: :oops:

Kite

01-27-2006, 04:43 PM

Hello Lillith seekers!

I was on another forum

(slut that I am :lol:)

and look at this -- the *hot*
topic is Lillith....

http://erosastrology.proboards26.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1130181003&page=2

(....I trust this is proper cosmic protocol 8))

and here's another link to a
beautiful Lillith
painted by a
guy....just scroll down the thread to a Jan 5th posting....with photo....

http://erosastrology.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1135451507&page=2

EVOKING images is powerful as we

open our hearts to consciousness

beyond our ken :?

Fun s y n c h r o n i c i t y happening

here.

I agree so much with Lapis,

and powerful Sita and right-on Kite, of course,

about the power of

re-emerging Lillith

while old Pluto conjuncts GC...

it's beyond ego and
time/space

and all in the heart.

C1

Kite

01-27-2006, 08:18 PM

Thanks C1. I'm starting to see the synchronicy with the Lilith thread. I decided to take a peak at my wife's chart for her Black Moon Lilith (BLM) and I was blown away to see her mean position (please pardon the pun) at 16 Scorpio or right on her Descendant, conjunct her Sun at 14 Scorpio. So I my lilith right on my Ascendant and she has hers on her descendant so of course when I run the composite chart BLM sits on our composite Midheaven - this at 28 Sag - within orbit of the Galactic Center.

With Pluto approaching, I can see why Lilith is entering my/our consciousness as we continue to integrate the shrew that was created when we moved into a patriarchal society and that perhaps the purpose of our relationship has always been to find wholeness through acknowledging and working with this Archetype. Even my wife's first name translates to Lily.

I look back at my first post and realize that perhaps the story of Sodom and Gemorrah is the story of the destruction of the matriarchal era with Lot's wife paying the price front and center for disobeying her husband and trying to turn back.

Strange Daze

Kite

01-29-2006, 07:17 PM

<<Hi Kite,>>

Wow!...and how about those degrees of 14* to 17* Scorpio (conjunct transiting Jupiter!)

SABIAN SYMBOLS:
SCORPIO__15__THE SPAN OF RETENTION

224__(14°)
WORKERS PUSH A TELEPHONE LINE ACROSS FORBIDDING RANGES The will to association regardless of time and space. Linkage of separate realms. Spiritual living" in spite of" nature.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective penetration of human competence into each pertinent complex of everyday living, and when negative, unnecessary concern over the affairs of others.

225__(15°)
LAUGHING CHILDREN PLAY UPON FIVE MOUNDS OF WHITE SAND The world of the five senses as the playground of God and Soul. Honesty in self-expression. Bondage to sense-patterns.
___*When positive, the degree is a gift for a continual discovery of new and effective facets of selfhood, and when negative, wholly purposeless ineptitude.

SCORPIO__16__THE SPAN OF APPRECIATION

226__(16°)
A GIRL WITH ARISTOCRATIC FEATURES SMILES ENTRANCINGLY Fervent outreaching of self in moments of the purest beauty. Leaping to meet the potentialities of life. Blossoming forth.
___*When positive, the degree is man's ingratiating gift for employing the simple things of life for surmounting any momentary obstacles to his self-fulfillment, and when negative, self-betrayal through a lack of all discrimination.

227__(17°)
WOMAN, FECUNDATED BY HER SPIRIT, IS "GREAT WITH CHILD" Fullness of self-reliance and individual destiny. Cooperation between spiritual and material agencies. Pure self-revelation.
___*When positive, the degree is an illimitable self-potentiality with effective spiritual or ideal as well as practical or everyday orientations, and when negative, a characteristically anarchistic self-sufficiency.

So...those points square transiting Neptune in Aquarius.

Today a gang of luminaries and planets and
centaurs and asteroids have
squeezed in the door with
transiting Neptune: transiting Chiron, Nessu, Eros, and
...sun, merc, moon...

While I don't understand how to interpret composite charts,
shared positions interest me, as you know,
and the ASC/DC and MID cj GC is *so* amazing!

Vis-a-vis Lillith, I would like to share a recent time
in my life: last even we saw the movie "9 Lives"
which was kind of salty if you ask me,
and this morning I discovered that my housemate
the midwife, who did not come along to the movies with us,
had assisted in the warm water birth
of a baby at 3 am this morning!

So...a delicate new birth
that mom and dad and newborn baby
made into a beautiful, natural, powerful, shared experience
(guided by the Cosmic helpers. :wink: )

The movie showed intense moments in people's lives, focusing
on women....and most of the vignettes were traumatic.

The moment in the life of the birth mom and dad and child &
midwife was
quite another thing altogether!

Thanks again for this thread...
i am looking forward to Lillith insights
in our lives.

C1

Kite

01-31-2006, 12:50 AM

Transiting Black Moon Lilith is currently at 0Virgo45. This is exactly conjunct my Pluto at my Descendent and square my MC. I've experienced intense Lilith-like exchanges in my life over the last week. Anyone else paying attention to Lilith's transits? Very strange that I've become so conscious of Lilith while this is occuring - well maybe not so strange when you think of it.

Kite

Lapis

01-31-2006, 02:21 AM

Lapis - be it far from me to suggest your Lilith should submit to my Lilith :twisted: :)

Kite,

I didn't even know that there were 3 Liliths until you started this thread! I was only aware of 2, and like I said, I hadn't researched about Lilith until you kindly left those great links and info here.

"Transiting Black Moon Lilith is currently at 0 Virgo 45. Anyone else paying attention to Lilith's transits?"

No but........ well now, THIS makes a lot of sense for both you and I doesn't it? My ASC at 0 Pisces 49' and of course 7th exactly the opposite blah blah blah. She's conjuncting my South Node also at 2 Virgo and opposing my N.N. If it weren't for us humans, how would these gods and goddesses manifest into this reality? :wink: I too have experienced intense Lilith-like exchanges and house calls even over this past week! I guess that's the whole point with transits. They act out through some of us more directly, more intensely, probably due to many different things - our natal placements being prime for specific transits and learnings obviously.

I'm cool with my recent Lilith encounters and I hope you can get there too if you haven't already. I've seen this happen so many times where near strangers are suddenly thrown together because of many things beyond my wee conscious understanding, that need to quickly be activated, experienced all the way down deep, and then quickly released because something else is coming and the decks needed to be washed clean first! I've seen us all get manouvered around like little 3 year olds like this, just so someone can play a roll (carry a specific archetypal energy at the time) to trigger the other person AND VISE VERSA! Seen it many times in many ways and it amazes me each time it happens.

So having said all that........how fast does this Gal move anyway? :wink:

Kite

01-31-2006, 02:48 AM

So having said all that........how fast does this Gal move anyway?

Lapis - she's moving at about 10 degrees per month so not too long..this particular transit.

Funny thing, from a synchronicity standpont, I noticed transiting Jupiter conjuncting my wife's natal Lilith at the same time. Combining this with transiting Mars opposing my natal Venus and Sun conjunct Chiron, I would have to agree that this particular stew has come along for a reason.

I'm working through my learnings here as are the people involved so hopefully this will turn out to be a time of integration and healing.

Kite

Kite

01-31-2006, 03:45 PM

I found this brief article that casts Lilith as the Supernal Midwife. This hits very close to home in that my wife has Lilith conjunct her Sun/Descendent/Saturn with Pluto in Leo in the 4th/5th house (depends on system) in mutual reception to the Sun. Due to sterility, we adopted our beautiful daughter - this after a failed adoption where the child died yet we weren't told until two months later so the birthmother could collect her support payments.

Supernal Midwife

"Thou art he that cut me loose from my mother's womb" [Ps 71:6]
defines God's midwife aspect, cutting the umbilical cord of newborns.
This female emanation is called Nukvah the supernal wetnurse; and like
Gula, Artemis, and other midwife goddesses, it is Her decision whether
or not the mother and/or child survive, so has both a bright face and
dark face. In Kabbalah, the supernal midwife can be either Eve or
Lilith. Lilith works in the Chamber of Exchanges, swapping good souls
for evil, evil souls for good. The power of the supernal midwife to do
harm is not in itself evil, for good invariably comes of Lilith's
mischief.

The supernal midwife is viewed as the cause of wars for thrones,
usurpations, and battles within a royal family to decide heirs.
Hagar's son born before Sarah's; and Leah's children before Rachel's
were exchanges made by the supernal midwife. The order of Jacob and
Esau were switched in Rebekah's womb, so that the violent Esau would
emerge first, and gentle Jacob's descendants would have been subject
forever to the descendants of Esau, except that Esau sold his
birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red pottage (symbolic of blood). The
supernal midwife oversees all acts of exchange, as when Laban
exchanged Leah for Rachel as Isaac's bride, or when Moses turned his
staff into a serpent.

She can also remove wealth from one house to another, one kingdom to
another. When Israel became subject to Assyria, it was due to Israel's
own sin, and God's anger which came as a midwife. It was She that
directed infant Moses into the house of Pharaoh's daughter, removing
him from slavery. It was she that induced Joseph's brothers to sell
him into slavery. Solomon lists four things the earth cannot bear: a
slave when he becomes king, a fool when he is filled with food, an
unloved woman when she gets a husband, and a handmaid when she
succeeds her mistress [Pr 30:21-23]. These appear rather trivial, or
at least devoid of moral meaning, unless one understands them in the
context of the supernal midwife's tinkering with the fate of humanity.

The midwife also represents periods of exile, the "exchange" being
such as when Israelite tribes lived among the Egyptians or Persians or
Babylonians, or when Hebrew men preferred Canaanite and Babylonian
wives, themselves being aspects of the midwife seeking to exchange
Yahweh's worship in favor of the Mother Goddess. The midwife's
Lilith's activities explains how good comes from evil, evil from good,
so that David is descended from Lot's incest with his daughters, and
Jesus is descended from Jezebel and Ahab. All exchanges, no matter how
damaging, are in the end beneficial.

Anonymous

02-01-2006, 04:40 PM

:? Hi Kite and all others here,

Goca posted this link on January 25th in the
"Natal and Predictive" topic in the
"Lilith and Midheaven" thread --

Abouth Lilith go to this link:
http://nmazca.com/coeli/lilith.htm

This web page is put together by
a blogger / photographer / astrologer...
it's very creative and there's even humor....
which is great while
there is so much synchronicity and
Earth changes going on right now...

BTW, this link also
appeared on the other forum's Lilith discussion

C1
...*Balance* is the universal harmony...

Arian Maverick

02-17-2006, 06:30 PM

I have recently been captivated by Lilith's seductive charms and would love to see this discussion continue...in my opinion, there is not nearly enough information out there about her role in one's natal chart :?

As soon as I selected Lilith from the additional objects list on Astrodienst and viewed all aspects to her, my chart seemed to explode in front of my eyes. Her placement in my eighth house of Libra feels particularly significant to me, perhaps because these two influences match my own personal image of her--an entrantress who possessed all of the darkness associated with the eigth house coupled with that infamous Libran charm. In addition, she forms a Grand Trine with Jupiter and my Ascendent, and if I am not mistaken, she is the focal point of a Kite configuration! I must check this further...here is my chart including Lilith if anyone is interested:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1972/mylilithchart4qn.png (http://imageshack.us)

Aquarian Maverick

P.S. What are the general orb allowances for a Grand Cross? Because I'm not sure if there's one formed between Uranus, Lilith, Moon and Chiron...if so, I suppose it's a very loose configuration.

Frisiangal

02-26-2006, 11:58 AM

Hi Everybody,
I saw this thread when browsing and hope this first attempt to reply gets through.

I'm no authority on any Lilith but have been studying the Mean Black Moon Lilith's position in a chart and through transits for almost 7 years.
I don't know whether asteroid Lilith, as a physical body, would compare to the sexy,slutty, seductive woman described in pre- Hebrew and Sumerian myth, or whether True Black Moon Lilith is seen as such, but this in no way agrees with what has been observed regarding the position of Mean BML. It is point , not a body, between Earth and the moon's apogee which, translated, can be FELT inwardly as a point of emptiness, a void, a feeling of non-existence, (self) denial etc. of an active natural trait that is furthest from, or denied expression in daily life because it doesn't conform to 'how things are and should be'. In positive aspects it produces wonderful insights because it seems to be representative of activating the 6th sense, the gut instinct etc. that 'feels right' and a person projects, through its aspect to a planet, in spite of what others think,do, say and feel about them. But in harsh aspects, it's the part that is denied, that we don't like or care to admit to because it refers to something that is considered 'bad'or 'wrong' through the eyes of the company we keep and adhere to. It can then become the 'false image', the 'demon' of bad thoughts and feelings that plague us but that bear no resemblance to the truth.
MEAN BML is the nagging and gnawing you feel inside about something that refuses to go away until you deal with it. Most times it refers to the innocence of 'the inner child', that period prior to puberty, that you prefer NOT to be reminded of and include as part of your life.
Its association with manifested illness is becoming too general to be discarded and ignored, but what can you expect when people allow things to rot their inside? !!!!

If anyone would care to share their views on what they consider their MEAN BML means to them, I'd be very grateful as it will help my research.
Many thanks.

F.

02-26-2006, 11:28 PM

:| Frisiangal,
Thank you for this invitation! For me, MEAN BML
showed herself to be much as you
described, a powerful force in a very personal way.

Her glyph of a half-moon above the cross of spirit may have
the meaning of a gesture-- is it "come forward" :?:
---or maybe is it "proceed with courage" :!:
perhaps?

Then, before I learned more about this powerful non-planet-point-
in-space, I learned to differentiate her from two other, distinct
Lilith apparitions, osc. Lilith (h13 on Astrodienst, known as "True BLM")
and
the asteroid Lilith (1181).
Here's a link to that discussion on another astrology forum:
http://erosastrology.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1130181003&page=2

BLM was shown to me on my chart more than
ten years ago, but I did not get to know her better then
and remained ignorant of her importance until now.

Natally, MEAN BLM is at 2 Aries 12, 3rd house;
she sextiles natal Jupiter at 1 Aqua 59, 2nd house
and another powerhouse in my chart, Uranus,
is within a few degrees orb of square.

Uranus is close to Asbolus at 1 Cancer 7 in the 7th house
(Uranus is midpoint of a powerful Sun / Venus square Moon / Pluto
in my 5th--8th houses....Uranus is 28 Gemini 7 and is in my 7th house.....
opposite my natal Vesta Rx conjuncting Pluto now and the GC......
much energy is being released through Uranus).

Here's my chart one week ago:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?nhor=1&nho2=1&btyp=24&mth=ast&hsy=1&zod=&add=18&add=19&add=20&add=22&add=12&add=13&add=14&add=15&add=23&node=-Yn&fix=1&sday=17&smon=2&syr=2006&rs=1&orbp=&cid=bjgfilegLOPq6-u1136915679&lang=e&gm=a1&ast=h13%2C1221%2C1181%2C8405%2C90377

I was invited to pay $75 to go to my friend's acupuncture school
where she is a 3rd year student and have an initial interview and
needling. I said "yes" because I had been dealing with healh shocks:

a friend was diagnosed with Lyme and
her 21 year old niece was also diagnosed with Lyme and
I know others who are suffering with Lyme....
my research into this syndrome/illness recently revealed
the possibility that there was a release of
the spirochete involved in Lyme from a secret army research lab...
my knee suddenly was not working....this is one of the possible indicators
of Lyme disease.....and like that.... :(

so last week I walked into the acupuncture school and my
friend the student said "The administrator asked me for permission
to videotape the session." My friend said that since she had a cold
and did not feel up to it, she'd told them "no" and they really, really
wanted her to do it....So I said to her, "Good -- you are in touch with your
body and your 'gut feelings,' so do as you wish!"

There was suddenly a knock on the door to the examining room
and the director leaned in and
asked my friend to come speak with him for a minute....when she
returned she said, "Here's an offer for you: they would like you to
consent to be interviewed by the director and that will give me a break
and I'll be off the hook -- but they would like you to be sitting in front of
all of us students....and if you agree, there will be no fee!" So, I agreed.

The questions proceeded, and I was talking about my health as a child,
recurring sinus infections, and then when he asked
about my life as a child at home I started to cry and talked about the
day my father died.

The director of the school was very kind and very
professional, he asked me a few questions more and then
I went to a small room and received acupuncture
to balance the 5 energies,
and then I returned to the classroom, feeling
wonderfully re-adjusted
and balanced, and the students smiled at me and
everyone thanked
me and I came home.

This past week, since that event, I experienced decreasing health
and a serious cold/infection, and was very weak and concerned
because I cannot work with my clients who are immune-suppressed
if I am communicable, and finally as I lay in bed Thursday for the whole
day, drinking only one glass of hot tea with lemon and honey my friend
brought in to me....I really wanted to let go of recurring sinus infections.

Early Friday I had a dream: a Korean woman came to me
in the house I was temporrily staying in with her and her partner
and a child (they were not seen....they were great spirits!)
and the woman said to me "I, too, know 5 element acupuncture,
and your heart is weak!"

I awoke and dragged myself back to the acupuncture
school for the second scheduled session.

My knee was cured I told my friend the student! Could it be acupuncture,
or the rhuta grav. homeopathic remedy I'd taken that week, or the
hours of rest? Or combination?

And, I said that the cold was very discouraging and
difficult for me to tolerate and work through.....it was
debilitating, depressing, disgusting, and I was missing out on life....and
so then she needled me, her work was supervised by the director of the school, and she
moxa-ed me and my sinuses cleared enough for me to get home
and back to bed for 24 hours.....

now I see the kite :idea:

transiting Lilith
at 2 Virgo 50 is 150 degrees from natal Jupiter and
natal Lilith....
transiting MEAN BLM is not far from the star Regulus
conjunct my natal saturn at 29 Leo in my 8th
house (with approaching Saturn return by 2007!!)

Back to MEAN BLM: I remember this time of year is always making me cry.....

and soon the transiting lunar node *and* the sun *and* transiting Eros
will conjunct my natal Lilith....

....just in time to give me courage and open my heart more for
remaining balanced with all that is happening!
C1

Lunar Pisces

02-27-2006, 12:24 AM

Sita: the male-only priesthood of the Catholic Church isn't a dogma. Dogmas are specifically teachings that Catholics must assent to to be in full communion with the Church, and pertain only to salvation and our relationship with Christ and his Church, not how the Church is structured. I am a (very liberal and female) Catholic theolgian and I was studying under other some prominent theologians (Catholic and Orthodox) when John Paul II made his statement on women in the priesthood. While it was assumed by many to be a dogmatic statement ont he pope's part, it was not and could not, for hte above reasons. Instead, it is simply "defintiive teaching" - a teaching that the Church believes is unchangeable because it conforms to Christ's example, but dissention from this teaching does not jeopardize one's membership in the Church or their salvation.

If your father violently attacked you over this, honestly, it probably was about something much deeper psychologically and far more troubling than his objection ot your religious dissention. Religion often makes for an easy facade and rationalization for deeper, darker problems that people try to hide. Hence why religion has been so badly abused throughout history.

As for Lilith:

I find Lilith very interesting. In my chart I have Pluto rising at 27 Virgo in the 1st, conj both asteriod Lilth (29 Virgo) and BM Lilith (1 Libra). Also in my 1st house in my Uranus singleton at 9 Libra.

I consider myself a very "Lilithian" woman. I look the part: I have a naturally fierce and independant appearence with intense Plutonian eyes and wild, impossible-to-tame dark, wavy hair that flows out like a mane when it's long. I can be imposing, intimidating and scare the holy **** out of men (and many women too). I manifest both the positive and negative Lilith traits: I'm very much in control of my sexuality, and very comfortable with it. Even though I have a very intense sexuality, I am not sexually active, something I have chosen so I can pursue other things in my life. I don't want children, yet men seem to want to get me pregnant (a very serious issue with past relationships).

Men are often easily alienated by me, and seem to think either I'm too bold and bitchy, or that I need to be "tamed" or "domesticed". I have no desire to be married or attached to a man, unless there is a deep, mutual respect of each other's individuality and independence. I'm not a conventional woman by any stretch, and I've defintely have a goddess complex going on on a deeper level - as I'm fond of saying, "I'm not girlfriend or wife material - I'm more goddess material." Seriously, on most days I sincerely wish I could just start iting people left and right (that would be Lilith's vengeful streak making an appearence).

I've also had several experiences in my life where I've been "exiled" or otherwise harshly reprimanded beyond reason or clearly without compassion or understanding, often because the "community" found me threatening. I frequently have to deal with people who try to cut me down because they resent my inherent power and intelligence. I have sometimes found myself socially isolated as the results of other's suspicion, mistrust or rejection of me. However, when I am not rejected, I often find "soul mates," people I can form deep, meaningful and edifying relationships. These tend ot be very powerful relationships that emphasize encouraging and supporting each other's independence, self-possesion and intellectual development.

02-27-2006, 01:17 AM

:o Sita,

I recall that posting of yours.
It's terrible what your father did to you.

Dominating other beings,
like what's done by some abusive Catholics and Christian right-wing
hypocrites and women-abusing Islamic fundamentalists....

these men (primarily) are sitting on both sides of the same coin.
Was it Nahwal al-Sadawi
the Egyptian doctor and writer and feminist who resisted and
was jailed who said:
"They have their money in the same Swiss bank accounts."

We are exploring true (non-fundamentalist) Spirit in our life!

Strong Sita, I'm appreciating all your posts, including today's
about the birth of 2 planets (thanking all who were involved)

and that one about the storm on Saturn just being our
Saturn returns....:lol:

(I had posted that photo as "guest" -- I just could not
get it together that day!)

Thanks, Sita!

Aquarian Mav,

I have recently been captivated by Lilith's seductive charms and would love to see this discussion continue...in my opinion, there is not nearly enough information out there about her role in one's natal chart

As soon as I selected Lilith from the additional objects list on Astrodienst and viewed all aspects to her, my chart seemed to explode in front of my eyes. Her placement in my eighth house of Libra feels particularly significant to me, perhaps because these two influences match my own personal image of her--an entrantress who possessed all of the darkness associated with the eigth house coupled with that infamous Libran charm.

Yes, I see that!
Uranus, Neptune, ASC, Moon, Jupiter Chiron...and a grand cross!

What does Lilith feel like for you anyway?

Can you tell yet?

C1

Arian Maverick

02-27-2006, 03:17 AM

Yes, I see that!
Uranus, Neptune, ASC, Moon, Jupiter Chiron...and a grand cross!

What does Lilith feel like for you anyway?

Can you tell yet?

It is difficult for me to know with any measure of certainty how I have been affected by Lilith's energies, as I have not yet approached my seventeenth birthday and thus do not truly consider myself among the ranks of fully mature, adult women. However, I am well past the awkward stages of puberty and keenly aware of my body and my sexuality, and lately I believe that I have been experiencing Lilith in a very personal way.

For many years now, I have been very self-conscious and uncomfortable with my thin yet undeniably womanly figure. Throughout middle school, I attempted to hide myself inside baggy clothes, and even after I discovered the delights of fashion and started to wear more current and form-fitting styles, I simply could not shake off that feeling of shame and embarrassment whenever I viewed my reflection in my bedroom mirror. I desperately wished my curves would disappear and fiercely envied those whose bodies most closely matched society's projected image of the "ideal" body type.

Ah, but something changed! I am not exactly sure how or when the transformation took place, but I believe I began to have more respect for my body as I discovered what it was capable of doing--to carry and give birth to life. It is interesting that this board has been reactivated so to speak at this time, because for the last couple of nights I have fallen asleep whilst contemplating the innate power I believe all women possess as the mothers of all humanity...we are indomitable beings, naturally in tune with nature's rhythms and cycles, and capable of simultaneously fulfilling many roles--wife, mother, daughter, healer, warrior, protector, etc. Our love knows no limits, yet neither does our wrath; although many of us may try may to suppress our inner Lilith, she will forever be intertwined with our very being. The moon and Lilith--two sides of the same coin, seemingly a universe apart, yet in essence the same. What a wonderful gift!

Aquarian Maverick

Kite

02-27-2006, 02:59 PM

Last night I was looking at my recently deceased Mother's chart and noticed her Lilith is at 6 degrees Cancer. I have a t-square formed by Mars conjunct Moon in Aries in 2 squaring Merc in Cap in 11 and opposing Jupiter in late Vir in 8. My Mother's Lilith completes the t-square into a Grand Cross with her Lilith sitting in my 5th house of self-expression.

I can tell you there is nothing like a mothering you get from Lilith in Cancer. I always remembered her being hysterical when I was young. I was told that I didn't start talking until 3 and also around that time I disappeared - they called the police and eventually found me cowering in the cabinet under the kitchen sink. I've just begun to realize that Neptune on my second house might have something to do with hiding out with the Mars/Moon conjunction intercepted in there. This evenutally developed into a fight or flight pattern but there are many ways to "hide out".

Other interesting aspects between the two of us include my Lilith conjuncting her Saturn, her Saturn conjuncting my Ascendant and my Saturn conjuncting her Moon and Mercury. You might say we had quite a confrontation of mirroring each other's characteristics and projection that could kill a horse.

I recently had a dream saying goodbye to her as she died suddenly this past summer. I held her very close and told her that if only we learned to forgive each other no matter what, then it was worth living this life. Then she peacefully left.

Kite

Arian Maverick

02-27-2006, 03:08 PM

Kite- I'm so sorry about your loss :cry:

Aquarian Maverick

Light

02-27-2006, 08:49 PM

Kite, you have my condolences. Sorry.

Quick technical interruption? Which lilith am I looking for? What does the squiggle look like? (I have real trouble with the glyphs - they all seem to change and look the same - Eg I cannot tell Jup and Sat apart - never mind the less well known ones! (Don't worry too much about that - I mirror write when under stress :oops: , it's part of that! )) :oops:

squigglless

hel

02-27-2006, 08:55 PM

Claro, Aqua Mav...well said.
Thanks for helping bring in the consciousness...

Kite,
Your sharing is deep and high and grounded.
Often there are no words for my gratitude to you.
Thank you, Kite, from my heart to yours....
I'm realizing
all *time* is contained in an expanding structure,
that's opening, turning into a new structure....consciously.
I'm amazed by your spirit and Self-
communication (if I may be so bold....your communication with
higher Self....) through the forum.

I am so amazed by the wisdom of you indigos...

C1

Kite

02-27-2006, 10:31 PM

AM and Hel141 - thanks for your condolences.

C1 - thanks for your kind words also. Geez I don't feel very high or grounded sometimes. I think I pretty much chose a life path that would force me to find a spiritual path or else. Seemed pretty do or die from my perspective so it's nice that I seem to be able to express myself in this area. I'm grateful for that and so far am enjoying my Chiron return 8) .

Kite

02-28-2006, 04:52 AM

Kite,
Yeah,
I've felt like that, too, most
of my life....

but, hey, happy new moon!
(BTW, thanks, Lapis, once again, for showing up
with the goods....today it was your post about
this refreshing new moon...I really needed that!)

Waves of communicators
*are* harmonizing here, and that's good...
whether or not any one of us ever felt
particularly
"harmonic" or "grounded" in our
"previous" lives -- (i.e. prior to this moment!)

Hmm...I wish to take back the indigo label, too....I'm
in agreement with Sita (on another thread):

FReeeeeeeeeee :lol:

So, who will be the next planet/asteroid/
point in space to take center stage and "act" through
the astrologers here within
our forum during this Pluto/GC moment
I wonder :|

C1
8)

Missa

02-28-2006, 07:04 AM

I have Lilith in Taurus conjunct my Midheaven and North node but I'm not sure what it means. :? It looks like I also have Pholus conjunct my North node (I guess it depends of the orb you use), but I haven't been able to find any interpretation for this. Help? I'm curious because North node is supposed to be the course we have to take in this life, our karma, etc. How would Lilith (and Pholus?) affect on it?

Frisiangal

02-28-2006, 10:11 AM

:D Whoops...forgot one last thing for Hel. The glyph for Black Moon Lilith.

It depends upon which astro. programme you have. Mine gives a final quarter black moon. I think it's Astro. Com that puts the waxing crescent moon above the cross of matter. Don't know what others use.
But THE glyph (and the one I use when doing hand-drawn charts) is the black waning crescent Moon sitting on the cross of matter with her 'point' in free air for all to see !!! Great symbolism, especially when you see it as the inverted glyph of Saturn, cross of matter above joined obedient moon. :D

Glyph for Jupiter is like an old fashioned elegantly written number four; the moon above, yet linked to the cross of matter.

Symbolically, I think the glyphs with O, ) and + = spirit, soul, and matter (body) say more than the old-fashioned ones, especially for Uranus and Pluto. (It's so long ago, I can't even remember at this moment what the old glyphs for Saturn and Pluto were :lol: )

F.

Frisiangal

02-28-2006, 10:19 AM

I have no idea what has happened but the L-O-N-G reply I posted with Lilith comments has disappeared as soon as I added the glyphs comment :cry:
Can anyone see it?

F

02-28-2006, 06:04 PM

:( Frisi,
Tech comment: moving between open windows while
drafting a reply may cause reply to disappear....hope
your long message can be retrieved (....!!!gosh, Lilith!....could ya be good, here!?) :x
:P

Please do not be too frustrated, Frisi===you're studying
Lilith, who has some information to share IMHO through u.

C1

Frisiangal

02-28-2006, 10:21 PM

Thanks C1.
I think it's gone forever.
Too much in Pisces to-day effecting my BML-CH-Ascendant in Virgo square Uranus, and tr. Mercury squares natal Saturn.
I'll try a re-post later should anyone be interested......or maybe I'd better wait for Mercury's forthcoming retrograde to be over first. With Gemini on the MC as well, it has a way of catching me out when I'm not paying attention :wink:

F.

03-01-2006, 03:04 AM

:lol: Frisiangal,
....and transiting True BML is cj transiting MEAN BML

at 4 Virgo, yes....and both are
conjunct my natal
asteroid Lilith 1181 at that Virgo point :!:

and all are squaring transiting Pholus,

and so if you'd rather wait 'til after Mercury
directs....that's an option, for sure!:wink:

Lilith's frisky in Virgo, I'd say!

8)

C1

Light

03-04-2006, 02:20 PM

Frisangel

Thank you. I found it! :D (I also finally managed to access the links! Retrograde Mer and I can access things and learn something! Must be natal Retro Mer! :oops:

True BML is at 26 Libra in my 12th house. Mean BML is at 19 Libra in the 12th.

True BML is squaring my nodal axis quite nicely! (SN Cap 3 NN Can 9).

What this feels like is way beyond my capabilities at the moment (still very much a beginner), but thank you for the infomation, it will keep me busy!! :lol:

take care

hel

Frisiangal

03-05-2006, 09:48 PM

Frisangel

True BML is at 26 Libra in my 12th house. Mean BML is at 19 Libra in the 12th.

True BML is squaring my nodal axis quite nicely! (SN Cap 3 NN Can 9).

What this feels like is way beyond my capabilities at the moment
hel.........

Are there issues around not feeling accepted and treated as an equal?
Libra is also associated with the beauty of the skin. I've seen a number of charts where skin colouring played a defining role in one's physical attraction/repulsion towards one's self or another.

Should BML makes a harsh aspect to Venus, keep a check on the kidneys. OTOH, a dear friend with BML in Libra donated a kidney to her brother and feels no worse for it.

I haven't yet reached studying BML with the nodes and am just hypothesising here, but its position in the 12th, which has been acknowledged by some to be associated with far ancestral roots, plus the square to NN in Cancer in the 9th, could suggest either the attraction to, or repulsion of a cultural heritage, especially in mystical rites .

F.

Kite

04-01-2006, 07:14 PM

Bumping up.

Light

04-02-2006, 12:17 AM

Kite

Are you reading my mind? :D and telling me what to do? :D :D

Or my concious?...

I'm on to it :D

Fris

Sorry for the delay with this, I've been trying to work it out. Not getting far, mind you... :oops:

Are there issues around not feeling accepted and treated as an equal?

Not fitting in full stop. I thought that was my Me/Sa conj in 3rd, though. I'm so typical of that combination. But, with BML on the 11/12 cusp (depends on which system, but pretty close to 12 in all of them (12 equal)), it fits.

I've seen a number of charts where skin colouring played a defining role in one's physical attraction/repulsion towards one's self or another.

ummm. Not sure about this. I just don't like the look of my face. My skin was always pretty good, not so good now - bad diet and too much smoking. Although people joke about me wearing my ethnic jeans in the summer!! My sister knows there's some secret in the family but won't say, I certainly can't get it out of anyone. :oops:

I haven't yet reached studying BML with the nodes and am just hypothesising here, but its position in the 12th, which has been acknowledged by some to be associated with far ancestral roots, plus the square to NN in Cancer in the 9th, could suggest either the attraction to, or repulsion of a cultural heritage, especially in mystical rites .

Cultural heritage - no. Mystical rites - yes. I have always been drawn to them, but have stopped myself from looking into it. A very strong fear. Yet tinged with excitement. I've just been studying (or trying to) the nodes - am I right in that fear/excitement is the nn operating?

Going back to noddy basics - with BML the childkiller in the house of the womb (12), squaring the mothering sign of cancer, won't she be preventing me mothering? With zero (natural) maternal instinct, to be a mother is a challenge - with a vertical learning curve. And only having the one child, (being terrified of pregnacy) BML has been operating? (I can tell Merc's gone straight again :? :evil: :D )

Anyway, my nodes are calling me back (or rather the piece is)

Thanks for your time

take care

hel

StelliumGoat

11-29-2006, 07:59 AM

Frisiangal

11-30-2006, 06:13 PM

I was just wondering if someone can interpret my lillith. I have lillith, Juno, and my south node in Virgo in the 8th house, my moon in Libra is also in the 8th house, what does it all mean?

P.S. (How do you spell lillith, one or two L's inbetween the I's?)

L-I-L-I-T-H.

I have observed that it isn't just Lilith's position that is important but the aspects made to a planet, through which it can make its presence felt in the physical world.

In all cases I have of MEAN BML (there is also TRUE Lilith and Asteroid Lilith) in harsh aspect in Virgo, they have related to a 'false image' one has of one's self as a result of something they consider, but not necessarily is, physically imperfect about them. This 'false image' is often the result of other people's ideas about them.
E.g. a client with 8th house BML in Virgo quincunx natal Mercury was 'interefered with' regularly as a child by a family friend, which she kept quiet about, although she knew it was wrong. When she finally spoke up about it, SHE was seen as a liar and 'bad' whilst the friend was defended!! She carried this idea of 'bad girl' about herself for over 35 years!
I also have BML in Virgo and went around with a false image of myself for years as a result of being referred to as 'Miss Prim and Proper', which was regarded as 'ab'normal, yet is perfectly naturalfor Virgo:) .
My daughter has BML in Taurus in the 8th house. She is physically 'well-endowed' but hated the way men used to look at her chest instead of her eyes. It made her 'feel like a whore'.

If your pseudonym refers to a planetary pattern and BML aspects that pattern, there is probably a natural and deep inner wisdom within you that attracts you to the use of ancient rites, symbols and methods as a way to express your special gift that lay(s) dormant. But it may not be considered 'normal' by those through whom you long to feel accepted.

Just a few ideas to toy with.

F.

StelliumGoat

12-06-2006, 08:09 PM

Thanks so much for responding about my lilith. I would've replied sooner but haven't been in a very "talkie" mood lately. You are right on the mark with some of your ideas about lilith being in virgo. I have gone through some VERY similar experiences you speak of, like the family friend, the whole self image thing, and even when you speak of your daughter, I feel I can totally relate.

unukalhai

02-12-2007, 06:43 AM

Hello all,

I've had a sort of strange run-in with Lilith and have been researching her yesterday and today, and remembered this thread... I found an interesting paper in PDF format on Lilith and figured I would share...

http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/Lillith.pdf

A most interesting thread. Thanks all for the wide range of input, I will probably post here in the future when I wrap my retrograde mind (Mercury) around her a bit more!

Themis

02-12-2007, 12:54 PM

thanks Unukalhai for this interesting article. the point that caught my eyes is Lilith in relation to Mars expounded in it. i always felt a missed piece of puzzle in my own Lilith, now it seems clearer...:rolleyes:

unukalhai

02-14-2007, 06:32 AM

I found that quite interesting too! You're welcome :)

utopia

02-15-2007, 10:07 AM

kite,

I loved the way you express yourself I don't know if it is your lilith on asc that makes you express yourself easily or your 11th house mercury. But the ability to express a potential is a gift.
I think here in your chart lililth sembolizes sexual problems and conjucting chiron, it appears as your wounded part but when it is on the ASc you can talk about it and take the advantage of using other peoples help. It would be so much harder if the two weren't conjuct to asc. this position helps you to understand the problem and catch yourself, becouse the effects are seen here...

Kite

02-19-2007, 12:31 PM

Thanks Utopia. I feel blessed that the trauma I experienced as a child turned me inside out and put me on the path of self-integration.

Certainly this is not the easiest path, nor for the faint of heart but it has been intrinsicly rewarding and has opened many doors towards meeting up with my inner self.

Lilith herself contains Lili in her name which is a flowering connected with death and rebirth. She may have been unfairly forced underground but I sense her transformation coming when the butterfly finally emerges from her cacoon.

Best,

Kite

starlink

03-19-2007, 02:25 PM

Frisiangal, up till now I never ever even considered looking at Lilith or BML. Too little written about it, so I thought, there is enough to deal with without adding this one as well. I just started looking a bit at Chiron, also one of those very little written about, but at least I found a bit more info about it. I just interprete it as "the place in the chart where your achillis tendon lies". I would not know how to interprete it otherwise. Now about Lilith. I also do the charts with Astrodienst and I believe the Lilith they give is the BML. I then went to additional Asteroids and found a number to put in for Lilith, which is I guess the normal Lilith. So I have BML in my 2nd house, in Capricorn, trining my Sun, sextiling my Moon, Inconj. Pluto and square Venus (ruler of my Sun).
Lilith is in my 4th in Pisces, sextiling my Sun and trining my Moon. So both Lilitht's are quite well aspected. So now is my question, how do I interprete these two? Which one is the most important of the two? (in your last thread to Radu about his missing oppositions, you put a lot of emphasis on BML, so I guess, you find this one more important. Why?). BML is supposed to be a sort of evil point (asteroid?), sexually interested etc. I wonder how you would interprete mine, being quite nicely aspected (except for the square to Venus).
I really would appreciate you clarifying a bit so I can get the feel of this Lilith thing. Like Draco (where on earth is he, have not seen him in the Forum for such a long time!) I am a bit weary of introducing even more points, stars and stripes in the already so complicated Astrological jargon. Thanks!

Frisiangal

03-22-2007, 01:19 PM

[QUOTE]Frisiangal, up till now I never ever even considered looking at Lilith or BML. Too little written about it,

I had been studying astrology for over 18 years before I ever heard of the point and 'HER' relevance applied to ITS meaning.

Now about Lilith. I also do the charts with Astrodienst and I believe the Lilith they give is the BML. I then went to additional Asteroids and found a number to put in for Lilith, which is I guess the normal Lilith. So I have BML in my 2nd house, in Capricorn, trining my Sun, sextiling my Moon, Inconj. Pluto and square Venus (ruler of my Sun).
Lilith is in my 4th in Pisces, sextiling my Sun and trining my Moon. So both Lilitht's are quite well aspected. So now is my question, how do I interprete these two? Which one is the most important of the two? (in your last thread to Radu about his missing oppositions, you put a lot of emphasis on BML, so I guess, you find this one more important. Why?). BML is supposed to be a sort of evil point (asteroid?), sexually interested etc. I wonder how you would interprete mine, being quite nicely aspected (except for the square to Venus).
I really would appreciate you clarifying a bit so I can get the feel of this Lilith thing.

If you go back in this thread you will find a post from, I believe, Kite, who explained the different calculated positions of 'Black Moon Lilith' and the asteroid 'Lilith'. You can also go to Juan Revilla's site, who is an expert on the significance of the Black Moon. He goes into the calculations as well.

I've never been concerned with the various astronomical/mathematical calculations, rather than the meaning behind ONE point within them; the MEAN position of Black Moon Lilith, which is the one Astrodienst provides. Other software prefers one or more of the other positions. My reason is explained at the bottom of my 2nd post in the 'Bloody Mary-Lilith' thread in the Celebrity section of the forum. I don't want to go into repetitive explanations yet again, so perhaps you might like to look at my first post on this thread, as well as a post I wrote regarding the difference between Chiron-Lilith on another thread in this section about this time last year.

I have absolutely no idea what asteroid Lilith means and implies because I've never used asteroids as part of astro. intepretation. In Pisces, it might refer to the 'sexy siren' of myth; who knows?

I have not found any significance with the placing of TRUE BML as it would relate to the meaning of MEAN BML, but this does not mean that there isn't one. The two points can be as much as 25 degrees apart.

How do you interpret MEAN BML in Capricorn, position as per Astrodienst?
Ask yourself if you come up to the standards of what Capricorn authority implies and, if you don't, what is it you feel lacking in yourself that you don't care to admit to, OR will not allow existence into your life. I could provide intuitive ideas as a result of study, but it really is more important that you can discover for your Self what it is inside you just longing to get out!;)

Like Draco (where on earth is he, have not seen him in the Forum for such a long time!) I am a bit weary of introducing even more points, stars and stripes in the already so complicated Astrological jargon. Thanks

I totally agree with you. That's why I keep to the planetary positions, nodes, PF and BML only. Put in midpoints, asteroids, fixed stars, Arabic parts etc., and you can find an answer to almost anything but lose the individual.:D

F.

starlink

03-22-2007, 06:25 PM

AquarianEssence

03-22-2007, 08:18 PM

I have drawn all three Lilith glyphs and placed them here (http://www.geocities.com/aquarianessence/lilithastro.html) if you'd like to see them.

Frisiangal

03-22-2007, 11:48 PM

A big thanks for taking the time to answer me Frisiangal! I will print it out, read it again, go to the links and do hope things will be clearer for me after that. BML in my second house, I cant really think what I lack there, possibly the fact that I am not making big money?? Or that I dont give so much about material things and maybe do after all??I will ponder on it. Thanks again, really nice of you.

It wasn't until I had pushed the 'send' button last time that I realised that an inconjunct between BML in Cap. and Pluto must make you of the same generation as several 'oldies' here.:) Leo-Capricorn are difficult where authority and control are concerned. A bit like the prime minister/president and the Minister of Finance trying to share a bed.

The luminaries well aspected to BML would suggest a deep feeling of personal responsibility and 'providing' rather than caring for others out of 'a sense of moral duty.' There can be a natural and innate understanding of the values and worth of all that 'Earth' can provide, working with this talent in a practical way, as well as possibly within the form of traditions and/or rituals. BML in Cap. comes up quite a lot where 'the habit' and 'wearing the cloth' of the church has been significant through schooling or religious instruction. Very self-supporting. Positive BML's in Cap. rule the roost, wear the pants, fit the cap of authority, or simply exude an authority which can 'create a distance' in allowing one's self or others to get too close even though they may be very warm-hearted people.
Pluto in Leo seems to refer to the 'seeking an identity' generation to gain control of their own lives, only to lose it towards and within a greater cause once it is found. The inconjunct could be suggestive of the stress and strain of giving all towards this 'greater cause' if/when receiving personal physical reward for one's endeavours never seems to be forthcoming. BML in the 2nd house is, however, about the 'inner values' pertaining to one's talents. The 'price' one places upon one's self. And should a person tend to feel 'UNworthy' in some way rather than 'INvaluable' ? Possibly as a result of a BML-Venus aspect which is rapidly gaining a reputation for deeply hidden feelings regarding 'physical non-existence' of all that Venus implies. Maybe the reason for a Sun in Taurus? (I worked that out from the clues:D )

BML seems to refer to the force and strength of one's inner reality. Obviously, when in Capricorn, the position of Saturn's outer reality and any joint aspects it makes with BML are going to provide a manner to produce a creative form of expression.

F.

01-02-2008, 11:01 PM

Happy New Year.

BML and apogee/oscillating (true BML) are both in Scorpio (between

16 Scorpio and 19 Scorpio). Transiting Psyche's at 14 Scorpio.
All are soon going to be -- or already are -- opposite transiting Sedna
at 20 Taurus.

If we look inside we may see the Harry Potter-esque beauty of the tiger,
(or maybe it's more like the "Mother Earth protectrix" beauty of Beatrix Potter).

There are so many manifestations of transformation among us.
For the Pluto-in-Leo generation and the younger Pluto-in-Scorpio's,
there is emerging something fierce like Sedna perhaps.

Anyway, I look at my chart and see so much happening.
It will take a while to put it into words.

So, I send everyone best wishes for enjoyment during this turning point
of Earth at high velocity, at perihelion (closest to the Sun) coming around
again, and good luck to all in the coming 13 moons!

C1

Sag Moon

01-06-2008, 03:42 PM

I have read some of the post about Lillith here and still do not know what to think about this point even with it being so focal in my chart.

In my own chart it conjuncts my Asc, at 2deg (Asc@deg).Cancer, and is at the midpoint between Me/Ur at 45Deg. aspect to each. It also is Op. to Ju on the 7th.It is also Sq. to Ma 10th and Sextile to Pluto 3rd. A real lot of intergration forms at my ascendent I think.
It is also focal being at the Apex point of a Thors Hammer\Finger of the World formation.

At best I think it gives a sensitivity to what I see in life.

Neptune Rising

02-18-2008, 03:14 PM

Mmm interesting. I only recently started to look into Lilith, as the transiting North Node was exactly on my natal Lilith. I was feeling very much in pain for some reason.

I just noticed in a year and for quite a few years to come, progressed Lilith will be conjunct my progressed Sun. They meet just as pr Sun enters Pisces. This pair will be in the 1st house, trine prorgressed Uranus in the 9th. I think some rebellious tendencies may come out, to do with philosophies. They already are. Its an intersting concept, the dark side of the Moon will conjunct the Sun in Pisces - what can that bring out? Perhaps the more subtle side of Pisces, or more hidden, dark sides.

I guess these transits all happen for a reason, and its time to learn the lessons of Lilith, with the transit N Node giving me a taste of things to come. Reading about Lilith now, I see its nothing to be afraid of, its just showing the more hidden parts of the psyche.

NR

Kite

01-14-2010, 03:17 AM

LuluBelle

01-14-2010, 12:14 PM

"Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - each causing a drying of our collective ambiotic fluid in the process.

A dried up Lilith could explain the characterization of her as the unwilling submissive to Adam, and the killer of children."

Very insightful. It is my understanding that she Refused to submit! I have her at 5 degrees Cancer in 10th, with my Sun/Venus Cazimi at 1 degree. I was very submissive to men, but extremely resentful. Now, I refuse to submit at all. I'm on borrowed computer and don't have more info, but she has been getting alot of my attention lately. I'll have to gather the info and post more.

LuluBelle

01-14-2010, 12:34 PM

Mercurius

02-04-2010, 09:11 PM

Bumping up again since the upcoming solar eclipse in a couple of days exactly conjuncts Black Moon Lilith and Venus in Capricorn. How archetypical is this?

BTW - hello to old friends as I do my annual (or however long its been) check-in.

Yes because of this Eclipse I have been back on the Lilith case again. I wrote about it here. (http://funkastrology.co.uk/?p=840)

My most recent Blog looked at Asteroid Lilith (1181). (http://funkastrology.co.uk/?p=1473)

And way back in October I focused on Dark Moon Lilith (Waldemaths Moon) (http://funkastrology.co.uk/?p=422)

Once I've tackled the big one BLACK MOON LILITH (Mean,True & Osc positions) Then I will attempt to sum up all the Liliths. For me they work like the triple Moon Goddess. Like three sisters. Asteroid Lilith the rebel younger sis, Black Moon Lilith the fertile middle sis and Dark Moon the older wiser sister.

Demetra George alluded to this in her Dark Moon Goddess book. I am endlessly fascinated by Lilith.
I recommend Kelley Hunters book. Lilith the 4 faces of the Cosmic feminine too. (she talks about Algol the fixed star as being Lilith too)

AlvinChavez

04-26-2013, 03:28 PM

Lilith is the black moon

In Europe she was first discovered in 1720.She cannot reflect the light of the Sun,like our Moon and can only be observed as she casts her shadow on the Sun if she passes it.

In the bible and the talmud there is some information about her.In the language of symbols Adam is our Earth and Eve is our Moon.One says that Adam first had another woman,Lilith,who was rather wild and primitive and had a fur like an animal.(Every human embryo has,for a short time,in his development in the womb a fur,that falls out later,analogous to the times where Lilith had a bigger influence on mankind and granted him a fur).
The talmud tells that Lilith had a fight with Adam and left him.Three angels catched her and tried to persuade her to come back,but she did not.
So a new woman was created: Eve=Luna=Moon.Lilith was jealous of her and tried to seduce her descendants(that means we,all humans) to sexual games and murder.Her name means night,and is described as a vampire.

(information out of a book)

Lilith is someone who is a seducer,and I immediately think of lolita and lulu,names for girls in smoky nightclubs,with heavy makeup and sexy cheap lingeries (http://www.robustbuy.com/womens-clothes-lingerie-sets-c-1083_1085_1088.html) who are whispering in your ear,creating an illusion that can come true.You smell her perfume and she sits on your lap,dragging you into a world that doesn't exist....

I think Lilith is the seducer we should not be listening to....
It is something like cocaine,you feel great,but only for a short period of time,seducing you to go the easy way,a dead end street,leading you away from your real destiny we are all,deep in our hearts,aware of...
I will just ask my wife to read the post. It is important to have spice in life and these stuff surely helps a lot

LionLady

05-08-2013, 02:26 PM

Kite,

The asteriod Lilith, according to astro.com, listes mine at 0 Pisces 37' placing it in my 12th only minutes away from my ASC. They show this asteroid on the chart as "Lilit" only.

According to another source, ASC - Astro Communications Services, where I get all my natal charts, my natal shows Lilith (Dark Moon) - glyph is a circle with a diagonal line through it, at 14 Pisces 36' placing it in my 1st house as I mentioned.

Back at astro.com, under their list of "Additional Objects" Lilith (which one?) is listed along with Chiron and the other asteroid goddesses etc., in the chart represented as the right facing Moon glyph with the cross under it. In my chart this Lilith shows up at 19 Cancer 21' 34" putting it as you said, in my 5th house. Honestly and obviously, I don't know what "Lilith" this one is and I couldn't find any further info about it at astro.com. So.......??? You said there are 3 Lilith's so maybe this is the 3 of them. I trust my ASC natal chart showing the glyph of Lilith (Dark Moon according to them) as the circle with the line through it in my 1st house at 14 Pisces. Like it isn't all complicated enough!

Lapis

The three positions you quote are:

Asteroid Lilith - symbol horizontal line with 4 vertical lines (one with an arrow on it) - this is given by you as 0 Pisc 37

Dark Moon Lilith - symbol circle with angled line through it - at 14 Pisc 36
For clarity I prefer to call this the Shadow Moon. There is reputable astronomical research on this body. In Solar Fire it is listed as Dark Moon Waldemath.

Black Moon Lilith - symbol reversed crescent moon above cross and/or topped with an arrow at the top horn of the crescent - at 19 Canc 21.

Demetra George has written in depth on asteroid Lilith in her book "Asteroid Goddesses" - she has also written on the Three Liliths in a foreword to Francis Santoni's book The Black Moon. There is also Delphine Jay on the Dark Moon - but beware her ephemeris because it is not accurate. (see below)

About the Waldemath Black Moon: Ephems using this name are likely to give the correct placement for the object also known as Dark Moon Lilith. Not to be confused with Black Moon Lilith which is a point not an object, with completely different cycles.

There is an excellent short article explaining the differences here:
http://www.astrologysoftware.com/res...lith.asp?orig=

I have a print off of a longer article by Sue Simmons but I didn't bookmark the site and can't now find it. However, she does have a Yahoo group with information on the subject, and the article may be there.

Dark Moon Lilith was one of the very first objects noted by astronomers when telescopes were introduced in the 1620s. But it is so diffuse it can only be seen at Full (opposite Sun) when it appears as a dark red glow, or New (conjunct Sun) when it can occasionally be seen - with great care and if at the right latitude - crossing the disc of the Sun. There has been sporadic astronomical research at least until the 1960s, but it is so expensive now to devote telescope time to such odd objects .......

You can read Delphine Jay and Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen for history and interpretations of this moon, but don't use the ephemeris. If astro.com are calling it the Waldemath Black Moon they are almost certainly using the correct ephemeris. It is also in Solar Fire as Wm Dark Moon (I think) - one of the optional points.

Being a maverick I prefer to call her the Shadow Moon - if only to distinguish her from the Black Moon point. If you read up on the history you'll see why. The orbital period of 119 days and the lunation period (from Full to Full or New to New relative to Earth) of 177 days are so close to 6 x that of Luna Moon's, and its density is so low that I do wonder if perhaps this is a cloud of fine dust from the impact that created Luna (now accepted by scientists) that is gradually coming together to form another body for our solar system

There is a booklet about Black Moon Lilith called "Black Moon Lilith" by M Kelley Hunter which should still be available; also a book called simply "The Black Moon Book" usually listed under the name of Francis Santoni, which has an introductory piece about Liliths by Demetra George.

Hope some of this helps
:whistling: