Did Mary Magdelane bare a child fathered by Jesus?

[Liquid Green]

Ok, so its obvious i have just watched the da vinci code.....

I am asking this question, as i really would like to know....and i am also unsure how to go about a horary that is where the querent isnt really involved......

I guess mary would be the 10th house ruler which is saturn......
I guess any baby born of her would be the 5th house ruler, which is merc.....
saturn in the 4th
merc in the 10th

obviously with this eclipse descending upon us the question could be in trouble, but from here i am not sure where to go......

if jesus was the father then we would look to the 4th.....where saturn is (?)
the ruler of the 4th is leo......the sun ....which sits conjunct to merc......

from here i dont know where to go

hopefully i will learn a bit from this question and i hope the skilled of the community will come to help...............

cheers
kylie

edit: now that i come to think of it, do i need to use derived houses here? mary's fifth?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I would take the easy way out and do it as a rumor.

[Liquid Green]

:o...........i still dont know how to do that either kai..............

back to skyscript for me!

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Just go to William Lilly. Dude's got all the rules. :)

Fixed angles? Luna, Mercury, dispositor of both, and Third house lord in Fixed Signs? Mercury retrograde? Any of the above afflicted by Mars or Saturn? Saturn or Mars in the Third? Jupiter or Venus in the Third? Any of the above (Luna, Mercury, dispositors, Third house lord) supported by Jupiter or Venus? Angularity of the above?

Is that it? *scratches head* Feel like I forgot someone...

[KayBug]

Let's just say that I am happy believing Jesus Christ was perfect. I am very spiritual, christian and I belive and know this is not true. Nuff said.

[Liquid Green]

cmon now.....just because you have your beliefs, doesnt mean i cant have mine. you know this cant be true because??????????????????????????????

if your gonna throw out comments like that you better be prepared that you are gonna have people question you............
But as my guess is you wont be able to back up your beliefs with any solid facts so i will leave it there..........i dont want to get started

[KayBug]

I can't back up my beliefs with any solids facts or none that I know of but I can be happy and believe in mine.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Well then, Kaybug, you probably aren't going to enjoy the answer of this horary... :-S

[Liquid Green]

ok....i need help.
so many terms that lilly uses i am not familiar enough with yet....with practise and use i will

would someone mind telling me if i am wrong here please.........and helping me where i know i am wrong and dont have a clue......

he says "consider the lord of the asc and moon and see which of them is within an angle, "...............well venus isnt and the moon is. moving on....he then says "or if the dispositor of the moon be in an angle and a fixed sign(e)....." here i get confused.....the dispositor i think is saturn am i right?.....not at an angle or a fixed sign ....he then goes on to say " or if any of these be in a succeedent house and fixed sign or in good aspect with the fortunate planets (what are they?) viz (?) in sextile or trine of Jupiter, venus or sun you may judge the rumours to be true and very good (easy for you to say Mr Lilly!)

look does anyone have the time to help this idiot here?

[tsquare]

Why is having children so anti religious?
Why is it that having a child could make one inperfect?
Would it be because then the facts stated in some sources about his past would be in question?
Not sure about this.
I find it odd we are missing 30 years of one of the most influential religious figures of all time.
Almost convenient.
How could we be missing so much data on the fellow??
How about the Council of Nicene.(spelling?)
Could there have been other books....other teachings destoyed??
That would make an interesting horary.

Kabug,
what books do you read??
Christian is a broad term for me.
Do you believe that the Catholic church is the only one true church like they have stated?
What defines Perfect for you?
In your definition what is that?
Curious, thats all.
I'm not going to attack you for your beliefs, just a bit more curious on how you came about them.....a book?...local church?? Family beliefs? Community Beliefs?...Organized Religion Beliefs....self evident for you a truth?
Or a composite of a few of the above?

Tsquare

[Liquid Green]

i think i have just jumped into water that is too deep and i cant swim very well................sorry folks......

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

he says "consider the lord of the asc and moon and see which of them is within an angle, "...............well venus isnt and the moon is.

Right, right. So that's one yes and one no.

moving on....he then says "or if the dispositor of the moon be in an angle and a fixed sign(e)....." here i get confused.....the dispositor i think is saturn am i right?.....not at an angle or a fixed sign

Yes, the dispositor of Luna is indeed Saturn. Saturn is retrograde - suggesting no - mutable - suggesting no - but Saturn is angular, which suggests truth.

....he then goes on to say " or if any of these be in a succeedent house and fixed sign or in good aspect with the fortunate planets (what are they?) viz (?) in sextile or trine of Jupiter, venus or sun you may judge the rumours to be true and very good (easy for you to say Mr Lilly!)


He's saying those planets (Luna, Venus, and Saturn) can be in a succeedant house and in a Fixed Sign and still show to give truth to the rumor. Especially if in a beneficial aspect to Jupiter, Venus, or Sol with a Sextile or Trine.

Sometimes Lillyspeak is complicated.

[Liquid Green]

Yes, the dispositor of Luna is indeed Saturn. Saturn is retrograde - suggesting no - mutable - suggesting no - but Saturn is angular, which suggests truth.

so as long as the planet isnt in a succeedent house its angular?....doesnt make sense to me.......cos hes talked about the succeedent houses.....it seems hes covered all possibilities...angulars and succeedents.....i must be wrong

He's saying those planets (Luna, Venus, and Saturn) can be in a succeedant house and in a Fixed Sign and still show to give truth to the rumor. Especially if in a beneficial aspect to Jupiter, Venus, or Sol with a Sextile or Trine

ok....well saturn has a trine with jupiter in a succeedent house....not fixed.
venus and the moon make no trines or sextiles to any of the fortunate planets........how many yes's do you need?

thanks for your help Kai......much appreciated!:)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

so as long as the planet isnt in a succeedent house its angular?....doesnt make sense to me.......cos hes talked about the succeedent houses.....it seems hes covered all possibilities...angulars and succeedents.....i must be wrong

Significators in Cadent houses suggest falsehood (except for the Third, that one has special rules in this case). Also, significators in succeedant houses but not in Fixed Signs suggest falsehood. Planets in angular houses suggest some truth, no matter what Sign, but less truth if in mutable.

how many yes's do you need?

That's actually a very interesting question. There's no real qualifying amount , I would just say an overwhelming amount.

[Liquid Green]

Significators in Cadent houses suggest falsehood (except for the Third, that one has special rules in this case). Also, significators in succeedant houses but not in Fixed Signs suggest falsehood. Planets in angular houses suggest some truth, no matter what Sign, but less truth if in mutable.

ok i didnt know that about falsehoods....interesting
sorry i didnt think about the angular houses......for some reason i have hardly referred to anything in astro by them and basically didnt know what i was talking about :o(i'm honest and in need of some real study! I know that!)

the answer is pretty inconclusive i think.........

thanks again Kai.


kaybug,
i kind of agree with tsquare.........if jesus did have a baby with mary, then i dont see how that could not be perfect......making a baby is some kind of perfection in my eyes......making love in general is some kind of perfection to me......Jesus certainly did not say it wasn't ok.... are you kind of appalled somewhat because the question was about mary magdelane?......i am confused as to what you dont like about the question....i really am interested..........

[Liquid Green]

just remembered that saturn is a no....cos its retro.....leaving the trine a shambles............so i guess the answers no......

dont think i am going to leave it there though.(kaybug:))....my next horary will be....did he die on the cross!(not today though, i'm all Lilly'ed out for now).......lets use some horary to answer some of these questions a majority of the planet just believes, its better than nothing in my book...............

[Moulin]

Maybe a good question would be "was Jesus ever born"

[Liquid Green]

righteo.....im all for learning horary and finding out some truths.........you start it.............i'll post on it

[Radu]

Alrighty. Here we go: Mary Magdalene is signified by the 7th house ruler Mars as just some othe person inquired about.
Jesus is signified by the 9th house ruler, as he was a very important religious/spiritual figure. The presence of both benefics in the 9th house, Jupiter and Venus, reinforces the assingment, as he represented God.

Looking for a separating aspect between Mars and Saturn, as a testimonial of the relationship between the two, ending in giving birth to a child, there is none.

But there is a hidden connection by antiscia between the two planets and this is highly relevant as we are investigating a hidden story.

Mars is in a tight separating sextile (less than a degree orb) from Saturn's antiscion at 23 Aries 28. That would point towards a past hidden connection between the two persons, meaningful in the context of the question, as a "yes". But the thing is that the aspect was never perfected as Mars, the faster moving planet, just turned direct, switching movement direction. A classic refranation example.

Mary Magdalene didn't bare a child fathered by Jesus.

[Moulin]

No she didn't cos Jesus never existed in human form :eek:
:D :D :D

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

This is why I usually go for the rumor tactic, Radu. I would have said Jesus would be signified by the First house as the Seventh house's supposed partner. The fact that Jesus was a spiritual leader isn't relavant to this question, just was he Mary Magdelane's partner and did they have a child.

In the rumor tactic, there is no fussing about which house represents who when someone can fit within three houses understandably.

[tikana]

No she didn't cos Jesus never existed in human form :eek:
:D :D :D

Moulin

please tell us that you are joking.

We know he existed.. there is enough evidence for that. Although i do see where you coming from. It seems a bit of a strange junction between Jesus' real life and greek/babylonian mythology.

T

[Radu]

To Kai:

Yeap, horary astrology is an art - there is room for everyone to be creative.

However, the fact that Jesus was a very proeminent spiritual leader, considered by Christians as God, is not only relevant, but is part of the question. Ignoring that you ignore the very intention of the questioner: to challenge the known historical version [and try to find out the truth by horary].

John Frawley on the rumor technique [Horary Textbook, pages 164-165]

Caution: These questions are rare; keep them rare! [...] Always take the shortest route: what appears to be an "Is it true?" question can usually be relocated. [...] Throughout my career I have not judged more than a handful of questions as "Is it true?"

[tikana]

Radu

So let's put her 7th hosue

Mars - barren
the pregnancy - jupiter
moon - motherhood - barren combust
8th house sex - combust sun

I am not seeing this "pregnancy" at all!

i dont even think they were intimate
let alone pregnancy

what it is interesting is that
venus is receiving saturn by sign
could be political/teaching agenda on Jesus'side
and Mary;s mars on Gemini - studying / receiving the message

too much barrenness going on. i'd have to stick with a NO.
if there was a romantic link, I would have said they were at least modern day dating but that is missing entirely.

Plus venus is in 9th house /... higher teaching.

It would have been great if there was an offspring but it is not possible

T

[Moulin]

Maybe Mary was in her 80's when Jesus was born :D

[Radu]

Valuable observations, Tikana.

Indeed Mary Magdalene's significator, Mars, and the cosignificator, the Moon, in barren signs are tough arguments.

Also an interesting observation is Jesus' significator, Saturn, in Virgo. Even if Virgo is not traditionally considered as a barren sign, it seems however to be telling in this case.

Both significators are disposed by Mercury - in a barren sign and combust.

[Radu]

Maybe Mary was in her 80's when Jesus was born :D
Moulin, besides being terribly wrong and persistent, you are not helping with the horary chart.
Don't push your luck. :p

[Moulin]

Sorry - l was only thinking that if Mary was barren maybe there was no immaculate conception either. I won't intrude again :34:
Moulin, besides being terribly wrong and persistent, you are not helping with the horary chart.
Don't push your luck. :p

[tikana]

Moulin

Mary Magdalene is not Jesus'mother.

Mary Magdalene was a widow of a rich husband who died a few years prior to meeting Jesus. She used to bring bread and grapes to Jesus and his men. Mary was from a town called Magdala.

Tik

[Moulin]

Ignor me Tik - i'm really ill and my brain is obviously affected LOL :o

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Then I think you get into another big thing about making horary too complicated, which is why I often do use the rumor scenario because it's pretty cut and clean. Though maybe in doing that I often do the exact opposite and instead of over-complicating I over-simplify.

Wanted to get this in and follow my idea of Jesus as the First house instead of the Ninth. I still don't really think his being a spiritual leader is that significant to the question. Sure, he was one, but we're asking if he and this woman had a child together. The official story is they didn't, but now there is a rumor with supposed proof saying that they did. Anyway.

The First house Lord is Venus who Mars (Mary) receives by Exaltation and is even in Mars's Face of Capricorn, so she is receiving him in two ways. Exaltation and Face perhaps showing two differing ways 'exaltation' being a more obvious (she was a follower of his teachings, we all knew that) and perhaps the 'face' being something a little less obvious. ;) Jesus (Venus), though is not receiving Mary (Mars). This could be an obvious 'duh' as men don't get pregnant. ;) If that's what it's talking about.

Doing it another way I thought of. "Mary's child's father." Mary is the Seventh, her child the Eleventh (which is very close to the Ninth cusp by the way), the child's father is the Second.

Hm...too many ways... -.-'

[Liquid Green]

gotta read over this some more, but i am glad for the interest.......

I wouldnt have gone to the 9th to look for jesus........to much controversy....but i guess you gotta wonder where to look for him otherwise....

I like the "recieving" Kai........makes some literal sense there! Even if there was no child as a result.............

Tik.....i love your no nonsense.....there are so many factors to look at when looking at horary i am finding.....to look at the barreness i wouldnt have thought of......

This is really interesting folks.....I love the fact that you all have so many views.........its so helpful to learning......

Moulin, love, i know you believe zeitgeist, but i still believe jesus was a man........dont doubt it for one moment.... I really support you asking the question through horary though................I do..........lets get to the bottom of these things......:)

[Stacey5271]

So maybe there is truth to him having a child, but the mother is not Mary Magdalen? I'm still learning how to read natal charts and have just started getting into transits. I don't yet have the ability to look at a horary with any understanding. However, I find this discussion extremely interesting.

Earlier in the thread, someone asked if books had ever been removed or left out of the Bible. That would be a big YES. The History channel even did a documentary on it - BANNED FROM THE BIBLE.

[Liquid Green]

Stacey, I think it was a rhetorical question......;)

[Radu]

Just another post restating that I support the initial house assignement with some more details.

I considered the 7th house as Mary Magdalene as she was the person inquired about. This is standard in horary. The 7th house cusp in Scorpio is a perfect fit as she was exorcised: "In Luke 8:2-3 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Luke&verse=8:2-3&src=KJV) Mary Magdalene is mentioned as one of the women who "ministered to Him [Jesus] of their substance" (in other words, they provided Jesus with money or supplies). The same passage also refers briefly to an act of exorcism performed on her, on an occasion when seven demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon) were cast out."

The 9th house seems to be fit to signifiy Jesus, as the most influential spiritual figure in the history of humankind. He obviously isn't just "some partner" to Mary. The presence of both benefics in the 9th house is very fit. So is the 9th house in Capricorn. At the time of Jesus' teaching, death and resurrection Neptune was in Capricorn. I think Capricorn is therefore fit to describe Christianity somehow and here is an article on that http://newsletter.astrologyweekly.com/week7.php .

Correcting a previous statement, it is noteworthy that both significators are in barren signs.

[Moulin]

So are you now saying Radu that there is a possibility that with both significators being in barren signs, Mary and Jesus may never have existed in a physical manifestation?

Correcting a previous statement, it is noteworthy that both significators are in barren signs.



LG - actually l have always thought that Jesus never existed in a physical sense as is written in the bible and was in fact either a spiritual concept or a normal man whom was connected to his higher self which explains all his miracles :)

[tikana]

Moulin..

I really like you but what you are saying is NOT making any sense.. There is a historical figure Jesus.

his persona and life could have been over painted but he existed.

T

[Moulin]

OK Tik

I will back down as this is an horary thread and l respect you.
I do not change my view though, seeing as there is not really any hard evidence that he did exist ;)

Moulin..

I really like you but what you are saying is NOT making any sense.. There is a historical figure Jesus.

his persona and life could have been over painted but he existed.

T

[Radu]

Moulin, fyi there are lots of historical records and testimonials dating from Jesus' time, not to mention religious artifacts such as pieces from the cross, foot or handprints and many other evidences.

Welcome to Earth!

The fact that there are partly similar stories to that of Jesus, in many traditions (Celtic, Dacian, Persian, Hinduism, Buddhism etc), doesn't invalidate anything, it could just be atributed to some mysterious divine happening, possibly atributed to the law of resonance, as spirituality is the same to all mankind.

[Radu]

Moulin, fyi there are lots of historical records and testimonials dating from Jesus' time, not to mention religious artifacts such as pieces from the cross, foot or handprints and many other evidences.

Welcome to Earth!

The fact that there are partly similar stories to that of Jesus, in many traditions (Celtic, Dacian, Persian, Hinduism, Buddhism etc), doesn't invalidate anything, it could just be atributed to some mysterious divine happening, possibly atributed to the law of resonance, as spirituality is the same to all mankind.

[Moulin]

"dating from Jesus's time" doesn't necessarily mean 'pertaining to Jesus' :D

ok ok l know when my out of the box, bigger picture view is not wanted and it's cool! Luckily the Aries in me doesn't mind ;)

[tikana]

Moulin

read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

T

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

He obviously isn't just "some partner" to Mary.

No, but he is her supposed partner that he supposedly had a child with which is the entire point of this question. I don't feel his affiliations with the Ninth house are at all important here, especially since his supposed chasity is being called into question. Both benefics may be in the Ninth house, but neither are particularly happily placed in Capricorn, so I don't see how this serves as a point.

[Liquid Green]

"ministered to Him [Jesus] of their substance" (in other words, they provided Jesus with money or supplies)."
could they have ministered something else to him, of there substance i wonder?;)................it does talk of women in particular.....

I understand the connection of jesus to the 9th...........totally possible.....such a hard one..........

Moulin......Read JESUS LIVED IN INDIA...........i cant understand why the indians would want to claim to have historical references to jesus, just as a fib to tell..............they have no reason for having stories about him, they want nothing from them......he did exist......like i said..........do an horary.......after all this is astro......

[Liquid Green]

Kai.....so what house would you put jesus in.....as marys partner, the father of her possible child....wouldnt mary be the 10th.....(if she were indeed a mother?).........as a woman before motherhood ? perhaps i have asked this question the wrong way around.....but its done now....should have asked if she was ever pregnant......that would have been a beginning....

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I agree with Radu in that Mary is the Seventh, being the person inquired after. However, I feel Jesus is the First as Seventh from the Seventh - Mary's partner - because it's the most direct connection the question. We're basically asking if he was her partner and if they had a child.

However, I would also not be against him as the Fourth from the Eleventh, but then that's just the child's father, and may in no way relate it back to Jesus himself. So, since Mary is the Seventh and her supposed partner is Jesus (which is directly relevant to the question), I think he's most acurately the First, at least logically.

[Liquid Green]

Ok......i reckon jesus is the 10th......he was known as the "king of the jews"....
mary is the 7th........
how you join those two, is not clear to me yet......my head is spinning to be quite honest with you all

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

All this Jesus-jumping (:D I like it!) is exactly the reason I prefer to use the rumor set-up. No guessing, no debate about what house is who...just the way it is...

[Radu]

In horary the KISS rule should generaly be observed: so let's keep it as simple as possible - too much chart turning could lead to torticolis. :)

We could ignore Jesus in the chart alltogether, if it's controversial. The simpler question is: did Mary Magdalene have a child in the first place?
The 7th house (ruler Mars) and the turned 5th house from the 7th (ruler Jupiter) should tell the truth.

Try finding an aspect between the two planets by some technique. There is only one that I could identify: a separating opposition between Jupiter and Mars' antiscion at 05 Can 36 or a separating conjunction etween Jupiter and Mars contrantiscion. The thing is that this aspect was never perfected either, refranation. So this past connection cannot be further pursued.
Considering also that Mars, Mary's significator is in a barren sign, I think Mary Magdalene didn't have any child after all.

[Liquid Green]

the KISS rule radu?
torticolis?............... havent a clue what that means but it sounds about right......:D
I think i agree with you Radu..........not sure how well i did in the" is the rumour true", but personally, i think that was the easiest way to go.....and right there i reckon the answer was no....
Perhaps Moulin will get that "did jesus exist" horary up on the board................:D

[Moulin]

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

[Liquid Green]

great.........thats really great......now i am stupid....moon in 12th getting upset here and a bit touchy..........at least i bloody try........ask for help and at least my head isn't growing abnormally large

[tikana]

Torticollis is a condition in which the head is tilted toward one side, and the chin is elevated and turned toward the opposite side.

LG, KISS does not apply to you directly .. so dont take it personally .. it is widely used in many fields not just astrology

T

[Liquid Green]

pain in the neck hey..............well thats f***ing great.........nice to know how people feel about me.............

[Moulin]

Oh for god's sake STOP IT!!!

Keep it simple stupid is KISS

Doh!!!!! LMAO!!!

you do make me laugh LG great.........thats really great......now i am stupid....moon in 12th getting upset here and a bit touchy..........at least i bloody try........ask for help and at least my head isn't growing abnormally large

[Liquid Green]

I cant help that i have bloody cap moon and sun in the frigging 12th.....i do get sensitive............anyone wanna trade, cos i have had enough of it.....wish i was the one who didnt know my time of bloody birth at times

[Moulin]

LOL

LG, you do get ants in your pants over nothing :D

How could you get so sensitive when you were the one asking what KISS meant?


I cant help that i have bloody cap moon and sun in the frigging 12th.....i do get sensitive............anyone wanna trade, cos i have had enough of it.....wish i was the one who didnt know my time of bloody birth at times

[Liquid Green]

some part of me IS laughing at me.....another part knows i am just a twit.......sorry

[tikana]

okay guys/gals

i have a theory

back in Jesus and Mary Magdalene's time, women were never pregnant. Men were never having sex .. Sperm and egg used to be waterborne. THey used to meet in the bathhouses. so one day Jesus'sperm and Mary's egg met in the Roman bathhouse and that is how the offspring of Jesus/Mary was born
so technically speaking, Mary was never pregnant yet there was an offspring

Is everyone happy with this story"?

*grinning*

T

[Radu]

Yes, torticolis: spasm of the sternocleidomastoidian muscle. Like this:
http://www.soundmedicine.iu.edu/images/features/cervicalDystonia.jpg

It's a common occupational disease in horary astrologers, due to chart turning.
:D

[Radu]

As for the KISS rule in astrology:
Aries
Your kisses are quick and passionate fits of lustful pleasure that are there and then gone.
Taurus
Your kisses linger; they are deliberate, heartfelt and they can go on and on and on…
Gemini
Your kisses are interrupted by spasms of giggles, smiles and funny observations.
Cancer
Your kisses are warm and tender, and you never want to let them go.
Leo
Your kisses are wild and uninhibited, biting and clawing; you expect applause for your performance.
Virgo
Your kisses are so subtle and tidy, your lover only notices them once you've finished.
Libra
You're too busy worrying about your breath to really get into your kisses.
Scorpio
You skip the kiss and get to straight to ... whatever comes next for you.
Sagittarius
Your kisses are surprising, spontaneous affairs that leave the kissed wanting more.
Capricorn
Your kisses are intense moments of sublime relief from the stress of your day.
Aquarius
Your kisses are wet and messy, and you tend to keep your eyes open.
Pisces
Your kisses are starry-eyed, amorous and long-lasting.
http://love.astrology.com/kissing.html

[Liquid Green]

:D :D :D...........thanks radu...........your a champ. MMMMMWWWAAAHH!

[tsquare]

My mom brought me a whole stack of strawberry jelly sandwitches yesturday (mmmmm.. good!!) while I was looking over some horary charts in bed....I was really, really hungry....been a bit obsessed with this new book I have..and some of the charts are starting to get to me I suppose... Mabie been staying up too late and not getting enough sleep.
Could I have the dreaded torticolis??:eek:
I'm not too woried about it but mom got real scared for some reason....something about how "I've changed" or something........whatever:rolleyes:.....I think im ok......she's just a bit of a worry wart sometimes..............thats moms for ya.:rolleyes:
but I'd thought I'd post this anyway.....I'm still new to horary and just getting into it.....anybody ever seen anything like this before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qG5V2iBvFs&feature=related

I'm sure it's really nothing to worry about...mabie just something I have to get used to....comes with the teritory I suppose.

Thanks,
Tsquare:(








:D