Deceptive people..

[4leafclovah]

What would be considered red flags in a chart if you were looking for signs of a deceptive individual? Neptune in the 1st could indicate deception, yes?
I am not talking about someone who tells little white lies, but someone who deceives with malicious intent.Any comments?

[lillyjgc]

4LeafClovah,
I have afew charts involving people who have the issue of *deception* in their lives....
You refer to *someone who lies with malicious intent*...I'm not sure how one can objectively assess the *intent* or *motivation *that is behind a person's action...
People lie for as many reasons as there are people....
In one case, a person whose dishonesty/deception I personally experienced,
had their sun and asc quincunx...fire and water..Many of his/her lies were to protect from possible shame as a result of a very abusive upbringing....fear motivating his/her lying.
Another person I know who is very easily deceived, has neptune on the h7 cusp.
Another person whose deception I have experienced has mercury and neptune square in the natal.
To me Neptune in the first could ALSO indicate someone who is *blind* to what is going on..which could indicate gullibility.
One of the *biggest liars* I have met so far,has sun in H1 square neptune.
*Malicious intent* would be impossible to discern from a natal chart-or even a horary...
How one person impacts on another is more easily seen by looking at synastry charts...
Cheers, Lillyjgc

[Bobbi]

Yep, look for Neptune & any hard aspects to the sun/Asc . I have issues with Neptune & deception , they always seem to be NEPTUNE related. Also the 12th House of secrets & the hidden ......
L & L
Bobbi

[Moulin]

I know a few people with Neptune in 1st conjunct asc and l can honestly say they are not deceptive!!

they are far more likely to be hoodwinked by another that hoodwink someone else!!!!

Anyone else agree?

In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?

[Kingsley]

Sounds like you are asking about people willing to cheat others out of something or lie to gain some advantage from them. A criminal type, anti social or sociopath personality. Hmm for once I am silent but I will think about it. There might be more than one aspect set or planetary combination in play for that kind of person. The compulsive lyer is slightly different to the deceitful (manipulative) person. Jupiter/Pluto = Neptune Saturn/Pluto = Neptune midpoints according to Ebertin.

kingsley

[Nexus7]

The problem is whether or not it is down to a question of discerning the 'level' from the chart, or how much store to put on the kind of planetary pictures specified by Ebertin. Or are those 'wise after the event?'

Maybe there is a 'Minority Report' job somewhere for an handful of astrologers. Get busy arresting a few people before they have actually done anything.

I once knew someone with Sun in Pisces in the radix square Neptune too.

He had doe eyes, lamented much about the hard life he had had - no surprise when he also told me his father was a heavy-duty alcoholic.

I could not be sure of his 'level' then, but the red flags started to fly when he told me that two other people I knew had stolen CD's from him. I did not know much about their charts, but they just did not seem to be the type of people who would steal. Whereas he....

Later on, I noticed that one or two cassettes of mine had disappeared after visitng him, then he started to cadge from me.

The cassettes were not great los, but I found out that he had borrowed a great deal of money from one or two others and swindled another out of a good deal of merchandise.

[Kingsley]

good points nexus. One doesn't usually get these types of people for readings per say. In my other business the justice department has sent me quite a few though. Some of the midpoint structures can be independant from accurate birth times or at least hold some ground with these aspects of personality. Some of the levels as you put it are difficult to assess but when I have seen how they work over a few years I guess I start trusting how they work and develop my own understandings of chart functions. Isn't that what an astrologer does?

What area of chart function are you more inclined to understand or investigate?

kingsley

[4leafclovah]

I once knew someone with Sun in Pisces in the radix square Neptune too.
He had doe eyes,. Oh dear, you just described me( doe eyes, sun in Pisces, Nep sq.sun) BUT..I have never stolen in my life and I am not a liar( ok, a few little white lies have probably been told at some point.)My sun is in the 8th square Nep/5th and I have been the victim of deception several times and it is only because I chose not to listen to my intuition, even though I am very sensitive to peoples vibrations.Actually I am a very reliable person and loyal friend(Leo) I really think it all comes down to freedom of choice and how you choose to manifest certain energies. You could have a scary chart but live a very creative life and do something brilliant will the energy. Actually I think the more challenging a chart is the more power it has( for better or worse) Oh well, I guess the rest of my chart balances out the flaws:p

[gaer]

As is true of abuse, it is very difficult to tell is someone is:

1) Someone who has been abused.
2) Someone who abuses others.
3) Both.

We are dealing with the same problem.

1) People who deceive others.
2) People who are deceived by others.
3) Both.

For deception I would certainly look at Neptune, but it would only be one factor out of many that MIGHT lead to a correct conclusion.

[kizmetbaby]

What would be considered red flags in a chart if you were looking for signs of a deceptive individual? Neptune in the 1st could indicate deception, yes?
I am not talking about someone who tells little white lies, but someone who deceives with malicious intent.Any comments?

Wow...I have the dastardly Neptune in the 1st...and if I TRY to tell a lie...I feel sooooo guilty...ridiculously guilty...the Catholic kind of guilt...(I'm not even Catholic). And I don't think it makes me malicious at all...I wouldn't hurt a living soul. If anything I think it makes me overly-sensitive and empathetic. I literally put myself in another's shoes more often than not.

HOWEVER...I DO have two different names. I have my name that I was given at birth...and then...I have a "stage name" for my job. There more people that know me by my air name...than by my birth name...for sure. If I had a dollar for every person that admitted they'd had the wrong impression of me...after having been able to get to know me...well...I'd be rollin' in cash.

Neptune in the 1st causes duality in my personality...it's in Scorpio...so you blend that with Nep/1st with a Scorpio Ascendant...and it's all surrealistic at times...but malicious????? NEVER. It would break my heart to think I'd hurt another person. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I caused pain or suffering to another person...even if they had done something bad to me...and I've got two ex-husbands that would attest to that.

But...I think that if Nep was afflicted with negative Pluto/Mars/Saturn with a cold natured Moon...it's possible. It all depends on placement and I think how you were reared as a child.

(For the record...my Neptune is sextile my natal Pluto and Jupiter and square to Mars in Leo...and my parents beat me half to death when I was kid if I even so much as THOUGHT about telling even a little white lie...so maybe that helped?)

By the way...I draw...paint...play music...write...none of those exceedingly well...at least in my opinion...so I believe that is part of that 1st House Neptune as well.

Other things that I believe are more accurate markers...

The Moon Square Mercury...or in negative aspect to Uranus and Pluto...teamed up with a nasty Mars square Pluto is a pretty good indicator I think. And as far as those smooth, easy trines...you betcha! The 12th house is a good place to look for those signs of deception, as well.

In the case of the 12th...the deception isn't always with other people...sometimes it's a person being deceptive with themselves...or they furrow into addiction trying to medicate themselves.

[4leafclovah]

Kizmet, I was just using the Nep/1st as just one possible example of many. Like Gaer said it can also be a case where you are the one being deceived.

[kizmetbaby]

Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...

[4leafclovah]

Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...

OOh, I will have to take a look right now!;)

[4leafclovah]

Who's chart is it?

[kizmetbaby]

Let's just say...I had seven years to study this person...*ahem*

[gaer]

Wow...I have the dastardly Neptune in the 1st...and if I TRY to tell a lie...I feel sooooo guilty...ridiculously guilty...the Catholic kind of guilt...(I'm not even Catholic). And I don't think it makes me malicious at all...I wouldn't hurt a living soul. If anything I think it makes me overly-sensitive and empathetic. I literally put myself in another's shoes more often than not.

I have Neptune conjunct Sun/Moon. It's also sextile Pluto, but that latter aspect is in the charts of people born over the last 50 or more years.

And I had to LEARN how to lie. To this day it is very difficult, even if it is necessary. It also took me many years to protect myself from dishonest people, though Mercury in Scorpio is obviously a big help in unconvering hidden motives. :)

[kizmetbaby]

Wait a minute!

Clovah...you are absolutely right! I was the one that got duped in that deal...from the very beginning...in SOO many ways. Wow. Oh yeah.

[kizmetbaby]

Gaer...I'm going to go look at your chart. : )

Neptune makes me want to see things as all pretty and idealistic. I have this weird stellium in the 11th and an Aquarian Moon...and it counters my Scorpio rising tendencies. I can't hold a grudge...and it makes me want to understand WHY people do the things they do. I just can't stay mad at people or harbor resentment...and if I do...once again...I am STEEPED in horrendous guilt. I will literally try to do something FOR the person I've felt that way about to try to relieve myself and "repent" so to speak for how I've felt.

I'm mental.

*sigh*

[Kingsley]

I think it is one matter whether there is a potential signature for 'lying' in the chart however how one might act with that function. Mercury in Pisces might be a spiritually inclined thinker or in fact someone who tends towards mistruths but it will be the Mars/Uranus or Saturn/Uranus/Moon or some other signature that might tend toward breaking the law or harming another person; ie antisocial behaviours.

Thanks for including some charts to reference all.

kingsley

[4leafclovah]

First thing I noticed is the Sun conjunct Jupiter conj. ascendant /Cancer trine Nep/5th Scorpio. My interpretation is that he comes across as very nurturing or emotional and uses this in his love relationships to get what he wants( also Pisces ruler of 10th) Did he milk you for your money?:eek:

[kizmetbaby]

Money...oh yeah. You have NO idea. He STILL makes money off me. He was the biggest mistake of my life...and I couldn't see it. In a perfect world we'd never have to ever speak to each other again. Yuck!

[4leafclovah]

That really *****. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?

[kizmetbaby]

That really *****. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?

Ha! Never again...

I have the South Node conjunct and Chiron opposing Venus...I gave up a looooong time ago.

[Charm]

I have neptune in the 1st trine my moon. I have been known to be gullible. I had to grow out of it in my youth. But still, I have an innocent quality to always want to idealize people and think the best of them. For example, I never know what's going on in the gossip mill at work. I always just assume that everyone has good intentions like me! It took me a long time to accept the fact that people can just be evil. But that was in my 20's! Anyways I agree with neptune in 1st being intuitive, artistic, and head in the clouds!!!

As far as deceptive people. You have to look at a scorpionic influence. I have scorpio rising conjunct uranus in scorpio. I can be very private. The scorpios that I know keep a secret just for the sake of keeping one. So, that can turn in to deception depending upon the situation or person. Anyways, that's my 2 cents!

[deanna]

Mercury opposition Neptune
This confirgeration may cause someone to purposefully mystify or deceive others.

I have it and I can be convincing at times. But I gave up the deceptiveness/fakeness a while back. It was too much work and once I became a mom- and turned 40- there is only the truth to live by because there is nothing more real and wonderful than having a child.

--De

[gaer]

Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...
Can we assume you mean December 7th and not July 12th???

[Kingsley]

Here is a compuslive lier, his pants have been on fire thats for sure. He doesn't even let his left hand know what his right is doing although I think he got into some heavy trouble so he has reduced his activities to a lesser degree.

Hey I found a way to scrub the chart details in Paint.

k

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/imagehosting/5801478ef9a6973a4.jpg

[wayne penner]

While Neptune is often deceptive, it is more often self-deceptive than actually evil. An afflicted Saturn is more serious and can indicate a person capable of active deception.

Criminal behavior is different from criminal thought however - we have all wanted to kill the neighbor who plays his car stereo too loud, but were he actually injured in a wreck we would be the first to help him.

There is active and passive deception, the former is a conscious act in order to coerce another, usually for a criminal purpose, the second is complicated by vanity and self-approbation and is often harmless, as are the exaggerations of an afflicted Jupiter.

In all cases of active deception the person consciously makes a moral choice, and this involves the whole chart, not just Neptune.

One of the most famous deceivers in history was Adolf Hitler, but he had an obscure Neptune only semi-sextile the Sun. However, Saturn was elevated in the 10th in Leo and badly afflicted by Mars (and Venus). He was almost incapable of telling the truth, by design, and spoke and acted only in order to advance his own agenda.

Richard Nixon, another wonderful liar, had Sol opposition Neptune and Moon square Saturn in the 9th. Nixon was simply a scheming fool who eventually got entangled in his own lies, but the Moon Saturn square caused his downfall.
Bill Clinton, who lies all the time, has Neptune rising, but Mercury is conjunct
Saturn in Leo.

Saturn is more important than Neptune when it comes to deception.

[kizmetbaby]

Sorry about that...I keep forgetting...

July 12, 1966 is the date.

[Kingsley]

Mercury and Saturn will do it Wayne.

cheers

kingsley

[Nexus7]

I had a feeling that somone else with a Sun in Pisces square Neptune would pipe up and say they were nothing like the young man I once encountered. Just to emphasise again that this is where 'level' can and does make a difference. Unfortunately I don't remember what other aspects this particular person had in his chart. He had a Virgo rising and a Taurus Moon, his moon not seeming to receive much in the way of horrendous afflictions.

He did come for a reading, saying that he and his wife wanted to stay together sand bring up their baby, but I got the sense that they all felt a little trapped. Eventually, I learnt that he had left his wife and child for an oder, much richer woman.

He had been in the habit of cutting his wrists from the age of 11. I am sure that this is just about the less fortunate ways that Pisces can manifest, as he reminded me a lot of someone else I once encountered, and for whom I did a reading against my better instincts (I also did tarot at the time).

She had a Pisces Moon caught up on the opposition to Saturn opposing the Uranus/Pluto. She showed me scars where she had slashed herself. She tried (unsuccessfuly) to steal from me too and later I read that she had been convicted for shoplifting.

With situations like this, it is more a matter of becoming sadder and wiser and getting a better sense of whaT you cannot do for other people and possibly too, who not to read for.

In other situations, here could be other configurations that might be the red flags waving. I do also remember one article that showeed up charts for both mafia dons and the cops that stalked them. Interesting here, it was virtually impossible to differentiate from the charts alone who was a don and who a cop.

[smilingsteph]

I can be deceptive myself, not to hurt others, but when I am telling stories or I am stuck in a situation I can easily whip up some story and get out of things...I am pretty good at telling lies, not that I am proud to say this..
I had to lie for my mother when she was too drunk to go to work at the age of 7 or 8, had to call in for her...
Had to lie so that no one would want to come over to my house to see the way we lived
Had to lie when other family members asked about if my parents were drinking
Had to lie, about chores to avoid getting either verbally abused or sometimes physically abused, by my drunk uncle
So my basic life as a child was telling some sort of lie.....
I have turned this around into using it when telling stories, I can be very creative and expressive with it...
I still catch myself lying even when there is no need to lie....it is NEVER to hurt others....I just dont understand why I do it....
There is no doubt that neptune is the entitiy involved, no doubt...mine is near the MC....so lying to get people to like me?
Well I think that neptune in the first near the ascendant:
They go out in the world being very sensitive, as if they take a step out of themselves and see others through a lens; acting as a medium of thoughts and feelings for others;
This also can include that these people are very easily manipulated or easily lied to...
So I do not agree with Neptune in the first is thought to be a liar....

[Nexus7]

I think that Pisces or Neptune energy can be among he most difficult to assess, in terms how they manifest and on what level. I don't think it is possible to decide that someone might be deceptive on the strength of a Sun in Pisces square Neptune or not. My red flags came from watching the way the person I mentioned behaved in the flesh after seeing his chart, not from drawing conclusions from looking at the chart alone. It was only by watching the person for a while, that I really got the measure of him. With a father like his (I spoke to him on the phone once, his state left little to the imagination), I don't think this lad had much of a role model. It is still a mystery for me how he grew up to become so self-seeking at bottom, however. That is what I was unable to fathom on first meeting him.

There is a book on midpoints by Charles Harvey and Mike Harding, where charts of individuals wih Neptune on the Sun/Moon midpoint are discussed at great length. Examples included someone who was a pioneer in filming creatures under the sea, a mystic chaneller, a narcotics gangster, an artist, a forger of artists and a singer.

[wayne penner]

I sometimes wonder if deception also has to do with the rising sign and it's relationship to the 12th house.

The rising sign is the filter through which we view the world as well as express ourselves. If the Ascending degree is afflicted by Saturn or Neptune, or if the ruling planet is afflicted and has any relation to the 12th or the 12th house ruler I would expect some degree of deception according to the nature of the aspect. Also, the 8th, as the house of secrets should be involved. Obviously Mercury would be involved in all cases of deceptiveness.

A few examples of great deceivers:

Bill Clinton's 12th is ruled by Mercury, which conjoins Saturn.

Adolf Hitler has Neptune in the 8th and Saturn severely afflicting the Ascendant ruler Venus. Uranus is in the 12th opposite Mercury.

George W Bush has Sun in 12th square the ruler of the 12th, Luna. Neptune on the cusp of the 3rd and Pisces rules the 8th.

I haven't researched this so I just put this forward as an idea.

[gaer]

While Neptune is often deceptive, it is more often self-deceptive than actually evil. An afflicted Saturn is more serious and can indicate a person capable of active deception.

I find it very difficult to isolate factors. For instance, last night as I spent a great deal of time looking at Mercury and Uranus square and in opposition, I was either lucky or I was looking in the right direction. For instance, in composers, I looked for people who were geniuses, who were known for breaking rules and looking ahead, and of course for those who are admired for the expressiveness of their music.

One example of this would be Bela Bartok, who turned the world more or less on end with his combination of folk songs, dissonance (tonal) and new ideas. So it's not surprising that he is yet again another perso with Mercury opposite Uranus. But where is Neptune? Sextile Mercury, trine Uranus. I think in art, in comedy and even in invention, along with brilliance of mind, you also need intuition, and the greatest ideas often seem to come from nowhere. I have woken up with music in my head, struggling to write it down before I forget it.

For the same reason, I think (as in all the things we talk about) there are multiple things to look at for deception.

It takes imagination to lie, at least in a convincing manner. I would link that to Neptune (among other things). But it takes a plan too, so that would at least involve Mercury—and other factors that show a sharp mind. It all has to work, which takes a strange kind of discipline. So throw in Saturn, for holding it all together. This would just skim the surface, and as always it's useless to begin without looking at the whole chart.

There is active and passive deception, the former is a conscious act in order to coerce another, usually for a criminal purpose, the second is complicated by vanity and self-approbation and is often harmless, as are the exaggerations of an afflicted Jupiter.

I agree. When people literally do not know when they are stating a fact, exaggerating a bit or totally making things up, I'd look perhaps for a combination of hard aspects to Jupiter and Neptune, but again that is a simplification.

Saturn is more important than Neptune when it comes to deception.
I'm open to any theories here, because I have not know liars personally. However, one person I personally think is a liar is Sarkozy.

He has Uranus/Jupiter conjunct, and that conjunction is inconjunct Mercury. Neptune is square that same conjunction, trine to Mercury. Finally Saturn is trine that same conjunction, square to Mercury. Finally, Pluto is opposite Mercury. And that only scratches the surface.

I did not even know who this man was when a friend of mine in France mentioned his name, but the moment I saw his chart, I told him that France would not be in good hands if he was elected. (I actually said a lot more, but I'll try to remain at least somewhat tactful in public.)

So I think his chart is an excellent example of someone who would like to be a dictator, who will lie whenever it suits him and may get away with it sometime, but who will eventually be his own downfall.

[wayne penner]

Gaer I don't know much about Sarkozy other than he has very good taste in women. Carla Bruni is hot.

However, yes any aspect or sign position that can inflate, will inflate. So all afflictions to Jupiter and Neptune will inflate the ego and cause more promises than deliverance. If you ever see Jupiter afflicted in a chart with some "fluff" (fluff is lots of Pisces or Fire, both are the foundations for the con man) you are dealing with con.

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

[gaer]

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.
I want to get back to this idea:

Bill Clinton's 12th is ruled by Mercury, which conjoins Saturn.

For me this is an excellent example of putting it together. Yes, Saturn is conjunct Mercury. But that conjunction is also sextile Neptune/Mars/AC, IF we can trust the BT given, always a problem.

To me the important thing is that Clinton has remained popular. I won't make any judgements about if this is a good or bad thing. But this is very different from Nixon, who who left office in total disgrace. And if George W. Bush retains any respect after he leaves office, I will be shocked.

I'll leave it to you and others to decide whether Clinton was more dishonest than most presidents—or just more successful at it.

If you compare him with Nixon, there we see Saturn trining Sun/Uranus and sextiling Neptune, which opposes the Sun.

This makes me wonder if we are not also dealing with the ability to SUCCESFULLY "manipulate the truth" without either getting caught or losing reputation—permanently. :)

[Kingsley]

all politicians lie dont they? At least hide their emotions and true thoughts. Is that Lying?

k

[4leafclovah]

Gaer I don't know much about Sarkozy other than he has very good taste in women. Carla Bruni is hot.

However, yes any aspect or sign position that can inflate, will inflate. So all afflictions to Jupiter and Neptune will inflate the ego and cause more promises than deliverance. If you ever see Jupiter afflicted in a chart with some "fluff" (fluff is lots of Pisces or Fire, both are the foundations for the con man) you are dealing with con.

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

What about Jupiter in Scorpio?

[4leafclovah]

Men generally have a harder time getting in touch with their emotions than women do, so for a male to have challenging aspects involving water signs I think could be more destructive than if a female were to have those same aspects. Of course a woman could integrate that energy the same way, but I don't see it happening as often as it does with men.

[wayne penner]

Gaer, Kingsley, good points, as I read between the lines ...

All those who attain any degree of power or authority are forced sometimes to be deceptive. I think I'm a pretty honest person, but at one point I managed about 1000 people and sometimes, when the company was planning changes, I was unable to tell anyone what I knew was going to happen, even though it would impact on some people tremendously.

Does deception include not saying or doing anything? Probably ...

Interesting area of discussion.

4leafclovah, Jupiter is happy in Scorpio, although if afflicted he becomes easily discontented and manipulative. I think Jupiter under affliction always inflates the ego.

[gaer]

Gaer, Kingsley, good points, as I read between the lines ...

All those who attain any degree of power or authority are forced sometimes to be deceptive. I think I'm a pretty honest person, but at one point I managed about 1000 people and sometimes, when the company was planning changes, I was unable to tell anyone what I knew was going to happen, even though it would impact on some people tremendously.

Sometimes people at a high level in government can legitimately say: "You don't want to know the truth. You can't HANDLE the truth."

I'm thinking of Jack Nicholson's lines. :)

There are situations in which being "honest" would result in widespread panic.

I'm thinking for instance of your Kennedy example. What would have happened had people known how close they were to being drawn into WWIII during the Cuban Missile Crisis? We had SOME idea of what was going on, but we found out most of it later.

I'm terribly skeptical. I don't think that honesty and politics mix. An honest politician is just another oxymoron to me.

On the other hand, I'm truly grateful not to have the responsiblity of running things. :)

Gaer

[gaer]

Sorry about that...I keep forgetting...

July 12, 1966 is the date.
That's always a terrible problem. If the day is 13 or above, it's okay.

If you check out December 7, 1966, you will see what I think is a very difficult chart.

So, now that I have the right date, I have more questions than answers.

First, I hope an AC of 17Can25 is correct.

There is a striking amount of water in this chart. 5 planets in water, 6 for those who count Chiron. Water AC, water MC.

Mercury makes not major aspects to any planet with an orb of 6 degrees set.

There is a square to Neptune, but it's over 8 degrees. I can't find anything in aspect to Mercury that is not more than 7 degrees. That's rather unusual.

Saturn is square to Mars, tight orb, but that's about it.

It does appear that Neptune makes many aspects, mostly trines and sextiles. The only hard aspect I see is the inconjunct to Venus.

Venus appears to have the most difficult aspects, square to MC, Pluto, Uranus, inconjunct Neptune, and it's in the 12th, along with Mars.

I would have guessed self-deception here. I would have guessed a person who would do do damage to self through illusion rather than damage to others. Can you safely give us any feedback about the KIND of lying or decption? Do you see it as deliberate, planned, malicious and successful?

Or does it backfire?

I have to admit this chart is a mystery to me. I feel blocked in trying to read it.

Gaer

[wayne penner]

Sometimes people at a high level in government can legitimately say: "You don't want to know the truth. You can't HANDLE the truth."

I'm thinking of Jack Nicholson's lines. :)

There are situations in which being "honest" would result in widespread panic.

I'm thinking for instance of your Kennedy example. What would have happened had people known how close they were to being drawn into WWIII during the Cuban Missile Crisis? We had SOME idea of what was going on, but we found out most of it later.

I'm terribly skeptical. I don't think that honesty and politics mix. An honest politician is just another oxymoron to me.

On the other hand, I'm truly grateful not to have the responsiblity of running things. :)

Gaer

Unfortunately, once people in power begin hiding the truth, it is just one step from hiding things, because they really need to be hidden, to hiding them because it becomes convenient and protects them from their own mistakes, from their greed, and from their foolishness.



Does deception include not saying or doing anything? Probably ...

Interesting area of discussion.

4leafclovah, Jupiter is happy in Scorpio, although if afflicted he becomes easily discontented and manipulative. I think Jupiter under affliction always inflates the ego.[/quote]

Gaer I prefer Jack Nicholson in the beautiful love story "As Good as it Gets", but in any case ...

Perhaps "deception" is too strong a word when it comes to power used in "favor" of the people or the organization, but then of course you run into the issue of which organization ... I am sure that in Nazi Germany in the 1930's many of the heroes of that state were considered great men, Hitler, Goering etc. although we see them as cruel tyrants.

We get into philosophical problems when we try to handle abstruse moral concepts - is it "good" that someone just won a Mercedes and "bad" when he drives it into a brick wall? Had he not won the thing in the first place he would be alive, but then would that be "good" that he was still alive if he was secretly a mass murderer?

The whole quality of "deception" as a concept is a very interesting and difficult area to discover, most certainly when it involves more than simply cheating on your lover ...

[gaer]

Gaer I prefer Jack Nicholson in the beautiful love story "As Good as it Gets", but in any case ...

I'd love to discuss him as an actor, but I don't want to get off topic!

Perhaps "deception" is too strong a word when it comes to power used in "favor" of the people or the organization, but then of course you run into the issue of which organization ... I am sure that in Nazi Germany in the 1930's many of the heroes of that state were considered great men, Hitler, Goering etc. although we see them as cruel tyrants.

This brings up another topic: do we ever get the truth about anything? Even after a long time has passed? I have no trouble dispising Hitler and company, same with Stalin and so many others.

However, those who are presented as the "good guys" often have skeletons in the closet. If you want to talk about "profiles in courage", where was JFK when McCarthy was in power? Seems he kept his idealism pretty much in the closet then. Was that political realism (no other choice because it was a battle he could not win) or cowardice?

I won't make that judgement. I will say that the leaders who are most true to their ideals are seldom reelected. John Adams is a good example. From all that I've read, he stuck to his principles as much as any of his contemporaries. That much honesty is poitical suicide. :)

We get into philosophical problems when we try to handle abstruse moral concepts - is it "good" that someone just won a Mercedes and "bad" when he drives it into a brick wall? Had he not won the thing in the first place he would be alive, but then would that be "good" that he was still alive if he was secretly a mass murderer?

I'd be more inclined to mention "does the end justify the means" as the central problem—which of course is one of those philsophical questions that has never been answered and never will be. :)

[wayne penner]

I'd love to discuss him as an actor, but I don't want to get off topic!

This brings up another topic: do we ever get the truth about anything? Even after a long time has passed? I have no trouble dispising Hitler and company, same with Stalin and so many others.

However, those who are presented as the "good guys" often have skeletons in the closet. If you want to talk about "profiles in courage", where was JFK when McCarthy was in power? Seems he kept his idealism pretty much in the closet then. Was that political realism (no other choice because it was a battle he could not win) or cowardice?

I won't make that judgement. I will say that the leaders who are most true to their ideals are seldom reelected. John Adams is a good example. From all that I've read, he stuck to his principles as much as any of his contemporaries. That much honesty is poitical suicide. :)

I'd be more inclined to mention "does the end justify the means" as the central problem—which of course is one of those philsophical questions that has never been answered and never will be. :)

Gaer we probably never do get to the true truth, the deep unyielding cold as liquid nitrogen truth, about anything at all. Maybe we don't really want to know as a deep deep secret part of each one of us doesn't believe we will ever die - few human beings are able to face their own impending demise rationally.

As humans we naturally hide everything we dislike about ourselves, and point out the foibles and faults in others that we have managed to identify in ourselves. "Always listen to what a man criticizes in others - those are his own faults" (I can't remember who said that).

So I suppose we are all deceptive in some way.

But it is a matter of degree. A woman wears a padded bra to a pick-up joint, a man pretends he's a millionaire so he can remove it later. They are both disappointed, and locked in an illusion, and maybe that is what it eventually all is, an illusion, so maybe it's Neptune after all ...

To me, John Lennon summed it all up in a few words ...

"Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see
Its getting hard to be someone, but it all works out
It doesnt matter much to me"

[lillyjgc]

Kizmet,
I set up the chart, (for *liar* Bremerhaven Germany)...hopefully correctly. Can you confirm that asc is 17.25 cancer? and that Jupiter is there on the Asc?
Thanx, Lillyjgc

[deanna]

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.
I can give an example of the cloudy waters of Neptune: I use to tell people that I owned a house when I use to rent. I did this mainly out of "me" wanting to believe this and not wanting to lie to someone for my benefit.

The question is also who benefits from the deception? If its both parties as in the example of the padded bra and fake millionaire man - then each party is happy so does it matter?

Sometimes the person who is receiving the deceit can benefit as well- i.e. happy thoughts for the fake millionaire man about the padded bra.

If the person doing the deception is for their benefit in order to manipulate at the “cost” of the other person then yes - that’s Saturn.

As for Bill Clinton – Who I voted for and like – he was just being a lawyer. Their creative thinking/rational/lies go with the territory.

[lillyjgc]

Hi folks,
Gaer said *There are some occasions when knowing the truth could cause widespread panic* and *.....people cant handle the truth*....

I think its a shame that as a society we have come to accept these parameters. Having been lied to my whole life (!) I have a real aversion to deception....the with holding of information is abhorrent to me. Of COURSE people can handle the truth- they have just effectively been deceived by authorities into believing that *what you don't know won't hurt you*....theres just no acceptable excuse to me for anyone to lie-about anything.
As for wearing padded bras to pick-up joints-wouldnt know-havent been to a pick up joint....but those deceptions count to me too- (no padded bras in my closet!) and the world would definitely be a better place if people told the truth straight-up to one another....
Honestly.
Lillyjgc

[wayne penner]

If we were going to get really structual about this we deceive other people all the time, and ourselves.

What woman walks out the door without being caked in make-up? Isn't that deceptive?

Nothing against women, but this is a really difficult area if you want to be strictly scientific, which of course we really should be.

Guys pretend all the time, deceive women all the time, although the women know it usually. Young guys lie about their, um, "dimensions" and try to impress with money or cars, while old guys like me try to impress women by not falling over into the cheese section at the grocery store.

It's definitely a grand world. But we probably all deceive, ourselves and everyone around us.

[Liquid Green]

Hi folks,
Gaer said *There are some occasions when knowing the truth could cause widespread panic* and *.....people cant handle the truth*....

I think its a shame that as a society we have come to accept these parameters. Having been lied to my whole life (!) I have a real aversion to deception....the with holding of information is abhorrent to me. Of COURSE people can handle the truth- they have just effectively been deceived by authorities into believing that *what you don't know won't hurt you*....theres just no acceptable excuse to me for anyone to lie-about anything.
As for wearing padded bras to pick-up joints-wouldnt know-havent been to a pick up joint....but those deceptions count to me too- (no padded bras in my closet!) and the world would definitely be a better place if people told the truth straight-up to one another....
Honestly.
Lillyjgc

your a rare breed lilly......but one that should be carried on through time.
I believe in honesty,but am no saint, fear is one reason i have lied in the past.....
I dont go out of my way to hurt people , but will tell things straight up if asked. If you ask me, if you look fat in a dress and you do, im not gonna tell you that your a fat slob, but i am not going to tell you that you look great either.:)

no padded bras in my closet either:D.....what do ya do when you've been picked up! (those chicken fillets that women use also are dodgy....same goes for implants, and cosmetic surgery.....i mean who do these people think they are kidding!?)

[Natasha]

If we were going to get really structual about this we deceive other people all the time, and ourselves.
What woman walks out the door without being caked in make-up? Isn't that deceptive?
Nothing against women, but this is a really difficult area if you want to be strictly scientific, which of course we really should be.
Guys pretend all the time, deceive women all the time, although the women know it usually. Young guys lie about their, um, "dimensions" and try to impress with money or cars, while old guys like me try to impress women by not falling over into the cheese section at the grocery store.
It's definitely a grand world. But we probably all deceive, ourselves and everyone around us.
I think this a part of the Venus game played by all creatures when the mating season is on. heheheh - I think its pure Venus (Aphrodite) - remember how aphrodite owned a magic girdle that she put on to make herself the most desirable when she had the hots for someone.
I think all that is fun and a part of the love game & does not hurt the ordinary person. Maybe super sensitive triple pisces may feel deceived by lipstick or a padded bra but by the main.....

Deception to me is telling only part of the story or tell a midsleading or outright inaccurate story to mislead someone for personal gain be it to gain power or money etc.
Pluto can get in on the act here. Pluto Sun can tell a lie without the flicker of an eye if they think it will add to their power base.

To me deception is where a party is damaged in some way which reduces their options or happiness or financial position.
Sometimes Pluto Sun justifies it (probably with Jupiter) saying it was for the good of the person or society etc.
They are the worst to me. Families & marriages can get torn assunder by that kind of hubris.
Of course with hubris like that eventually one of the astrological gods knocks on the door and all is revealed. aka president nixon when saturn crossed his midheaven.

[lillyjgc]

Honesty is the basis on which justice works-its a fundament of society...I dont know where you go to *hang out* mr Penner but apparently the women are caked in make-up-sounds revolting to me.....(dont wear make-up either).
Sounds like an environment that attracts people who are involved in creating illusions...not my sort of place......
The act of deception is one of disrespect for the other person- deceiving someone gives you power over them...however subtle, Whether it be the *turning a blind eye* type of deception, or the *sticking the head in the sand *type of deception, right up to deliberate misleading by omission or outright misrepresentation.
In a chart I'd be looking for aspects that involve the misuse of personal power-sun conjunct pluto for example.Mars square or opposite saturn might be another. But as Jupiter is the planet of the law and truth I would definitely look for even easy trine aspects to jupiter as well as nasty aspects...The worst liars I have met have been sagittarians.....by far the most, seconded by aries afflicted and cancer.The moon might trigger the telling of a lie.Its often a *spur of the moment thing*....
Obviously mercury will be in it too- as mercury is the trickster. If a person has low self esteem they might lie to cover that up- to create a false impression, in which case ascendant and house 2 would be involved.
Lying to acquire money might show up through H2-H8 planetary relationships..
Lying to get sex might show up in H5 (or 8).....
Void of course moon has appeared in the charts of a few liars in my files.
I doubt theres any real way to identify whether or not a person is the liar or the one lied to. I have mercury conjunct neptune in my tenth (reputation)...all my life i have believed lies and am very gullible in that way..From the pain that that has caused me I've learnt to TRULY value the truth and to despise the antisocial behaviour of lying.When people lie to me now, I cut them out of my life, pretty well instantly....I know where it leads.
Truly.
Lillyjgc

[gaer]

A point about honesty:

If people I don't trust ask me questions that I don't think deserve an answer, they will either get no answer or a lie.

And I'm very glad that we can't read minds!

I consider myself a very honest person, but I am also suspicious, skeptical and cautious—as well as idealistic.

I think the truth is precious and something that should only be shared with people who have earned the right to share it.

Gaer

Gaer

[Liquid Green]

in response to lillys comments, i would like to know if i would be seen as a liar/deceptive to anyone on the forum......

i have jupiter trine saturn.......jupiter sq mars(5 ish degree orb) and jupiter sq neptune(8 degree orb).............i ask becasue i really try not to lie....
I actually have a belief that it is like mask wearing....and doesnt help us see each other properly....i want people to see me as i am.....i need people to even look a bit below the surface with me....I want to see people as they are also. Seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, to go through life being deceptive......could miss out on loads.

what aspects would point to honesty?

[wayne penner]

Well I doubt there are any astrological aspects that would indicate "honesty".

Honesty, if it can even be defined is a moral choice, and changes according to your situation. For example, if you found yourself starving with no money would you steal a loaf of bread to stay alive? Of course you would, but would that be dishonest? Of course it would. Would you be dishonest? Of course not.

This debate is about moral choices, not astrology.

[Kingsley]

Good to see you posting Liquid. Have you managed to get some chocolate at the store yet? I know you have been hemmed in by the floods.

There ars some signs prone to being more open that others such as Aries sun types however some people also have an issue with being too honest or open. Jupiter does represent the truth in some cases however like deception there is a need to accept certain pin pointing limitations of astrolgy.

I would just like to say thankyou for those who have read my blog in the last month or so. There seems to be a dramatic number of 'hits' to the site and thats nice to know its being read by my fellow astrologers.

best
Kingsley

[Liquid Green]

Well I doubt there are any astrological aspects that would indicate "honesty".

Honesty, if it can even be defined is a moral choice, and changes according to your situation. For example, if you found yourself starving with no money would you steal a loaf of bread to stay alive? Of course you would, but would that be dishonest? Of course it would. Would you be dishonest? Of course not.

This debate is about moral choices, not astrology.

hope your not having a dig at the Aussie convinct history, and the first settlers that stole loaves of bread, to get themselves shipped to this fantastic country, now wayne........................:D

[lillyjgc]

Well, I think positive aspects to Saturn might reflect honesty...honesty is about *social responsibility*, *reputation*, *how one is regarded....so I would look for aspects that produce a strong character. As we have seen, trines involving jupiter do not NECESSARILY reflect integrity or honesty but jupiter square mercury keeps coming up in the charts of people I have known to be *habitually* dishonest. Yes *everybody lies*, but some make it their modus operandi and I think its the latter we are discussing really.
its probably easier to see lying in a chart than it is to see honesty!

As I have just experienced being lied to in a big way I looked at the chart of the deceiver-her transiting pluto was cj her mercury/neptune at the time the deception took place.Transiting chiron/merc conjunction was semi-square the mercury/Neptune/Pluto!!!!!From her h10 to her H9....Her sun sign is sagittarius.Her asc is Aries.....Undoubtedly her reputation will be adversely affected.
The reason I see for *not lying* is that I believe *what goes around, comes around*...nobody likes to be lied to-its humiliating and demeaning.
Cheers,
lillyjgc

[gaer]

in response to lillys comments, i would like to know if i would be seen as a liar/deceptive to anyone on the forum......

LG,

If I saw your chart and knew nothing about you, I would make some guesses. Please bear in mind that these would be guesses only.

I never tell people "who they are" by using their charts as "proof" that my guesses are correct. In the forum itself, where I am especially careful, I ask questions. Then if the person I'm talking to confirms my hunches, great. If not, I'm going to keep an open mind. It's possible I that I've missed the boat, so to speak.

People have attempted to read my chart and have given me "advice" that has been so far off the mark, I just laughed.

So here are my astrological assumptions. You can confirm or set me straight. When two planets such as Mercury and Venus are in very close conjunction, I think of their energies as "fused together". By this I mean that it is very hard to separate them. In my case, with Sun/Neptune/Moon all in Libra, it's really hard for me to separate the energies represented by those three planets, all in the same house and sign, all conjunct.

This represents two opposite things, both true: I have a potentally HUGE capacity for self-deception, and I've had to live through several hard wake-up calls to get beyond that. I believe that happened before or by my first saturn return. (My second is just ending now, with Saturn Rx moving backwards to with a few minutes of another conjunction to my natal Saturn by transit.)

So I can lie to myself, or deceive myself by not seeing what I do not wish to see. Call that one giant pair of rose-colored glasses.

The flip side of this is incredible idealism. I was a wide-eyed kid who believe the best of everyone and was horrified by any kind of cruelty, violence, etc.

Am I liar? I definitely don't think so. Have I deceived myself in the past? Most definitely.

In my opinion, Neptune aspects, even supposedly easy ones, tend to make us more idealistic, and that can easily lead to escape of all kinds. Thus the link between Neptune and drugs. The idea is that people who are tremendously sensitized to the harshness of the world often try to use chemicals/alcohol to make it go away, to forget, to ease the hurt.

Does this mean that all people with Neptune prominent have substance abuse problems? Obviously not.

So, you have Mercury/Venus right on the AC. I see all those things as fused together, into one thing. To a great extent, I read that to mean that you are very much as you appear. Is that good or bad? Again, only you can judge.

But I would be shocked to find out that with those planets on the AC, sextile Neptune/NN, that you are not a rather idealistic person who is (or has been) hurt by the world as it is, rather than very comfortable with the world as it is.

This is certainly true for me. Neptune is a double-edged sword for just that reason. There is always compassion/escape, idealism/self-deception, illumination/delusion. It cuts both ways.

I would start there. For me, seeing the world as it is (the hard facts, the disappointing, cruel side of life) is very difficult, but it has been necessary to accept. I really don't do a very good job of it, but I cope. :)

I'll let you decide if there is any truth in this for you too.

Gaer

[Liquid Green]

yeh, i think your very right to a point.....i am someone who doesnt appear to be anything other than i am.....i dont see the point.....
wishful thinking has diasappointed me in the past....i like truth....its a good place to work from....but i also fear that my being who i am can get me in trouble.....with others ideals of who iam supposed to be.....if you can get what i am saying.......i dont want any trouble in my life.....just like everyone else

[gaer]

yeh, i think your very right to a point.....i am someone who doesnt appear to be anything other than i am.....i dont see the point.....

It's very different for me. With Virgo rising but no planets in Virgo and no planets in the 1st, people say I give a very negative impression when they meet me because I am very quiet and reserved. But not with people I know well.

wishful thinking has diasappointed me in the past....i like truth....its a good place to work from....

I hate lies. I never meant that I liked to be lied to. But it is also true that I have a very hard time accepting the world as it is. I always think about how it could be, if people were more intelligent, wiser, kinder…

but i also fear that my being who i am can get me in trouble.....with others ideals of who iam supposed to be.....if you can get what i am saying.......i dont want any trouble in my life.....just like everyone else
When I was young, I tried to adapt to what I thought other people wanted me to be. Or at least hid what did not fit their expectations.

I always admired people who didn't care about what other people think, although some go much too far in that direction. At this point I simply prefer to be alone rather than to be around anyone who does not like me as I am. :)

[Liquid Green]

I always think about how it could be, if people were more intelligent, wiser, kinder
me too.

At this point I simply prefer to be alone rather than to be around anyone who does not like me as I am.
i would prefer to be like this well aswell, but i guess i have the need now in my life to tow the line......my life is not only about me anymore, i have a son, so i do care what others think.....imagine what the world would be like if everone did what they wanted.........thats a bit off topic...but wanted to reply to what you have said.


I think self deception is a hard thing to avoid in society sometimes though...................for some reason that is more acceptable to others in this world than outright deception to others.............something for others to ponder

[gaer]

i would prefer to be like this well aswell, but i guess i have the need now in my life to tow the line......my life is not only about me anymore, i have a son, so i do care what others think.....imagine what the world would be like if everone did what they wanted.........thats a bit off topic...but wanted to reply to what you have said.

For me there are three groups of people:

1) Family and close friends, people I have some degree of intimacy with.
2) People I have to deal with socially, in some way, but that's all. That would include some of the people I work with, people I have to interact with in stores, people I have to deal with in business.
3) People who I do not have to be around unless I choose to.

I care a great deal what the people in the first group think about me. That includes, by the way, some of the people I've met in this forum.

In the second group, for that most part I care about getting what I want. Being nice is to my advantage, but I don't have to like these people. My thoughts are my own, and I actually prefer that they not know too much about me.

In the third group, I prefer to be pleasant. That's all. :)

Gaer


I think self deception is a hard thing to avoid in society sometimes though...................for some reason that is more acceptable to others in this world than outright deception to others.............something for others to ponder[/quote]

[Kingsley]

You can't help denial in personality, if we knew everything about ourselves all at once it would probably kill us. Its ok to genuinely "deceive" self however that might be, thats what creates the magical process of adventure in life.

kingsley

[Natasha]

You can't help denial in personality, if we knew everything about ourselves all at once it would probably kill us. Its ok to genuinely "deceive" self however that might be, thats what creates the magical process of adventure in life. kingsley
SO true. It is said that we often project our shadow (and sometimes our gold) onto others. As we grow and evolve we take back parts of ourselves.

It has been said that truth is also the interpetation of the tellor and it sounds logical to me. My truth can be different to someone elses and a third version will give a different story.
I feel here we are talking about the 1st 7th polarity and to some extend the Aries Libra polarity.
The more set in concrete we are about THE truth the more we are judgmental - I guess (of ourselves & others)
As I said before justifiying behaviour because we see our truth as the RIGHT truth - can take us down a scary path.

[gaer]

Funnily enough I have Mercury in Pisces square Neptune and I don't fall for these scams although my mother has Mercury in Taurus opposite Neptune, and she sends off for these prizes, plus she is taken in very easily to give money to people.

You have the Neptune square to Mercury/Moon. I have the conjunction to Sun/Moon. There are lots of differences, but we both have some "hard" Neptune aspects.

But that same conjunction is also trine to Uranus. Mercury trine Uranus is good for intuition. I have that aspect, and I think it helps me see through scams and tricks. I also think Saturn opposite Sun, in spite of the many negative things I have read about it, makes people cautious. So as usual we have to look at many factors.

What do you think balances with your Neptune aspects to protect you from being overly gullible?

Is honesty always the best policy, in some cases yes, but I will lie rather than hurt someones feelings at times, I think the world would be too brutally honest without Neptune. Some of us enjoy the illusion. :D

The line between tact and deception is a very fine line indeed!

The charts I have looked at of people who have been deceptive have had a full 12th house with Neptune in there aspecting personal planets.

I have not been close to liars, not since I was very young, and at that time I had no charts to look at.

I had one friend who had incredibly awful judgement and apparently could not tell the difference between "his truth" and anyone else's. He used people over and over again, always believing he was owed help and money—and he rarely if ever paid anyone back. He could also be very generous too, so it was a mixture, but his lack of self-honesty eventually made it impossible for me to remain friends with him.

He had Neptune right on the MC opposite Jupiter, and Mars/Uranus conjunct formed square to both ends, a T-square with Mars, Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune. I may post the chart at some other time. It's a classic case of someone out of touch with reality, someone who could not tell the difference between exaggeration and lying. The person he hurt most was himself.

Gaer

[lillyjgc]

Gaer,
*The person he hurt most was himself*
I think this is true of all liars- when you lie you feel *bad* about yourself-thats why I think lying has a lot to do with self-esteem....hence-houses 1 and 2...The *worse* one feels about oneself,the easier it is to continue the lying pattern...
I used to have a sag friend with very heavy aspects in her chart- I say *used to* because her lies caused other people pain so I ended the friendship, after * putting up with her lies* for over 16 years. Most of her lies involved her addictive and compulsive behaviour- lying to get money for drugs/alcohol and gambling. She lied to all her many partners, when she broke up with them she lied ABOUT them and the relationship.She *stalked* her ex for over 5 years.....a very dangerous and toxic person....
In her chart she has sun sag- jupiter in H2 opposite mars.Saturn in her H5 square both fortuna and pluto (in H2).Her mercury is right on h7 cusp inconjunct the moon in her first house (in Leo).....Uranus is in her first, square the MC and Neptune in her third....She is a pathological liar but almost all her lies are to conceal wrongdoings she has done.She doesnt care if her lying makes other people *look bad*-thats her intention much of the time, hence she looks *better than them*-these are classic signs of low self esteem. As I am gullible I used to believe her which caused a lot of problems in my life. Now, dont believe a word she says-although her lover totally trusts and believes her!!!(They ALL did!)...This lady has a grand square BUT also 5 trines......Even TALKING about liars makes me sick to my stomach.Looking at her chart affects me similarly.After I ended the friendship of course I became the subject of her lies.....again....Lies have a way of being revealed-in my mind, another deterrent! (But I do have a strong Saturn in my chart).
In the end, when people get caught up in a web of lies, the onus is on the *victim* of the lying to prove their credibility!!!(How unfair is that?).
Truth is the *reality upon which people agree*-liars mess with this reality and create doubts and confusions-Neptune's just GOTTA be in it somewhere!
Cheers, Lillyjgc

[gaer]

Gaer,
*The person he hurt most was himself*
I think this is true of all liars- when you lie you feel *bad* about yourself-thats why I think lying has a lot to do with self-esteem....hence-houses 1 and 2...The *worse* one feels about oneself,the easier it is to continue the lying pattern...

I agree if we are talking about people who do, in the end, hurt themselves. I won't get into the idea of karma, reincarnation, because then we might say that ultimately all people eventually pay for their lies.

But in this lifetime? I don't think so. I truly believe there are people who lie and cheat and get away with it, and I don't think they give a ****. Call them anything you want. My word is "sociopaths". They exist, and they prey on the rest of us whenever possible.

I used to have a sag friend with very heavy aspects in her chart- I say *used to* because her lies caused other people pain so I ended the friendship, after * putting up with her lies* for over 16 years.

Very similar to what I went through with the friend I mentioned.

Most of her lies involved her addictive and compulsive behaviour- lying to get money for drugs/alcohol and gambling.

Again, similar story for me.

She lied to all her many partners, when she broke up with them she lied ABOUT them and the relationship.She *stalked* her ex for over 5 years.....a very dangerous and toxic person....

The person I knew was less toxic to others and more toxic to himself.

As I am gullible I used to believe her which caused a lot of problems in my life. Now, dont believe a word she says-although her lover totally trusts and believes her!!!(They ALL did!)...This lady has a grand square BUT also 5 trines......Even TALKING about liars makes me sick to my stomach.Looking at her chart affects me similarly.

I haven't been gullibe since I was quite young, but people who cried "poor me" used to make me feel guilty when I would not bail them out. This particular person got into jackpot after jackpot financially, and I was too stupid to stop trying to help. I finally got wise a couple decades ago, or almost that long ago, and since then I have never allowed anyone to take advantage of me again that way.

The moment I find out that anyone is trying to play games with me, I'm gone. Can't STAND being played!

Gaer

[Kingsley]

I am liking the conversations Lilly, Gaer, Natasha and Ray. I feel hurt and angry when someone takes advantage of my good nature. It still happens to a degree within some professionals areas with competitive types. I can sense and hear it coming. I won't not be competitive to avoid such experiences however lessening the attraction to those types helps too.

kingsley

[Moulin]

How about scorpio rising conjunct neptune in 1st?

are they just private too or deceptive?

[gaer]

I am liking the conversations Lilly, Gaer, Natasha and Ray. I feel hurt and angry when someone takes advantage of my good nature. It still happens to a degree within some professionals areas with competitive types. I can sense and hear it coming. I won't not be competitive to avoid such experiences however lessening the attraction to those types helps too.

kingsley
I really like this: "however lessening the attraction to those types helps too."

We may not be aware of it, but to a great extent I believe we attract deceptive people into our lives. There is obviously a reason why some people are rarely deceived, while others are easily deceived. As I've stated elsewhere, I was sometimes an easy mark for deceptive people when I was young. I was extremely idealistic, and it's very hard to be that way with out being open to deception.

How about scorpio rising conjunct neptune in 1st?

are they just private too or deceptive?
I would not judge anything from that alone, though I do think that AC conjunct Neptune heightens idealism.

Gaer

[laliqueviolin]

A very secretively-intelligent friend of mine once told me the only way to attract truth-sayers is to become one. Truth beams brighter and encourages others to be a speaker of truth, since false preachers are un-enlightened, they don't carry the light within themselves until someone lits it for them.

It is also worth to note people who speak truth also wield power. Deceivers who cover the truth, no doubt, fear it's power. When deliberately hide the truth, it becomes an arrow, and it hones in on the scent like a fear, knowing exactly where to strike.

I thought his thoughts were quite symbolic, seeing how said friend was raised a pathological liar and has an afflicted Mercury in 12th Sagittarius. (He is now a speaker of truth :))

[wayne penner]

A very secretively-intelligent friend of mine once told me the only way to attract truth-sayers is to become one. Truth beams brighter and encourages others to be a speaker of truth, since false preachers are un-enlightened, they don't carry the light within themselves until someone lits it for them.

It is also worth to note people who speak truth also wield power. Deceivers who cover the truth, no doubt, fear it's power. When deliberately hide the truth, it becomes an arrow, and it hones in on the scent like a fear, knowing exactly where to strike.

I thought his thoughts were quite symbolic, seeing how said friend was raised a pathological liar and has an afflicted Mercury in 12th Sagittarius. (He is now a speaker of truth :))

As one with Mercury in 12th conjunct Neptune I know a little about the truth and how to lie. Mercury is in Libra sextile Mars/Pluto in Leo and Moon in Sag, square Jupiter in Capricorn in 3rd and all my life it has been a constant battle not to exaggerate, but I do not lie, although I always know when others are lieing.

I made a conscious decision many years ago not to lie to others, but then I noticed that people generally don't want to really know the truth. People prefer to stay in their own fantasies, something that Mercury in the 12th can immediately see.

Mercury in 12th is an expert liar. Allow me to bore you with a personal experience.

Some years ago on business I rented a Lincoln Town Car with tinted windows in Los Angeles. I managed to drive off the wrong exit from the I 5 and got lost in Compton, East LA. (Mercury Neptune Jupiter 3rd)

This is not a place you would take your sister on a dream vacation.

It was getting dark and I was the only White guy driving about in this big expensive white car in a very Black neighborhood where no one seemed to obey traffic signals.
I knew I had to ask directions - there weren't any cops about. I stopped at a bar, walked in, and I was the only White guy in a bar that had maybe 100 very tough-looking Black guys that did not look upon me with the love of a brother. If they had had a piano player he'd already stopped playing ...

Somewhere inside me I came up with an Australian accent, an Australian demeanor and a silly grinning attitude - " ello, mate, 'ow ya all diddlin' ... luv yer country cobber ... what's going on mate ... they got any Fosters beer in this pub?"

The Black dudes, who I am sure were about to kill me suddenly shifted in their attitude. A particularly mean-looking guy came up and said, "Where are you from?".

"Aussie mate, Melbun, on 'oliday. 'ow ya diddlin' mate ... want a Fosters? They got any bleedin' Fosters in 'ere? ****** nice country ya got this America ... want a beer mate?"

Well the result was I bought about six beers for some very serious-looking Black dudes, we all had a good time and a few laughs as I rambled on about Aussie (even though I had not been there yet) and they gave me directions on how to get back on the I 5

As I left, shaking all kinds of exotic handshakes with gangsta's the really mean-looking dude said, "Welcome to America man..."

Slightly deceptive but I'm still alive.

[IWDWSWLM]

I have found that people with Scorpio, Sag, Gemini, Pisces, and Virgo influences cna be pretty good liars.

Cancers and Tauruses in my opinion are the worst liars.

[DiDi]

MOULIN YOU SAID IT HUNNY... Haveing neptune conjunct asc even squaring the sun like myself.. is ludicrous and insulting to say one is deseptive.:(
In fact i couldnt lie to save my ???

a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

[NEFERINE]

Well I`ve got merc square neptune at my natal-chart My merc is i Pisces 5th house and Neptune in Sag 3rd house, conjuncted with Jupiter.

Of course i have sometimes even a bit too vivid imagination and i spend a lot of time in my dreamworld but what it comes to proven hard facts I really try to cope with them. My problem might be that i`m a bit too subtle, afraid to tell ppl how things are and what i really think about something (maybe even asc Libra affecs here) but i`m still looking for the truth and motives behind ppls acts.. But i always try to keep my promises and not to even promise if i know i might not be able to keep it.

And i have learned my lessons through a hard way not to believe on words until I see some action and that pp really are standing behind their words.
Yes, my merc square neptune makes me a bit naive and actually the object of all kinds of deception :( , even i really try not to get exploited by lies and things unsaid and undone.

But yes, mercury and neptune connections have some issues with truth, sometimes as the distractor or vice versa, being distracted.

[Hey]

You know who speaks the truth?

Me.

[Miss Saturn]

That's what they want you to think...

[aquarius7000]

I know a few people with Neptune in 1st conjunct asc and l can honestly say they are not deceptive!!..Anyone else agree? In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?
Yes, Moulin, I would be more inclined to agree with both your points than not. Nep alone in 1, without considering its sign/house/aspects, would give the quality of clairvoyance, tender-heartedness, makes one a dreamer, and, if Nep were in a hard aspect, could make one into an escapist or simply more gullible to believing those 'so-called' deceivers.

Firstly, deception is a very broad & subjective term that shares no common definition, except a negative connotation to itself.
Deception can in the far-fetched sense also mean, when I don't feel the same way about something and am more inclined to see/hear something in a particular 'my-idead' way, then every other view point would seem deceptive enough to me, as I just can't identify myself with it.

Anyways, I think, a simpler definition in terms of pure lies was the question on the thread, & in my opinion, it has little to do, if at all anything, with Neptune's placement in 1 or 12 or anywhere else. All Nep does, in the worst case scenario, is cause elusiveness and confusion of thought or speech (I address here the Nep-Mer squares / hard aspects). Take the simple eg. of Nep square Venus in a natal-chart (such as mine), it makes the native see the world through rose-coloured glasses when it comes to inter-personal relationships/ perhaps money matters, too (simply because it makes one feel more comfortable this way, than seeing the harsh realities).

Also, most importantly, a natal chart certainly carries no stamp of deception etc. It would be like trying to find out from a chart whether it's a male's or a female's chart you were looking at.

To answer the question really asked on this thread:
If at all, there could be certain aspects to show more of a pre-disposition to a certain trait. And yes, here Nep-square-Mercury might give the native the trait of eluding the truth, but does that equate to telling a lie, or, worse still, outrightly deceiving others. The motivation to do so (ie deceiving), let us not forget, more than often comes from outside. So, any aspects, to name a few, would certainly include hard aspects of Neptune/ house 12 and its/their connection to other planets. How harshly these hard aspects might manifest themselves in the native's chart can only be answered by considering many other aspects, which might be the motivation in activating the already-dicussed aspects of Neptune.

Some egs. in this connection would be a) a malefied Venus or 7th house, which would make the native more prone to disappointing/unfulfilling relationships, thereby, as a result, 'motivating' this native, rather his Neptune configuration, to escape into his own fantasy world, and 'deceive' not only others, but himself too by drawing happiness & fulfillment from his fantasy-world rather than the real, but painful world (for him at least).
b) an afflicted Pluto will again predispose the individual to power-struggles, either through his struggle for power or having to submit to power-struggles from the outside. Now this native, with also a tight aspect of Neptune, will be motivated to put his powers to 'mal' use, by let us say being an opportunist and hiding the real picture/truth, and thereby gaining from the circumstance. So here again, this form of deception, if you so like, is not the sole-doing of Neptune, but also other harsh aspects of certain planets.
I guess, that is why, it is too immature, even dangerous to study just one aspect/planet by itself and 'disconnected', as there is always something happening in each of those 12 houses, and there are many forces simultaneously at work. Agree though, that there has to be some gereralisation of qualities which are attached more to a certain planet/house, and less/not at all to another. After all, we have to start on some basis, don't we?

//aquarius7000

[Neptune Rising]

Neptune on Ascendant I think makes me see-through. I can't tells lies to anyone, especially to people who know me well, I'm sure they see straight through me. And I cannot bear to see anyone in pain, emotional or physical, I will do anything to help. This could be because there are few boundaries between the Neptune person and the other, so bringing empathy. They feel what the other person feels. I have Neptune on Ascendant square Moon in Pisces.

I associate Neptune with soft heartedness, compassion, empathy, self sacrifice, definately psychic or extra sensitiveness. Wisdom and experience have given a more acute radar to situations where I can be gullible, but still fall for it sometimes.:p

NR

[NeptuneAscendant]

Deception can be symbolized by:

- Negative aspects between the Sun and the Moon
- Negative aspects between the Sun and Neptunr

Both of these are strengthened if the person has a Pisces Sun, Pisces Moon, or Pisces Ascendant.

[Moulin]

Yay! i am learning something :D

Didi and Aquarius7000 - yes, l see the AC as more expression and neptune there is simply a creativeness that uses the AC as a vehicle to express itself. I think it's a highly creative aspect.

Now... my ex husband is one deceptive %^&&%$£$^% who took me for everything l was worth :( !!! If you want, i'll post his chart and you can pick it to pieces :D

[Neptune Rising]

Deception can be symbolized by:

- Negative aspects between the Sun and the Moon
- Negative aspects between the Sun and Neptunr

Both of these are strengthened if the person has a Pisces Sun, Pisces Moon, or Pisces Ascendant.

Well my Sun is semi-square to Neptune, and I have a Pisces Moon. ;) How will this show deception?

Thanks :)
NR

[laurableue]

I'm always deceiving people by making empty promises that come out as "lies" since they are never achieved because i have problems limiting my abilities.
("sun square neptune") I either think I am a worthless piece of junk one day and end up thinking of myself as the savior of the world the other. Then there is my neptune square ascendant. I am always fooled by people and people alway stare at me with a baffled look when they feel "deceived" because I am not the person their first impressioon indicated. They have such high opinions of me and I can't tell you the number of times i've heard "you dissapointed/deceived me". It's not on purpose...I don't know where they get their unrealastic hopes of me, I'm just normal and they expect the world!
Do other neptune square ascendant get "falsly" idolized like this?

[blueheron]

Mars/Mercury conjunction always puts me on alert... tends to lie.

[Caprising]

As one with Mercury in 12th conjunct Neptune I know a little about the truth and how to lie. Mercury is in Libra sextile Mars/Pluto in Leo and Moon in Sag, square Jupiter in Capricorn in 3rd and all my life it has been a constant battle not to exaggerate, but I do not lie, although I always know when others are lieing.

I made a conscious decision many years ago not to lie to others, but then I noticed that people generally don't want to really know the truth. People prefer to stay in their own fantasies, something that Mercury in the 12th can immediately see.

Mercury in 12th is an expert liar. Allow me to bore you with a personal experience.

Some years ago on business I rented a Lincoln Town Car with tinted windows in Los Angeles. I managed to drive off the wrong exit from the I 5 and got lost in Compton, East LA. (Mercury Neptune Jupiter 3rd)

This is not a place you would take your sister on a dream vacation.

It was getting dark and I was the only White guy driving about in this big expensive white car in a very Black neighborhood where no one seemed to obey traffic signals.
I knew I had to ask directions - there weren't any cops about. I stopped at a bar, walked in, and I was the only White guy in a bar that had maybe 100 very tough-looking Black guys that did not look upon me with the love of a brother. If they had had a piano player he'd already stopped playing ...

Somewhere inside me I came up with an Australian accent, an Australian demeanor and a silly grinning attitude - " ello, mate, 'ow ya all diddlin' ... luv yer country cobber ... what's going on mate ... they got any Fosters beer in this pub?"

The Black dudes, who I am sure were about to kill me suddenly shifted in their attitude. A particularly mean-looking guy came up and said, "Where are you from?".

"Aussie mate, Melbun, on 'oliday. 'ow ya diddlin' mate ... want a Fosters? They got any bleedin' Fosters in 'ere? ****** nice country ya got this America ... want a beer mate?"

Well the result was I bought about six beers for some very serious-looking Black dudes, we all had a good time and a few laughs as I rambled on about Aussie (even though I had not been there yet) and they gave me directions on how to get back on the I 5

As I left, shaking all kinds of exotic handshakes with gangsta's the really mean-looking dude said, "Welcome to America man..."

Slightly deceptive but I'm still alive. What a classic escape!! Having cap. rising (serious/cautious) with a 9th house merc in virgo, I would have been mugged by 5 of the meanest people there, and I DO have an australian accent!! :) But then I wouldn't have gotten lost in the first place cobber;) . One of my friends has neptune in scorp in her first house, with libra rising, and if you ask her how many boyfriends she has had, she will swear that it's around the 6 or 7 mark now, while the truth is more like 60 or 70!!. If I try to question her on this, her mars conjunct mercury and jupiter want to kill me!! So I just let her think what she wants to think! I believe that there is a time to tell a white lie, and a time not to, as wayne pointed out!

[tsquare]

This chart may surprise people....the greatest liar I have ever met, and I believe will meet.
My name for him is Satan.
We do not get along, have been life long enemies, and are intimately related, we share the same blood.
It goes beyond simple family issues.
This person has attempted to blackmail me, and also he has attempted to frame me, more then once, 3 times, all with crimes that carry lengthy sentences....there is of course more there, but those were very serious offences I had to burdon.
As far as my luck goes it ends up with me getting out alive, and free, but barely...and not unharmed, with much of my life and future in shambles.
Stuck in battles I would rather not be a part of, tying up my time and resources in defense, when would rather just move on.
He uses his finances, and power to tie people up so they are ruined, then in the end looses, but everyone looses, and he still comes out a "winner" money in the bank, large log house, new cars, he has an amazing carrer, but I would never do the things he has done to get there...I do not believe he enjoys any of it, and the smile is plastered on thick....no matter how believeable..

And what pretty aspects he has......so smooth he barely notices...
Thankfully I have set up a defense that no court could ignore and I expect another attack soon....all I have to do is make my next move, as anyone would do, and there will be an attack....he is predicatable in that way...best is he has no idea what I am up to and he is oooo so curious.
I am up to revealing the truth...how dangerous I am.
It begins soon.....unless he has decided it is a waste of his time, (which it is)...yet I doubt it.

This is the chart of my father.
Thankfully this will be all over soon, but it has made my heart heavy, I have given him so many chances to improve upon himself, even at sacrifice to myself(which was foolish), I have seen no change......the game is up, it's over soon...I play all my cards....I have alot of cards to play, everything is documented should things go that far....again...It doesn't always work to just throw the whole kitchen sink at someone in court to see if something would stick...he tried that on me and nothing stuck....he made it all up...his lawyer tried to stop him, the district attorney tried to stop him knowing it was all fabricated for none of the crimes I "had committed" were on any court records, how insane an attempt.....he did it anyway.....I had no idea what to think about that, now today I just do not, and feeling anything about it is out of the question. There is no hope in the situation ending up peacefully.
So...Instead of a kitchen sink to throw I have a toaster, and it will all stick....at least my stone hits the giant. And today the pocketbook is what you go for...it will be over soon.
In and out is what I want to do....then on with life, I have been tied up with this long enough...it won't happen again...and I don't want to be damaged by it any longer...I had to work real hard to get myself back together....I can be tough as nails when it comes to this stuff....but I can be soft as well....that took some time...to regain a light heart......I know how to do that quickly now...I've learned allot from this situation...but being told there is a reason for everything when confronted with completely insane situations just does not cut it.....after all, I could ahve been learning something more productive...something allot more fun....either way, knowing how to crawl out of hell at will is a good ability to have just a hard one to pick up..and a heavy lesson.

Heres the chart..nothing special.
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5827/fatherschartdj9.th.gif (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatherschartdj9.gif)

[blueheron]

Saturn opposite his combust Sun/Merc conjunction is about to be squared by transiting Uranus/Saturn opposition for a couple of years. Saturn/Sun people are almost always into controlling others, but he's going to get unpredictably out of control. only to get slapped down by transiting Saturn.

Sounds like he's pretty well brainwashed by materialism, which is typical for the Saturn/Sun combo... a way to stave off deep, probably past life, fear (Saturn.)

Neptune square his MC/Nadir axis shows professional deception, along with having the big trophy home.

The upcoming transit of Uranus opposite Saturn t-squaring his natal Sun/Merc conjunction will severely humble him down.

I feel for you on this one. My Dad.... well... I've been through it. Let him think he's "winning." He'll soon be wrestling with transiting Uranus and Saturn. Take care of yourself.

[Natasha]

Pluto Sun is a master at hiding how they really feel and think. Even if they are really angry they can hide it with a smiley face - then get you when your vunerable or they may plot an attempt at your downfall.
They are very unlikely to tell you their feelings and you may wonder why your Pluto Sun friend suddenly wants to have nothing to do with you. It can be over something fairly trivial in our eyes too. But Pluto Sun feels is their power is threatened in any way then its betrayal
I know several Pluto Sun folk and pretty much this is what I have found.

[Caprising]

T square.....did you ever consider that your father could be too ill equipped to function as a "normal" person? Maybe a move away to another town would break the assosiation. Cheers caprising.

[blueheron]

Pluto Sun is a master at hiding how they really feel and think. Even if they are really angry they can hide it with a smiley face - then get you when your vunerable or they may plot an attempt at your downfall.
They are very unlikely to tell you their feelings and you may wonder why your Pluto Sun friend suddenly wants to have nothing to do with you. It can be over something fairly trivial in our eyes too. But Pluto Sun feels is their power is threatened in any way then its betrayal
I know several Pluto Sun folk and pretty much this is what I have found.

I know an exception to this rule. Me.

[gaer]

I know an exception to this rule. Me.
I assume Sun/Pluto here is referring only to the conjunction. Regardless, I think it's pointless to assume deception from only this one aspect. :)

[Moulin]

pluto is a master at that, i agree!!!

[star2858]

I think mercury square neptune can help with acting abilities too. I have this aspect and can act to get myself out of any situation.

[shwetarose]

neptune in first house depicts liar and cheater..

[Nate of the 12th]

neptune in first house depicts liar and cheater..
I know several people with Neptune in 1st and they aren't particularly deceptive, although they may be a bit confused ;)

[blueheron]

SO true. It is said that we often project our shadow (and sometimes our gold) onto others. As we grow and evolve we take back parts of ourselves.

It has been said that truth is also the interpetation of the tellor and it sounds logical to me. My truth can be different to someone elses and a third version will give a different story.
I feel here we are talking about the 1st 7th polarity and to some extend the Aries Libra polarity.
The more set in concrete we are about THE truth the more we are judgmental - I guess (of ourselves & others)
As I said before justifiying behaviour because we see our truth as the RIGHT truth - can take us down a scary path.

Thanks for the reminder. I too often forget about the projection of my "gold." Then become disappointed when the evidence glaringly contradicts the projection. :rolleyes:

I like to remind myself that we're each just a subset of infinite intelligence, and know practially nothing. We don't know the past life karmas, the present life karmas, nor the future ones. That's a good jugemental-nuke for me, and thought I'd share it. It's humbling, and it helps keep the judmental thoughts at bay.

[VENUS]

hey all,
i have encountered many liars in my life, but this by far is the worst one...not only has this person lied to me, and embaressed me etc (the list could go on) but his own family, and all the best friends around him...cheats the world pretty much...notice the talented libra rising with uranus smack dab on his asc...makes him very "originally talented." alsonotice the merc squ pluto...
his main drive was to find rich wives (mars in taurus) and succeeded...
notice the venus squ neptune...(which venus is also the ruler of his chart and asc)
uranus opp jupiter....i notice that people with jupiter in 7th find very comfortable relationships/marriages....but the deception is all over this chart...
and for some reason i find that strong cancer in charts that are afflicted (not all cancers, dont want to offend anyone because some of the best people i know have alot of cancer in their chart) they always do whatever it takes to get what they NEED....even if it means to ***** others....anyway here is the chart...ive erased the personal info....
oh, and notice how trans saturn will go over the natal moon in nov...maybe he will get sent back to his country :D (trans sat conjunct moon=unwanted trip =9th house)
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/pinkpoodle26/fucker.gif

[BobZemco]

neptune in first house depicts liar and cheater..

That's way off base.

Neptune in a natal chart, progressed chart or transit chart shows deception. The nature of the deception is dependent on the sign and aspects to Neptune. The deception could originate with the native, or it could be that the native is being deceived by others.

For example, Neptune in the 11th could be that the native is deceiving himself about his dreams and ambitions, or it could be that others are deceiving the native about his dreams and ambitions.

Neptune in the 1st House indicates a dreamer or fantasizer, or someone who is imaginative and creative, even artisitic. When there are easy aspects to Neptune or the Ascendant, sometimes the native dreams too much and never puts any plans into action. Challenging aspects to Neptune or the Ascendant often provide the drive, desire and motivation to follow through on their dreams and fantasies and bring them to fruition.

People with Neptune in the 1st House often don't see themselves as they really are (they're deceiving themselves). On the other hand, they may never let others see who they really are, and that often makes them mysterious or gives them some charisma. Again, it depends on the sign and aspects to Neptune and the Ascendant, as well as what planets are in the house ruled by Neptune.

To suggest that everyone with Neptune in the 1st is a liar or cheater is really bad astrology (which unfortunately is everywhere on the internet).

[dog8818]

A man I know very well has Neptune in Scorp. conjunct Asc. It squares a Leo Sun at the Midheaven and the Moon in Aquar. near the Nadir. I have never met a more gullible person in my life. He is a musician who wears dark glasses while playing guitar. He is adorably charasmatic and at the mercy of his need to be loved. He believes he is irredeemable on many levels, and I have watched his martyrdom tendencies and called him stoooopid to his face. He seems completely confounded by life. He has been kidnapped (carjacked and held hostage) and also twice has been held up at gunpoint while working in a restaurant. He has been married to a very deceptive woman (Nep. square Moon) and when she cheated on him, he cheated on her, and the young woman he shagged got... pregnant. And is having the baby. He claims he hates drama but his entire life is filled with it. He seems to be missing a "motivation chip" in that his wife has to absolutely instruct him on what to do with his life every step of the way. He is a lost soul and at the same time I believe he is a cultural icon because he seems to carry the collective energy of mesmerizing attraction and the inability we all have in seeing our own potential for the destructive undoing of our lives. I can't be around him very much because he invokes in me the desire to sit him down and tell him what to do with his life... which many people do, and he wants so badly to please them that he agrees and agrees, then proceeds to walk bewildered through life. I once told him to "remember who you are" and he looked at me as if I had antenna coming out of my head. He has been arrested for DUI and there is definitely a self-destructive element in him, but it comes more from a sense of guilt, remorse and martyrdom than anything else. His mother once said that "if something can happen to a person, then it will happen to him". I wish I could make him understand the implications of his Neptune on Asc., but I probably sound like a cartoon character to him. How does one explain to someone that they are a magnet for the mysterious?

Transiting Neptune came close to opposing his Venus, ruler of his 7th & 12th when his "indescretions" got him into trouble in September, and is back on the way to oppose his Venus proper, along with Chiron and Jupiter. If it weren't for my fascination for astrological field research, I don't think I could watch. :eek:

here is a gif of his chart, if I can manage the attachment correctly
3416

[Polo]

Would you classify someone as being deceptive if they didn't give you a clear picture of themselves?
As in, although they don't lie, they don't give you anything to go on.

[Claire19]

Neptune in the 1st, depending always on the aspects to the rest of the chart can mean deception regarding one's beginnings but also a feeling of being invisible, having fantasies and using one's imagination and perhaps even being in touch with the other worlds. It can give feet trouble, great sensitivity to the environment and a love of dance and all things glamourous. Sometimes these people photograph in an indistinct and ethereal way or have that aura around them.

Deception belongs to 12th house, 8th house and Scorpio and Pluto as well as Neptune and the 12th.

[Claire19]

Would you classify someone as being deceptive if they didn't give you a clear picture of themselves?


As in, although they don't lie, they don't give you anything to go on.
You mean lying by omission??? Sometimes these people dont have a clear picture of themselves either. :confused:

[Claire19]

I know a few people with Neptune in 1st conjunct asc and l can honestly say they are not deceptive!!

they are far more likely to be hoodwinked by another that hoodwink someone else!!!!

Anyone else agree?

In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?

Malice belongs to Pluto and Scorpio. Neptune and Pisces tend to be kind and compassionate and often victims due to their indiscriminate sense of charity and sympathy.

[Quetzlcoatl]

Yeh, I tend to go with the Neptune influence.

The past two women I dated were incredibly manipulative and pathological liars: Pam: 3/22/53 (Snake), and Lisa: 3/23/59 (Boar). Don't have birth times for either. I'm 2/1/58 (Rooster), 5:42 AM, Dayton, Ohio.

Both those girls had been raised primarily by very controlling, abusive fathers, and they basically grew up to behave like a stereotypical "guy": whatever they wanted to do was OK, and they would say or do anything to wiggle out of taking responsibility for their actions.

Another thing I noticed was that they were ALL concerned about every stray cat or low-life that needed help; but when it came to us and our relationship they were AOL: "you're on your own, boy".

Fear seems to be a huge percentage in terms of explanation of their behavior: the cornered animal.

there sure are a lot of smart people on this site, and very kind and caring. I'm glad I stumbled across it.

[Astrologer4U]

I could not be sure of his 'level' then, but the red flags started to fly when he told me that two other people I knew had stolen CD's from him. I did not know much about their charts, but they just did not seem to be the type of people who would steal. Whereas he....

Later on, I noticed that one or two cassettes of mine had disappeared after visitng him, then he started to cadge from me.

The cassettes were not great los, but I found out that he had borrowed a great deal of money from one or two others and swindled another out of a good deal of merchandise.

On the positive side, Picses are great people and mean you no harm, but on the negative side, they are great foolers. They fool themselves first, and then they fool you. Almost every Piscean I know who is on the negative side, goes around saying what people have done to them, the poor me and victim syndrome. Next thing you know, they have robbed you blind and left you for dead. After it becomes obvious what they have done, you know, when the Neptune fog lifts, you confront them just for them to almost fool you again, making you think they could do no such thing to you. Afterwards, if you don't come from out of the haze they have left you, they have you going around thinking that you are crazy and that you probably just lost the best friend you could have ever counted on. Thank God for Astrology becuase after finding out about the Pisces, and observing them up close and personal, I don't fall into anymore of their traps.

[allie_b]

Playing the victim, doing the "pity poor me"? This is a red flag for personality disorders, especially BPD and HPD (PERSONALITY DISORDERS not SUN SIGN PISCES).

You don't have to have Pisces energy to have a personality disorder. They're fairly common (about 1/3 of the population).

Sorry, but you just can't brand Pisces solely, with this behavior.

:eek:
Gee, you know Lisa and Pam. You just described every Pisces I ever dated. I was just getting ready to go out with another one; but I think I'll just swear-off dating Pisceans FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!

[Astrologer4U]

Playing the victim, doing the "pity poor me"? This is a red flag for personality disorders, especially BPD and HPD (PERSONALITY DISORDERS not SUN SIGN PISCES).

You don't have to have Pisces energy to have a personality disorder. They're fairly common (about 1/3 of the population).

Sorry, but you just can't brand Pisces solely, with this behavior.


allie_b, we are talking Astrology here and I am sorry to say, on the negative side, Pisces do have the poor me victim issue. On the positive side, Pisces don't have the poor me victim issue, but they do have the savior sacrafice issue which in this lifte time, seeks to be balanced. Can't save them all so why turn into a sacraficial lamb in order to rescue those who don't want to be saved. Balanced Pisces are balanced and therefore lacking in the saverity of the above mentioned issues... poor me victim, and savior self sacraficial roles.

[astrologer50]

Well heres the chart of professional con man who lies to exhort money from women.....

Typically mercury conj neptune 1st house well hidden behind Scorpio Asc, gives nothing away, even from eyes....

Mars trine Jupiter, mars late 2nd conj 3rd. Saturn is square mars on wide orb, gemini moon in 8th house of other peoples money. Gemini/mutable moon gives ability to love more than one person at same time...

Sun libra conj asc, smoooooth talker, charming, fascinating, duplicitious
Neptune quincunxed moon from 1st to 8th

See what you think, it seems to embody all that has been said so far.

[Astrologer4U]

Well heres the chart of professional con man who lies to exhort money from women.....

Typically mercury conj neptune 1st house well hidden behind Scorpio Asc, gives nothing away, even from eyes....

Mars trine Jupiter, mars late 2nd conj 3rd. Saturn is square mars on wide orb, gemini moon in 8th house of other peoples money. Gemini/mutable moon gives ability to love more than one person at same time...

Sun libra conj asc, smoooooth talker, charming, fascinating, duplicitious
Neptune quincunxed moon from 1st to 8th

See what you think, it seems to embody all that has been said so far.


I think you are absolutely correct :D

[allie_b]

In order to be a good astrologer you have to have a good grasp on psychology.

Balanced people (not just Pisces) are balanced. Unbalanced people (including those Sun signs who have personality disorders) are unbalanced, needless to say.

My point is: it may be a stereotype of Pisces but it is not exclusive to Pisces. The dynamic of victimhood belongs to no particular Sun sign.


allie_b, we are talking Astrology here and I am sorry to say, on the negative side, Pisces do have the poor me victim issue. On the positive side, Pisces don't have the poor me victim issue, but they do have the savior sacrafice issue which in this lifte time, seeks to be balanced. Can't save them all so why turn into a sacraficial lamb in order to rescue those who don't want to be saved. Balanced Pisces are balanced and therefore lacking in the saverity of the above mentioned issues... poor me victim, and savior self sacraficial roles.

[astrologer50]

I would also view as suspicious mercury in pisces or mutable signs, and/ or mutable on Asc, mutable moons, espec 12th house.

Highest on list would be mercury/neptune (which i have heard is also rather good for mimicary & humour) acting the part if you like...

[Astrologer4U]

In order to be a good astrologer you have to have a good grasp on psychology.

Balanced people (not just Pisces) are balanced. Unbalanced people (including those Sun signs who have personality disorders) are unbalanced, needless to say.

My point is: it may be a stereotype of Pisces but it is not exclusive to Pisces. The dynamic of victimhood belongs to no particular Sun sign.


Bottom line, Poor me, Victim and Self Sacrafice, are Neptunian, Piscean traits... Weather it be the Sun Moon, Asc, 12th house or aspects to. That all came from the wise words of a good Astrologer. :D


Added: One more thing, a real rule to being a good Astrologer, is not to take things personally and to also learn how to accept the good, as well as the bad. If you don't accept, how else can you work towards positive change?

[StarNur]

I cant see someone with Neptune in the 1st having a "malicious intent".. Could be deceptive without realizing to a point...even deceiving themselves.

How about Neptune in the 3rd house of communication square Mercury Rx in Libra in the 12th house!! I know someone with this, and he lies like no tomorrow...he totally has people fooled, including his family. I dont think he lies to be malicious either, but possibly to cover up his low self confidence/image or less favourable traits?

[wildflowers]

Quetzlcoatl,

I just want to point out that what these two woman from your past have in common are actually:

Sun: Aries
Venus: Taurus

This would be an indicator of behaving more like the typical "guy" perhaps.
and lend to charging ahead with their own agenda foremost on their minds.

With the information you provided,
only one (Boar) has significant Neptune aspect to personal planets
with an opposition to Venus.
The other (Snake) does not.

Those who are manipulative, pathological liars who cannot take responsibility for their actions with the severity you seem to imply--
like someone else stated here--
those are traits associated with disorders.

Traits I wouldn't stereotypically ascribe to Aries, Taurus, Neptune....
you get the picture. that would just be bad astrology.

Yeh, I tend to go with the Neptune influence.

The past two women I dated were incredibly manipulative and pathological liars: Pam: 3/22/53 (Snake), and Lisa: 3/23/59 (Boar). Don't have birth times for either. I'm 2/1/58 (Rooster), 5:42 AM, Dayton, Ohio.

Both those girls had been raised primarily by very controlling, abusive fathers, and they basically grew up to behave like a stereotypical "guy": whatever they wanted to do was OK, and they would say or do anything to wiggle out of taking responsibility for their actions.

Another thing I noticed was that they were ALL concerned about every stray cat or low-life that needed help; but when it came to us and our relationship they were AOL: "you're on your own, boy".

Fear seems to be a huge percentage in terms of explanation of their behavior: the cornered animal.

there sure are a lot of smart people on this site, and very kind and caring. I'm glad I stumbled across it.

[Astrologer4U]

I cant see someone with Neptune in the 1st having a "malicious intent".. Could be deceptive without realizing to a point...even deceiving themselves.

How about Neptune in the 3rd house of communication square Mercury Rx in Libra in the 12th house!! I know someone with this, and he lies like no tomorrow...he totally has people fooled, including his family. I dont think he lies to be malicious either, but possibly to cover up his low self confidence/image or less favourable traits?


Good point but never the less, he is deceptive. There is nothing positive about being deceptive unless someone is holding you captive and you need to decieve your way out. If he has low self esteem issues, all of the energy he puts into decieving people, he should focus that energy towards building up his self esteem. It is malicious to make excuses for yourself, especially when you have not positively worked towards making positive change about your personal self image. In this case, he is the only one who is holding his self captive, no one else. The fish needs to come out of dream world and get back to reality, he needs to ground his self in reality and stop using escape methods.

[dreamtimez]

It's very different for me. With Virgo rising but no planets in Virgo and no planets in the 1st, people say I give a very negative impression when they meet me because I am very quiet and reserved. But not with people I know well.

I hate lies. I never meant that I liked to be lied to. But it is also true that I have a very hard time accepting the world as it is. I always think about how it could be, if people were more intelligent, wiser, kinder…

When I was young, I tried to adapt to what I thought other people wanted me to be. Or at least hid what did not fit their expectations.

I always admired people who didn't care about what other people think, although some go much too far in that direction. At this point I simply prefer to be alone rather than to be around anyone who does not like me as I am. :)



Hmm ... I could relate to that very well :)

[matter1022]

I was born with a very deceptive nature if I choose to use someones trust for my own means... I talk so much and always try to admit I'm not 100% sure about anything simply because people tend to agree more when you bring yourself down in front of them (admit any fault or wrongness works well too) The thing is, I tell the truth most of all the time so when I do lie, it glides through most all radars.. I will always try to lie with the truth when I can because the truth part sugar coats it...

Now, is it out of bad intentions, practical purposes of self-interest/protection, liking the sound of my voice.... I don't understand fully, or at least not all the time is it clear to me if my lies are real so in turn they become truth to me and I can project that through my eyes by thinking the word "love" while looking at someone.. (this also worked well when Id con my ex-girlfriend to leave 4 guys and come back to me, I really loved her but I used my con nature to my ends.... not hers).

Yeah, I am a novice of astrological jargon so I just wanted to throw some raw emotion out there about absolute guiltless lies that con people may or not believe as truth to just con even more..

have a nice day1

[IWDWSWLM]

I was born with a very deceptive nature if I choose to use someones trust for my own means... I talk so much and always try to admit I'm not 100% sure about anything simply because people tend to agree more when you bring yourself down in front of them (admit any fault or wrongness works well too) The thing is, I tell the truth most of all the time so when I do lie, it glides through most all radars.. I will always try to lie with the truth when I can because the truth part sugar coats it...

Now, is it out of bad intentions, practical purposes of self-interest/protection, liking the sound of my voice.... I don't understand fully, or at least not all the time is it clear to me if my lies are real so in turn they become truth to me and I can project that through my eyes by thinking the word "love" while looking at someone.. (this also worked well when Id con my ex-girlfriend to leave 4 guys and come back to me, I really loved her but I used my con nature to my ends.... not hers).

Yeah, I am a novice of astrological jargon so I just wanted to throw some raw emotion out there about absolute guiltless lies that con people may or not believe as truth to just con even more..

have a nice day1

That was actually a very informative post and I appreciate you sharing it.

I actually used to go out with someone who used to do exactly what you do. I rarely fell for it because I'm naturally a suspicious person, so I pick up small cues of deception very well.

But i must admit this person was very very good at the deception game. I also find it interesting that this person was a Scorpio.

[Astrodawn]

In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?

I agree Moulin, my sun has neptune conjunct asc exact and he seems to be very psychic, he reads me constantly and sometimes answers what Im thinking and has done this since being a baby (hes 12 now)

I wouldnt like to think he was going to be very gulliable - although again he shows signs of that too!

[matter1022]

Thank you.. I'm always glad to be able to share my thoughts & opinions with someone that will listen, regardless of their nature of what I say.. I actually believe honesty is the the best policy next to complete acceptance of what happens to me. Yet, I do use the trust people have in me (and let me know I have it) in deceitful ways under a variety of circumstances that range from justifiable to pointless...

1.) Revenge: If I actually feel so wronged, so shorted in a situation, then sadly to say their are no boundries to the amount of deception I will use to get their trust so I can betray it when it will hurt most or manipulate them to my amussment or benifit w/out them even knowing sometimes until I tell them. Guilt tripping is manipulation at iis most innocent because it comes natural to ask for what you feel is owed from being wronged (which feels like being stolen from). However, guilt tripping is also one of the most powerful uses of deception if you are good at communicating and transforming your thoughts into someone elses emotions; if done right it can cause someone to try really hard (and do almost anything in context) to repay the emotional debt to you which is real, exagerated or just maniputaion. In my mind, I've rationalized that I am returning the energy the gave to me by betraying my trust first (revenge is cause and effect) I wouldn't go way out of my way to hurt someone's feelings unless I thought they deserved it or wanted to teach them a lesson to make myself feel better or for entertainment.. When they show anger that is stereotypical and impulsive, it is them loosing their control and giving it to me.

"If someone can make you angry, you are letting them have power over you." - not sure where I heard this

2.) Giving the Upper-Hand: Sometimes I like to make it appear to someone they have an advatage of some kind, is more intellegent/skilled, or just reinforce an existing supiority complex of theirs. The reason for this is always to give myself the upper-hand and control in groups, competition or relationships (usually with strangers or a friend that has ego falling out of their mouth when they talk). By creating a push-over, vunrable, dumb or any kind of inferior perspective in the eyes of the beholder I'm dealing with I've had them reveal their intentions, bias & worries, disclose secrets, bad-mouth others, etc.. But usually its just to keep them assuming that they have me fiqured out, bested, outsmarted or are better than me somehow. This is what Lee Atwater called "Slow talking," If they choose to beleive/accept they some how have the upper-hand by assuming something about me which is false or misleading, an assumtion I gave them or reinforced, it is likely they can let their gaurd down and give me info like I said or in a competative situation (not always sports) they become more predictable and give me the chance to anticipate thier choices by making them think they know mine... I know that was probably way to wordy when I could have said "trap." But it's more than that to me, its like watching a blind folded person run into a tree because you told them to go thata-way. This is like playing chess or swordfighting (two things I like doing too). I don't do this often because it's just easier to be honest and butt-heads with someone than to play puppet master... So out of my own questionable morality, I only mind-scew someone for my entertainment or someone's need to feel in charge more than to only pull on over on someone... But I am guilty of using from time to time and am not always guiltless about it. I don't condone using people as a means to an end, only to return the energy given...

3.) Just Pointless: self-centered lies like white lies and excuses are what I am the most quilty of on a weekly basis. I guess its just my recreation from usually trying to tell the truth about my thougts and feelings and connect with people by accepting them no matter what.. When I am getting bored from a lack of conversation that has little interest on their end, I choose to slip fictional things just to see how they react to sometimes outlandish ideas or situations while talking about real events and feelings of similar natures or topics. No point but to work on improvising really. Finally there are excusses which in my eyes are the attempts to change the disaproval of someone I'm telling my excuse to into acceptance and sometimes sympathy if I am really trying to cover my ***... I usually tell the truth of what happened and accept that I am responsible for not doing what they wanted or was expecting even if I didn't want to hurt their feelings if I did.. When I want to change the convo in my favor I will use and sometimes exageraate every fact that supports me not having any fault in how I ended up in their disaproval or at their mercy.. I'll create a fake account of the same truth in question to make the one in disaproval identify strongly, reevaluate and agree how uncontrolable the event I was being held responsible for is. Simply put, I try to get someone to agree that what I'm saying is clearly not of my choice and unfortunate.. If I'm lucky, what was the disaproval of someone is now a mild bonding and acceptance of what I said (a lie) as an experience they relate with and forgive me for. My personal best excuse was when I got pulled over for swerving. I had been changing the CD and wasn't paying attention as I should have been. The officer asked the question which is aimed at the reason or observed truth of why the officer is talking to you... "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I apologized for the obvious swerving and near accident with a car in the next lane and said, "I started to sneeze in the turning lane.." I took the drunken breath test and was on my way without even a verbal warning.

So, astrology and how I attribute deception to it. Based on descriptions I really agree with strongly as being ever present personality traits of mine due to being born on Oct. 22 (...1986 at 8:56 P.M. New Ulm, MN... anyone is welcomed to help me use that info to learn more) I am a Libra-Scorpio Cusp.. I am a natural communicator with an accute awareness of the reality I observe and want as much as possible to to be the best at what I choose to apply my energy into. My emotions are super strong and obvious to me as the occur due to my mental apptitudes which will disagree with my intuativness sometimes and although I'm aware of the stuggle, choosing a course of action usually takes one of two paths I can't always see coming.. a dark and chaotic one or balanced loving one. So that being said, I choose deception as one option of two I have. The path of service to others and connecting with others (especially through dedicated romance of serious passion) is the path I like to try and occupy myself with simply because I like the golden rule as a way of life, its balanced. However, there is another path that I have always been interested in probing on and off since childhood which I now know as Via Combusta. I will burn through all of my life's craziness, which there has always been tons of, only to continue burning as trials and lessons shape my perspective everyday..

I love talking about how I experience life and in reality, I accept both paths as my path because only after accepting without any judgements of there being a good reality or bad reality can I truely consider myself accepting.. So as I continue to evaluate my reality and all that is apart of it Ill take the good with a slap in the face and the bad with lick of salt and just continue regardless, Via Combusta. Its just as positive as negative in my life, an idea to direct choice.

Have a nice day

[estrella]

I agree Moulin, my sun has neptune conjunct asc exact and he seems to be very psychic, he reads me constantly and sometimes answers what Im thinking and has done this since being a baby (hes 12 now)

I wouldnt like to think he was going to be very gulliable - although again he shows signs of that too!

I've seen Neptune manifest itself in varying ways. I know someone with Neptune conjunct ascendant in opposition to Jupiter on the cusp of the 7th- who is in no way a con person. She is very gullible though, especially with regard to her relationship.

I've seen Neptune in dicey aspect act as sort of a blind spot in the person's personality. In my friends case, her blind spot is her con-man husband that is milking her for every dime he can.

She is also interested in mysticism and the occult, and she is psychically sensitive to spirits-all things related to her Neptune rising.

[katydid]

I agree Moulin, my sun has neptune conjunct asc exact and he seems to be very psychic, he reads me constantly and sometimes answers what Im thinking and has done this since being a baby (hes 12 now)

I wouldnt like to think he was going to be very gulliable - although again he shows signs of that too!



He is very young still and his Neptune rising could be 'trained' in some good ways.[ studies in acting, singing, dance, drawing,painting]
Imo, neptune /asc people have a tremendous amount of 'nervous' psychic energy---it is like they are so tuned in that they literally vibrate, especially when they are adolescents. I think that is one reason neptune/asc types sometimes go off the rails during their hormonal teenage years. They look like they are being cool and laid back, when in essence they are so deeply tuned in to others psyches, that they get lost , overwhelmed or led astray.
They are the essence of vibrational healers without even knowing it.:cool:

[rogue_red]

What would be considered red flags in a chart if you were looking for signs of a deceptive individual? Neptune in the 1st could indicate deception, yes?
I am not talking about someone who tells little white lies, but someone who deceives with malicious intent.Any comments?

I wouldnt see neptune in the first as being the strongest indicator of deception and as lilly pointed out deception stems from a multitude of motivations. There are those who are blind to their ability to deceive others, some deceive only themselves. Neptune in 7th tends to be deceptive in their relationships with others and also has an unrealistic image of those they have affection for. Sun conjunct neptune has the ability to charm you out of your last dollar without necessarily even being aware that they are decieving you, they are the blind robbing the blind.
Neptune in first really struggles with their self identity and this can be seen by others as being deceptive but it isnt.
I cruelest and most deliberate deception would need a well placed neptune that doesnt weaken the native who bears it, a detatched moon, probably capricorn moon as it gives ambition and the ability to detatch and maybe a leo sun. Neptune would need to be in a harmonius aspect to mercury and a hard aspect to the asc.
Deliberate deception requires intelligence, creativity, charm and self centered/ambitious nature and emotional detatchment.

Rogue

[piscesascendant]

I can tell you (as a person whose Neptune rules his chart and is nearly square my ascendant), that those with a prominent Neptune tend to be the ones people try to manipulate and deceive, not the other way around. It's interesting that those with such a feature in their chart may get "flagged" as deceivers, when they are in fact the ones being deceived. I have a Aquarius Sun (truth seeker) and among the other parts to my chart, when I lay things down straight up, those who try to pull a fast one on me realizing "their game" is up, tend to get either nervous or angry and walk away bitterly. Interestingly, I was told by my last professional astrologer, "You have a b.s. detector like nobody's business!"

As far as true deception goes, it would probably depend on the aspects to their Neptune, but Neptune in and of itself does not qualify for deceiving.

[marja]

I am new to astrology. I read my chart. Do you think your chart really reveals your personality? Are all the statements usually true?

[piscesascendant]

Not sure if you're speaking to me or in general. I find that astrology provides the "archetypes" of life, but within those ballparks, anything is possible. It seems the majority of people assume astrology is fatalistic, "written in the stars", which can seem pleasant if your chart is favorable, a not so much if it isn't. I've also found that many people are actually afraid of it. In my opinion, there's nothing to be afraid of. But what do I mean by afraid? They conjure up scenarios to aggressively dismiss it, rather than simply gather the information and measure it on its own merits (aka, acquire someone's birth information and see if the interpretation measures up, simple as that).

Bottom line--and not to sound overly vague--although interpretations themselves usually draw their lines fairly definitively, the experiences that those interpretations ascribe can vary from person to person.

There is always free will.

Hope that helps!
Have a good weekend!

[freedomlover]

Piscesascendant,

I can tell you (as a person whose Neptune rules his chart and is nearly square my ascendant), that those with a prominent Neptune tend to be the ones people try to manipulate and deceive, not the other way around. It's interesting that those with such a feature in their chart may get "flagged" as deceivers, when they are in fact the ones being deceived.
You know, you're right about that. I had just been thinking this about my own chart. (Saturn in Pisces chart ruler, disposited by Neptune in Scorpio)
I have been deceived my whole life - (my b.s. detector's been broken.:(). It's like I've been living in a prison of lies that I can't escape from -horrible!

I got to looking at some other people's charts that I know with prominent Neptune. The same goes for them - they are being seriously deceived - not the deceiv-er. Thanks for pointing that out, Piscesascendant! I know Neptune doesn't always work that way- it does often throw out a cloud of smoke and mirrors. But it's good to see another way that Neptune can manifest in charts.

FL

[gaer]

I can tell you (as a person whose Neptune rules his chart and is nearly square my ascendant), that those with a prominent Neptune tend to be the ones people try to manipulate and deceive, not the other way around. It's interesting that those with such a feature in their chart may get "flagged" as deceivers, when they are in fact the ones being deceived. I have a Aquarius Sun (truth seeker) and among the other parts to my chart, when I lay things down straight up, those who try to pull a fast one on me realizing "their game" is up, tend to get either nervous or angry and walk away bitterly. Interestingly, I was told by my last professional astrologer, "You have a b.s. detector like nobody's business!"

Neptune is strong in my chart, conjunt Sun/Moon. Ditto on the b.s. detector. I am rarely fooled and often warn other people about being deceived. I have always been considered a very honest person too.

As always the whole chart needs to be considered…

As far as true deception goes, it would probably depend on the aspects to their Neptune, but Neptune in and of itself does not qualify for deceiving.[/quote]

[allie_b]

I think it's like with any chart reading...it all depends on which level the person is living on.

The most deceptive character I've encountered had Neptune in the 12th conjuncting his Asc. in a wide orb to squaring his Moon. The path he chose was deception. Someone else with this conjunction could be a professional intuitive or a spiritual leader, etc..

And perhaps in his case it's not that one (major) aspect of his chart which points to (the motivation) to want to deceive others. He has Saturn opposing both his Sun and his Mercury. So maybe it's out of a sense of low self-esteem that he wants to deceive in order to have "one-up" over others. I really don't know.

I do think this strong (Neptune) aspect points to his not seeing himself clearly (self-deception).

[gaer]

Deception is a lot like abuse. Those who have been deceived are more likely to act in a way that is also deceptive, in my opinion. It has to do with perception of what is real or true. Perhaps the challenge is to "break the chain or cycle".

If anything I associate Neptune with a *kind* of deception rather than with deception itself.

[allie_b]

IMO when one encounters abuse (or deception) they are not more likely to repeat it. The choice is theirs (but it is a choice) whether to repeat it or be repelled by it. And that motivation comes from within the person (again, what level they're living on).

Abuse does tend to repeat. But not all (or even most) who have been deceived or abused tend to repeat it. I'd like to think it's a minority.

I do understand that this is a generally held opinion by many people. But I'd just like to point out (non-astrologically) that those who have come from abuse (whether in childhood or in an adult relationship) are those very people who advocate so strongly against it. Just because you encounter abuse or deception, does not make you more likely to abuse or deceive. It depends on the person. You can either be repelled by it or become the abuse. But it stems from the individual person. Perhaps it's partially genetic (the amount of resiliency one has to withstand the abuse without themselves becoming abusive).

Deception is a lot like abuse. Those who have been deceived are more likely to act in a way that is also deceptive, in my opinion. It has to do with perception of what is real or true. Perhaps the challenge is to "break the chain or cycle".

If anything I associate Neptune with a *kind* of deception rather than with deception itself.

[gaer]

But I'd just like to point out (non-astrologically) that those who have come from abuse (whether in childhood or in an adult relationship) are those very people who advocate so strongly against it. Just because you encounter abuse or deception, does not make you more likely to abuse or deceive. It depends on the person. You can either be repelled by it or become the abuse.

Of course it is an individual matter. But think about deception in the larger sense. Those who are lied to, and here I'm talking primarily children, have to overcome a disadvantage. They start out having been taught lies and have to work through them.

I think this can be seen by the fact that people with very difficult charts often (if not always) have parents or guardians with very difficult charts.

Here is a specific example: alcholism is a theme in my family. When I was young I was taught that the only people who don't drink alcohol are narrow-minded up-tight people. In other words, all the people in the world who hardly drink at all or do not drink at all are somehow ******* up. And alcoholic are people who drink before the sun goes down.

That thinking and a lot more like it is what I inherited from my family. I had to work through that. I had to take a LONG look at people and at the world to discover that I had been lied to.

That's how the deception gets passed on.

Astrologically you can see aspects and house placements in my family members that show this "confusion". Now, if you are confused, does that mean that when you go about living from day to day that you are deliberately deceiving other people? Or even yourself?

I don't think so, though there may come a point when it turns into that. However, confused people, because of their confusion (problems) are very likely to pass this on, and the result is deception, in my opinion.

For the kind of problems I'm talking about here I would definitely look to Neptune in natal charts. Not *only* Neptune, but it seems to be a key player.

[allie_b]

Perhaps you are saying that some people are easily influenced and buy into the deception that the parents impart to their children more easily. You're saying that you chose to believe what your parents told you (about non-drinkers and other things). Or perhaps it's a matter of personality?

Of course we're all influenced by our upbringings to a greater or lesser extent. But whether we believe our parents hook, line and sinker or choose to question, to see the deception for what it is, is probably a matter of personality (and/or resiliency and/or genetic).

[gaer]

Perhaps you are saying that some people are easily influenced and buy into the deception that the parents impart to their children more easily.

No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that little children tend to trust their parents, and they trust that what they are taught is right. Later they may come to question everything they have been taught. I don't believe most people do this. Or at least many do not.

You're saying that you chose to believe what your parents told you (about non-drinkers and other things).

No. I'm not saying that at all. *I* was one of a couple people in my family who questioned everything we were "taught".

Or perhaps it's a matter of personality?

Well, what isn't? We're back to nature/nuture. Unfortunately we are no longer talking about astrology. :)

Do you disagree that we can see a "history", to some extent, by observing the charts of the parents of people who also have difficult charts?

[Dracula]

deception hmmm
well my neptune is in 12th house,
and
Neptune in Sagittarius
Sun Square Neptune
Saturn Sextile Neptune
Neptune Sextile Pluto


what am I ?

[gaer]

deception hmmm
well my neptune is in 12th house,
and
Neptune in Sagittarius
Sun Square Neptune
Saturn Sextile Neptune
Neptune Sextile Pluto


what am I ?
Start with Neptune sextile Pluto. There are a HUGE number of people who have that aspect. Why? Because during the latter half of the 21st century, Pluto drifted inside Neptune's orbit and move faster. In the late 40s and after that Neptune slowly pulled into the sextile position. It was still moving faster. It stayed close to sextile for years. Then Pluto began its "faster than Neptune" period, caught up and REFORMED the sextile. That happened when you were born. Right now the sextile is AGAIN forming each summer, closest during July or early August, I think. It will form an exact sextile again in the summer of 2026.

Get the idea? Before giving any aspect involving generational planets any personal significance, you want to find another planet that aspects both. You have one, Mars, which is semi-sextile both planets. However, since this is not a major aspect, no one is probably going to agree on what (if anything) that means.

Saturn? Well, it conjuncts a slow planet only ever 30 years or so. Actually, it takes a bit longer. There have been times when Saturn has conjuncted Pluto when this conjunction made very difficult aspects to other planets. That's not really true for you. Saturn is semi-sextile Sun. Again, minor aspect.

Anyone born close to the time you were born has Saturn/Neptune sextile Pluto.

If I were looking at any potentially difficult aspect to Neptune, I'd look first at the Sun/Neptune square. But that's not too different from Sun/Neptune conjunct, which I have, and I also have Neptune conjunct Moon.

Before jumping to the conclusion that you are either deceptive or lively in a perpetual fog, I'd be more likely to think that you like to have facts presented accurately, plus with Moon in Leo, it might not be even fun to "be in the spotlight" while people are looking at you (your chart). ;)

[Dracula]

.........

Before jumping to the conclusion that you are either deceptive or lively in a perpetual fog, I'd be more likely to think that you like to have facts presented accurately, plus with Moon in Leo, it might not be even fun to "be in the spotlight" while people are looking at you (your chart). ;)

both are correct, second one is 2000 percent correct. :o

how you made these statements, ? what you saw in my natal chart.

[gaer]

both are correct, second one is 2000 percent correct. :o

how you made these statements, ? what you saw in my natal chart.
The second was a mistake. I stuck in a negative. I SHOULD have typed that with Moon in Leo, it MIGHT NOT be too bad to get a little attention.

Let me attempt to explain. There are people who will not post their charts, ever, and they really don't EVER want to be talked about. They don't want to be analyzed. They don't ever want to be the subject of any thread.

If your Moon were in Scorpio, for instance, you might never ask the kind of questions you've asked here and in at least one other thread. :)

BUT: Saturn conjunct Mercury is a very sober or sobering aspect. It is an aspect that to some extent might have the "grounding" or "realistic" shades of the trine or sextile, but it's much more intense and (in my opinion) is more likely to indicate shyness and lack of confidence. Saturn is also semi-sextile Sun, which I personally think has some of the same meaning of friction as the inconjunct. With Saturn so close to your MC, with Sun and Venus in Virgo, Capricorn AC, those are a lot of indications for at least possibly being good with facts, having a somewhat orderly personality, thus likeing to get your facts straight.

I read your chart as far more introverted than extroverted. Moon in Leo looosens that up a bit, emotionally, or at least that's my guess. If so, you might be surprisingly candid or open with people you know well and trust but may not appear so at all in less intimate situations.

All just guesses on my part, Dracula. :)

[stardust7]

If we were going to get really structual about this we deceive other people all the time, and ourselves.

What woman walks out the door without being caked in make-up? Isn't that deceptive?
Um, THIS woman does not walk out the door being "caked" in makeup. Neither does my best friend. I hardly wear makeup anymore on a daily basis, and even when I do, it is not "caked" on. I use makeup to enhance my natural features, not cover them up or make them seem different than what they are. I don't prefer to look like I am wearing a pound of eyeliner, it's trashy. To assume all women are deceptively trying to make themselves something they are not by applying a little lip gloss is absurd. (It also smacks of a bad attitude toward women in general. :mad: )I wear makeup these days for myself. It's fun and like playing with paints. My lips are already pink, I like to make them pinker sometimes... wouldn't it be more deceptive if I painted them black? I mean we all know lips aren't black, right? "Hey, exactly what is she trying to pull, here? Lips are not black!" LOL

What it comes down to, for me, is the intention behind the deception. Deception entails an awareness and a moral choice. Otherwise it is just "misleading." So to say that there is a negative intention or morality involved in when all women apply some mascara is ridiculous. No actually, it's not ridiculous, it's just a bad attitude toward women.

"Holy cow! She's put on her blush, beware!!! (muah-ha ha!!!!)" Please. Now I might agree with you about breast implants... then again, what is her intention? Is she trying to take down the government with her double D's?

Speaking of Nixon... that "I am not a liar" quote has the same ironic tone as your "not to be negative toward women..."

Star

[gaer]

Um, THIS woman does not walk out the door being "caked" in makeup.

Stardust,

You are debating a member who has not posted in well over a year! :)