why horary doesn't make sense to me...

[AineB]

Ok.. So pretty much here's why I have a little bit of a beef with Horary. Lets say there's 2 astrologers at a metaphysical fair and they offer horary services... they both take clients at the exact same time (yes I know this is kinda far fetched), and each client wants to know if their finances will improve. Now.. seeing as that horary is based off of time and location, both of these clients would recieve identical info. See where I'm going with this?? The reason I had included natal info in one of my last posts is because I had a chart done a few years back under the presumption it was an horary chart since I was wondering how my move I just made was going to affect things. The "astrologer" took my natal chart, relocated it, AND progressed it. Any idea what kind of chart that results in?! But anyways.. how does Horary work out in that scenario I presented. I mean, there's no way each person would have the exact outcome, but if based on standard Horary techniques, they kinda would.. right?? :confused: Thanks for any info guys, just trying to make some more sense outta this!!

Namaste,
Choucho

[Libra20]

I'll let the more experienced horary astrologers take a crack at this. But, I think it has to do with the timing of the question. In horary, it is my understanding, that you note the time for when you first thought of this question that is very important to you to have answered. When you go to a fair and sit down and someone asks you "ok, what would you like to ask" the time chosen is not the moment that you first ask this very important question. So, the timing of the question, which is of primary importance in horary, is invalidated. And, most likely, in a fair situation you are just picking a topic that, in general, has importance for you, so once again, the time isn't for the first time this question is asked.

I'll be interested to see if this is how others see it, too.
________
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[AineB]

Hmmm.. ok.. but how many times does someone really want to know if their finances will improve, or if a relationship is on the horizon?? Sooo in that sense you're only allowed to ask the question once in your life? :D I'm sure that's not the case and of course you would want some type of "break period" in there, but ya see what I'm sayin...

[Libra20]

No, you don't ask that question only once in your life. But YOU pick the moment when it is most pressing to run the chart. Not running the chart because you happen to be at a psychic fair and need a question to ask. A chart done when someone else asks you to ask a question is not YOU picking the moment of the question. Make sense?
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[Kingsley]

It would be very unlikely that the same question is asked at the same time and place, however its an interesting thought. I imagine that for all the people in say eastern australia, if there were fifty people asking a question about money at the same time the horary judgement would be the same. But hey, there are a lot of people with the same monetary concerns I imagine. And another fifty people might ask the same question the next day and get different answers. It would be more realistic that fifty people would ask the question at different times and in different ways.

When I did demonstration readings at fairs, the intervals of time were quite short and even though people asked different questions the aspectrs and ascendant ruler was practically the same. Sometimes the significators were the same too however the questions were never the same.

If somebody asks a question about their financial security, there would most likely be good reason to explore the question further to get to the crux of the horary contract. Unless that is, if it were a question about "is the check in the mail" "will I get the funding", "will I get the loan" "will the balif come around"; even these questions in the right context could be harbouring the real question underneath of "will I go bankrupt".

Usually you can ask another question when something has significantly changed in you financial situation and that is related to the first question. The Horary "oracle" gets really pissed when you ask the same question over and over. Questions like "when will I have romance again" are common questions that get asked over and over by the same persons. Its hard when the answers always seem to say the same thing too.

What does one do to change that kind horary answer? Answer: Get out and do something that changes the homeostasis. Interupt fate by having a say in it!

kingsley

[lillyjgc]

Choucho,
Your original question doesn't seem to take into account the rules for radicality of a horary chart- one of them being a need to feel invested in the situation...this would not automatically happen at a *metaphysical fair*...that would involve idle -question asking, which is against horary rules. The points in a horary chart are in perpetual motion, so no two charts would be exactly the same...pars for example is faster than the moon.
As well, different houses would be involved....horary works but its not a simple practice-thats why William Lilly et al used a strict set of rules. Its not meant to be used for the asking of trivial questions.
I for one would hate to see horary popularised to the extent where it was a sideshow act.
Cheers, Lillyjgc

[Radu]

To continue the line of thinking of previous respondents, EVEN if two persons ask the same question [or much similar] at the same time, these questions could still be answered correctly by horary, receiving the same answer, as a mysterious basic rule of horary says that questions are not asked randomly, but by following the law of resonance. Only persons who would feel compelled to ask a question would do so, that is only those whose question would be in harmony with the astral configuration of the moment.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[AineB]

Ok cool! Definitely makes much more sense now that I took into account for the whole "need" part of things! Spellworking pretty much works in the same way.. ;) Not that the possibility of a scenario like that couldn't happen, but based on the need it would still be interpreted to fit the person. Thanks for all the answers!!

[tikana]

Hi
quite honestly sometimes you want to get an answer you desire but you dont get it and you desparately looking for that YES. To make things even more complicated, when you are emotionally involved with the matter or a querent. You wish them well but you dont see objectively what is the chart telling you or you are missing a piece of information even if the querent doesnt know!

I run into that problem 7 months ago. What i was seeing in real life was not what i was seeing in a horary. Horary was right and wrong. It was right on the outcome but it wasnt right on description dignity speaking. So it totally stressed me out however, because of accidental dignity, the luck just tilted into my direction. I didnt get completely what i was after but i remember Sorehearted said that I will be in control of the situation at the end but i will not get what i want. Sorehearted and I were puzzled on why I was showing up in detriment or fall but at the end 4th house was super strong. There were only 2 possobilities of the outcome, then we were seeing intercepted house with a ruler being its own sign. the second possobility which was close to IMPOSSIBLE came through like a butter on hot toast. Horary didnt see the head on conflict. I run a chart on the situation just recently, it went in flying colors which i wished to be in the situation 7 months ago.

i hope i explained

Tik

[yelena234]

Hello to all,

I have learnt in past few months that I have posted questions too late, means maybe one or more days after the question came into my head. The answer was either Yes or No, but was wrong in each case.

In other things I am very quick if I lose something. In that case I look on my watch, see the time, write it and post the question. That is it! Then I get the right answer.

I have learnt also, that there is not the right time to ask something, when Moon is VOC; AC too late, too early; Moon Via Combusta; no connection between me and question; last aspect of Moon is bad and so on.

Yelena

[Andonis]

If two people with the same true need/worry/question ask it at the same time they should get the same answer.
I would think the same answer in this case is reasonable to me. Just two people in the many it is hardly a statistical deviation. Also remember, the answer to different people, regarding say financing, can have different scale of application. If the answer to ...if they will improve,...it most likely will have different amount of improvement to the same answer. Like 5% of 1000 is much different to 5% of 100

Also, remember in Elections we cunningly choose the time so as businesses evolve favourably! This is Engineering Astrology.

[stargazekid]

What about say I think of a question regarding my relationship at 1:13pm. And at the time it is as pressing as ever... and I think of another question regarding my finances at 1:15pm. Won't the charts look similar if not the same?

[lillyjgc]

stargazekid, Yes the charts would look similar but the *houses* that relate to the question would be different, so different significators would be involved.And therefore the answers to both questions would be different.
hope that explains, Lillyjgc

[lexia523]

a good horay astrologer must do one thing first
assess the question to the chart to be valued (theres another name for it i forget)
the chart must be correct tothe question presented first and one can see this before analysing it.
usually its the first and last few deg of a sign means the chart is not valad
sat in the first and seventh is not to be valad and also void of course moon and so on. im not sure about the saturn myself i think it does play a part in the overall outcome even if in asc or dec.

2 people asking same question same time to the astrologer like the other people here have said .. the time one really needs to know the answer a question of importance will show up in a ligitamate chart that can be read. its like someone lieing to you, a astrologer can see this in the chart to a point.

william lillys guide is available online, and its easy to understand,compared to some other teachings for me anyway.. lol

[Radu]

The question must be assessed for validity not the chart. The chart is ALWAYS valid if the question is genuine.

All chart indications listed above (early/late Ascendant, Moon void of course,
Saturn in the 1st or 7th house) are PART OF THE INTERPRETATION.

The considerations before judgment are plain MYTHS in the case when the chart is cast for the moment the querent asks the question.

These considerations MAY BE taken in account when the chart is set for the moment the question arrives (by any means) to the astrologer, because it so becomes an EVENT chart, that is the event of a horary reading. Many such considerations before judgment are just plain indications that the reading will not go smoothly but the astrologer may err because THE QUESTION is not genuine or true. Usually when the querent pays for the reading the question is genuine, obviously...

In my experience with horary readings I think I remember just one case when the question "has been tampered with" as the querent has asked the question on and on to several astrologers.

[lexia523]

thanks for that radu
i guess i read too many different perspectives on the matter.
and i didnt use the correct words
why do u say myths..i dont think the experts think they are myths
but hey thats just me.

[Radu]

Well it depends on who you appreciate as an expert. Read Frawley's book, "The Horary Textbook", he certainly is a worldwide known expert and he debunks considerations before judgment as myths. Other authors (mainly published in the 70s and 80s) take these consideration from Lilly for granted without giving them much thinking. I think there is an evolution of horary over time, just as in any other field of human knowledge, there is no point to rest glued to medieval thinking.