View Full Version : Happy Natal Chart Day, Kite!
12-11-2005, 12:29 PM
Okay, I know it's actually tomorrow but I might be enamored with some topic tomorrow and forget to wish you a happy birthday!
Thank's Elianah. I will post the info you supplied directly in the spirit of sharing and learning with others.
I'm looking at your progressed charts and noticed that your natal Moon is being flavored by your secondary progressed Moon being conjunct your 2nd-P Sun in Aquarius in the 12th and your SA Moon being trined that energy in Gemini in the 4th.
Your SA Moon says a lot about why Paris for the holidays this year: you want to have fun and joy with a specific member of your family, your wife. The Moon is saying not to overintellectualize it and use it as a fact-finding mission (a typical Gemini behavior). Have fun and play, even be sponteneous—which sometimes can be hard for a fixed rising sign like Aquarius to do.
Speaking of Aquarius, your SA Moon is trined to the 2nd-P Moon and Sun combo in the 12th. One of the things I sense here is that you may need to emotionally connect into the full consciousness of the relationship and allow it to be its own uniqueness rather than overcontrol it to being what you believe it should be (a downside of Aquarius). The Moon-Sun conjunction speaks of being distant enough to see your role within this small group and not too distant that you can't emotionally connect at all. It is going to be a process of emotionally self-actualizing yourself in such a way that you can bring in the harmony and balance of the "missing" Air element in a way that will allow you to bridge the emotional healing between the conscious and unconscious understandings of your relationship between your idea of your marriage and your wife with the actual energy of the marriage and your wife. (This conjunction is conjunct your natal Chiron.)
This all relates back to your Aries Moon in the 2nd because a typical emotional reaction of this placement might be to charge ahead instinctively to protect your emotional self-worth and what you value as you see it only through your eyes. The Gemini-Aquarius trine is asking you to bring so intellectualization into the active process of your Aries Moon in the 2nd and realize that there are always three voices within a relationship, yours, your wife's and the relationship itself. Working with and understanding the other two voices doesn't mean it devalues your self-worth and should be attacked emotionally. It is the conscious linking of all three of those voices together and respecting each of their unique, possibly unconventional, sounds that will allow the full transformation through SA Pluto in Libra in the 8th to take place.
Now, of course, I may be blowing smoke...so, as always, my 2¢ worth. Take what fits and ditch the rest.
Elianah -most of this is right on. However, it might be helpful to offer up my wife's birth data to compare and contrast some of the same issues going on. One thing I just noticed is that she has the same kite pattern I have with Chiron in the opposing position and involved in a t-square as well as a Yod (exactly like mine) if you count Vespa as an inconjunt point. My wife's data is Born Nov. 6, 1954 at 5:03pm in Santa Monica, CA.
12-11-2005, 10:44 PM
Okay, first off I'm just reminding your that I use fairly tight orbs, so where you see aspects I may not. My orbs for natal planets are as follows:
10° for aspects with the Sun and Moon
5° for aspects for the remaining planets, ASC, IC, DSC and MC
2.5° for aspects with Chiron and the lunar nodal axis.
My orbs for transits and progressions:
5° for aspects with the Sun and Moon
5° applying and 2.5° separating for the remaining planets, ASC, IC, DSC and MC
2.5° for aspects with Chiron and the lunar nodal axis.
In your chart I see the following features:
A grand trine between Aries Mars, Leo Uranus and Sag Saturn in the Fire triangle. :)
A trine between your Sag Sun and Aries Moon but too far out of orb to be part of the grand trine.
There is a t-square involving an opposition between Aqu Chiron and Leo Uranus with the focal point being Scorp Neptune. For me, Neptune is barely in orb enough to make it a t-square. It is out-of-orb to really make a square with Chiron and is only minutes within orb of squaring Uranus. However, Chiron is opposing Uranus and is in separating orb from it.
Your Cap Merc is weakly trined with your Virgo Pluto.
Your Scorp Venus and Virgo Jupiter are the only unaspected planets based on the orbs I stated above.
In your wife's chart I see the following features:
A conjuction between Can Uranus Rx and Jupiter, which is part of a grand trine with her Scorp Venus and Pisces Moon. This same conjunction is square her Libra Neptune Merc conjunction. Although others would say that Chiron is opposing Uranus Rx and Jupiter, it is too far out of orb for me.
A square between Leo Pluto and Scorp Venus and a square between Scorp Saturn conjunct Sun with Aqu Mars (these squares are too far out of orb to make a t-square, even if 10° orbs were used for all planets).
The ASC is opposed by the Saturn-Sun conjunction and Pluto weakly opposes the MC.
With my tight orbs, Chiron and the Lunar nodal axis are the only things unaspected.
If you feel comfortable with these orbs and the dynamics that I see playing out in the natal charts, let me know and I will go into the interpretation. My orbs do destroy the kites in both charts, so I would not be basing my interpretation on those features.
Elianah the Kite in my chart is formed from the Grand Trine you mentioned with Mars/Moon Conjunction opposing Jupiter in Virgo (2 degree orb). Jupiter in Virgo sextiles Neptune in Scorpio (1 degree orb) and Pluto in Virgo (0 degree orb).
The t-square I have is with Mars/Moon conjunction squaring Mercury in Cap (1 degree orb) and Jupiter in Virgo squaring Merc in Cap (5 degree orb - separating granted). The yod in my chart is the Mars/Moon conjunction inconjunct Pluto in Virgo (2 degree orb) and inconjunct Neptune (1 degree orb).
In my wife's chart I think the Chiron minimal orb is a nit, especially with the sextile to moon within 1 degree orb. The sextile to Venus is just over 3 degrees orb. I'm not sure why Chiron would be restricted to such a tight orb, especially when it's in the faster parts of it's cycle. If Chiron was in Aries..I'd give you the tighter orbs.
In any event, My observation on the similar kite/t-square aspects in our charts were more of a synchronistic observation about similar enrgy dynamics than any other connection between us. I'm sure the aspects found in synastry tell the larger story.
It's late :oops: ..the sextiles to Jupiter are from Saturn and Uranus and indeed outside your orb. You can now refer to me by given name of Steven but I shall remain Kite for those with less restrictive orbs :wink:
With all due respect Elianah, the Kite pattern is energized by the opposition that gives the grand trine direction, or in the case of my dissociate Mars/Moon Aries vs. Jupiter Virgo opposition, it's challenges that force the Grand Trine off easy street. Whether the opposition sextiles the other planets in the Grand Trine is irrelevant in IMHO because the opposition is what is the big driver. This combined with the inherant Boomerang/Yod..also focuses the Grand Trine into trying to resolve the conflicts presented with the these harder aspects.
I think in terms of orbs, it is very difficult to apply a rule of thumb for all situations. I know that when Pluto was at 4 Libra and Saturn was at 5 Cancer, I had a near death experience (the natal T-square completed into a Grand Cross). Granted Pluto filled out the Square, however with Jupiter in the natal configuation in the 8th house, I would have to say it played a role in my survival - even though the orb was 5 degrees separating from the Mercury square. Since the Moon is involved in the overall aspect, perhaps that would push the orbs out universally for the other planets involved - I don't know.
I will say though, that I know I am not the benefactor of a nice old grand trine just easing me along in life. One thing your POV did uncover for me was that my Jupiter and Venus are in a septile aspect which I find interesting. More to chew on.
12-14-2005, 11:00 PM
I did miscount the orb between the Jupiter/Mars opposition and it is in orb. So you do actually have two oppositions in your chart, Jupiter/Mars and Chiron/Uranus. Merc is in orbal square with Mars but still is far enough out of orb to not normally meet the orbal factor for me between it and Jupiter.
However, since the opposition between Jupiter and Mars is about the same orbal distance as the Merc/Mars square, this does trump the out of orb situation of the Jupiter/Merc square. That does then bring the whole configuration into a t-square.
The other possible t-square, Chiron/Uranus with a focal point of Neptune still does not vibrate for me as a t-square. If Neptune was in a little tighter square with Uranus and Chiron was in a little tighter orb opposition, or Chiron had been a planet instead of a Centaur, I would let it go and call it a t-square also. But with the fact that both the Uranus/Neptune square and the Chiron/Uranus opposition being very barely in orb, I still have to say that they do not resonate enough to form a t-square for me.
The Mars/Moon configuration is 13° out of orb, so I still would not consider a conjunction being between them, even with the Moon having a 10° orb. There is a point where a line has to be drawn on how many degrees orb make an aspect or one would just fade away into using signal/house aspects only.
Now, before we get into a battle of beliefs about orbs, let me say that not every astrologer can read for every person. This is why I posted the orbs I use, so you could see the orbs I use and see if you were comfortable with those orbs. I am guessing you are not and I probably should not be reading for you. I am okay with this.
The decision is yours and I will wait to hear from you one way or another.
Hi Elianah - what astrologers do you know that don't debate about orbs at some point :?
I'm not sure where you have Mar/Moon at 13 degree orb. Are you talking about my wife's Moon to my Mars? I think we got a little sidetracked in our discussion here. I was not overlaying her chart on mine. I was remarking that I thought there were some similar patterns with her Grand Trine (containing a Chiron opposition to her Jupiter/Uranus conjunction)) and my Grand Trine (containing a Jupiter opposition to my Mars/Moon conjunction). I called these patterns two kites but perhaps technically without the sextiles within orb, I would have to call them dynamic grand trines.
Anyway, feel free to read within your parameters. I get sensitive when people try to take my kite away :(
12-15-2005, 01:08 AM
Even though I don't recognize the kite in your chart because of my tight orbs, I will not take away your name from you. You still see the kite as part of your chart and I honor that. :D :D
Now I did notice that I mistyped the day of your birth and made it the 12th instead of the 11th. I never said I could type (or spell, or anything else.... :lol: :lol: ). This is what happens when I try to go too fast with a post, yet another round of egg on the face. I wonder if cholesterol in egg yolks bring youth to the face because it sure ain't bringing wisdom to the brain...
So here is my recheck of your chart:
You still have the grand trine and the Moon is conjunct with Mars within a 1° 20' of exactitude.
The t-square between the Jupiter opp Mars/Moon and Merc focal has tightened up quite a bit, thanks to the Moon being a little more than 1° from exactitude with Mercury. Jupiter is the weakest link in this configuration and still would be out of orb with Merc if it was not in the 3° opposition with Mars.
Pluto is in a very weak trine with Merc.
Jupiter is sextiled with your conjunct Lunar NN/MC and trined with your conjunct Lunar SN/IC.
Chiron and Uranus are still in opposition and I still can't argue for Neptune making a square with them. However, Neptune is making an inconjunct with your Mars/Moon conjunction and a semi-sextile with Jupiter.
The Sun is barely in orb to make a square with Jupiter. If you breathe too hard, you may feel no connection at all. :wink:
And Venus is in no orbal relationship with anything.
Is this a better fit or am I still off (besides the Kite, which my orbs won't pick up)?
No you've got it. Venus is in septile to Jupiter though (within 1 degree orb). Pluto is also inconjunct Moon/Mars Conjuntion forming the Yod.
12-17-2005, 04:06 PM
I haven't worked with septiles, so I am not going to interpret that. I'm not taking that away from you, I just don't have the proper knowledge to use that aspect in interpretation. Same with biseptiles and quintiles.
Okay, I am first going to look at the impact your wife has on you. Let's start with her grand trine.
She has a Water grand trine with one planet (or combo) in each modality. She can easily plug into anyone's emotional patterning and then can decide the best way to work with those energies in the given moment. This can be very for you because there may be times that she seems to know exactly what your emotions are before you do and seems to be able to manipulate them without your knowledge to her best advantage.
The key here is seems to be able to manipulate because it is not truly a form of manipulation, although you might read it like that with the amount of fire you have in your chart. What she is able to do is read the sitiuation emotionally and easily figure out what will be emotionally satisfying for both of you in that moment. Learn to trust that skill of hers and use it to benefit you both as individuals and as a couple.
Now let's look at her grand trine planets as they fall with in your houses.
Her Pisces Moon with 11th house coloring in your 1st house:
Part of her role in this relationship may be to help you connect into your personal unconscious emotionally so you can access what is hidden there, heal it and heal how you show yourself to the world. The Piscean energy also focuses on identifying and healing the way the collective unconscious has impacted your personal unconscious and personal conscious and how you interpret the collective conscious' impact on you. As you become more conscious of what is you (past lives, genetically, and current and future incarnations) and what is the collective (mythologically, historically, present and future), it gives you the ability to have more active emotional choices than reactive as you put forward more of who you actually are into yourself and into the world. Her Moon enables you to become more emotionally conscious overall and emotionally connected with your personal unconscious (Aquarius). Her Moon also pulls through the Aquarian energy at your ASC to the end of your 1st house because of her Moon's 11th house placement. Her Moon gives you the ability communicate to small groups at an emotional level about how to effectively contact all forms of consciousness and use the information they gather to heal and become more conscious. This is reinforced by your 11th house Mercury in Capricorn. You can take what you learn and share it with small groups in a down-to-earth way that doesn't sound totally, too-far-fetched "New Age-y."
This doesn't mean you could not do this on your own, it's just that her energy makes it so much easier to do it because it gives you the underlying emotional push to do it. Her Moon can nuture and nourish this outreach ability in you if you don't see it as a threat to you, which your Aquarian ASC might do. Aquarius, at its worst, thinks it knows everything and no one else knows and understands as much as it does. If anyone or any idea makes the Aquarian feel like it doesn't really know as much as it thinks it does, the Aquarian usually will rebel and withdraw from the person who is supporting the Aquarian.
Now her Moon is trined with your 9th house Scorpio Venus and your Scorpio Lunar NN and Sag MC conjunction. Now by yourself, Venus is too far out of orb to be a stellium with your conjunction for my orbs. When her Moon is brought into the picture, however, its trine with both brings them into a stellium.
Now my approach to Scorpio is that it is the threshold between the instinctual and full consciousness. It is both and it is neither. It is the twilight time, the time of metamorphosis. We learn to see the shades of grey through Scorpio, if we take the energy to the high end of its spectrum, as well as seeing colors more richly and understanding black and white more deeply. This is the willingly understandable depths of the soul, where as Pisces is more the unexplored, unfathomable depths of the soul that usually only trickle up through the unconscious providing us dreams. Cancer is the readily touchable, conscious manifestations of the soul and is instinctive. Scorpio is the crossroads between Cancer's instinctive emotional manifestation of the soul and Pisces totally conscious emotional manifestation of the soul. Scorpio is the alchemist that brings the two together to create the whole and take the whole beyond itself to other realms.
So your wife's Piscean Moon is trining your Lunar NN. Her contact to the emotional present (Lunar SN = Emotional Past, Moon = Emotional Present, Lunar NN = Emotional future) provides the transformational emotional process for your future. By allowing her to relate emotionally to you in the present, she assists you in your higher journeys and learnings into your depths of your soul in order to bring them forward into the now through your ASC. Her Moon can nourish and nurture the use of the teachings of the depths of the soul and teach those higher understanding to others.
(An aside before I forget this thought: I think you said this was your twentieth anniversary year with your wife. This means that your relationship is moving very quickly to its Saturn squaring itself. This particular square will be either a disseminating or last quarter square, depending upon whether it falls before or after the MC of the marital relationship chart, which in this case would be base upon your marriage date, time and location. If it is a disseminating square, it is preparing your relationship to really be under the microscope: how does the relationship function for you, how does it function for her, how does it function on its own merits, how does it function for the family unit? All these questions need to be explored in an open and honest way in order for the soul of the relationship to move forward. There may be a crisis precipitated by the relationship to get the two individuals to pay attention to the relationship on its own merits rather than their singular experiences of the relationship.
If the square is a last quarter one, the crisis will have already happened and you and your wife need to explore what the divide is between the evolutionary pasts of yourself, your wife, and the relationship and the evolutionary needs of all three for the future and see if you can map a journey that will be satisfying for all three. Everyone and every relationship needs to continue to grow in a healthy, mutually beneficial way for all considered or else it may be time to explore healthy ways of separating so the individuals can move on.)
Back to the topic at hand...
The Lunar NN is conjunct with your Sag MC, again emphasizing the bringing out of this higher knowledge into the public. Your wife could be a great support in this process because her grand trine energy intuitively knows what the particular "public" you are working with is the most interested in learning.
This aside does relate to the last paragraph: your wife's ASC squares your ASC. This can lead to issues of not seeing the other's contribution as being as worthwhile as one own. Both the Taurean and Aquarian energy can get very fixated on how it perceives the world and may want to go it alone and not share the glory. This energy is compounded by the fact that her Sun is exactly square your ASC. So you may not trust her as much as your Sag Sun thinks is possible to do. Her ASC/Sun opposition may challenge your ASC to think out side of the rational, intellectual box it has built for itself, and that energy may not want to venture outside of the place where it thinks it is the safest and warmest.
This is where you can allow your shared understanding of personal worth and value through relationship via the Venus connection (again, it is outside of orb for a conjunction in my normal limits, but her Pisces Moon allows the conjuction to take place) to trump the t-square because it harmonizes that normally conflictive energy and rebalances it to be reach beyond the blinders that both ASCs may want to wear on more than one occasion. Her Venus tightly conjuncts your Lunar NN, so her perceptions can enhance what your LNN is striving for.
Okay, I am going to leave this here for the moment and let you digest and come back with questions.
BTW, I am glad you are no longer beating your head against the wall. Now if we can only help you to stop feeling like Sisyphus, it will be nice. :)
Ummm...I think we call it guilt around here instead of manipulate (If you loved me you would have loaded the dishwasher).
Interesting woman behind the man kind of view that works to prime the pump so to speak. I will say that my life certainly became more focused when we got together. She seemed to ground my more etheric qualities and helped me express a more refined style in being and relating.
I do know that we've had to sort out our reactionary emotional behavior that was conditioned from our childhood or perhaps past lives as you say. This is a continuous process as we always have to find the real reasons for getting angry as opposed to the superficial right vs. wrong approach.
I had a fear of speaking in front of any groups until I took a Dale Carnegie class a liittle over a decade ago. Since then, I've been able to do pretty well in that area - when I think back, she was taking communications classes in college that may have helped inspire me to conquer my own fears in that area. Last summer I taught a Kabablah class at the local Unitarian church where she was always present which helped me keep the material for the most part out of the stratosphere.
As far as the Saturn square, we got married on my birthday in a civil ceremony (religious one in Feb.) for tax reasons. I believe it was around 1:30pm in Los Angeles, Dec 11, 1985. I'm not sure though. We did have a crisis that forced us to re-evaluate the marriage and we've done a lot of work in this area. Also our daughter will be going to college in a couple of years which will no doubt cause another restructuring.
I'm not sure what you mean about Aquarians "thinking" they know everything..we don't think...we know :lol:
I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about her Mars conjuncting my Chiron and ASC.
Do you like my puppy?
12-17-2005, 09:14 PM
Patience, my friend, patience. I just haven't gotten there yet...
And I like the puppy much better. Sisyphus just didn't seem like you.
Back to cooking dinner...
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