Confusing Argument

[Navigator]

My boyfriend and I had an argument on the phone last Sunday – so it’s been over a week. He hung up and we have not spoke since. I tried calling later that same night and he didn't return my calls. I had also sent him an email that I know he read last Tuesday, but still no communication from him. (I haven’t tried to contact him since.)

I thought since I had the time of the event (when he hung up) that it might be better than a Horary question, but I’m more familiar with Horary Astrology.


Can anyone see the outcome and why he is overreacting? We were having a conversation about something work related that he all of the sudden got really defensive about? Actually any insight on what happened would be good – I’m confused. :confused:

[starlink]

Hi Navigator! Welcome to this Forum, I see you are new here. There are certain rules that require that all members first try to read their own charts first, does not matter how good they are at horary, electional or natal astrology. But try first yourself. Then others can correct and assist you.
Lets see what you come up with. Cheers, Star.

[Navigator]

Star -

Thanks for the welcome! :)

Okay --- Heres my first attempt. :eek:

Since I am the person asking the question (the querent) the following factors signify me. Although, they might actually signify him since he initiated the action of hanging up???

I am represented by Saturn as Capricorn is rising

I am also represented by Neptune as Aquarius in the First House

I am also represented by Mercury as Moon is in Gemini (also in the Fourth House -- end of the matter)

-----------------------------

He is represented by Venus in the Seventh House

He is also represented by the Sun as Venus in leo in the Seventh House

The Sun is in Libra in the Eigth House - Libra is ruled by Venus

[smilingsteph]

Okay Star, remember my first try- well this one is way better!
I am looking at this chart and seeing that he might be sick or stressed out? If I am on the right track I will tell you why I think that...if not nevermind. I am still trying to figure out the basics of horary :)
I will keep on looking too!
Steph

[Navigator]

Steph -
Just a quick note to let you know that a week or two before this he broke his hand (finger) and had to have surgury. He had a cast on at the time we had the arguement and will still have it for about another month.

[smilingsteph]

Oh interesting...thanks for the info!

[starlink]

Hi Navigator, I am back. Was busy half the day with my adorable little granddaughter (2) because my daughter in law was feeling sick. I have little time tonight also, but will make a start on this.
I am represented by Saturn as Capricorn is rising
Right!

I am also represented by Neptune as Aquarius in the First House

You are co-significated by Neptune, but Neptune in Horary does not play a role as representor of the person, we do not use Neptune, Uranus and Pluto as a rule. In the 16th century people had never heard of them. Nowadays they are used in special occasions (some DO use them), like when they are very pronounced, smack conjunct an angle for instance. Here Neptune just shows in what sort of mood or state you are (nervous and confused?)
I am also represented by Mercury as Moon is in Gemini (also in the Fourth House -- end of the matter)
Not quite. The Quisitor always has as co-significator indeed the Moon (in Gemini in this case)but that's as far as we go here. We just look at what Moon does or is going to do (later).Moon is also used as timer.


He is represented by Venus in the Seventh House

Nope! He is actually represented by the Moon and straight away we come to another rule in horary. When the Quisited or other person the question is asked about, is represented by the Moon (Cancer on the 7th house cusp in this case) then Moon is not anymore co-significator of the Querent. In other words, you lost your Moon as co-significator.

He is also represented by the Sun as Venus in leo in the Seventh House
Not like that. like I said before, dont look at the ruler of the ruler, just look at which other planet is inside that house. Venus is, so yes, Venus can be seen as co-significator of your boyfriend. BUT the whole sign of Leo is intercepted in the 7th so for that reason you could take the Sun as co-representor of him. Venus is Stuck in Leo and weak. The Mutual reception with the Sun does not help THAT much here, because if you would put them in each others Signs, but keeping their own degree! (which you can do and could be useful at times) then still, Venus would be much stronger in own sign but in 8 not really happy again and Sun would be better of in Leo, his own sign, but intercepted, in the 7th. Nevertheless, better off than Venus.

The Sun is in Libra in the Eigth House - Libra is ruled by Venus This is natal astrology, not horary, so forget about that. Just stay with Venus.
the Sun in a horary chart can be seen as the "heart of the Chart" in a way, showing in a way what the question is all about. Here we see the Sun in the 8th, clearly showing that this chart is about a "worry". 8th house very often show worries, miseries, unfortunate things.

Smiley, well, he could be stressed out, he is certainly not happy nor strong in the sign of Gemini because the Moon is peregrine. You can count him in Navigators 5th house by the way and because he has just left the square to Saturn=(Navigator), this shows clearly that they separated after an angry (square) argument (Gemini, associated with talking and communication). He is about to leave his 10th house of career (was the argument about him wanting to leave or has he been dismissed?) and enters the 11th house of hopes and wishes which is Navigators 5th house of romance where he will eventually sextile Venus which could mean that he maybe would want to patch things up again. Also, looking at his 5th house, ruled by Jupiter you can see that Neptune, co-representing Navigator is moving towards Jupiter in mutual application sextile, so there could be an opportunity for things to be sorted out.

Back to Navigator. You want to know why he was defensive. Well, maybe something happened in his career (Moon leaving inconjunct with Mercury, ruler of his 2nd house of income could be a salary adjustment he is not happy about or what I mentioned before) Difficult to know really. He clearly is feeling helpless at the moment and does not know what to do. Moon will make a trine to the Sun actually, which is always a good thing, but here the Sun is also very week in the 8th house AND in fall so it is better to put Sun in 7 and Venus in 8 so Moon can then make sextile to Sun first and as last aspect a trine to Venus before leaving the sign of Gemini. It is all wishy washy really.the 8th house is never good. Even part of Fortune there is badly placed. I cannot decide whether he is going to get lucky or that his "luck" is bitter-sweet. (something to do with his income. Saturn also could be counted as being in the 8th, another nasty influence. He could be frustrated about something to do with money and his career (my best guess here).
I dont know if the End of the Matter will be so fortunate though. Your 4th house ruled by Venus weak in Leo or badly placed in 8 if we switch her over and his 4th house ruled by Mercury in terms of Mars and about to sextile Saturn, a malific. Also Mercury is in the Via Combusta, not a good place to be in even though some astrologers do not take this placement serious anymore due to the fact that nowadays those nasty stars in that Via Combusta are not there anymore. Well, that is all I can say about it. Let us know what happens will you please? Good luck! Star.
I

[Navigator]

Star -

I was so impressed with myself for having the basics down :cool: , but not quite yet it seems...

Thank you so much for the the indepth look :)

Just a quick update... I tried to call again on Monday evening about 9:15 (first time I tried since a week ago last Sunday). His son answered and when he came back to the phone said his dad was home, but in the middle of something and would call me back. Needless to say -- no call back.

The argument was about work in relation to me and his business. I built a six page website that I did for free. Then when he wanted the site expanded it started turning into more work for me that he didn't seem to be appreciating. (He didn't really think he needed one to begin with.) He then said he would pay me for my time. I took that at face value -- like an hourly rate. I didn't charge him for my time building the initial smaller site and then sent him a bill (as he asked me to) for the additional 22 pages, etc. at a fair hourly rate that I cut in half. (I had discussed that amount with him prior and he agreed it was a fair hourly rate.)

By this time he had ‘partnered’ up with a guy (and this guys wife by association) and after I sent the bill, they (the guy) changed the password to the administrators portion of the web hosting account -- where I would have to go to upload any changes to the site. (They did this without telling me) and then didn't pay the bill. My boyfriend did finally pay a portion of the bill sent along with a letter in Dec. 06 that they had no intention of paying the rest of the bill. I continued to send copies of the final bill along a very 'nice' letter asking for an explanation and offering to put the site on their computer and to show them how to make any future changes themselves.

I think I had one very short conversation with him on the phone in January, but none after I sent the follow up bill. After that he wouldn't answer his phone and the one time I did get thru he hung up after realizing it was me. I stopped calling. He seemed to have a hard time sticking up for me to this guy. (I think he ‘forgot’ to mention to them when he agreed to pay me and was then hoping when the bill came they wouldn’t really notice and would just send it thru.) I had a very strong suspicion that guy wouldn't be around there for long, and I thought the two of us could work it out after he was gone.

He finally called me the night of July 4th and sure enough the 'new partner' was gone. He wasn't the one who told me that though. Anyway, we slowly started talking and seeing each other again. (Although at this point we live in different cities.) We agreed to talk about that situation at some point. Then I noticed at the end of August that they had taken down the site I built and replaced it with a new one. (The date on their new site was Aug 28, 07). To be fair it has potential, but it’s far from better. He said he wanted it changed because of 'restructuring' his business (The few pages of his 'partners' and a few other pages weren't put up this time around.) He said he had asked his friends daughter to do one for him before we started talking again. (I told him he should have asked me. I could have taken down those few pages and the other changes that went along with that in just a couple hours.)

Anyway... When I noticed the Sunday before last that the site was becoming very large and still not very good, plus they were copying some of the pages I had done that they shouldn't have. (For reasons other than the fact that they're still mine ;) ) Blah, blah, blah. I brought it up to him as gently as I could and all he said was that he wasn't going to discuss business with me. :confused: Like it had nothing to do with me!!! (That whole part of the conversation took less than six minutes and then he hung up on me.)



"He is about to leave his 10th house of career (was the argument about him wanting to leave or has he been dismissed?) and enters the 11th house of hopes and wishes which is Navigators 5th house of romance where he will eventually sextile Venus which could mean that he maybe would want to patch things up again. Also, looking at his 5th house, ruled by Jupiter you can see that Neptune, co-representing Navigator is moving towards Jupiter in mutual application sextile, so there could be an opportunity for things to be sorted out."



From what you saw (I think) he might be worried about maybe still having to pay me. (Although, there still may be financial issues with the 'old partner'.) I think maybe he thinks that if we didn't have this 'work' stuff to argue about we'd get along better. And I just wish he would be more concerned with my feelings and not be such an extreme conflict avoider.

So an event chart is read like a natal chart? What do you look at to indicate timing for the aspects between the planets??? Is it the person represented by the faster moving planet the one who makes contact or can it be either one?

Oh, and I thought maybe Pluto in the 12th house was him hideing the fact that he was upset until just before he hung up.

[starlink]

Hi there Navigator! Well, here we see again that horary really needs ALL the information in order to make something out of it. I just could see "his business and he leaving that" and the money issue. So that was OK, but I did not know that he was self employed which is of course very important to know. Then I could have maybe seen that he wants to change something in his business to do with communications (Moon in Gem.) and that then could have been the change of the Website.
Apart from this chart, I actually got quite angry at your "boyfriend"! Does not sound like he gives a hoot about you, only about his business. If he would really love you he would have enormously appreciated your efforts on building up his website (clever girl you are by the way, I know from my son who is in IT that that is not the easiest thing to do if you want to do it well) and even refused to take half the money for it. Really, I honestly dont understand how you can accept this sort of behavior from him. And hanging up the phone on you, and telling his son (instead of JUST for a minute coming to the phone himself!!) to tell you he is busy, yeah, my foot!! If you love someone, you put aside your frustrations and come to the phone, you dont just let your girlfriend wait for you (and that after all your nicely put letters!). Sorry for getting so direct here, but dont you think this really not the way things should be? Maybe I got it all wrong here and forgive me for meddling into your private affairs. Maybe the word Boyfriend could also refer to a good friend who is a boy instead of a girl, but I did not get that impression. I suppose he is married? Then I understand this behavior a bit better.
OK, I'll stop here. Seeing his Moon so weak, it could well be that he felt pressured by that collegue of his. I dont know which house to determine for his partner in business. either his 7th which is the same Saturn you are signified by (and also indeed showing he left him after an argument) or the 7th (partner) of the business. Then the partner would be Mars, JUST entered a new sign Cancer. Could also be, because he also started apparently somewhere new after leaving your boyfriend. Horary is complicated and sometimes it just flows out with me and at other times I am truly stuck on something.

Oh, and I thought maybe Pluto in the 12th house was him hideing the fact that he was upset until just before he hung up.

Remember? we dont use Pluto, Neptune or Uranus unless (as some of us do) they are positioned very close to an Angle (Asc., MC, Desc. or IC). So I dont even look at this one. But I do understand why you asked.

I look at an event chart just like a birthchart, so if you would like to approach this chart as an event chart, then all of the above is not valid. Then we see "the situation" of the moment and I guess, the Ascendant shows then the theme (Capricorn, business) , the Moon in Gemini, 3rd sign of communication, that it had something to do with a call and the Sun in 8 that he is momentarily worried because of communication problems (Moon square Saturn) and quite secretive about things. Also his ruler Mercury in Scorpio in the 9th shows that he is secretive. His thoughts (Merc.) are busy with expansion (9th house). Like I said, I actually dont know if there are particular rules concerning Event astrology, but I dont think so. Maybe the Ascendant represents the call or the thing the event is all about. I will ask someone who knows or better even, will go to Google and look up "rules for Event Astrology" see what pops up. Hope things will work out for you in the end. Cheers for now! Star.

[Navigator]

We met several years ago thru work. No, he's not married, and not seeing anyone else (as far as I know). His oldest (16 yr old) son lives with him. When we ran into each other a few years ago he had just gotton divorced. Then a few months after we started seeing each other I had to move and now we live a couple hours apart. My plan is to eventually move back up there :).

I completely agree that his way of dealing with this is not right and really immature :( -- especially because we hadn't even spoke to each other for several months and had just gotton back together. Hes a great communicator except when it comes to personal relationship stuff. (I've seen him deal with his ex the same way.)

I think maybe because of his partnership with that guy breaking up that he had to get rid of those pages? (I'm not sure when that guy left the partnership -- sometime between April and July.) Because we weren't speaking at the time he asked the family friends daughter to do a new one. (They couldn't easily just change mine without me.) After we started seeing each other again he couldn't just simply ask me to do it because -- he never really told me why...

"that he wants to change something in his business to do with communications (Moon in Gem.) and that then could have been the change of the Website." Maybe to either get rid of the 'association' on it with his partner or my association with it, or both??? Anyway, I was very hurt by it especially because we had just gotton back together.

I was thinking maybe with Mercury Retrograde we might finally be able to sort that siuation out :confused:

I did a search and couldn't find much, but I did find this
http://www.astrologybooth.com/study/EventCharts.shtml (http://www.astrologybooth.com/study/EventCharts.shtml)

[starlink]

Maybe to either get rid of the 'association' on it with his partner or my association with it, or both??? Anyway, I was very hurt by it especially because we had just gotton back together.

Well yes, I can imagine that. He could just as well have asked you again. Maybe you had the set-up still in your computer saved so it would not have been a big deal (might be wrong here as I have NO idea on how to do these things). Oh well, you know him better, but I feel that somehow, you will have to talk about these things of his, I mean the "not telling because it involves an emotional detail". They have to know how this affects the other person (and maybe his ex-wife too). Otherwise you will end up same way as her and that is not what you want is it?

[Navigator]

I feel that somehow, you will have to talk about these things of his, I mean the "not telling because it involves an emotional detail". They have to know how this affects the other person.

You make an excellent point! I'm going to write it all out in a letter to bring him next week when I am in the area next. Hopefully he'll be willing to talk a bit by then :confused:.

He is about to leave his 10th house of career and enters the 11th house of hopes and wishes which is Navigators 5th house of romance where he will eventually sextile Venus which could mean that he maybe would want to patch things up again.

Also, looking at his 5th house, ruled by Jupiter you can see that Neptune, co-representing Navigator is moving towards Jupiter in mutual application sextile, so there could be an opportunity for things to be sorted out.

How can I figure out a possible timeing with the first aspect? (I could only find the second one -- Jup Sxtil Nep 10/26 to 11/05 Exact on 10/31)

He did call twice last night at 2 am and the phone just rang a couple times. I called back pretty quick - no answer. (I'm sure he had been out drinking and got the courage up to call ;).) Anyway... I called tonight early evening and left a nice, flirty message - no call back :o

Thank you soooooo much for all of your effort with this :D

[starlink]

I'm going to write it all out in a letter
I had a husband (now divorced from him, but still in contact) who totally disliked and still dislikes any conversation involving emotions, feelings, you name it. The only way to get through to him was writing (he writes himself very well and started a book about his experiences in South America), so it might well work with him too. I sincerely hope for you it does. Toi toi!! Star.

[Navigator]

He called me last night and we made plans to see each other next week. I told him l'd give him the letter when I see him, so hopefully we can sort all that stuff out then. At least we're talking now. :)
Thanks again!

[Theo]

Hi Navigator. As for your question, "So an event chart is read like a natal chart?" ~ the answer is yes. I took a moment to review the transits of your question, and the present (and coming) global transits. Here are some of my thoughts ~

Let it go. Transits indicate problems with this situation, and relationship at this present time into 2008. Sorry for the bad news, but the transits are quite clear on this.

My reasons: The event chart of the hangup call with him clearly shows stressed communications by telephone/emails (Moon/Gemini square Saturn) while trying to work out business/personal matters (Moon/Gemini quincux Mercury/Scorpio).

The Moon's position is dominant in the Fouth House, ruled by Venus (Taurus) with the end of the 4th House Cusp, and the start of the Fifth House Cusp (7-Gemini) trines the transiting Sun in Libra (personal relationship).

The problem is perception. He knows you did a lot of work, but wants the ownership. He confuses personal friendship/relationships with business ~ oil & water don't mix.

Jupiter/ SAG squares Uranus /PISCES (difficulty in expressions when it comes to personal emotions/relationships.

Mars at tropical 0-point Cancer. This is the domicile of the Moon, where Mars is in its "fall." Here, in the Sept. 30 chart you posted, Mars is in the Sixth House (working from home)

Leo is "intercepted" in the Seventh House, where Venus & Saturn have entered. You represent Venus, and he represents that ingress of Mars into tropical Cancer. The interception of Leo (ruled by the Sun) points to the Sun's fall in Libra (relationships) the sign that also rules the adrenals. Excitement at possible physical connection again. Venus/Saturn in the Seventh are in opposition to Neptune in Aquarius (illusions, false promises, murky intentions...)

The position of Venus/Saturn in the Seventh on that chart clearly gives a "thumbs down" on the relationship, and the business that's left undone between the both of you (and his friend, and wife by association."

It is best to let this one go. I know it is difficult to hear Navigator, because of the time & effort you put into the work for him. However, at this time, with these transits of autumn/early winter; it is best to look forward, and not back. He most likely having to restructure, there's plenty of that going on everywhere. And, it is going to take some time too.

Global transits from now to mid-December are not favorable for resolving the business end and the relational part of the situation. Moreover, as Saturn conjoins the South Lunar Node for a while, and as Mars transits Cancer, then retrogrades in November, with an overall transit of the latter degrees of tropical Gemini, and Cancer through to early May 2008 ~ all this points to moving on and planning for new projects, and a new relationship, which will be on the horizon by the time of the coming Venus/Jupiter conjunction at the end of January 2008.

I would advise against seeing him, or taking part in helping him with his web pages. Remind him by mail of the hours/time you put into the work, and then charge a fair price, then leave it with him. Don't argue (Mars in Cancer) or connect the business end with the relationship end (remember oil and water).

The transits of this autumn season are unfavorable for pressuring others; especially males, not with Mars transiting Cancer. Remember, this transit will last, more or less, from autumn, through winter 2008, and into spring 2008 before moving into Leo. That means that for the next six (6) months, it is best to let it be, and to move on.Star -

I was so impressed with myself for having the basics down :cool: , but not quite yet it seems...

Thank you so much for the the indepth look :)

Just a quick update... I tried to call again on Monday evening about 9:15 (first time I tried since a week ago last Sunday). His son answered and when he came back to the phone said his dad was home, but in the middle of something and would call me back. Needless to say -- no call back.

The argument was about work in relation to me and his business. I built a six page website that I did for free. Then when he wanted the site expanded it started turning into more work for me that he didn't seem to be appreciating. (He didn't really think he needed one to begin with.) He then said he would pay me for my time. I took that at face value -- like an hourly rate. I didn't charge him for my time building the initial smaller site and then sent him a bill (as he asked me to) for the additional 22 pages, etc. at a fair hourly rate that I cut in half. (I had discussed that amount with him prior and he agreed it was a fair hourly rate.)

By this time he had ‘partnered’ up with a guy (and this guys wife by association) and after I sent the bill, they (the guy) changed the password to the administrators portion of the web hosting account -- where I would have to go to upload any changes to the site. (They did this without telling me) and then didn't pay the bill. My boyfriend did finally pay a portion of the bill sent along with a letter in Dec. 06 that they had no intention of paying the rest of the bill. I continued to send copies of the final bill along a very 'nice' letter asking for an explanation and offering to put the site on their computer and to show them how to make any future changes themselves.

I think I had one very short conversation with him on the phone in January, but none after I sent the follow up bill. After that he wouldn't answer his phone and the one time I did get thru he hung up after realizing it was me. I stopped calling. He seemed to have a hard time sticking up for me to this guy. (I think he ‘forgot’ to mention to them when he agreed to pay me and was then hoping when the bill came they wouldn’t really notice and would just send it thru.) I had a very strong suspicion that guy wouldn't be around there for long, and I thought the two of us could work it out after he was gone.

He finally called me the night of July 4th and sure enough the 'new partner' was gone. He wasn't the one who told me that though. Anyway, we slowly started talking and seeing each other again. (Although at this point we live in different cities.) We agreed to talk about that situation at some point. Then I noticed at the end of August that they had taken down the site I built and replaced it with a new one. (The date on their new site was Aug 28, 07). To be fair it has potential, but it’s far from better. He said he wanted it changed because of 'restructuring' his business (The few pages of his 'partners' and a few other pages weren't put up this time around.) He said he had asked his friends daughter to do one for him before we started talking again. (I told him he should have asked me. I could have taken down those few pages and the other changes that went along with that in just a couple hours.)

Anyway... When I noticed the Sunday before last that the site was becoming very large and still not very good, plus they were copying some of the pages I had done that they shouldn't have. (For reasons other than the fact that they're still mine ;) ) Blah, blah, blah. I brought it up to him as gently as I could and all he said was that he wasn't going to discuss business with me. :confused: Like it had nothing to do with me!!! (That whole part of the conversation took less than six minutes and then he hung up on me.)



"He is about to leave his 10th house of career (was the argument about him wanting to leave or has he been dismissed?) and enters the 11th house of hopes and wishes which is Navigators 5th house of romance where he will eventually sextile Venus which could mean that he maybe would want to patch things up again. Also, looking at his 5th house, ruled by Jupiter you can see that Neptune, co-representing Navigator is moving towards Jupiter in mutual application sextile, so there could be an opportunity for things to be sorted out."



From what you saw (I think) he might be worried about maybe still having to pay me. (Although, there still may be financial issues with the 'old partner'.) I think maybe he thinks that if we didn't have this 'work' stuff to argue about we'd get along better. And I just wish he would be more concerned with my feelings and not be such an extreme conflict avoider.

So an event chart is read like a natal chart? What do you look at to indicate timing for the aspects between the planets??? Is it the person represented by the faster moving planet the one who makes contact or can it be either one?

Oh, and I thought maybe Pluto in the 12th house was him hideing the fact that he was upset until just before he hung up.







[Mod note - to move the new answer above the very long quote, thereby making the post more reader-friendly.]