Utah Miners

[20questions]

Hi all, I'm new here and hope I've posted this in the right thread. For some reason, I've felt really invested in the fate of these miners. I did a horary chart for them yesterday and I thought the chart was really quite significant. I'm only an amatuer in horary but enjoy trying to interpret things. If anyone has ideas, I would be very interested. I'm having a hard time posting the chart so apologies in advance. I'll try and get the chart so it's visible in the message, I know it's annoying trying to discuss something you can't immediately see.

In the meantime, here is the link to the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_w2gw_127_horaryminers_what_happened_hp.2 4096.7686.gif&res=63&va=&cid=ac1file6i9flD-u1037512966

[20questions]

Ok, I think I figured out how to post the chart: 832

edit: err, not sure that worked after all. If anyone has advice about how to post a readable chart it would be appreciated!

[RayAustin]

hey, yay, i've been waiting for a meaningful chart to decipher...
one thing though, a little more background to the situation ? i'll glance at the chart but background information makes suchhhh a difference.

Hi all, I'm new here and hope I've posted this in the right thread. For some reason, I've felt really invested in the fate of these miners. I did a horary chart for them yesterday and I thought the chart was really quite significant. I'm only an amatuer in horary but enjoy trying to interpret things. If anyone has ideas, I would be very interested. I'm having a hard time posting the chart so apologies in advance. I'll try and get the chart so it's visible in the message, I know it's annoying trying to discuss something you can't immediately see.

In the meantime, here is the link to the chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_w2gw_127_horaryminers_what_happened_hp.2 4096.7686.gif&res=63&va=&cid=ac1file6i9flD-u1037512966

[RayAustin]

and WOAH, i just had like, an equivative "woah" oujia board moment.. just how right-on the chart is, with you being in H4, house of mines, and the miners significators being in H4 too.. woah.. now i'm realllyyyyy gonna have fun looking at this. i'm all pumped up. :D:D:D

[20questions]

Eeek, I know. It's great having someone reply so quick because I was really struck by the chart as well. Ugh, I wish I could figure out how to display it in the message though :( ...as backrgound to the question, there isn't much..I have just been following the tragedy on the news and for some reason have felt particularly upset about it all. I finaly asked a horary question about it last night: I asked: what happened to the Utah miners. Hope that gives a bit of meaningful backrgound. As soon as I figure out how to actually post the chart I'll give some of my own interpretations.

[RayAustin]

Eeek, I know. It's great having someone reply so quick because I was really struck by the chart as well. Ugh, I wish I could figure out how to display it in the message though :( ...as backrgound to the question, there isn't much..I have just been following the tragedy on the news and for some reason have felt particularly upset about it all. I finaly asked a horary question about it last night: I asked: what happened to the Utah miners. Hope that gives a bit of meaningful backrgound. As soon as I figure out how to actually post the chart I'll give some of my own interpretations.
haha, yeah, i'm a night owl.
i'm doing this chart right now, and since i'm so awesome i'll put the chart in this post so people can see.. since i have my own website space. you'll need a website hosting the image for you to show it, but anyway here's the chart:

http://childrenofnebadon.com/horary/miners.gif

i just got through studying debilities&dignities today so i should be more accurate about this then i have been in past horaries (if you're studying horary, you'll figure out what that stuff means later if you don't know, that is).

rayA:p

[20questions]

Hey, thanks so much :D I am really looking forward to your commentary! In the meantime, here are my own thoughts:


Well, the main things in this chart that stand out for me are: 1) Mars in the 1st house of the “physical body” square most of the personal planets which are congested in the 4th house, which rules “mines’ and “mining” and also 2) Neptune in the 10th house of ‘public perception” opposite that conglomeration of personal planets in House 4. I am however uncertain how to interpret this. On one level, the chart could be describing a “physical blow” to the planets in the 4th house. It could mean the miners were literally hit by a “blow” (the mine collapsing on them) and Neptune in the 10th house would describe ‘our’ ( the public’s) uncertainty about their welfare. (I know Neptune isn’t regularly included in horary but in this case it’s so prominent and pertinent that it’s hard to ignore) On the other hand, if you look at the chart visually, it really literally depicts a “cave-in”: the miners are ‘cut-off’ from above. Mars cuts communication off from below to above. In this case, it’s more complicated. I can’t remember but am I right in thinking Neptune has to do with asphyxiation?

[20questions]

Anyway, I'm heading off to bed and I look forward to reading replies tomorrow. Thanks again for hosting the chart . It will be interesting to see people's various interpretations of this chart!

[RayAustin]

My Interpretation:
after a whole bunch load of notes, this is my take.
i kind of state the obvious sometimes, but i'm just describing the chart, and I'm probably going all over the place but I like to look at every *little* thing. it's late so some things might be a little weird.

querent = mercury
quesited (miners) = Sun, ruler of H4 and/or saturn, natural ruler of mines&miners.

Being Mercury in H4, it is apparent that you have a deep interest in the situation, and it is my suspicion that you might be connected to these people somehow, maybe it is a cousin on your father's side or some other little known relative could be one of the miners, and maybe it effects you on a subconscious level in particular, that's just a suspicion of mine.

Your significator is squaring mars, the ruler of the miner's radical 9th (I'm using it in this horary as a search for truth), and the ruler of your 12th (In this aspect I'm using it as "secrets"), I think this is emulating into the chart that you're frustrated at not knowing what actually happened.

The ruler of your thoughts is the moon & of whom is also your ruler of emotions, in the miner's radical third, so I see this as the chart showing you possibly of thinking of the rumors surrounding the situation or thinking about and being sympathetic to their family members.

The H4 planets:
I'm using venus to symbolise secrets (its your h12 intercept ruler) & sorrow as you see them, and also as the miner's radical third, which in this case I am using her as the news, combining this into "disdainful talk surrounding the incident", i.e.; the news.

Saturn is also here, it is in detriment in Leo, he is the ruler of your 8th house (hidden matters)... and the miner's radical sixth (illness). It is conjuncts the sun, which I'm just going to attribute to as your anguish for the miner's situation. He is squaring mars notably, the cusp ruler of your h12.

The Miner's H8 house of death (radical 11th):
So, the ruler of this by cusp is jupiter, who is powerfully dignified in sagittarius by house and triplicity and a hair away from term, and is in the miner's H4, it suggests the mine as cause of death, burying underneath earth perhaps. Uranus is positioned within their H8, suggesting that this was abrupt, unexpected. It would definitely seem so as jupiter is applying to uranus by square, and opposing mars--if we use mars as the intercept ruler of the miner's house of death that makes sense, maybe this is saying that the accident happened abruptly and quickly, or that some actually as well died quickly. If we used aries as intercept sign ruler of their h8, maybe fire was involved too, or with pisces, drowning.. in the most practical sense i.e. lack of air?

Now I'm trying to analyze why mars (ruler of their house of death) is in their H10 and your H1. For your H1 I'm just going to see this as your interest in their cause of death. For why it's in their h10 I'm actually going to pay attention to it because it's the cosign of their h10 so it is powerfully dignified, an association perhaps with death and their career (i.e. a risky occupation, death on the job). Mars is square saturn and I'm kinda scratching my head what the hell that could mean ? I am just going to say it's increasing the friction between it and saturn. I think mars is accidentally dignified by being within orb of the ascendant, adding to it's hostility.

If we look at the aspect table, we can see many of the significators are squaring eachother, opposing uranus & it just looks like they were doomed.

Judgment:
While on the job, there was most likely an explosion of some sort followed by a cave in, or vice versa ( this by use of pisces & aries influencing the the radical H8). With uranus in H8, it was certainly unexpected/sudden, and there was irresponsibility involved. I think the chart points to something violent and rapid. With the death ruler in the quesited H10 as I've said above it was probably a known risk/fear of the job that actually happened, such as the possibility of a particular something exploding if mishandled. Now that I think about it, with Mars squaring Uranus in the h8, I think irresponsibility perhaps by the company owning the mine or its workers definitely was a factor.

Judging the state of radical 4th (their h1), I don't think there will be any survivors, there is lack of "vitality".
The chart suggests that "truth" will not be found in the situation somehow, partly, maybe because the witnesses themselves are dead. The chart also suggests illusions of the truth maybe by media, perhaps even a cover up.. there certainly is a "secrets" theme going on.

I was re-looking at Saturn, which could also be represented by their wives, Jupiter their family members--I decided to use mercury as the company the miners were working for, there might be lawyers involved and suing (mercury is conjunct saturn) against the company, if we use radical h2 as a significator for the mining company's money, it is in the 3rd house (house of the miner's kindred), and joying there, so they might get money from the company. The moon is technically in fall, but she is also being 'received' by mars (the cause of death) which lessens that. perhaps this means the actual cause of death will allow them to get money.

I also think that somehow you might be affected like I said when I first started, and that's why I included you in the chart besides being the querent of course. It might be because you are related to the victims or simply because you have sympathy/empathy for the families of the miners.

One thing I don't get though is jupiter, a benefic, being dignified, that would at first be a good thing but it's opposing mars (death) and squaring uranus (accident). maybe there was something lucky that happened so far, or luck transformed into 'unluckiness'?

I dunno, I've put alot out there. LOL. :eek::rolleyes:
well, this is the picture the chart is painting to me.

[RayAustin]

HUNTINGTON, Utah | Six coal miners caught in a cave-in probably will not emerge alive and may forever be entombed in the still-quivering mountain, officials conceded Sunday.Relatives responded by accusing federal officials and the mine’s owners of quitting on the rescue effort and leaving the men for dead.
“We feel that they’ve given up and that they are just waiting for the six miners to expire,” said Sonny Olsen, a spokesman for the families, said as about 70 relatives of the trapped miners stood behind him.
Air readings from a fourth hole drilled more than 1,500 feet into the mountainside found insufficient oxygen to support life, and the latest efforts to signal the men were again met by silence.
“It’s likely these miners may not be found,” said Rob Moore, vice president of Murray Energy Corp., co-owner of the Crandall Canyon Mine, abandoning the unflinching optimism.
The families of the missing miners demanded that rescuers immediately begin drilling a 30-inch hole into which a rescue capsule could be lowered.
“We are here at the mercies of the officials in charge and their so-called experts. Precious time is being squandered here, and we do not have time to spare,” Olsen said.
There has been little evidence that the six miners survived the initial Aug. 6 collapse. Workers have gained limited access through four boreholes into which video cameras and microphones were lowered. Rescuers banged on a drill bit and set off explosives Saturday, hoping to elicit a response, but heard none.
Engineering experts from around the nation gathered at the mine Sunday to try to figure out a safe way of reaching the missing men. Underground tunneling has been halted since three rescuers were killed.


my interp. is very in line with that, I can really see a lawsuit brewing.

[starlink]

Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".

[RayAustin]

Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".
I disaggree about 'not knowing what happened', the final result I aggree may be unknown by the presence of the early ascendant, but the chart says to me a lot about "what actually happened" and "what's happening now", as well as "what can be expected to happen", it's picture perfect to me.

20's question was general, and that's why they got a general picture back to them which is what they wanted--thus the question was correct in prose. He wanted to know the "fate", not just if they were dead or not--they wanted to know the surrounding circumstances. And also by the fact that they were upset, to me it's apparent s/he wanted to know why they were being affected by it so much in their mood.

With the scene, the chart suggests death in particular for the miners (with a glimmer of hope), unexpected tragedy, irresponsibility possibly, "how" it happened & the miner's family suing against the company, as well as a possibility that 20 might be related to them distantly, either that or sympathetic/empathetic emotional concern/attachment. I'm not using anything that isn't suggested by the chart.

rayA

[archergirl]

Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.

Being Mercury in H4, it is apparent that you have a deep interest in the situation, and it is my suspicion that you might be connected to these people somehow, maybe it is a cousin on your father's side or some other little known relative could be one of the miners, and maybe it effects you on a subconscious level in particular, that's just a suspicion of mine.

You are using natal astrology methods in horary, which is a no-no, Ra. Horary is very literal in its interpretations. See:

Mercury, as ruler of the 1st, appropriately represents 'multiples' (Mercury rules 'bunches' of things, such as keys, as well). In this case, it is a 'multiple' of miners. They are 'buried' in the 4th house of the grave, in a late degree, and leaving combustion. Their fate will soon come to light as they leave the Sun's beams and move into the exalted status of Virgo.

I do not think they are alive; Jupiter, ruler of the 8th of death, is opposed by an applying Mars; the Sun, ruler of 'the end of the matter' is in his own house and obscures everything else. The ruler of the 6th of the miners' collective health is Venus, and she is in an abject state, having just conjuncted the Sun (the End), and being retrograde. She is retrograde for a long time to come.

You are correct that Mars represents ruptures, and acts of suddenness; it separates from a square to Saturn, and is in the sign of the miners. My guess is that they were crushed by the falling rocks, as Mercury's last aspect was a conjunction to Saturn, which rules stone, walls, and solid structures as well as bones, teeth, and the 'structures' of the body. Because the Mars/Saturn square happened awhile back, the 'fault' in the mine may have already existed.

However, ALL of you have ignored the fact that the Moon is void of course in this chart. The Moon is THE planet to watch, in any horary. I really don't understand why this fundamental is so broadly disregarded by students. :confused:

As Starlink, an astrologer of very good skills has reminded you, the ascendant is in early degrees. This doesn't mean that the chart can't be read, only that you do not have all the information available to you to make a valid judgement. This, combined with the VOC moon, is a strong caution not to judge this chart as the final answer, or to count your chickens before they've hatched.;)

We've come to basically the same conclusion by different means.

20's question was general, and that's why they got a general picture back to them which is what they wanted--thus the question was correct in prose. He wanted to know the "fate", not just if they were dead or not--they wanted to know the surrounding circumstances.

This isn't necessarily so, and I'm with Starlink on the fogginess of the question. To get a really good horary answer, you need a really good horary question, and the question has to be understood by the astrologer reading the chart. Being that there are several astrologers on here who all have different interpretations of what the question *actually was asking*, it's beneficial to ask for clarification from the querent, instead of all of us making assumptions about the relationship of the querent to the question, and what they were asking. That VOC moon didn't just appear in the chart by accident.

Cheers,
AG:)

[starlink]

Yes, you are right Ra, I also understood it that way. I was just puzzled by that early Ascendant and wondered why (and what about the question was too early). It is very clear, also from how you interpreted the chart, what happened to the poor guys.

[RayAustin]

Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.



You are using natal astrology methods in horary, which is a no-no, Ra. Horary is very literal in its interpretations.


I didn't use the 7th, actually, I used the fourth. I attached personal involvement because 20 said they were 'deeply invested' in the fate of the miners, I thought about using the chart all just for the miners but decided against it. Whatever the case, the picture is still similar enough actually.

As for what you mean by natal methods, what methods are you speaking of that I'm using ?



See:

Mercury, as ruler of the 1st, appropriately represents 'multiples' (Mercury rules 'bunches' of things, such as keys, as well). In this case, it is a 'multiple' of miners. They are 'buried' in the 4th house of the grave, in a late degree, and leaving combustion. Their fate will soon come to light as they leave the Sun's beams and move into the exalted status of Virgo.


interesting about the 'multiples' thing, and the exaltation thing which I didn't notice. it's always good to have another pair of eyes.


I do not think they are alive; Jupiter, ruler of the 8th of death, is opposed by an applying Mars; the Sun, ruler of 'the end of the matter' is in his own house and obscures everything else. The ruler of the 6th of the miners' collective health is Venus, and she is in an abject state, having just conjuncted the Sun (the End), and being retrograde. She is retrograde for a long time to come.

You are correct that Mars represents ruptures, and acts of suddenness; it separates from a square to Saturn, and is in the sign of the miners. My guess is that they were crushed by the falling rocks, as Mercury's last aspect was a conjunction to Saturn, which rules stone, walls, and solid structures as well as bones, teeth, and the 'structures' of the body. Because the Mars/Saturn square happened awhile back, the 'fault' in the mine may have already existed.


yes.. 'fault that already existed', applies to my theory that the cause may have been a risk that the miners and/or company were already aware of, if that's what you mean.


However, ALL of you have ignored the fact that the Moon is void of course in this chart. The Moon is THE planet to watch, in any horary. I really don't understand why this fundamental is so broadly disregarded by students. :confused:


haha yeah, as for what that could actually mean in this situation i'm not so sure. :confused:


As Starlink, an astrologer of very good skills has reminded you, the ascendant is in early degrees. This doesn't mean that the chart can't be read, only that you do not have all the information available to you to make a valid judgement. This, combined with the VOC moon, is a strong caution not to judge this chart as the final answer, or to count your chickens before they've hatched.;)

Cheers,
AG:)

yeah, I know, I overlooked that, I don't think that this is the end result *at all*, I *aggree* that the final result is not known at this time.

rayA

[starlink]

Hi AG! Nice to come forward! That Moon is also in the Via Combusta (between 15 Libra and 15 Scorpio) and I actually took the inconjuct to Mars as a last aspect, but the whole thing is totally weak.Neptune being in the 10th and so powerfully opposing that 4th house Stellium ,I feel, can be counted in maybe and counting towards Moon's last square? Confusion all over the place!

[RayAustin]

oh .. In addition, decided to use radical houses because I was curious as to what personal attachment if any 20 might have to this situation & these people, I thought it fascinating how they were concerned and how they may be unknowingly connected... And I dug into the chart for the subtle suggestions.

Just an explanation so it doesn't seem like I'm just using 'wack methods'.

[archergirl]

I didn't use the 7th, actually, I used the fourth. I attached personal involvement because 20 said they were 'deeply invested' in the fate of the miners,

Ah. I still wouldn't use the 4th, or anything other than the 1st for this question, unless 20questions had specifically asked about a miner who happened to be his/her father. Some people are invested in questions about whether Manchester United will beat Chelsea in the playoffs. It doesn't change the significators!:p

As for what you mean by natal methods, what methods are you speaking of that I'm using ?

Well, using the 4th to represent 'deep interests of the querent', etc. That really is a natal methodology, and doesn't apply in this general of a question. The question was, 'What is the fate of the miners?' so all you are looking at is the state of the miners, not the state of mind of the person asking the question, what their psychological state is, whether they've been pondering it long and deeply, etc. It just doesn't apply! UNLESS, again, 20questions had a vested interest in the question due to one of the miners being a relative, etc., in which case you would change the reading entirely.

haha yeah, as for what that could actually mean in this situation i'm not so sure.

A void of course Moon is a warning that 'nothing will come of the matter'; in the case of this question, it most likely means that all of our extrapolating is an exercise in futility.

Cheers,
AG:)

[archergirl]

Hi Starlink,

Inconjuncts are not used in horary; some people like to use them, but it's not clear to me why they'd want to, since inconjuncts are tricky enough in a natal chart. :p The traditional aspects: conjunction, sextile, trine, square, and opposition, tell us everything we'd ever need to know in a chart, IMO.

You know I don't use the outer planets much, but yes, Neptune is quite prominent, and represents the 'outer world' of the vast public. Confusion, most definitely! It may be that the people in charge of the mine also don't have a clear idea of what happened.

Best,
AG:)

[RayAustin]

Well, using the 4th to represent 'deep interests of the querent', etc. That really is a natal methodology, and doesn't apply in this general of a question. The question was, 'What is the fate of the miners?' so all you are looking at is the state of the miners, not the state of mind of the person asking the question, what their psychological state is, whether they've been pondering it long and deeply, etc. It just doesn't apply! UNLESS, again, 20questions had a vested interest in the question due to one of the miners being a relative, etc., in which case you would change the reading entirely.

Yes you have a point there, I don't like saying irrelevant obvious things too much (like "they're deeply interested in the situation"), but taking it from the querent's point of view in times where it may not apparently be at first does show a lot of insightful information into the querent's demeanor/attitudes, possibility of involvement which I find fascinating. Is this breaking a law of some sort? Unless William Lilly absolutely advises against it, I may continue to do this when I feel a 'prompt' to.

I do understand your point, which is in short that the chart isn't always about the *querent*. Yes I know. But if I wanna look, I'm gonna look.

[archergirl]

Oh, I'm not arguing against using psychological astrology in a horary chart, by any means. I use it frequently...when it is relevant to the question. To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that 20questions said they were interested in this event, but that the chart actually has nothing to do with 20questions. The first challenge in these sorts of charts, I find, is who signifies what, and from which houses, and figuring that out comes with long practice. Even then, sometimes very experienced astrologers disagree! :p

AG:)

[starlink]

I know, I know AG!! No inconjuncts, but stubborn me, after having read Anthony Louis's book who does use inconjuncts, I am always tempted. Maybe because I have studied the inconjunct in-depth in natal astrology because I just HAD to know what it meant in my natal chart (Moon inconj. Uranus and Mars and Mars ruler of my Ascendant). I ordered this book about problem solving in horary today,(Marc Edmund Jones) cant wait to receive it!! I am also considering the book" hooked on Horary, Volume III" from Joan McEvers, as I am a horary junky by now, :) :)!!

[archergirl]

Ah, Starlink,

Draco said something funny about most horary astrologers being grim Saturn types, and this describes me perfectly! :p I love my traditional methods. (I'm not closed to modern stuff, necessarily, but I need to see *proof* that it works first! ;) ).

AG:)

[RayAustin]

To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

AG:)
So true--lol..:) I'll have to keep that in mind so I don't "draw in dots to connect".



A void of course Moon is a warning that 'nothing will come of the matter'; in the case of this question, it most likely means that all of our extrapolating is an exercise in futility.
but why is it futile? that's what I like to know. mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning.

**

also when I used the radical houses, making the quesited a different party I was able to arrive at signs indicating a lawsuit possibly against the mining company by the family, which as I read in an article today is most likely going to go down in the near future. I perceived this when I used the radical houses. maybe this is me "drawing in dots" again, but in a way that the chart supports and alludes to.

[archergirl]

Hi Ra-d,

In many charts you can use both the radix AND turned houses; this is used frequently in questions pertaining to death and illness, actually. So, for example, you can look at the turned houses of death for whoever the subject of the chart is (my grandmother, for example, the radix 7th, so the 4th and 8th houses from the 7th), and then look at the significators for the 4th and 8th in the radix chart, and any applications. I'm not sure why this works, but it does. So I'm sure you're right about the lawsuit. The whole episode is a catastrophe; I only pray that the miners, if they indeed did die (which seems highly likely), died quickly. A long slow death in the dark is not my idea of 'a good death'. :( :(


mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning. Yes, I'm sure you're right. But for whatever reason, this chart (or perhaps the question itself) is flawed; with the Moon being in Via Combusta as Starlink pointed out, the situation itself is very unstable. The Moon is in VERY bad shape: in fall, VOC, in a cadent house, disposed by a malefic; this should be taken as a general warning about the chart itself. Read at our peril, I suppose.

AG:)

[RayAustin]

Hi Ra-d,
A long slow death in the dark is not my idea of 'a good death'. :( :(

yeah, I aggree.



Yes, I'm sure you're right. But for whatever reason, this chart (or perhaps the question itself) is flawed; with the Moon being in Via Combusta as Starlink pointed out, the situation itself is very unstable. The Moon is in VERY bad shape: in fall, VOC, in a cadent house, disposed by a malefic; this should be taken as a general warning about the chart itself. Read at our peril, I suppose.

AG:)
The reception of the mars by moon is making sense to me..

the moon is in a really bad state, but being received by mars, its house, it being a "guest" in normally hostile environment I think shows that there will be consolation from the death, perhaps as remuneration (money).

the family as the news has described is angry that rescuers & the mining company aren't trying hard enough, so they think anyway--the consolation may be money from the company, why do I say that?

well the news says the mining company is interested in mining at the location of the tragedy still because there are still coal deposits worth money (but they obviously don't want the family to know this). Maybe the company will be giving some of the proceeds from any future ventures to the family--whether they want to, or not. This could be the real grounds for lawsuit, the final nail in the coffin for the family.

unless that is, being disposed by the *malefic*, big offender in this chart means there is no consolation at all.. still the grounds for lawsuit..

[starlink]

Oh common AG, I cannot imagine you being a GRIM Saturn type! You are just a good teacher, and we need that here in the Forum because lots of us have strong Neptunes in our natal charts and lots of Gemini, very nice but at times a bit superficial and the combi makes for great imagination and less down to earthness so to speak.( I am talking about generalities here, no one in particular) So a good anchor is needed here!!

[starlink]

Oh yes Ra, you could be very right there. I would not be surprised at all, in the end all that matters to them is making money by mining more coal. How sad all this is, just awful.

[archergirl]

he moon is in a really bad state, but being received by mars, its house, it being a "guest" in normally hostile environment I think shows that there will be consolation from the death, perhaps as remuneration (money).


I don't see where you are getting this from the chart.:confused: That the Moon is disposited by Mars has nothing to do with money, or consolation; Mars is utterly peregrine, and as it rules the house of imprisonment in this chart, offers only the idea that the miners have been imprisoned; as the 12th is also the house of self-undoing, the miners brought it upon themselves somehow. The Moon views Mars by face; Mars views Mercury by face; Mercury views Mars by term AND face; so they are all linked. The VOC moon is still VOC, however; and usually it signifies that nothing further will come of the matter, full stop. This may show that the search for them has been/will be called off, and no-one will know for sure; discovering 'their fate'? Nothing will come of the matter. They are buried.

Remember, this question is only about the *fate of the miners*, not about whether the families will sue or whether the mine will continue to operate: those things are separate from the life or death issue of the miners themselves. To search for those other things in a chart with an early ascendant and such a debilitated, void moon may not yield the answers one would like.

Perhaps an *event* chart for the time of the collapse of the mine would be a valuable tool to look at, and may show these other things much better. Event charts tend to have a better 'big picture' focus (and are really more appropriate than horary charts for widely-publicized things: see the 'Find Madeleine thread' for several heated arguments about this). Horary is more specific; the question makes the answer. .

Cheers,
AG:)

[archergirl]

I was also wondering what the significance of Mercury's imminent change to Virgo, its place of exaltation, means. I had considered whether the miners would be found and brought out of the mine (being 'lifted' by exaltation, and moving out from under combustion of the Sun). This is a possibility, I suppose, but with everything else so malefic, and the VOC moon, I suspect this chance is slim.:(

AG:)

[RayAustin]

I don't see where you are getting this from the chart.:confused: That the Moon is disposited by Mars has nothing to do with money, or consolation; looking at how mars applied to the radical houses and their rulers I was using, this was a conjecture of mine. since you weren't doing that, of course it wouldn't make sense to you.

Remember, this question is only about the *fate of the miners*, not about whether the families will sue or whether the mine will continue to operate: those things are separate from the life or death issue of the miners themselves.

yes i know ? :rolleyes: doesn't mean peripheral information is not being conveyed within the chart. the family suing stuff is not obvious, apparent or direct in any concrete form in the chart, it is suggested conjecture that may apply to the situation. nothing wrong with illustrating what you think the chart *also* describes. as things progress only then can we prove that such is irrelevant.

I can see you are focused on the specifics and the relevant, I am too, however I also like to look as deep and wide as I can. It is after all only relative speculation isn't it?

-rayA

[RayAustin]

I was also wondering what the significance of Mercury's imminent change to Virgo, its place of exaltation, means. I had considered whether the miners would be found and brought out of the mine (being 'lifted' by exaltation, and moving out from under combustion of the Sun). This is a possibility, I suppose, but with everything else so malefic, and the VOC moon, I suspect this chance is slim.:(

AG:)

It brings to me the idea of "details" possibly coming to light.

[archergirl]

But Ra-d,

I *was* using the radical houses, with the miners taking the first. :rolleyes: You were using a turned chart, with the 4th or whatever as the signficator. That's not a radical chart; that's a turned one. ;)

doesn't mean peripheral information is not being conveyed within the chart. the family suing stuff is not obvious, apparent or direct in any concrete form in the chart, it is suggested conjecture that may apply to the situation. nothing wrong with illustrating what you think the chart *also* describes. as things progress only then can we prove that such is irrelevant.

No it doesn't, and no there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but I personally think conjecture in horary is a dangerous road to follow. I wouldn't spend my 50 bucks on an astrologer who conjectured that my chart said such-and-such, that's for sure. I'd want one that stuck to the question, and the facts! What about if this was a health question, and the astrologer conjectured that you had terminal cancer, when you asked a question about a minor surgery? Mix art with discretion, Lilly said, and it applies in every chart you do.

AG:)

[River]

post deleted

[RayAustin]

But Ra-d,

I *was* using the radical houses, with the miners taking the first. :rolleyes: You were using a turned chart, with the 4th or whatever as the signficator. That's not a radical chart; that's a turned one. ;)
well, whatever, you know what i'm trying to express, we weren't using the same methods so why would you have the same insights or therefore understand mine clearly? that is the point. do we really need to get into semantics?



No it doesn't, and no there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but I personally think conjecture in horary is a dangerous road to follow. I wouldn't spend my 50 bucks on an astrologer who conjectured that my chart said such-and-such, that's for sure. I'd want one that stuck to the question, and the facts!

AG:)
of course it's a dangerous road! i completely agree! but:

no one was paying me and I already covered lividly with my long post the "facts" of the chart. I already stated what was "fact", the other things we are discussing currently are my speculations, suspicions, and conjecture.

through experience so far I have found that these prompts/suspicions often ring true in the background or lead somewhere. I would not, if someone was paying me say something that is only an educated guess. looking at the turned charts and putting suggestions out there was for my own pleasure and execution of my fascination. hm.. why are we talking about this again ?

anyway, each reader is entilted to their own perception.

rayA

[archergirl]

No, I absolutely agree, everyone has different methods. :) For me, the VOC moon in such bad shape is enough to avoid any kind of extrapolation on the chart, really; and what with the early ascendant, I am quite sure more information will come to light before the end. Hence my caution.

Cheers,
AG:)

[20questions]

Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".
Hi. This is really interesting and on the one hand I am inclined to say "yes": this is a subjective chart...a chart only really reflectling my own subjective concerns and not giving an answer about the status of the miners themselves.... I have had other horaries like this: I will be really invested in a topic and ask a question about it: the horary chart will seem to be saying something objective about the subject of concern but instead, at a closer look,the chart is actually really talking about my very personal reaction to the theme. There is nothing objective being revealed in the horary chart at all. Anyway, that's a big posibilty. The void of course moon and the ascendant at less than 2 degrees seem to champion that interpretation. Clearly there is "not enough information yet". But I'm not sure that rules out other things in the chart. There are very clear cut features in the chart which stand out above everything. Mars is so prominent in the 1st house squaring that conglomoration in the 4th; Jupiter is so well graced by sign and position and plays a prominent role due to being in opposition to mars and square to the planets in the 4th House...and, Neptune in the 10th opposite the 4th planets.? . What does it all mean? Is it all objective commenatary on what happened to the miners. Or does it reflect public concern about what happened to the miners? Or, does it instead reflect my own personal worry about what happened to the miners, being the framer of the question? I figure that these are the important questions when trying to figure out how to analyze charts like these. ...

[20questions]

Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.


Cheers,
AG:)
Yep, just to emphasize, I was attributing the miners to the 1st house and leaving myself out of the equation- I don't have any personal relationship to them whatsoever. However, on reading Ra's analysis, I am really willing to consider that my own subjective interest is reflected in the chart, if not the focus of it :O....that's the hard part. How does my own involvement change the interpretation?

[archergirl]

Hi there 20questions,

The 7th house comment was directed toward Ra-D, not yourself, btw.

What does it all mean? Is it all objective commenatary on what happened to the miners. Or does it reflect public concern about what happened to the miners? Or, does it instead reflect my own personal worry about what happened to the miners, being the framer of the question? I figure that these are the important questions when trying to figure out how to analyze charts like these. ...

It could reflect all of these; it could reflect none of these. With the early ascendant and that terrible VOC Moon, most traditionally-inclined astrologers would throw the question out without bothering to read it. These were both a part of Lilly's Considerations Before Judging a Chart.

The reason I wouldn't turn this chart, and would use the 1st house to represent the miners as opposed to the 4th or 7th or whatever, despite your 'involvement' in the story, is this: to use the 1st for you, the querent, implies some sort of vested subjective relationship with the outcome of the question; in other words, what happens to the quesited affects you in some way, even if it's only a reflexive result. The 1st represents the self; the 7th or 4th or 11th reflects other people in relation to oneself.

The fact of the matter is, unless you have family amongst the miners, this situation doesn't affect you personally, apart from perhaps being plugged into the collective zeitgeist of it, much the way uninvolved people involve themselves in missing children cases, or whatever.

Therefore, no matter how distraught you may be feeling, the *core* of the question is: what happened to the miners? and not 'how does the fate of the miners affect me?' I think people get over-excited about reading themselves into every chart they do, much like using the 7th house to represent the astrologer in times past. Most of the time, this isn't necessary, and adds to the confusion, especially for students new to horary. Horary is confusing enough!:p I think your choice of the 1st for the miners was the most sound, 20questions.

Cheers,
AG:)

[20questions]

The reason I wouldn't turn this chart, and would use the 1st house to represent the miners as opposed to the 4th or 7th or whatever, despite your 'involvement' in the story, is this: to use the 1st for you, the querent, implies some sort of vested subjective relationship with the outcome of the question; in other words, what happens to the quesited affects you in some way, even if it's only a reflexive result. The 1st represents the self; the 7th or 4th or 11th reflects other people in relation to oneself.

The fact of the matter is, unless you have family amongst the miners, this situation doesn't affect you personally, apart from perhaps being plugged into the collective zeitgeist of it, much the way uninvolved people involve themselves in missing children cases, or whatever.

Therefore, no matter how distraught you may be feeling, the *core* of the question is: what happened to the miners? and not 'how does the fate of the miners affect me?' I think people get over-excited about reading themselves into every chart they do, much like using the 7th house to represent the astrologer in times past. Most of the time, this isn't necessary, and adds to the confusion, especially for students new to horary. Horary is confusing enough!:p

Cheers,
AG:)

Yes, what you just said is my take on it as well and I'm sorry if I came off otherwise. I am actually not interested in my own 'emotional response' to all this at all and that was not my purpose for posting this horary :) Ugh, I really don't care to make this a discussion about my 'emotional involvement' in the fate of these people. Instead, I sent out this horary asking 'what happened to those miners' and my initial reaction was to take the horary chart as an objective answer to that question. But "Ra... " (sorry 'ra', I don't have your full name on hand!) raised some good points about my own subjetive emotions affecting the chart. I think it's really legitimate. I would like to think that this is a chart objectivively answering the question I asked of it. But "Ra" gave some good points leaning to the side that the chart was in fact just reflecting my own subjective feelings. In that case, there's really nothing objective being answered about the miners' status at all in this chart. I personally think there is something to be gleaned of their fate but I think it's tricky. I want to differentiate the subjuctive from the objective.

[RayAustin]

Yes, what you just said is my take on it as well and I'm sorry if I came off otherwise. I am actually not interested in my own 'emotional response' to all this at all and that was not my purpose for posting this horary :) Ugh, I really don't care to make this a discussion about my 'emotional involvement' in the fate of these people. Instead, I sent out this horary asking 'what happened to those miners' and my initial reaction was to take the horary chart as an objective answer to that question. But "Ra... " (sorry 'ra', I don't have your full name on hand!) raised some good points about my own subjetive emotions affecting the chart. I think it's really legitimate. I would like to think that this is a chart objectivively answering the question I asked of it. But "Ra" gave some good points leaning to the side that the chart was in fact just reflecting my own subjective feelings. In that case, there's really nothing objective being answered about the miners' status at all in this chart. I personally think there is something to be gleaned of their fate but I think it's tricky. I want to differentiate the subjuctive from the objective.]


it's rayA :)

oh but not at all!
don't feel like your question hasn't been answered.. really, even though I used you in the chart, even still, your personal involvement was hardly mentioned and was very minimal, I did mention you in my explanation but it was mostly about the miners, I was only making observations of the querent, you.

Just because I used you in the chart doesn't mean the chart is therefore subjective and displaying your feelings only, it really isn't. I did not interpret just from your point of view.

When I used you your feelings were conveyed but the main focus of the chart is on the the event, even still.. it *still* is objective.

I really wanted to give you the kind of answer you were looking for, in the objective way and I did for the most part. :) :) I think me and AG gaggling about interpretations technicalities distracted the focus of the thread, unfortunately. Anyway, there's always going to be some level of subjectivity, after all, we *are* on the other side of things.


rayA

[archergirl]

'gaggling'?!:p

In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG:)

[RayAustin]

'gaggling'?!:p
:p


In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG:)

I concur. Well we need old farts to preserve the old ways. :p

[20questions]

'gaggling'?!:p

In any case, it's a pretty general consensus that horary charts for these kinds of questions don't work very well; event charts can tell us a lot more, and a lot more objectively, since there is no querent to make it messy!

I'm a bit of a purist old horary fart; I prefer to keep horary for questions of genuine, personal importance to the person asking, and avoid 'just wondering' questions, or using horary charts to find answers to globally-publicized events, simply because the answers to those rarely seem to amount to much more than speculation, which isn't really helpful in the big picture.

Cheers,
AG:)

Ahem! I'm sorry but I don't accept your interpretation of my horary question! It's no big deal and I have appreciated your commentary but I did not ask this horary or post it as a frivilous question. I am very discriminating in what questions I ask of horary and this was a question that meant something to me. The chart seemed very significant in terms of its layout which is why I posted it to this forum. No more, no less. Your commentary was great and I appreciated it. Best luck to you in the future and maybe I will come in contact with you elsewhere.

[RayAustin]

Ahem! I'm sorry but I don't accept your interpretation of my horary question! It's no big deal and I have appreciated your commentary but I did not ask this horary or post it as a frivilous question. I am very discriminating in what questions I ask of horary and this was a question that meant something to me. The chart seemed very significant in terms of its layout which is why I posted it to this forum. No more, no less. Your commentary was great and I appreciated it. Best luck to you in the future and maybe I will come in contact with you elsewhere.


well that's the first!
some people. :rolleyes:

[starlink]

Hello all! This "to and fro" is actually very good because we can find out peoples priorities, intentions, background feelings about the matter asked , interpretation methods etc. Writing in a forum is good for these sort of things. Everyone can have their say and opinion, BUT we are also here to learn from each other.
The question was maybe indeed seriously meant, but it was not an urgent personal question. Urgent personal questions, usually give the best answers from the chart. More general questions, no matter how serious one is about the situation (who is not in THIS situation which is horrendous indeed) tend to get less accurate or very generalised answers. These sort of questions are far better actually when one asks for a YES or NO answer, like: Will so and so become the next president? Or: Will Roger Federer win again in Wimbledon?
But if we ask: How will this president rule our country, or: what is the fate of Roger Federer when he looses Wimbledon?, then we get a less defined answer, usually. And more often than not we get too early or too late Ascendants and VOC or otherwise badly placed Moons. This is how I have seen it many times over.

[archergirl]

Yes, don't take what I said the wrong way, 20questions. I never said this was a frivolous question; only that this question doesn't, if you look at it objectively, have a direct impact on your personal life. Hence my suggestion that these charts are best left to event astrology. There is also a problem with horaries for these questions as there will be a hundred other people out there also doing horaries, so whose chart is the right one, if any? If you do an event chart (and I think you can find data on the time of the explosion, btw) you may find the entire situation laid out before you in a most elegant manner, with a much clearer reading of it. Sometimes, horary really *isn't* the way to go, and that's something I guess you pick up as you study it.

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions. ;)

Cheers,
AG:)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Obviously 20questions is not as interested in this event as they would seem since they wouldn't provide us the data. :rolleyes:

The data for the event is:
August 5th, 2007
2:48am
Huntington, Utah, USA. ;)

I always get confused when it comes to event charts. I have to debate with myself about what gets what house. I know whatever caused the event takes the Ascendant, so this would be whatever caused the mine to collapse and the Descendant would be the mine itself since it's what's being acted on...yes? Though, I do want to put the mine as the Fourth house, especially since this makes the cause and the mine the same thing, so perhaps this is just showing the mines collapse on itself. Also the Twelfth ruler is conjunct the IC line, the mine undid itself? Well that would make sense.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Ryoin/Charts/untitled.jpg

[RayAustin]

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions. ;)

Cheers,
AG:)

15 years seems enough to be an expert to me. :)

[starlink]

Hello KnS!! Long time no seen. Hope you are not still moaning about your Solar Return! :). I cannot help you with this one, I am not into event charts.(yet) Maybe AG knows the answers to this. I only know that mines belong to the 4th house and maybe yes, the event itself is the 1st. cheers, Star.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Hahaha. I'm good, Starlink. No, I'm okay with my SR, I'll deal with it one day at a time. ;)

I do hope it is the First house for what caused the mine collapse. I know in Event charts the initiator of the event is the first and what is acted upon is the Seventh. So, that would make whatever caused the mine to collapse the First and the mine itself the Seventh, but a mine could also be the Fourth. Hm hm hm... I just wonder what the importance of Pluto on the Descendant is...

[archergirl]

Hah, I am even less of an expert on event charts, but this one has some very interesting things going on. Note Pluto conjunct the DSC, and Venus (ruler of the 12th of 'hidden things' and the 5th of risks) right on the 4th cusp, the house of mines. KNS is on the right track with the 1st/4th representing the mine collapsing on itself, I think.

The miners themselves are possibly represented by the 6th house: laborers and 'servants': they were serving the mine. Mars, the 6th ruler, is in terrible condition. Either that, or because the miners were the victims, they would be given the 7th, with that Pluto right there.

I'm going to go off and study this chart awhile, then give my thruppence worth on it. I do wish Draco were around; he's ace at event charts! :D

Thanks for putting up the chart, KNS!

Best,
AG:)

[freedomlover]

Kaiousei,

I was discussing the mine disaster with a friend, who told me that 3 rescuers had been killed. (Something I didn't know - no tv.) He said he was wondering if they could still be alive, since it had only been a week or so. I quickly replied that a post on the astrology forum I belonged to gave the date as August 5, so the chances of the miners being alive were slim to none. My friend went to check out the date on the internet. He came up with the time of occurrence as: August 6, 2007 @ 1:48am. (8:48 UTC)
This was from the following link:

http://seismo.berkeley.edu/~peggy/Utah20070806.htm (http://seismo.berkeley.edu/%7Epeggy/Utah20070806.htm)

Not trying to be nit-picky, but a factual time is important for an event chart. Just wondering.....

Freedomlover

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Oh no no, not at all Freedom I completely understand. I actually had to guess some on this chart and I wasn't very happy with that. Give me a bit to try and find the articles I used. I'll edit them in when I find them.

Got the town here, it's titled Huntington. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-06-utah-earthquake_N.htm)

Ho ho, it seems you are correct and I have the wrong day.

At Crandall Canyon, there has been little evidence that the six miners survived the initial Aug. 6 collapse.

I really had to guess the day, I found an article that said '11 days ago' and it was dated the 16th, So, 11-16=5, I don't know what's up with that though, I guess reporters can't count days or the story ran early.

As for the time, I found another site (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6656148) that said 2:48.

2:48 a.m.: Crandall Canyon mine collapse traps six miners.

I'm sorry everyone, it seems I got the right place and time, but wrong day.

This is the correct chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Ryoin/Charts/Miners.jpg

Okay, luckily very little has changed. The one thing I do think to be much more interesting is Luna's change. Luna's next aspect is a Square to Saturn, lord of the Eighth, she then conjuncts Mars and will transfer the light of Saturn to him. Mars is the lord of the Sixth (which Archergirl took to be the miners) and the Eleventh house (which I think is the rescuers since the Eleventh deals with friends and benefactors). I think this signifies the deaths of both the miners and the rescuers as the outcome as this martian conjunction is Luna's last aspect in the Sign of Taurus.

Mercury has become further Combust, making the cause more difficult to see.

I'm sorry about the misleading chart everyone, this is really quite an embarassing moment for me. Hopefully my interpretations will help me regain my honor. :D

[freedomlover]

Kaiousei,

Thanks for being so cool! It's all for the sake of accuracy, eh?

A question, though.... the time was UTC... is that the same as Greenwich?

And, if so, Mountain time, which Utah is on, is 7 hours behind Greenwich according to my calculations. So, do you think the 2:48am (6 hours behind) that you found is because of Daylight Savings Time? I couldn't figure it out at first, then the DST idea occurred to me.... Just curious....... I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you.... :o

Freedomlover

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Yep, all for accuracy. I'm glad you caught me.

I think it is the same, I don't really know what's up with it. MST is seven hours behind, the six hours behind would make it in my time zone, but I don't know why the Salt Lake Tribune would be using CDT times in their chronology.

Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.> :P

Now...if you'll excuse me...Who Wants to be a Superhero is on!!! :D

[freedomlover]

Kaiousei,

Even in the chart I posted it says 8:48 for the Universal time...so I guess it's okay. <.< We may never really know... >.> :P

I think we have our answer......
I'm so spoiled by AstroDienst, since they figure all these things for you.... :o

I can't believe I didn't notice it was an AstroDienst chart! They would have taken DST into account. So.... the 2:48 would be accurate, I would think.

But as to accuracy.... like you said, nothing changed a whole lot. It might be important for timing, though? But, of course, the more exact the time, the better the chart.. so.... we make a good team, Kaiousei!

Freedomlover

[20questions]

Yes, don't take what I said the wrong way, 20questions. I never said this was a frivolous question; only that this question doesn't, if you look at it objectively, have a direct impact on your personal life. Hence my suggestion that these charts are best left to event astrology. There is also a problem with horaries for these questions as there will be a hundred other people out there also doing horaries, so whose chart is the right one, if any? If you do an event chart (and I think you can find data on the time of the explosion, btw) you may find the entire situation laid out before you in a most elegant manner, with a much clearer reading of it. Sometimes, horary really *isn't* the way to go, and that's something I guess you pick up as you study it.

I think I explained myself and my POV pretty clearly, actually. I've been studying horary for about fifteen years, off and on; I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it long enough to have reasons for my suggestions. ;)

Cheers,
AG:)

Yep, that's a really decent explanation and I am listening. I'll still probably look into this chart for potential answers just because the things going on within the chart are all so focussed. I am really not very schooled in horary per se but when a chart is so crystallized, I figure it has something to tell. So, it will be interesting trying to figure out the chart's message. Really appreciate everyone's commentary so far. Raya, I thought your interpretation was super great and it was really thought provoking in terrms of where to go next :)


Ps: "Aug 6th 2007, 2:46 am, Huntingtin Utah" are my details for the event chart.

[RayAustin]

the moon is void of course in this chart right ?

well I found it interesting that it was, as I was reading a definition on the site for void of course, an atrology wiki:


a void of course indicates that there will be no changes in the current situation.
makes one wonder about the fate of the miners, especially with the via combusta too.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

If you're talking about the event chart, Luna still has to Square Saturn and Conjoin with Mars...

[freedomlover]

ArcherGirl wrote:

as the 12th is also the house of self-undoing, the miners brought it upon themselves somehow.
Kaiousei wrote:

Though, I do want to put the mine as the Fourth house, especially since this makes the cause and the mine the same thing, so perhaps this is just showing the mines collapse on itself. Also the Twelfth ruler is conjunct the IC line, the mine undid itself? Well that would make sense.
I thought you might find this information interesting:

At Crandall Canyon, the miners were working at depths that test the limits of safety. Although Murray denies it, federal regulatory officials say that retreat mining was being practiced. Retreat mining is a perilous technique in which pillars of coal hold up portions of the roof, and when the area is mined, the pillars are pulled down, capturing the useful coal and collapsing the roof.
This is an excerpt from this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/the-utah-mine-disaster-d_b_60899.html

The article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired..... :o

Also,

20 Questions wrote:

I asked: what happened to the Utah miners.
My take on it, reading the 4th house, end of the matter, is this:
The miners are Venus(r) in Leo moving away from the Sun in Leo. I see this as their life energy fading away (moving farther away from their vitality- the Sun). The Moon is in their house in Scorpio, the sign of life and death. The last aspect it makes before it leaves its sign is a square to Mercury at 29* Leo in the 4th - a critical degree.

Medically, Mercury in Leo deals with this:

Mercury afflicted in Leo gives a tendency to pain in the back, fainting, and palpitation of the heart.
I would say that this says that the life or death struggle was ended by a combination of Leo/Gemini things. Gemini/Mercury rules respiratory and Leo rules exhaustion and back trouble. So probably they were pinned, unable to move, and there was not enough air. Have you ever been in a car with a bunch of people talking for a long time and noticed how it heats up the atmosphere of the car? I suspect that what little air was left heated up and the oxygen ran out - they probably passed out from heat and lack of oxygen. Also, Gemini/Mercury rules the nervous system, so the panic, along with everything else, could have caused heart attacks, as well. Something along those lines.

Not a pretty picture, I know, but that's the way I see the chart answering your question, "What happened to the Utah miners?"

[RayAustin]

the article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired..... :o it was meeeeee! :p


I would say that this says that the life or death struggle was ended by a combination of Leo/Gemini things. Gemini/Mercury rules respiratory and Leo rules exhaustion and back trouble. So probably they were pinned, unable to move, and there was not enough air. Have you ever been in a car with a bunch of people talking for a long time and noticed how it heats up the atmosphere of the car? I suspect that what little air was left heated up and the oxygen ran out - they probably passed out from heat and lack of oxygen. Also, Gemini/Mercury rules the nervous system, so the panic, along with everything else, could have caused heart attacks, as well. Someting along those lines.

Not a pretty picture, I know, but that's the way I see the chart answering your question, "What happened to the Utah miners?"

early on reading the chart, I did have suspicions that they died of lack of oxygen.. it was the pisces thing--I sort of thought drowning in a sense, but obviously not in water--just the fact of lack of air.. but that seemed too loose and weird.

but anyway, I did suggest that the miners, or actually most importantly--the *mining company* was aware, they were all most likely aware that the area was at risk but there were valuable coal deposits.. the latter of that sentence I gathered from the news.


Murray, a self-made millionaire, owns companies producing more than 20 million tons of coal annually. He's known as a hard-driving executive who pushes the limits in his mines, seeking to extract the last dime from the coal.


and quote:


But if the conditions were unsafe, surely the workers would join together to avoid risking their lives. CNN.com reports that workers were concerned but feared reprisals if they spoke out. They had no union. Bizarrely, days after the miners were trapped, Murray went on a wild rant against the United Mine Workers, suggesting that they were using the tragedy to try to organize the mine. But sadly for the workers, the UMWA wasn't there to stand up for them.


oh I love conspiracy theories, not so much when it's actually costing people their lives, though ...

blahhh. :mad: i can't stand filthy greed!

[freedomlover]

Ra-div,

the article also talks about cover-ups and lies involving the powers-that-be. Someone on this thread (AG, I think) stated that the chart suggested alot of this. I tried to find the quote, but it's late, and my eyes were tired..... :o it was meeeeee! :p
Sorry for the misquote:o

I also did not read the entire thread line for line. ( I have trouble focusing on large blocks of information - can only process small bites right now.) But I remembered reading earlier in the thread the other day what Kaiousei said about the mine collapsing in on itself. So, when I saw that article, I thought, "Hmmm..... dangerous mining technique where they cause the mine to collapse in on itself in patches.... hmmm." So I thought I"d post the article. When I went back to find Kaousei's quote, I noticed ArcherGirl's, too. And yours, r a, just got a little confused.

Anyway, I was sickened by the article, too. I don't know how anybody can live with themselves knowing they deliberately put others at risk -- and all to line their pockets.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Anyway, I was sickened by the article, too. I don't know how anybody can live with themselves knowing they deliberately put others at risk -- and all to line their pockets.

blahhh. :mad: i can't stand filthy greed!

Okay, I'm not really big into conspiracy theories and whatnot, but something about these two quotes caught my attention. So, I decided to check the chart.

My first idea was to turn the chart to get the house that represented the corporation. So, the Tenth from the Sixth (as the bossess of the miners) is the Third, ruled by Leo, the most powerful planet in the chart. Then I thought that turning it might be silly, and the radical Tenth house might be the heads of the corporation. Well, this is Jupiter, the second most powerful planet in the chart (if he weren't retrograde). I thought it very strange that both ways had the corporation responsible for this mess shown by the two most powerful planets, and both with no afflictions. Especially when you consider the significators for the miners and the rescuers are so weak. Hmm...

Food for thought.

[20questions]

I hope you guys don’t mind if I just throw out some things about this Event Chart. I’ve been looking at it but I don’t know what planet to use as the significator in the end. I was thinking Saturn because it rules miners but Archergirl brought up the ruler of the 6th governing employees and servants and that seems just as legitimate. But I’ll just launch off from my original assumption and see if it leads anywhere. First, am I right in thinking that separating aspects at the time of the chart would be describing the background to the event? And applying aspects would signify what happens next? If Saturn is the significator, then the conjunction to Venus and the square to Mars, which are both separating, would describe the backdrop to the collapse or even the reasons for the collapse? The applying trine to Pluto would then seem to describe what actually happened to the miners following the collapse? (As well as aspects to the moon) The trine from Saturn to Pluto is almost exactly exact ( it lacks like 30 minutes or something), which seems to say “immediate death” but Saturn is a slow moving planet so it would, in fact, have taken a while to perfect. Ugh, I’m probably bringing too much natal astrology into this. I know that ‘timing’ in mundane astrology has to do with the houses that the planets under consideration occupy and not their natural planetary speed :eek:





Anyway. There were some other things I wanted to bring up as well.





1) Jupiter in the 6th house of health is very exalted. Jupiter is in its ruler ship sign, Sag, and it is trine the Sun, which is also in its ruler ship sign, Leo. And the Sun is located in the same house where the miners’ significator is located, the 3rd. And in an instance of synchronicity, Jupiter is located in the same house as Pluto, the most obvious force for death in the chart. In other words: we see very strong planets signifying “health” which are located in the same houses where strong planets signifying a “death influence” are located. That seems to me to signal a struggle between life and death and to say that they did not die immediately.



Ugh, I won’t ramble much more about this but I also think it’s significant that all the significators to do with mines and miners in this chart have ties to the planet Mercury, and by extension, to the theme of “communication”. Saturn, natural ruler of miners is in the 3rd house. The 4th house, governing both “mines” and the “end of matters” is ruled by mercury. I don’t know what to make of that but it seems significant... The theme of “communication” seems related to the issue of their “life and death”. I know that’s a pretty convenient interpretation from the news reports but I am trying to just go by what’s shown in the chart itself. . Anyway, sheesh, I’ll hold off on looking at the moon for the time being.





Ps: @ Kaiousei no Senshi (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=3113) ….I thought that was a pretty remarkable interpretation of the moon in this chart and it does seem to really reflect what happened later with the rescue workers.



Anyway, I look forward to comments here.

Ps, sorry for the weird fonts. I don't know what's up with that and I can't seem to fix it, lol! :confused:

[20questions]

I thought it might be actually useful to compare this chart with another "mine disaster chart" that happened in early 2006 and where we at least know what really happened: It was the Sago Mine Explosion and 12 of 13 trapped miners died. They died of asphyxiation following an explosion ( it's easy to reearch so I won't bother posting any links here). It might help to compare the 2 charts. Ugh, again I don't know if I can post more than a link to a chart but maybe someone, if they are interested, can actually host the whole chart on the website?

http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/hoosuzanne/?action=view&current=astro_w2gw_129_sago_mine_hp20613.10052.gif


http://%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/hoosuzanne/astro_w2gw_129_sago_mine_hp20613.10052.gif%5B/IMG%5D
http://%3Ca%20href=%22http://photobucket.com%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg% 20src=%22http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/hoosuzanne/astro_w2gw_129_sago_mine_hp20613.10052.gif%22%20bo rder=%220%22%20alt=%22Photo%20Sharing%20and%20Vide o%20Hosting%20at%20Photobucket%22%3E%3C/a%3E
(http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/hoosuzanne/?action=view&current=astro_w2gw_129_sago_mine_hp20613.10052.gif )

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Jupiter does not rule the house of health. He rules the house of accident and disease. Jupiter is very strong and domiclie and triplicity and we know that this is very appropriate since the power of the accident was so great. The only thing I think is slightly weird is that Jupiter is cadent. Jupiter Trines Sol, the lord of the third, as the ruler of rumors. We hear rumors that they may be alive, but I seriously doubt it by this chart. I think it's interesting that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart and the accident seems to have been caused by this retreat mining method they employed.

Anyone else notice the Lord of rumors Beams the cause and the mine? hm...

[20questions]

Jupiter does not rule the house of health. He rules the house of accident and disease. Jupiter is very strong and domiclie and triplicity and we know that this is very appropriate since the power of the accident was so great. The only thing I think is slightly weird is that Jupiter is cadent. Jupiter Trines Sol, the lord of the third, as the ruler of rumors. We hear rumors that they may be alive, but I seriously doubt it by this chart. I think it's interesting that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart and the accident seems to have been caused by this retreat mining method they employed.

Anyone else notice the Lord of rumors Beams the cause and the mine? hm...

Kaiousei- Hi. No I wasn't saying that Jupiter ruled the 6th, just that it is in the 6th and because it is so strong it would seem to lend a protective influence to their health. It looks like Mars/Pluto rules the 6th and that is pretty violent. I just thought Jupiter being placed there, and being quite strong, might signify some kind of ability on the part of the miners to be able to withstand the initial collapse...at least initially. My guess from both this chart and also the time elapsed since the collapse is that the miners have died :( I think everyone thinks that at this point :(. But looking to the chart for answers: I'm just not sure if they died immediately because of the collapse or if they died because they were not found in time. I brought up the theme of 'mecury' and 'communication' because, if they survived the initial collapse, then communication about their whereabouts would have really been the key factor in their deaths. They weren't found in time. I thought that with Saturn so tied to "mercury themes" and ruling the house of death, that was a pretty significant possibility.