Abusive grandfather

[Lissa]

This is my grandfather's chart (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=35) I'm trying to understand his personality better.

First,I'd like to make it clear that my grandfather was never abusive with me or with any of his grandchildren,but he gave my father,my aunt and my grandmother a very hard time.To cut a long story short,he used to spank the entire family.My dad has told me about some of the things my grandfather used to do when they were younger,some really freaky things-my dad says he used to beat him with his belt or with the hose and sometimes when they were at the dinner table,if my dad started doing silly things instead of behaving(my dad has always been the playful type)my grandfather would beat my dad with a knive on his hands:(.My dad told me he once even made him blead from his eyebrow(that is so sick,what kind of father does that to his children??).

Due to all this,my aunt and dad stopped talking to him once they could get out of his house.My aunt tried to get their relationship back alive when she got married,she invited him to escourt her down to the church but he simply didn't show up.My grandfather no longer with lives with my grandmother too,even though she still works for him,but he treats her really bad;he rarely talks to her and when he does it's always in a very cold tone.Plus,he sometimes doesn't pay her,and then asks her for money.He's a gambler,I don't think he's ever been to a casino but I never knew anyone who would spend so much money on the lottery.Also,he wastes a lot of money on unnecessary things too.My grandmother could make his life hell if she wanted to,because,if she ever quits from the job,we all know we could not afford a new employee,but it seems like she is still 'attached' to him somehow,she could never turn her back on him and leave him in mysery.

Both my mom and my uncle have a really good relationship with him,so that he can keep seeing his grandchildren.And he is just totally different with us-actually I was his first grandchild and when I was little he used to surround me with so much atention,he had a lot of patience to teach me and take care of me,he even used to spoil me with presents,I even felt guilty with all the atention I got:o(he has5grandchildren now so he doesn't do it anymore lol).Still,he holded strong autorithy over us(still does),when I knew he was upset I started behaving immediately lol.

I would like to stress that my grandfather was not abused in his childhood,at least not that I know-he has a very loving relationship with his parents,particularly with his mom,they don't live near us but I never knew of anyone who phoned their parents so frequently.

My dad and my aunt survided childhood without much damage,thank God.My aunt was childless for a very long time so she used to take of me,she is very good with children but also very strict,you can't mess up with her lol.My dad-I sometimes think he must have inherited some of his dad's teaching methods,even though he never beated us,when I was little if I cried too much he used to grap a piece of soil for the plants and hand it over mouth saying he would make me eat that if I kept crying:eek:.He tried to use the hose on me once too,because I didn't clean my room,but he just hanged around at my bedroom's door with the hose on his hands and waited for me to finish cleaning.Boy,those were scary memories for a7year old,even I know I did deserve it,I was very disobedient with the room cleaning.

Looking at my grandfather's chart,I must say I was totally shocked,I was expecting to see a lot of Mars-Saturn-Pluto interaction,or at least a lot of emphasis on this signs,but none of this came true.I was just totally stunned when I saw his Pisces Moon:eek:.And they say Pisces is compassionate with other people's feelings!

Thinking more about it,his Sun/Jupiter/South Node conjunction may be implied here.Jupiter isn't always as 'good' as people think and,particularly since it is conjoined with the South Node,it would probably amplify the Aries' Sun need to dominate the home(4th house).The South Node is involved here,so it's probably a karmical thing-I think he has been chosing the easy way out all his life.Saturn gets also caught in the line between the4th/5th house,showing how he got so restrictive with his children(5th house)and the home environment(4th house matters).And he has a Saturn square Pluto,even more control issues.

The Pisces Moon makes tight squares to the out of sign Venus/Mars conjunction.The square with Mars probably makes the Pisces Moon a lot more jumpy and I believe the square to Venus amplifies the Moon's sensitivity as well-he probbaly perceived little things as personal offenses,and so tried to get back in control.The Ascendant's sextile to it's ruler magnifies that Saturnian quality as well,now I understand how come he holds such great autorithy over us with a simply look.

Still I simply can't understand why would someone do this to their family.

[starlink]

Lissa, you have a chart for us to open bottom left, but it is not your grandfathers,because it has the Moon in Aries, not in Pîsces. So I guess it is your own chart. Would you have your grandfathers chart as well? Just to have a look at it. Strange indeed that he was so nice to his grandchildren and hard to his own. Probably because he has no authority over them in the sense of being a parent. He is not on the "alert" with his grandchildren. Makes a lot of difference. Your reasoning for his character is good I think.

[flea]

Lissa,

Aries?libra is intercepted as well which may cause some imbalance in a sserting the self. The sun being in an intercepted sign, with Jupiter I think would amplify this imbalance in projection and expression of self.

love light and peace
flea

[Lissa]

Hi there Starlink and Flea,

Sorry,I thought the link was the right one.You can search in my images for the one named "grandfather".

Blessings,
Lissa

[wilsontc]

Star,

The chart is in a link at the beginning of Lissa's post: "grandfather's chart".

Explaining,

Tim

[StarNur]

Id say the Saturn in the 5th square Pluto in the 8th, and Moon square Mars are the biggies.

Have you checked the synastry between your grandfather and father and aunt as well?

My father was the same way, but I don`t really see any abusive indicators in his chart.

His abusive tendencies have more to do with a combination of his growing environment (his father was strict, he was a big man), culture, and his synastry with me, my brother and sister, than his natal chart because he didn`t lay a finger on my youngest three siblings....well maybe a few times...but definitely not as frequent as my brother and I. Ok maybe his chart too, but I dont really see it...

My father has Sag Sun opposite Uranus, Sun trine Saturn, Moon trine Mars, Mars square Jupiter and Pluto widely conjunct Saturn (about 8 degrees). I don`t know his birthtime so I cant give the houses. My father wasn`t one to pause, think and tell us what`s right and what`s wrong. He didnt have the patience for that. He was from the school of un-thought that jumping on us as soon as we made a noise would scare us out of doing it again.

[starlink]

Starnur, you wrote that your father was a Saggittarius Sun. He is ruled by Jupiter and Mars squares that Jupiter. This is already an indication of possible choleric behavior if the energies are not been used constructively. Then he acts on emotional impuls, with ease! (Mars trine Moon). Because that Mars is connected with Moon and Jupiter, I think that this is the reason why he was like that. Jupiter always expands and in this case it expands the Mars (aggressive) energy. And indeed, it could well be that you two triggered each other in a negative way. Can you see a great difference between your chart and those of your youngest siblings?

[Lissa]

Thank you everyone for your input!;)

Yes StarNur,I think Starlink is right about the Mars/Jupiter connections!Mars and Jupiter together are full of energy and are very quick when it comes to getting into action.The Saturn/Pluto aspect adds the need to control everything around him.

[StarNur]

Starlink, I didnt notice that connection with Jupiter before. You are gooood!!

Lissa, you did a great job interpreting your grandfather's chart in your first post.

I thought Mars in Virgo was one of the least aggressive placement. Still it didnt bode well with my and my brother's sensitive pisces moons. My father also has Mercury conjunct Jupiter in Sag.

And indeed, it could well be that you two triggered each other in a negative way. Can you see a great difference between your chart and those of your youngest siblings?

The first three children are Air signs, with some fire tucked in our charts. Air fuels fire, like my father. The youngest three are Earth (two virgos) and Water (scorpio).

I can see how us first three might have triggered him, why my virgo and scorpio sisters kept quiet, and my lil virgo brother??...my dad's gotten soft:

I have Gem rising, Sun/Mars/Merc in the 10th opp Jupiter/IC in Leo.
Libra brother has Mar/Uranus in the 4th sq his Leo Asc, and Pluto/MC opposite his Aries MC
Gemini sister Virgo rising, has Sun/Mars/9th opp Uranus/Jupiter/3rd in Sag, and Aries Moon.
Virgo sister Taurus Asc, Mars/Mercury square Saturn
Scorp sister has Pisces Asc, Mars in Aqua/12th square Sun/Merc and sextile Uranus/MC.
My lil Virgo brother has Gem Asc, Mars in Libra square Uranus/Neptune in Cap/8th (which aspects my father's Venus/Moon in Cap). His Jupiter is conjunct and Moon opposite my father's Mars. Yet he doesn't raise my father's temper like us first three did.

[StarNur]

I also noticed us first three all have Moon square Neptune, while the younger three have positive aspects between the Moon and Neptune (two have trines, and the youngest a sextile).

Both my parents have Moon square Neptune when I use noon as their birth time.

[starlink]

Well, isn't that interesting! Synastry seems to work again, especially here!! You three first kids are probably mirroring your dads Moon-square Neptune which he does not like. Moon square Nep., diffuse emotions, confused feelings. It makes him feel insecure when he gets confronted (subconsciously trough interaction with you guys) with his own weakness. How do you perceive that square yourself? By doing that, you probably will find out what it is that makes him so angry. He is from another generation and this square could be far more difficult to accept for him than it is for you. Moon is also the mother figure. He could have felt desillusioned by his mother and through the way you argue with him, he feels that (childhood) feeling coming up again. It does not matter whether you are a man or a woman, it is often the way you say or do things that reminds another person (him in this case) of the person in his past (his mother, sister, aunt, any female he looked up to).

[StarNur]

You three first kids are probably mirroring your dads Moon-square Neptune which he does not like. Moon square Nep., diffuse emotions, confused feelings. It makes him feel insecure when he gets confronted (subconsciously trough interaction with you guys) with his own weakness

I can't imagine what we were mirroring. Diffuse emotions makes sense to me. We weren’t raised in a household where we could comfortably share our feelings. And without a doubt that’s the way my father was raised. The way we got our feelings out was always through argument. My father had no consideration of our feelings. He didn’t realize we had them at the time and how that’s affected us. Everytime we bring up some of the beatings he gave us and speak in detail about how much we remember some of the incidents he keeps quiet, looks at the ground and blushes.

How do you perceive that square yourself?

Gosh Moon square Neptune has got to be the hardest aspect in my chart to describe. I can’t tell I have it most of the time. I guess it gives me a propensity to daydream quite often, and it does make me sensitive to other people, their intentions and it possibly makes me read people the wrong way at times, idk. I don’t feel that I’m living in an imaginary world as all the interpretations for this aspect say. I also have Saturn in a t-square with the two. My father has Capricorn moon square Neptune so it was probably difficult for him to emote. He’s never had a problem criticizing though. That’s his form of emoting.

I don’t believe my father hitting us was anything personal, most of the time. I don’t think he knew any other way to discipline us. Im sure my grandparents raised him the same way. Ive even had my grandmother hit me in my pre-teens. Plus my father was stressed out over my mother who wasn’t raising us due to her depression, and he’d bring his problems home from work. He was a diligent worker and always kept his mouth shut there. When he arrived home any attempt to yell at my mother was bound for failure because she wouldn’t react or change. She was literally a zombie. Neither of my parents were social and didn’t have any friends to talk to (which Im sure would have helped...my father has an huge need to communicate, Mer conj Jup Sag, and this would have relieved some tension he kept in the house, the square Mars).

So who’s his punching bag? His helpless and rambunctious children, who learn best by example from their parents! Let’s hope not!

He is from another generation and this square could be far more difficult to accept for him than it is for you. Moon is also the mother figure. He could have felt desillusioned by his mother and through the way you argue with him, he feels that (childhood) feeling coming up again. It does not matter whether you are a man or a woman, it is often the way you say or do things that reminds another person (him in this case) of the person in his past (his mother, sister, aunt, any female he looked up to).

Yes I agree with your first statement here. He never went into detail over how his father raised him. Maybe a few stories of what he did to the neighbours. He’s trying to open up more now that he’s older. I almost want to cringe when he does because I feel he’s hypocritical. I guess he’s changing. But I’m still mad over some of the stuff he did...i don’t think I could ever forgive him. My father apparently had a good relationship with his mother (moon conjunct venus in cap?). I think he was closer to his mother because she was home for them and his father was out traveling half the time. They all still looked up to and listened to my grandfather. My grandfather also passed away when my father was in his late teens. I don’t think my grandfather had the most respect for my grandmother though. And I could see how my father might have learned from that, though he's never touched my mother.

[starlink]

Thanks Starnur for replying so extensively and explaining the situation at home. the statement in so many books saying :living in an imaginary world, is actually only appyable to certain cases, quite often connected with the 12th house. But I do not look at Neptune in a negative way most of the time. A square from Neptune to Venus is most helpful when someone is creative. It is wonderful for art. Moon to Neptune for Music and I guess Mercury to Neptune could be very helpful when someone wants to write poems or fairy tales. The mental function (Merc.) is being stimulated (square) by the imagination (Neptune), making for very romantic writings or songs. It all depends so much on how much grounding there can be found in the chart elsewhere (like Ascendant Capricorn or Taurus), other personal planets in Earth signs and in your case probably the square from Saturn to one of them. You wrote T-square which I think is not possible when Neptune and Mercury are in square to one another. I also have Saturn in a t-square with the two
If Saturn is in T-square to both, then Neptune and Merc. have to be in opposition to each other.
All in all, you can actually only see more in synastry. The Moons are very important. If they are in elements that challenge each other, you could have emotional problems, if the Marses have different backgrounds that do not really fit well, aggression is expressed aversely. See where his Mars is and the Marses of you and the other two siblings. Maybe your Uranus aspects his Moon badly so he gets upset with you. See if you can find something there.

My father has Capricorn moon

This alone, not even looking at the square to Neptune, could make it difficult for him to express his feelings. It also makes very ambitious at times and should it be in the 6th house, than that could add criticism (also towards himself!) possible.

[StarNur]

You wrote T-square which I think is not possible when Neptune and Mercury are in square to one another.

Sorry I didn't make that clear. When i said "I have saturn in a t-square with the two," the two i was refering to were my Neptune in Sag and my Moon in Pisces.

In synastry, with my father, his Mercury/Jupiter form a t-square with my natal Moon opposite Saturn. Actually it could be a grand-cross if you include my Gemini Asc. His Mars also squares my Asc, and his Uranus is opposite my Venus.

I also have some nice synastry with my father. That's probably why I still get along with him. My Venus/Neptune conjuncts his Sun, and my Moon is sextile and my Saturn is trine his Venus/Moon. His Neptune is trine, and Mercury/Jupiter sextile my Sun.

Aghhh, I have to remind him to talk instead of yell. He yells and critisizes and doesnt even realize when he does it or how disruptive and stressful that is to others. His Sag Merc/Jup sq Mars in Virgo gets carried away and is oblivious to our peace of mind...esp my mothers. I can see why she went into depression.