Childless :(

[crabapple]

Hi ,
I am new to this forum, and a beginner in learning astrology. I haven't been able to figure this out for myself:

Is it possible for me to concieve and bear a live child?

From what I understand, the ability to get pregnant has to do with the Fifth house. I have Virgo on the fifth ( a barren sign), and a stellium with oppositions. I have only been pregnant once, and the baby didn't make it. Now I am much older and have some health problems, nor am I currently in a relationship, but I'm also in a position to be a better mother.
I'm not sure how to post my chart on here-
my data is :

Sept., 17, 1966
10:26 PM
Bronx, New York

I will really appreciate all answers.

Thanks,
Crabby

[lillyjgc]

Hi, I ran up the chart but my chart gives that stellium in house 4 and 26.16 Gemini on the ascendant....Can you tell me the time difference from GMT? Thanks lillyjgc

[johnmike59]

I find it hard to call one as nice as you "Crabby" -- and, like yourself, I am a novice here.

I am sorry for your miscarriage, but I have no doubt that you will, indeed, have a healthy and bouncing baby and that you'll be a wonderful mother. That is my wish for you!

As a fellow Virgo and a fellow New Yorker, I was compelled to reach for 'The Birthday Book' -- this book assigns an appelation to each day of the year and describes what a 'September 1st' or 'September 17' person is.

So let's see -- September 17 - "THE DAY OF PERSEVERANCE" HA! I couldn't make this up!

I am reading this first paragraph and it bodes well for you. "Facing obstacles and and overcoming them is par for the course for September 17 people. Your strengths are "persistent, tenacious, undaunted" You mention health problems and this book does mention that people born on September 17 are prone to weight problems. Something for you to consider, if, indeed, it is relevant. I am a gentleman, so do forgive me for even suggesting it in a public forum -- just reading what the book says!

Hope that encourages you and puts a smile on your face. Good luck and all the best!

John

PS. I can type out the entire page if you like. E-mail me @ johnmike1965@yahoo.com, if you like! Take good care, be of good cheer and chin up! :))

PPS. Lilly, we are in the EDT time zone, so we are 5 hours behind GMT.

[lillyjgc]

OK...Including daylight saving time this puts the asc at 11.06 Gemini...Before I go further, is this correct? (placidus cusps) Thanx, lillyjgc

[crabapple]

OK...Including daylight saving time this puts the asc at 11.06 Gemini...Before I go further, is this correct? (placidus cusps) Thanx, lillyjgc
I think the time difference is -5. I use EST-eastern standard time; my asc. is 11.19. Sorry for not getting that to you sooner... I wasn't sure what the answer was.

[crabapple]

....I was compelled to reach for 'The Birthday Book' -- this book assigns an appelation to each day of the year and describes what a 'September 1st' or 'September 17' person is....

September 17 - "THE DAY OF PERSEVERANCE" ....

I am reading this first paragraph and it bodes well for you. "Facing obstacles and and overcoming them is par for the course for September 17 people. Your strengths are "persistent, tenacious, undaunted" You mention health problems and this book does mention that people born on September 17 are prone to weight problems....

Hope that encourages you and puts a smile on your face. Good luck and all the best!

John
Hi Johnmike :),
Thanks for the kind words and your kind wishes.:D
What's your birthdate?

[lillyjgc]

Of the FIFTH HOUSE, and its
Questions
CHAP. XXXIX.

If one shall have Children, yea or no?


When this question is demanded by a man or woman, long before marriage, or by some ancient Batchelour or Maid, Whether they shall have any Child or Children, yea or not? herein generally you are to consider, whether the Signe upon the 5th, or Ascending, be of those we call Fruitfull, yea or no, (viz.. Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) and whether the Lord of the Ascendant (be the Signe what it will) or the Moon be in aspect with the Lord of the 5th house, and that aspect be either Conjunction, Sextile, Trine or Square (though Conjunction is not properly an aspect) which if it be so, and the Planet to whom the Lord of the 5th doth Apply, or is in aspect with, be free from Combustion, and other Accidentall or Essentiall misfortunes, it’s an argument the good old Batchelour or stale Maid, or whoever propounds the Question, shall have Children or Issue ere they dye; In like case judge, if the Lord of the 5th be in the Ascendant, or else the Moon, or the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon apply to the Lord of the 5th, yet if there be rendering of vertue or light one unto another, or translation of collection by or from the principall Significators, you may still continue your judgment.(william Lilly Christian astrology).

I have just included this section for consideration...

and now my own considerations...Firstly I look to the ascendant, ruled by mercury in the sign of venus. I look to the house 5 cusp, also ruled by mercury and containing a stellium opposed by saturn and chiron...mercury in H5 is semi-square mars and separating from a sextile to jupiter, mercury also separating from an opposition to saturn. The aspects to the ascendant show the moon, in fall in scorpio, inconjunct the asc, venus square the asc, pluto applying to square with it (posited on cusp of H5- and mars applying to a sextile with the asc...Many planets are not in a strong position in this chart- venus in its fall in virgo, uranus detrimented in virgo and neptune detrimented in scorpio...and the stellium opposed by saturn/chiron...that does not bode well..Your health problems are shown by the moon in fall in H6- the sun is semi-square the moon and the sun, natural ruler of H5 is applying to opposition to saturn. The proximity of so called malefic planets to your H5 cusp is also not a good sign.
The moon applies to a square with mars, a sesisquadrate to saturn, a conjunction to neptune and is inconjunct the ascendant... despite mars applying sextile to the asc, i think there is not much hope of you conceiving or bearing children....I hope life brings children into your world from some other means- perhaps the sextile of sun and jupiter may bring joy through your siblings or neighbours....Interestingly, your jupiter, exalted in cancer has this for its sabian symbol: A Greek muse weighs in golden scales just born twins"...so I'm not sure how that plays out in your life...Mars squaring neptune and the north node also mitigates against you, I'm afraid....Best wishes to you, lillyjgc

[crabapple]

....If one shall have Children, yea or no?

When this question is demanded by a man or woman...some ancient Batchelour or Maid, Whether they shall have any Child or Children, yea or not?... it’s an argument the good old Batchelour or stale Maid, or whoever propounds the Question, shall have Children or Issue ere they dye...(william Lilly Christian astrology).

....and now my own considerations... i think there is not much hope of you conceiving or bearing children....I hope life brings children into your world from some other means- perhaps the sextile of sun and jupiter may bring joy through your siblings or neighbours....Interestingly, your jupiter, exalted in cancer has this for its sabian symbol: A Greek muse weighs in golden scales just born twins"...so I'm not sure how that plays out in your life...Mars squaring neptune and the north node also mitigates against you, I'm afraid.... Best wishes to you, lillyjgc
I am highly amused to the language used by Mr. William Lilly. An "ancient,...stale maid." Reminds me of that old joke:
"Well, I never..."
"You don't get out enough!"

Forty is younger than it used to be.

You've given me a lot to think about....Although your reply is exactly what I feared, I thank you for your honesty, Lillyjgc. And thank you for the time you took to decipher my chart, and for your kind hopes and words as well.

I have had joy through my nieces and nephews....:p


....Interestingly, your jupiter, exalted in cancer has this for its sabian symbol: A Greek muse weighs in golden scales just born twins"...so I'm not sure how that plays out in your life..

I haven't done much studying of the Sabian Symbols, but have found their oracles to be strange and strangely accurate. Golden twins, eh?

[flea]

An interesting note that mercury rules both asc and 5th house. So........

whether the Lord of the Ascendant (be the Signe what it will) or the Moon be in aspect with the Lord of the 5th house, and that aspect be either Conjunction, Sextile, Trine or Square (though Conjunction is not properly an aspect) which if it be so, and the Planet to whom the Lord of the 5th doth Apply, or is in aspect with, be free from Combustion, and other Accidentall or Essentiall misfortunes, it’s an argument the good old Batchelour or stale Maid, or whoever propounds the Question, shall have Children or Issue ere they dye.

So if you assume that as the rulers are the same they are truely in aspect of eachother being one and the same??? Conundrum I must say. I too am in a similar position crabapple, in personal life, age and mercury ruling both ascendent and 5th house. I have not looked to my astrology, but my womanly intuition is of a persuation that I will indeed give birth, no matter that my logic cant quite see the how's and the why fors.

Add to this..... you manifest what you create..... and I ask you what it is you truthfully and wholely want in this life? When a decision is made and it is spoken, it is much further forward than when the object was only spoken og negatively.

Love Light and Peace
Flea

[crabapple]

An interesting note that mercury rules both asc and 5th house.

....So if you assume that as the rulers are the same they are truely in aspect of eachother being one and the same??? Conundrum I must say. I too am in a similar position crabapple, in personal life, age and mercury ruling both ascendent and 5th house. I have not looked to my astrology, but my womanly intuition is of a persuation that I will indeed give birth, no matter that my logic cant quite see the how's and the why fors.
I hope your intuition is correct for you; I hope that you and I both have children...

Add to this..... you manifest what you create..... and I ask you what it is you truthfully and wholely want in this life? When a decision is made and it is spoken, it is much further forward than when the object was only spoken og negatively.

Love Light and Peace
Flea

Hi Flea,

I realize that what you say does make a certain amount of sense- it is best to be optimistic about things. And I thank you for replying, and for hoping/wishing good for me.

I'd like to put in a bit from Starhawk's book, Truth or Dare:

Of course, our power to shape reality has limits. Reality also has the power to shape us, and its power is usually stronger than ours. We do not say, as do some fashionable New Age philosophies, that we create our own reality. Such an idea can only conceivably make sense to white, upper-middle-class Americans, and then only some of the time. It is clearly senseless and becomes a form of victim-blaming when applied, for example, to a Nicaraguan peasant child murdered by the Contras. We come into a reality that is already a given; within those sets of circumstances, we can make choices that will shape our future, but reality is a collective event and can only be changed by collective action....For action, ultimately, shapes reality. A change in consciousness changes our actions, or it is no true change...."

I believe I have manifested what I created. I believe that the natal chart shows what our soul's purpose was in being incarnated; and having a very strong and oppressive Saturn, I believe that my life has been full of lessons. One of them is "you can't always get what you want." What I want is half a dozen children and a big hearted, laughing husband :D- throw in a little garden in the back, someplace and some time to write and paint/sculpt, and I'd be stupidly happy. But what I want may mean little when it comes up against the potentials in my natal chart; it may mean nothing when it conflicts with the Karma I have created in this life.

I am certainly willing to listen to another opinion- does anyone see children for me?

Blessed Be,
Crabby

[flea]

Crabapple,

I believe that there is no requirement for happiness, you just have to chose to be happy. The conditions you put on it just serve to restrict the level of happiness in your life.

I am not sure that Western Astrology is so accurate in its definitive answers, although the story is seen quite simply after the fact. The threads where we had to express what we thought the life was like really illuminated this.

We make choices in this life like contraception, even palmistry is having a hard time dealing with what these new choices express in our hands. Things are changing in the collective which may change the outcome of any given event. I work with astrology as an energy signiture that I can chose to work with in any number of ways.

Astrology can serve to illuminate why you have not created in your life what you really want, which then serves to point you in a new direction. The subconscious can be a very tricky area to tread. So good luck with your endeavours, and may the happiness walk before you.

Love Light and peace.

[crabapple]

Crabapple,

I believe that there is no requirement for happiness, you just have to chose to be happy. The conditions you put on it just serve to restrict the level of happiness in your life.
Let's agree to disagree- I believe there are some requirements for happiness...

I am not sure that Western Astrology is so accurate in its definitive answers, although the story is seen quite simply after the fact. The threads where we had to express what we thought the life was like really illuminated this.
Sounds like an interesting thread. Do you have the title of it? I'd like to look it up.

We make choices in this life like contraception, even palmistry is having a hard time dealing with what these new choices express in our hands. Things are changing in the collective which may change the outcome of any given event. I work with astrology as an energy signiture that I can chose to work with in any number of ways.
I would certainly agree with the idea of astrology as an energy signature.Or a blueprint that shows potentials and areas of difficulty. BTW, If I have used contraception ten times in my life, that's a lot. I simply didn't get pregnant, except for once, and then the baby didn't develop properly. The only time I was on the pill was when I was single- I used it to regulate my period. In my family, you're not really seen as an adult and a contributing member of the family until you have a child. After a baby, no one can really boss you around, even if you're 15 years old. - I know that seems ridiculous, but it's a cultural thing. And I come from a massive family- for instance, I have six siblings and my mother has ten.

Astrology can serve to illuminate why you have not created in your life what you really want, which then serves to point you in a new direction. The subconscious can be a very tricky area to tread. So good luck with your endeavours, and may the happiness walk before you.
I believe it does illuminate that. From what I can see, my natal chart amply shows the genetic, endocine disease that I inherited from my father's side of the family; and my transits over the last twelve years show its progress from a hidden disease to one that I deal with daily. I wouldn't say that my barreness was a subconscious problem- it was a hidden problem throughout my teens, twenties, and into my early thirties. It was only with diagnosis and my subsequent reading of medical info that I saw why I had no children- my hormones didn't respond correctly, in a way to support a baby's attachment and subsequent growth. I thought astrology could show me the potentials for conception-But I'm not much of an astrologer- I decided to ask if another could make more sense of the tangle that is my fifth house.

Now I feel as if you want to chastise me for some decision I made. It's not like I had twenty abortions with a dirty coathanger in the back of a junked up bus, and now my womb is scarred. I did decide to incarnate in this body, with the ancestors I have...At least that's what I believe.

And in spite of my childlessness and my health problems, I am fairly happy. I even still hope to have maybe one child. A girl can dream, can't she?

Flea, I do value your opinion. Do you see any other potentials in my chart?

[flea]

Crabapple,

In no way is my stance any form of chastisment. I seek to illuminate you of my views and clarify issues if I may appear to be in line with yours when this is not the case. I am respectful of your position as I am my own. I do not seek to disuade only to present my own view without intentional bias.


Love Light and Peace
Flea

[crabapple]

Please forgive the tone of this post. I don't want to be harsh, but my Scorpio moon and Leo Mars can't let this just slide. And please note my name; I call myself Crabapple and Crabby for a reason. Sometimes I'm sweet, sometimes sour. And crabapples can be a bit astringent....

Hi Flea,
I think I must have read you wrong-

......you manifest what you create..... and I ask you what it is you truthfully and wholely want in this life? When a decision is made and it is spoken, it is much further forward than when the object was only spoken og negatively.
I felt blamed, like I not only didn't want a child, but also, I was the one who had caused my barrenness. And I was being unnecessarily negative as well, like I'd already accepted defeat.

Crabapple,

I believe that there is no requirement for happiness, you just have to chose to be happy. The conditions you put on it just serve to restrict the level of happiness in your life....
I don't entirely agree. It is more difficult to be happy while homeless, and much easier to be happy when one had adequate food, clothing, and shelter. I am a fairly happy person, and I think a child to love would add to that. Moreover, I do feel that sometimes one must accept restrictions as a reality- I am in the process of accepting my illness and the things I cannot do or have difficulty in doing because of my health; and another restrictive consideration is the child's health. I would like to avoid is passing this illness along to a child.

....We make choices in this life like contraception, even palmistry is having a hard time dealing with what these new choices express in our hands....
Here I felt you made some implication that my barrenness was my fault, perhaps because I had practiced contraception.

Astrology can serve to illuminate why you have not created in your life what you really want, which then serves to point you in a new direction. The subconscious can be a very tricky area to tread.....
Here I believed that you meant to say I didn't have a child, because I didn't want one due to subconscious issues- which would have been insolent.

I'm glad to know you didn't mean what you said.

And I'm glad we understand each other :D. Do you have an astrological opinion on my ability to bear a child?

I did an I Ching reading on the subject. (I realize that this is an astrology forum; Please, don't bother to read if you aren't interested in the I ching)

Hexagram 53: Gradual Progress

---0---
---0---
--- ---
---o---
---x---
--- ---


The second line, divided, shows the geese gradually approaching the large rocks, where they eat and drink joyfully and at ease. There will be good fortune.


The third line, undivided, shows them gradually advanced to the dry plains. It suggests also the idea of a husband who goes on an expedition from which he does not return, and of a wife who is pregnant, but will not nourish her child. There will be evil. The case symbolised might be advantageous in resisting plunderers.



The fifth line, undivided, shows the geese gradually advanced to the high mound. It suggests a wife who for three years does not become pregnant, but in the end the natural issue cannot be prevented. There will be good fortune.



The sixth line, undivided, shows the geese gradually advanced to the large heights beyond. Their feathers can be used as ornaments. There will be good fortune.



The situation is changing rapidly, and Yin (the passive feminine force) is gaining ground.



The future is embodied in Hexagram 7 - Shih (The Army): With firmness and correctness, and a leader of age and experience, there will be good fortune and no error.




The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Sun (Wind), which is transforming into K'un (Earth). As part of this process, penetration and following are giving way to docility and receptivity.

The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Ken (Mountain), which is transforming into K'an (Water). As part of this process, stillness and obstruction are giving way to danger and the unknown.


So it looks like with time, and help, I may be able. Maybe medical intervention? Or the passage of time; ie., transits or progressions? The only thing that appears worrisome is 53, line 3. Why would I not nourish my child? And who would be the plunderers?

[flea]

Crabapple,

I can really see how my words can be taken the wrong way, it was not my intent. I have a cancer moon and have those sensitivities on more than the odd occasion. This teaches me to chose my words with greater care. You have illuminated something very important for me.

I do not see a finality to what may or may not happen, and maybe the mind and mercurial processes are part of the key to unravelling these things. All signs relate to a body part, gemini the hands, Sag the hips, etc etc. I cant remember what Virgo is, I will have to check, that may be of interest.

You have many planets in the 5th so I do not think this is a simple situation. Neptune and Moon in the 6th indicate health issues here too. Neptune can be difficult to identify or hidden medical issues (I personally have neptune in the 6th in scorpio too and have a rare genetic skin condition recently diagnosed). The moon in 6th can relate to emotions, and the hormone/endocrine system has a lot to do with emotions, and also female issues. The Scorpio/Virgo axis is intercepted (wholey contained within one house). This may indicate more difficult to access things, but astrology gives you the key to deciphering it.

I have noticed with your chart and mine we share the same ascendent, descendent, MC , and IC. However I also noticed that I have my saturn in picses at 11deg, which is square your ascendent and descendent and opposite your venus which would indicate me as a very saturnian figure to you. These are challenging synastry aspects, so I wanted to make you aware of them.

Your chart shows a grand water trine between neptune saturn and jupiter. This can indicate talent in emotional areas, and is a strength in a chart. Uranus provides the fourth point to form a kite which is seen as more productive that the grand trine alone.

I ching confuses me I must admit so I cannot offer any advice here, apart from follow your intuition.

Love Light and Peace
Flea

[crabapple]

Crabapple,

I can really see how my words can be taken the wrong way, it was not my intent. I have a cancer moon and have those sensitivities on more than the odd occasion....

.....You have many planets in the 5th so I do not think this is a simple situation. Neptune and Moon in the 6th indicate health issues here too. Neptune can be difficult to identify or hidden medical issues (I personally have neptune in the 6th in scorpio too and have a rare genetic skin condition recently diagnosed). The moon in 6th can relate to emotions, and the hormone/endocrine system has a lot to do with emotions, and also female issues. The Scorpio/Virgo axis is intercepted (wholey contained within one house). This may indicate more difficult to access things, but astrology gives you the key to deciphering it.

I have noticed with your chart and mine we share the same ascendent, descendent, MC , and IC. However I also noticed that I have my saturn in picses at 11deg, which is square your ascendent and descendent and opposite your venus which would indicate me as a very saturnian figure to you. These are challenging synastry aspects, so I wanted to make you aware of them.

Your chart shows a grand water trine between neptune saturn and jupiter. This can indicate talent in emotional areas, and is a strength in a chart. Uranus provides the fourth point to form a kite which is seen as more productive that the grand trine alone.
Thank you for being so nice in your reply, Flea. This is a sensitive subject for me. And I do have a bit of a temper. I'm glad that we could come to an understanding.

I'm sorry to hear about your skin problem- eczema, psoriasis, and other such can be a serious problem. You have something more rare- I hope it isn't more dangerous.

It is interesting that your Saturn squares my Asc. and Des.- I will confess to having problems with anyone I see as a Saturnian (or Plutonian) authority figure. I'll keep that in mind when we run across each other.

From what I read in one of your earlier posts, like me, Mercury rules your Asc. and fifth house too....and that may cause a problem with fertility, but I'd bet your other placements and aspects are positive. At least I hope so.:)

Thank you for the astrological information.

[sskohli]

Hi
When you say "does anyone see children for me?" do you mean the natural way or the artificial way? If you mean the artificial way, then i think the right time for you to get it would be around 28th feb.
Because after that the net 9 months seem relatively trouble free.
Hey who knows maybe by then you do get into some relationships. Why not hit the gym and those beauty salons :D.

[crabapple]

Well, I meant the natural way; but if that doesn't work out, I'll try the artificial way. :) I will keep the 28th of Feb. in mind. Thank you, Sskohli :D .

[sskohli]

hmm if you are so apprehensive, why not ask me something, that you can verify in a few days and then you would be sure if this thing works or not.
What say?

[crabapple]

Okay- my question is "Will I see him before too long?"

[sskohli]

Okay- my question is "Will I see him before too long?"
hey CA,
you forgot the seed. (any number between 1 and 249 both inclusive)
and does your ques mean, will you get back with him?
you know what, you don't need astrology for this, i think you want to and you should. If he's trying hard, why not give him a second chance. :D

sandeep

[crabapple]

hey CA,
you forgot the seed. (any number between 1 and 249 both inclusive)
and does your ques mean, will you get back with him?
you know what, you don't need astrology for this, i think you want to and you should. If he's trying hard, why not give him a second chance. :D

sandeep

*blushes* the number is 46.

[sskohli]

*blushes* the number is 46.
Hey CA,
awww
you're horary is getting numbers
5 = love
and 8,12 = meaning physical relationship :D
so does that answer your ques, or should i be more explicit :)
All the best, hope everything works between you too.
Like John Lennon, said, 'All you need is love'
Sandeep

[crabapple]

:13:Hey! :eek: I was just asking when I'd see him again to talk. What is horary trying to tell me???!!!!

[sskohli]

hehe
well i put in the ques if you're going to be together with him.
Yeah like they say in those cofffee shops...'Anything can happen over coffee :D'

Sandeep

[crabapple]

hehe
well i put in the ques if you're going to be together with him.
Yeah like they say in those cofffee shops...'Anything can happen over coffee :D'

Sandeep
Come on, Sandeep, answer the real question....:13:

And I'm not going to be with him, I just want to hash out old feelings and get closure.

[sskohli]

Come on, Sandeep, answer the real question....:13:

And I'm not going to be with him, I just want to hash out old feelings and get closure.
right..let's see...
umm this is what my last gf said, "I am just going to see my ex bf, once and finish it".
And I am here staying awake answering astro ques :D
and you know where she is :(
Sandeep