Who came up with the wording for Pisces and other astrology signs?

[flare]

And who was the original inventor?

[Radu]

It was the inventor of astrology who named the signs. Does anyone has it's natal data? I'd like to have a look at his chart...
:D

[flare]

So it was named first in English, or..?

Was it translated? Or did he make up his own words.

[Carole]

Hhhhmmmmm.....It's been said that He was a Lord, so He probably named them in English first, and it's more than probable that He made them up, as His extremely creative flair was and continue to be well known. ;)

Carole

[flare]

Good, but the connection was discovered a long time ago, but only recently, when English (language) came into the place, was it finalized/stabilized/tooken into place?

[Carole]

:rolleyes:

[flare]

:rolleyes:



? --------------

[allie_b]

What do you mean by wording? Description? Or the terms, Pisces, etc.. The astrological signs come from Astronomy.

Please clarify.

[flare]

Thank you. Where did it originate from, e.g. was it directly translated from a named astronomy symbol or...

The original astrological signs used symbols (instead of words) right so there is no original wording...?



i.e. Most of the english language is derived from Latin or France, so was it imported from another language as well and did it stay the same?



e.g. In Latin is could hav been Pisceleatous or something else.

[flare]

Also, are all the astrological names shared globally? Like is Pisces or Aquarius, Pisces and Aquarius to Rome or Bulgaria or Lithuania?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

The names of the Signs are all either Latin or Greek.

Also, are all the astrological names shared globally? Like is Pisces or Aquarius, Pisces and Aquarius to Rome or Bulgaria or Lithuania?

No. Leo in Japanese is not 'Leo' as Japanese does not have the 'l' sound. I know that's not really the reason why it is that way, but I thought it was kind of humorous.

[Lissa]

Also, are all the astrological names shared globally? Like is Pisces or Aquarius, Pisces and Aquarius to Rome or Bulgaria or Lithuania?
Once again,no,I believe each culture changes the signs' names to better fit with their language.Like here in Portugal,where no one knows what Aries is,because the portuguese translation is Carneiro(Carneiro means ram in portuguese).Most of the portuguese signs have a similar sound to their original names,but some don't(Aries=Carneiro,Libra=Balança,Cancer=Carangue jo),I remember about4years ago I got so confused when I tried to read my horoscope in English.

It's funny,the portuguese word for Virgo is exacly the same as our word for virgin,I hear jokes about this all the time:).

[Radu]

All zodiacal signs names, currently used in English, are Latin words, just as it happens with many science related words, all originate from Latin and were taken literally, but pronounced to sound like English words.
For instance I think the correct Latin pronounciation of Pisces is like "Peace-chess".
Also, it seems that all other languages than English use their own words for zodiacal signs, which translate the meaning of the Latin words. It is so in Portuguese, French, Spanish, Romanian, any other language I know.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

All zodiacal signs names, currently used in English, are Latin words,

Taurus is greek. I think there's another one...but it has escaped me.

[tsquare]

Hmmm....Latin I like that.:)
If anyone is really good with latin, or has the resourses, or the time, one neat thing I think could be here would be all the signs names in latin Like what what Radu did with "Peace Chess".
Thank you Radu!
(Most senior Member) :p(joke)
(laugh):)


At least we'd know what the greeks thought of the zodiac.
Or at least then we'd have to find out about what the word's Peace, and Chess, meant to the greeks as well. From what I've heard they have like 16 different words and deffinitions for love, so latin is an extremely interesting language, that in its way, seems to have a higher awareness contributed to it, then our currently used.....and i mean currently used, and understood, engilish language. And I don't speak for everyone.
The more I learn, I realize just how stupid I am. (laugh)
And usually not untill then.(smile)
Each individual has there own ideas of words and meanings sometimes, Theres the subjective side to it, which ties to the signifigance and what that word has been to them for years, then there is also the objective side to this..... as well as the Cultual side of this. And two different words in two different languages or cultures, times and places, while they are the same word in type can mean absolutely different things. I'm sure there are examples of this and I can't quite pull em up clearly enough out of my recall but, they are there. And then there is the guy that does the translating, and well....things can get lost in translation. But an interesting topic none the less. Getting to the bottom of this can clear alot of peoples misunderstoods up yo where things just click a bit better.

Finding a true originator has got to be hard as hell, and alot of work.
I've rattled the idea arround my head quite a bit of doing this, But I skin my knees real fast in the process. Too much data, Not enough time and resources, and I began to feel like my face has been smooshed:mad:.
But there are people here that know way more then I do.
And some may have done alot of the work.
If so, thank you!:)
==================================
Tsquare

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I may have gotten confused...but are you thinking the Greeks spoke Latin? They spoke Greek...Latin is a different language all together. Forgive me if I misunderstood majorly, just your post confuses me and for some reason that's the idea I got out of it... :o

Or at least then we'd have to find out about what the word's Peace, and Chess, meant to the greeks as well.

Radu was just offering a pronounciation guide. 'Peace-chess' is closer to how the word is pronounced in Latin than the English form of Pisces we use today. Not that the words 'peace' and 'chess' mean anything to do with the Sign of Pisces or it's naming, just that's how it's supposed to sound like.

Finding a true originator has got to be hard as hell, and alot of work.

It was just some early Latin astronomers I guess. They looked up, saw a ram in the stars and said 'Aries' which means 'ram', saw twins and said 'Gemini' which means 'twins', saw a crab and said 'Cancer' which means 'crab', saw a lion and said 'Leo' which means 'lion' and so on and so forth.

[tsquare]

I may have gotten confused...but are you thinking the Greeks spoke Latin? They spoke Greek...Latin is a different language all together. Forgive me if I misunderstood majorly, just your post confuses me and for some reason that's the idea I got out of it... :o

Yeah, oops, I had to look that up. Thank you. The Latin alphabet, was derived from those of the Etruscans and Greeks (each of those themselves derived from the earlier Phoenician alphabet). I thought from that, that they were very similar, but they are not. The Greeks have there own language.....but they seem to have a influince on latin language.

Im just trying to find a bit more on origions of knowledge concerning astrology
and trying to see just how much was mooched off of earlier stuff and where they got their data......and how they pronounced it....and what the signifigance was that they atatched to what they percieved.
It would be good to know.

I just don't know if I believe that astrology is just an offshoot of astronomy, and as we discover planets we evolve.
I'm wondering if the old systems at times are missing pieces or not.
Who gave them their data, or did they come up with it themselves.?...
It's a mystery.

There are so many very important pieces of history missing out of the books, or so I believe, and astrology seems to be everywhere in nearly every culture and every time, that we know of. I don't believe that it just spread out from one spot fanning the world....but that it was there mabie since the begining and I get the idea that someone put it there somehow.
And someones been "droping off" alot of the data for us to use.

It's these missing parts of history that are the most interesting cause I get the idea something big happened and we lost allot of technology we had in the process.

Kaiousei no Senshi Quote:
Radu was just offering a pronounciation guide. 'Peace-chess' is closer to how the word is pronounced in Latin than the English form of Pisces we use today. Not that the words 'peace' and 'chess' mean anything to do with the Sign of Pisces or it's naming, just that's how it's supposed to sound like.
End Quote:

Alot of Engilish comes from Latin.

I have a hard time believing that the words are only sounds and dont have meanings.... 'Peace Chess' looks pretty acurate to me, almost scary accurate. And it seems someone did that on purpose, it wasn't just a fluke or accident. From what comes out of the 12th H or of from out piscies, Quite a few political leaders have 12thH suns, Tony Blair, George Bush, and 'peace=chess' looks pretty accurate of a "pisces type of thing".

I dont Know........(tenaciously curoious)

I'd like to see some more pronounciations of the rest of the signs.
Obviously Piscies the word was coined at some time, it didn't come out of nowhere, so Im just curious as to the word Piscies and all the English signs word origions, and who it was that came up with it.

Flare Quote:
The original astrological signs used symbols (instead of words) right so there is no original wording...?
End Quote:

Words are symbols. But I get what you mean.



I have to do some reading on history and language and astrology.....I've never really spent much time in this arena.....I have to look at a few things.
But History can be forgetfull, and when things don't add up or make sence, I sometimes wonder just whose writing the history.


My idea of the Zodiac is this.
No matter where you are, no matter what culture you are in, no matter what language you use...... The effects caused by the zodiac are the same. All over the globe. Same effect, different words.....words are symbols....... not the thing causing the effect.....so to have a better basic understanding of the effects of the signs is what Im going for, is to try not to confuse the signifigance of the words, with the real deal, or whats really there. Symbols point and words point but........there not the thing.

And I just can't tell how the subject of astrology evolved in each culture.

I mean...it doesn't seem that any culture was the creator or originator of the zodiac or its effects, and all they did was find things that were already there, they discovered it, mabie...(missing periods in history), but its not new.

But the missing links are the things I am interested in......
How did it get there in the first place....cause it isn't an accident it's there.

I don't know if I want to post this.



I think I know what flare is sort of after and going for here.....but I don't quite know how to say it.



It was just some early Latin astronomers I guess. They looked up, saw a ram in the stars and said 'Aries' which means 'ram', saw twins and said 'Gemini' which means 'twins', saw a crab and said 'Cancer' which means 'crab', saw a lion and said 'Leo' which means 'lion' and so on and so forth. Today 06:51 PM

I don't know...I think there is more to it then that. Tip of my toung and a million miles away.

==============================
Tsquare

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Tsquare,

If you haven't already, you should definately read my userpage. I think it'll be right up your alley.

[tsquare]

Was just thinking the same thing.(laugh)
Tsquare

[Lissa]

It's getting a little bit confusing,I found a website that claimed to have the constelations name's in latin but they were exacly the same as in English,then I found another website that claims to also have the signs' names in latin and they're a little bit different,I don't know each one is right but I have a gut feeling the second is the accurate one:

Aries
Taurus
Gemini
Cancer
Leo
Virgo
Libra
Scorpius
Sagittarius
Capricornius
Aquarius
Pisces

It's funny,they say the Sun "stays" in the constelation of Virgo during44days(from September17 to October30)and only7days in Scorpio(from November23 to November29).

There is a thirteen constelation:).It's called 'Ophiuchus'.In the website they say the Sun "stays" there for18days,from November30 to December17.

So if you were born within this days and thought you were a Sagittarius,forget about it,you're a Ophiuchus:p.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

It's getting a little bit confusing,I found a website that claimed to have the constelations name's in latin but they were exacly the same as in English,

That's because they are the same. We've adopted the Latin names for the constellations. The only ones that are slightly different are Scorpio and Capricorn. Also, Taurus - again - is not Latin it's Greek.

It's funny,they say the Sun "stays" in the constelation of Virgo during44days(from September17 to October30)and only7days in Scorpio(from November23 to November29).

There is a thirteen constelation:).It's called 'Ophiuchus'.In the website they say the Sun "stays" there for18days,from November30 to December17.

So if you were born within this days and thought you were a Sagittarius,forget about it,you're a Ophiuchus:p.

Yes, welcome to the 'magic' of astronomy and procession of the equinoxes.

[oonah]

Origin zodiac names:
The zodiac we have inherited is from the Greeks. The Greek zodiac and
zodiacal constellation names was adapted (with few changes) from the
zodiacal scheme of the Babylonians, excepting Aries and Libra.
The Greeks changed the Babylonian zodiacal constellation "Hired Man"
into Aries and the Romans later reintroduced the Babylonian zodiacal
constellation Libra.

The Babylonians invented the 12-constellation zodiac during the Late
Assyrian Period from a deliberate scheme which (circa 1000 BCE) placed 17/18 constellations/named stars for use as reference points along the
path of the Moon (Mul.Apin list). The development of the 12-constellation
zodiac into 12 equal divisions (i.e., 30 degree signs) occurred later during
the 5th-century BCE (for mathematical reasons). In its final form the use
of the zodiac also included marking the movements of the planets.


The Mul.Apin list of constellations/stars that marked the path of the Moon:

MUL.MUL : The stars/the hair brush Pleiades
MUL.GUD.AN.NA : The "Bull of Heaven/the bull of Anu
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac:Taurus
MUL.SIPA.ZI.AN.NA : The true shepherd of Anu Orion
MUL.SHU.GI : The old man Perseus
MUL.GAM / MUL.ZUBI : The sicle sword/The hooked staff Auriga
MUL.MASH.TAB.BA.GAL.GAL : The Great Twins
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Gemini
MUL.AL.LUL : The Crab [or Prokyon]
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations.Greek zodiac: Cancer
MUL.UR.GU.LA : The Lion [or Lioness]
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Leo
MUL.AB.SIN : The Furrow [The barley-stalk] [or Spica]
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations.Greek zodiac: Virgo
MUL.ZIB.BA.AN.NA : The Scales of Heaven
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations Greek zodiac: originally
the Claws (of the Scorpion) but the Romans later (re)introduced Libra
MUL.GIR.TAB : The Scorpion
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac:scorpius
MUL.PA.BIL.SAG : The Grandfather/Pabilsag (a god) [archer?]
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Sagittaurius
MUL.SUHUR.MASH The Goat fish
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations.Greek zodiac: Capricornus
MUL.GU.LA : The Great One/The giant/the great star
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Aquarius
MUL.ZIBBATI.MESH The tails Pisces
MUL.SIM.MAH The Great Swallow SW Pisces+epsilon Pegasi
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Pisces
MUL.A.NU.TI.TUM Anunitum (a goddess) NE Pisces+middle part Andromeda
MUL.LU.HUN.GA The Hired Man
later to be one of the 12 ecliptic constellations. Greek zodiac: Aries
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Origin of Aries the Ram:
The first sign of the zodiac, represented since Roman times as a ram, was
originally referred to by the Babylonians as MUL.LU.HUN.GA the "hireling" Two orthographic variants encountered include the transparent abbreviations
(MUL.)HUN and and HUN.GA. A third variant (MUL.)LU, common to Seleucid
astronomical texts, is generally taken to be a homophonic substitution for
the otherwise unattested abbreviation *LU. The LU-sign, however, may also
be read UDU, the usual Sumerogram for Akk. immeru "a ram." Since the HUN
and LU signs are paleographically quite similar in the late Babylonian ductus
and the celestial hireling was equated with "Dumuzi", the shepherd par
excellence of Sumerian literature, some form of punning may have led to the
metamorphosis of this sign from the hireling to the ram in Hellenistic Babylonia rather than later and elsewhere. Seals depicting rams en passant, with heads forward or reversed, are known from throughout the Hellenistic period in Uruk.

Some old manuscripts use the "eagle" or a "serpent" for the "scorpio" sign.
In Ancient Egypt, "cancer" is symbolised by a "scarab".
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The History of the 12 Zodiacal Constellations of Babylonia
1.Cylinder seal iconography (Sumerian and Akkadian Period 3200-2000 BCE)
Note: It not established that constellations or constellation symbols are being depicted
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
Water-Carrier
Swallow/Field (=Fish)
Hired Man (= Ram)
Goat-Fish (= Goat)
2.Prayer to the gods of the night texts (Old Babylonian Period 1830-1530 BCE)
Bull
Goat-Fish (=Goat)
3.Prayer to the gods of the night text (Hittite Empire circa 1430-1200 BCE)
Note: Hittite cuneiform text from the Hittite capital Bogazkoy (based on an earlier Babylonian original of the prayer to the gods of the night).
Bull
4.Babylonian boundary-stone (kudurru) iconography (Cassite Period 1530-1160 BCE)
Note: It not established that constellations or constellation symbols are being depicted. It is established that god/goddess symbols are depicted.
Bull
Lion
Furrow (=Virgin)
Archer
Hired Man (=Ram)
Goat-Fish (=Goat)
5.Hilprecht's Nippur Text HS 245 (= HS 229) (Cassite Period 1530-1160 BCE)
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
6.Stars of Elam, Akkad, and Amurru (Cassite Period circa 1350 BCE)
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
Twins
Crab
Scales
7.Circular "astrolabe" (circa 1150 BCE)
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
Water-Carrier
Twins
Swallow/Field (= Fish)
Crab
Scales
8.Tabular "astrolabe": Stars of Anu (circa 1100 BCE)
Lion
Scorpion
Water-Carrier
Twins
Swallow/Field (= Fish)
9.Assyrian monthly decans (after 1100 BCE)
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
Water-carrier
Twins
Swallow/Field (= Fish)
Hired Man (= Ram)
Scales
Goat-fish (= Goat)
10. Late Assyrian version of prayer to the gods of the night (Late Assyrian Period 1000-612 BCE)
Hired Man (= Ram)
Lion
Scorpion
Swallow (= Fish)
Twins
11. Mul.Apin series (circa 1000-700 BCE)
Bull
Lion
Scorpion
Water-Carrier
Twins
Furrow (= Virgin)
Archer
Swallow/Field (=Fish)
Hired Man (= Ram)
Crab
Scales
Goat-Fish (= Goat)
-----------------------------------------------------------------


references:
- "Die Kosmologie der Babylonier" (1890 - Assyriologist Peter Jensen)
- "Recherches sur le culte public et les mystères de Mithra en Orient
et en Occident" (the French archaeologist Félix Lajard -1867)
- "Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel" (1907-1935, 2 volumes and
3 supplements in 7 parts by the Jesuit mathematician and Assyriologist
Franz Kugler)
- the studies on cuneiform astronomy of the mathematicians Otto
Neugebauer and Bartel van der Waerden
- "Zodiacal Signs among the Seal Impressions from Hellenistic Uruk"
by Ronald Wallenfels (Pages 282-283). In: The Tablet and the Scroll,
edited by Mark Cohen, et. al. (1993).)

[AquarianEssence]

Very good history lesson, Oonah. Thanks. I've wanted for some time to go through all 12 tribes/sons of Jacob/Isreal and follow their name meanings and family journals in refrence to the constellations/signs of the zodiac. There are a couple of different coorespondances in variations of the Kabbalah and I think they could be reconciled by tracing the details of each son. I think it is interesting that he actually has 13 offspring listed, the daughter, Dinah, being left out of her inheritance just as Job's daughters were until he had gone through his ordeal. And I've heard that there has been 13 signs at one time or another in the past, with some saying Aruiga, others saying Orphichus. All great 12s have a central, 13th figure so I wouldn't be surprised.

His first son is named Rueben, "behold or see, a son". He was birthed by the wife that Jacob didn't love. His last son, born of his love, Rachael, was named, Ben-Oni, "son of my suffering" with her last breath. But Jacob renamed him Benjamin, "Son of my right hand".