interference or aid?

[tikana]

Hi guys

question for you

let's say moon conjuncts jupiter before it reaches the saturn

moon and saturn are significators. is jupiter an interferecer or something else?

thanks
Tk

[archergirl]

Hey Tik,

It depends on what Jupiter is, what his condition is (dignity? detriment? retrograde?), and whether or not Jupiter represents 'someone else' in the situation.

The traditional view is that yes, Jupiter prohibits perfection between the Moon and Saturn. If Jupiter is in dignity, it may represent 'something better on offer' than Saturn, from the Moon's perspective.

Example: I'm getting ready to go out with Joe, but John asks me out at the last minute. John is better-looking and richer than Joe, so I go with John. Something like that. ;)

AG:)

[tikana]

Archer

here is the chart
http://tinyurl.com/2wgsm6

the question is will I (my friend) marry X?
this what bugs me about this chart

both significators are peregrine to each other.
part of marriage conj pof moon trines both of them

Mercury ruler of 9th house *marriage ceremonies* sextiles mars ruler of 4th house.

any thoughts, Archer?

danke
Tik

[archergirl]

Hey Tik,

I think the answer is an unequivocal 'no'. We are looking for an aspect between the 1st and 7th *only*, or a collection or a translation: something that brings them together; forget about the 9th of ceremonies or 4th of endings or whatever.

The Moon has to pass not only a conjunction with Jupiter, but also *Venus*, before reaching Saturn. This is prohibition, plain and simple. There is no reception between the Moon and Saturn: no reception, no interest.

The Moon has *passed* a trine with POF; it isn't applying. The POF represents what the *querent* values: in this case, she values 'marriage'. The Moon *might* have been interested at one time, but isn't now.

Jupiter rules the 3rd and the 12th and is in the 11th. Perhaps a 'friend' who gives the Moon person some damaging information about the querent? In any case, whatever or whoever Jupiter is, prevents the perfection.

All things considered, the answer is still a 'no'.

AG:)

[tikana]

makes sense

Thanks Archer

Tik

[starlink]

Tik, could you give me the name of that Astrology program for horary astrology?

[tikana]

Solar fire

Tik

[blumen]

I agree with Archergirl, this is prohibition. If - and only if - Jupiter represents someone, then the Moon person may be getting back with an ex.

RX Jupiter: going back - almost literally
Jupiter in the turned fifth house: a romantic interest.

[tikana]

Interesting update

I dont think it is 1/7th house

it is 1/5 issue cause technically speaking they are not even dating.. she is interested in him.

from what i understand, he is interested in her

i do not see reception between them at all if we use 1/7th

how can soemone ask about a marriage if there is no relaitonship? wouldnt this be invalid chart?

logically speaking?

Tik

[blumen]

how can soemone ask about a marriage if there is no relaitonship? wouldnt this be invalid chart?

I think that since she asked about marriage this is a 1/7 question. It doesn't matter that they are not even dating. She must have thought of him as a potential marriage partner, therefore she asked the question.

I would have used the fifth if she asked about sex or about a date.

I don't think the chart is invalid because of this reason.

Other considerations about this chart:

Moon at the bendings= no
Moon slow = no
Significators are peregrine= none of them will take any concrete steps to start dating.

[tikana]

Blumen..

from what i get off other sites, asce of the chart is vital .. if i place it in natal chart, it lands right on 5th house. that is why i am thinking this is 1/5 vs 1/7

Tik

[archergirl]

But Tik, the question is about marriage, not just getting naked with someone, so the question is a 7th house one, not a 5th! Any other coincidences you find...they are happenstance.

And anyhow, even if the question was 'Will I be getting naked with the guy?', it would *still* be a 7th house query. We are talking about a relationship between two people, the querent and the quesited, and in any question about a relationship, any relationship (beyond those of master/servant or friendship, which would be 6th house or 11th house respectively), between two people is given to the 1st and 7th. Especially if the question is marriage.

The only 'people' who are given to the 5th are children, and I am assuming the querent is not asking about marrying a child. :eek: If he's an adult, he's the 7th. What she might want to *do* with him, might be found in the 5th, but it is never used to signify the other party. We have to remember the difference between the form and the function. The 7th is form. The 5th, from the 'romantic' perspective, is function only. ;)

AG:)

[starlink]

Thanks for giving me the name of the programm Tikana!

[starlink]

Hello AG, just a question about the prohibition. I thought maybe, because Jupiter and Venus are both the most beneficial planets, these two would not be such an impediment. Could it not mean that the Moon is going through two lucky phases before getting to Saturn? Jupiter retro maybe making her think really deep about this relationship before jumping any further? Just a thought! Does Lilly maybe comment anywhere in his book about Jupiter and Venus being able to obstruct?

[tikana]

Starlink

i am thinking exactly the same ...

then I found this consitently,
asce must fall in the natal house or on a planet that describes the question.

in this case, asce is right on beginning of 5th house cusp

Tik

[starlink]

Hi Tik, where did you read that then? I do know that if a chart should maybe NOT be read because of whatever empeding it, then, there is an exception when a personal planet from the Natal chart, conjuncts the Asc. of the Horary chart or when a very important planet (like Sun, Moon, ruler Asc. and so on) should make an exact good aspect with the horary Ascendant. So I guess that is what you mean by the Horary Asc. falling on a natal planet, but falling in a natal house to do with the question maybe only shows that the querent is in love or that the question is about love, nothing else. It does not make that house the house of the quisited, namely that she asked for marriage. But this thing with Jupiter and Venus is still on my mind really.

[tikana]

Starlink..

I think Anthony Louis mentioned that you should test the chart before you judge it....
Didnt i post judging radical charts in horaries ages ago?

EUREKA!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5279&highlight=ascendant+hour


1. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are the same planet;

ruler of the hour is SUN ...
ruler of asce is saturn

2. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant triplicity are the same

Ruler of hour Sun
ruler of triplicity moon

planet;
3. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are of the same

ruler of hour - sun
ruler of asce saturn

nature. (Not, as has been said, the ruler of the hour and the ascending sign.)

If there is no accord by these three methods, then the chart is not radical: it is unsuitable for
judgement. .

Tik

[starlink]

Thanks a lot Tik for giving the link again. Yes, that was a while ago. I must admit that I do not always look at the lord of the hour. If I get a Leo lady asking a question and the Asc. should turn out to be Leo, than that is already enough for me. I do use it when a chart has a very early or late Ascendant. Then I want to know more and look at the lord of the hour etc.

[tikana]

Starlink

i will go on my gut feeling on this

this chart is just unreadable or i am missing a piece
it doesnt describe anything remotely possible to reality

Jupiter naturally rules 9thhouse ceremonies. It is retro. Moon is about to conjunct it. He is going back to it. Meaning that since there was a question of "i want to marry you" on the table once before.

WAIT A second
here is a question how much orb do you allow for antiscia?
Saturn is going back to antiscia with mars!

ohh my god why am i so blind?

look at this

Moon inconjuncts Merc, ruler of 9th *ceremonies* it does not leave desc orb AT ALL!

Merc is combust and weakened HA!
Venus conj Saturn in 8th venus rules 5th house.

Okay i am overturning this to say THEY WILL get married because they will have a kid on a way!

Tik
obsessve scorpio!

[starlink]

Tik, you are mindboggling! I am a Taurus, Saturn square Merc. so I need time to digest this one, ha ha! Must go for a bit, will be back!

Also obsessive Scorpio Asc.! Star.

[tikana]

i have merc conj uranus! leo rising .. sun/moon/merc/uranus in 3rd house.. jupiter in 9th!

Tik

[starlink]

Holy Smoke! A Stellium in the 3rd! You should write books or become a teacher! (maybe you are already)! You need an audience Tik, my daughter has Leo rising Sun in 10 and Pluto in 3 opposed to Mercury!! and boy does she need an audience too!

[archergirl]

I see where you're going with this, folks, and there is some good logic in it, but I'm going to stick to my original 'no' answer, for the following reasons:

It's true, Starlink, that the benefics sometimes don't act so much as prohibitors as helpers. This is especially true in collections and translations of light.

My trouble with this chart lies in that Jupiter does not collect or translate the light between the Moon and Saturn; it does not 'aid and abet' the coming together of the two people.

The Moon applies to Jupiter, but Jupiter is long separated from Saturn, and it will be a long, long while before Jupiter and Saturn are in applying aspect again. They are *separated*.

Venus *could* collect the lights, definitely, but for one thing: Jupiter. I don't see this as a 'double lucky' incident: I see this as 'other things getting in the way'. If you did take Venus as 5th ruler of children (which makes sense), I still would not be very happy to see Venus and Saturn in the 8th house!

I just can't agree with the '9th as marriage ceremony' thing, Tik. This would maybe be the case in other cultures where without the ceremony the man and woman cannot be together (Asian cultures, perhaps), but the 9th even in these cases, represents the marriage bureau, the organisation that arranges for the validity of the marriage, like a register office or Justice of the Peace. It could also represent a priest and the like, but not the institute of marriage itself: that is 7th.

The fact that Jupiter is also retrograde is troubling. I'm a fan of Frawley, as we know, so I'll let him explain. He does it better than I::p
If there is no such favourable spin given by the context, retrogradation is a problem. The planet is going the wrong way: it is against nature. This is a powerful debility, and, being against nature, things are unlikely to turn out well. Consider: the planet has lots of essential dignity, so he's one of the good guys. He's on the midheaven, so is strongly dignified by house: he has a gun and lots of ammunition. But he's retrograde: with the best will in the world, he's shooting in the wrong direction. The Horary Textbook p 57

Jupiter doesn't represent a *boost* in this chart; it represents a *blockage*.

This, coupled with the fact that *there is no reception between the Moon and Saturn*, which is THE most important thing I would be looking for in a marriage question, leads me back to my 'no' answer.

However, I am very intrigued at your 'children' idea, Tik. You have said that they are not together now, so therefore they can't be doing anything 'physical' right now to create a child. technically speaking they are not even dating.. she is interested in him so marriage seems a *bit* of a stretch. BUT, if we take your idea and run with it, it may happen like this:

1. Moon conj. Jupiter: Man gets 'news or rumour' (3rd/12th ruler: a secret or a lie?)
2. Venus conj. Saturn: querent with child, but in very dodgy 8th house
3. Venus collects light between Moon/Jupiter and Saturn. Quesited hears (secret information/lies?) about querent with child? Child brings them together?

Yes, it's entirely possible.

Being that Jupiter is debilitated, however, and *still* being that there is no reception between Moon and Saturn, I wouldn't expect a 'happily ever after'. Your take on it sounds more like emotional blackmail than any kind of 'love'!:( But who am I to judge what people get up to in their lives? Human beings are a mess, generally. :P

You will have to keep us posted. Questions like this are interesting, but they leave a strange taste in my mouth, as they make me wonder just exactly what the querent has in mind. ;)

Best,
AG:)

[tikana]

Archer

Aha ..that is exactly what i am thinking child brings them together.. the idea is LOL funny as hell ..she will laugh her head off once she hears this one.. i can only imagine how hysterical she will get.. ya of course i will keep you guys posted.. ROFLMAO!
why blackmail? maybe both of them will realize okay NOW what? have a kid, settle down, get married? shrug .. the thing is those 2 are like pluto and chiron.. they are attracted to each other but cant seem to get together. let them figure out what to do.. we will see .. seriously.. i am keeping tabs on this.


Starlink

Audience? ONLY with KIDS! I write exactly as i speak. I dont edit posts, letters, or whatever.. Even my english teacher has told me.. "i can almost hear your voice in your writing."
My best audience are children. I can be the ultimate walking joker when i am around kids. At 31, my mom always asks "when will you grow up?" my response "NEVER!"

Tik

[archergirl]

why blackmail? maybe both of them will realize okay NOW what? have a kid, settle down, get married? shrug .. the thing is those 2 are like pluto and chiron.. they are attracted to each other but cant seem to get together.

It sounds like blackmail because they aren't together and 'can't seem to get together'. If your reading is true, with the 5th significator with the querent in the 8th, that speaks of ulterior motives. The 8th is not a nice house.

With no reception between the querent and quesited, the querent in the 8th, and the quesited conjuncting the significator for 'secrets' I find it difficult to imagine that this would be a consensual decision. With the querent and quesited not even *dating* right now, I wonder whether it's even appropriate for the querent to ask whether they'll get married, let alone consider the possibility of having a child. A child should not be used as a means to achieve an end, which is what this sounds like. IMO astrologers have a moral imperative to discourage such thinking by clients AND friends!

AG:)

[starlink]

Thanks AG for explaning that one. Actually, apart from this Venus and Jupiter thing, I must say that I go along with what you have said all along. And if Tik says that those two just dont seem to get together, than indeed having a surprise child could just about be the only trick in the book!!;) to make that happen, so good luck to them and yes Tik, tell us all about it later on!! Cheers, I am going to bed now, not feeling great these last days, that's why I am just sitting behind the computer instead of sweating it out somewhere else. Some virus, but I hope to be OK soon again. Star.:)

[tikana]

AG

again .. it is not blackmail! if there is a pregnancy, in state of california you can get an abortion. what if they have a 1 night stand and she get pregnant. we dont know anything for a fact/... quite frankly i am not too keen on jumping intoa judgemnt *blackmail* .. maybe both of them will finally figure out one day what to do with each other.. EVEN IF a child becomes a binding bond between them, there is no blackmail. it is taking responsobility for an action. if they have feelings for each other, fine. if they dont, well there is abortion clinic which is not my fav place even though i am pro-choice. if there is a pregnancy they will be standing with okay keep the baby try to get everything together or have an abotion and split.

if she wanted to get pregnant, she could have easily gotten into a bed together with him ages ago. i am not seeing 8th house as debilitating or somet kind of alterior motif.

Tik

[tikana]

Hey guys

i ******* up with this chart

i should have used woodland hills, vs la

it shifted an entire chart 1 degree earlier

which puts Jupiter in 12th house

merc sits in 7th with the sun!

shame on me!

Tik

[archergirl]

Tik,

Well, you know this 'client' of yours so you have the background information. I'm just reading what I see in the chart, according to the scanty information you've provided. The ascendant changing by 1 degree won't change the reading of the chart that much: the querent and quesited are *still* impedited. :p

IMO getting pregnant by 'accident' (and there are no 'accidents' between sexually-responsible adults who really don't want to have kids) is about the worst reason to get married there is; it's a form of entrapment. Women are clever at this kind of stuff; more clever than men, who seem to be slaves to their bodies in ways women aren't. Who winds up paying? The kid. I've been married for twelve years AND I have kids, and believe me, having kids puts a strain on the best and strongest of relationships, let alone one created out of an 'accident'. To think otherwise is either naive at best and at worst, plain old stupid! Tell your client that, if she gets any funny ideas.:D

But that's neither here nor there; that isn't part of the astrological debate.

AG:)

[tikana]

AG

I have run out of patience on this one ... I had to call... i just got off the phone with her.. guess what she tells me

she goes "Tik, you told me last year that i might get pregnant later this year. Well, my x bf and I met a coupe of weeks ago for a cofee he mumbled something about wanting kids and to sette down." that is why she asked "will i marry x" So we back at square 1 .. what the hell is going on! Venus conj Saturn! What is up with this?
Then Jupiter rules children and a marriage *natural ruler of 9th* ..

so there is a kid in the equation.

I know what you are saying. Condoms break, birth controls are not 100% proof. she is not planning to blackmail him LOL *she had a good laugh* but she did mention she asked that question because of something I said months ago! she did also say that she is not jumping in the bed with him just for the hell of it... if they are getting back together then first thing is to resolve all problems that broke them up in the past before starting from scratch. and it is not like sperms are airborne *thank god for that*.

Tik

[blumen]

Tik, you told me last year that i might get pregnant later this year. Well, my x bf and I met a coupe of weeks ago for a cofee he mumbled something about wanting kids and to sette down." that is why she asked "will i marry x"

Tik

Hold on. I still think that the significators to use in this question are Saturn and the Moon. Now the Moon is applying a conjunction to Rx Jupiter. The Moon person is getting back with an ex.....but she should be the Saturn person, right?

[tikana]

Blumen

why would moon person getting back to his ex when jupiter is in 12th house.. i ******* up with locations

Tik

[blumen]

It's not a matter of being in an house rather than another one. God willing, things happen if there is perfection.

The Moon cannot perfect the aspect to Saturn because Rx Jupiter stands in the way. So the Moon conjuncts Jupiter first

The Moon person is getting back with an ex. If Jupiter represents a person, you can say that is an ex because is retrograde, and dignified.

[tikana]

Okay peeps

heads up

the chart is back to non-radical .. no matter where i look it shows up as if it is not...

here example http://members.tripod.com/mithras93/HoraryofTheWeek/dec032001/index.html

i am bothered by no previous major aspect from the moon .. usually it shoudl indicate what triggered a question. I do not see a conversation.

moon is in 12th house *5 deg rule*

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/06feb/article217.html
http://www.starpearls.com/mercury.html
This guy uses natal chart in his horary readings


I THINK i am turning into a GEMINI!

page 34 Alan Leo's horary book
" Marriage will take place if the luminaries are in good aspect with jupiter, venus, mars or ruler of 7th house. "

then he goes to say

"but if the lord of of 1st aplies to conk lord of 7th the marriag eiwll undoubltely take place for good or ill inless the conjunction is impedited by the strong square or opposition of a stronger planet. luminaries applying to malefics are against marriage."

"always consider moon for a male and sun for female in these manners*

Tik

[starlink]

What??!! Moon for male and Sun for female? Is that really what Alan Leo wrote? I prefer Lilly, my favorite, with the Sun as male to be honest.
This whole story is getting very messy to say the least! Woman not able to get to man, yes baby, no baby, blackmail, and so on and so forth. Why dont we just wait a couple of month and then see what happens. Let those two first figure out their differences which is the only sane thing in all this and then Tik will keep us posted on the outcome! How about that!

[tikana]

Starlink

merc retro at its best

Leo said that for females (if a female asking) ruler of 1st and the Sun with connection to mars

for males (if a male asking) it is ruler of 7th, moon and venus

yeah you got it

i will keepyou guys posted

Tik

[blumen]

Yes, but that is for generic marriage questions.

Suppose I wake up one day and ask: "Will I ever get married?" then you look at the lord of the Ascendant, and see if Mars and the Sun cast any aspect to it.

But if I ask about marriage with X, then I have to look at the lord of the first and the lord of the seven.

[starlink]

Yes Tik, this sounds more like it!

Blumen, good that you mentioned the difference. I did not know about the first one, so one more thing learned today!

[Libra20]

Yes, but that is for generic marriage questions.

Suppose I wake up one day and ask: "Will I ever get married?" then you look at the lord of the Ascendant, and see if Mars and the Sun cast any aspect to it.

But if I ask about marriage with X, then I have to look at the lord of the first and the lord of the seven.

Not to make things any more confusing... Your comments, Blumen, got me thinking about who initiated Tik's question and how that may affect the reading. Tik - were you asking for the couple or was the female herself asking? I've seen charts analyzed differently depending on the querent and their relationship to the situation. For a third person asking, I've seen both: people use both the lord of the first and the lord of the seventh for the couple. But I've also seen it delineated as the following: for the querent look to lord of the first, the person being asked about look to the lord of the seventh and the person they may marry, lord of the 11th (turned 5th from the 7th). Or is that just for when someone else is sticking their nose too much in someone else's business.... :confused:

Tik - you turning into a Gemini..... never... :p Maybe an obsessive compulsive Virgo.... (from someone who would like to give away some of her virgo planets...)
________
Web shows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[tikana]

hey Libra

LOL

she asked the question

Tik